Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Here’s a fun hypothetical question I wonder to myself sometimes: If RARE had been acquired by Nintendo rather than Microsoft back in the day like they were hoping for, how many characters do you think they would have in Smash right now? I feel like we’d at least have Banjo, Rash, Joanna Dark, Fulgore and Conker by now. Maybe even all of them as early as Brawl. RARE’s games were among the most beloved and iconic games on the SNES and N64. It’s wild to think about how different Smash could have looked.

Well, Melee was already strapped for time, so other than specific trophies and designs, it wouldn't get more characters. Brawl had to be pushed back as well, so I doubt muuuuuuch more. I would think Banjo-Kazooie, but considering they got in heavily thanks to the ballot, it's iffy if it'd be that soon. It would more heavily depend upon if they continued to get games. The fact they weren't part of Nintendo any longer also adds to said votes, because people wanted them to "come back". So in a sense, the split somewhat helped them.

That said, it's hard to say for the rest. Conker's Bad Fur Day didn't do that well, as cool as it was. Killer Instinct was of note, but kind of died out for a decade. Battletoads had the same issue too. Perfect Dark has very few games to this day. I think the biggest issue is we wouldn't be sure how many new games they'd have gotten in order to make them highly notable and relevant, making them easier to pick. I do think we'd get at least one of them in Brawl, maybe two, but it entirely depends how many new games we got for the GameCube too. As well as things like limitations of the game, etc. Joanna Dark is a bit more realistic than Solid Snake is, so she might've taken longer to get in too. Nowadays, yeah, no issue. But Smash 4 and Ultimate continued to push the envelope on realistic-based violence/weapons that made this a lot easier. So I'd say Smash 4 at the earliest for her.

Fulgore I'd say Brawl at the earliest, but I could see it even taking till Ultimate. Battletoads are very easy to imagine due to their crazy buffoonery, so earliest is Brawl. Hell, even Smash 64 could've made sense(but that game's development wouldn't have fit them in that well. The last 4 characters were shoot-offs of others' programming, after all. In the same way the Melee clones were).

 

[ninjahmos]

Which of these two styles (Battle and Modern) do you think would make a better moveset for Sonic?

I know his games mostly have him use his abilities in his ball form…but this is Smash. We need a little more variety than that.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Here’s a fun hypothetical question I wonder to myself sometimes: If RARE had been acquired by Nintendo rather than Microsoft back in the day like they were hoping for, how many characters do you think they would have in Smash right now? I feel like we’d at least have Banjo, Rash, Joanna Dark, Fulgore and Conker by now. Maybe even all of them as early as Brawl. RARE’s games were among the most beloved and iconic games on the SNES and N64. It’s wild to think about how different Smash could have looked.

I think if there wasn’t any issues or if Nintendo bought them earlier then it’s likely that Rare related stuff such as Banjo would have gotten trophies in Melee.

One unrelated fact is that the Smash Poll that happened before Melee considered Diddy Kong as a Rare related character despite Nintendo owning the character.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Here’s a fun hypothetical question I wonder to myself sometimes: If RARE had been acquired by Nintendo rather than Microsoft back in the day like they were hoping for, how many characters do you think they would have in Smash right now? I feel like we’d at least have Banjo, Rash, Joanna Dark, Fulgore and Conker by now. Maybe even all of them as early as Brawl. RARE’s games were among the most beloved and iconic games on the SNES and N64. It’s wild to think about how different Smash could have looked.

I think having all of them in Brawl is heavily optimistic. Brawl newcomers are already stacked and there was so much competition back then. Assuming Nuts and bolts would have end up being a Wii game, I think Banjo could have made the cut, and maybe either Rash or Fulgore could've made the cut as "retro" pick, but I doubt Conker would have priority at that point. Aside from that maybe Viva pinata would've gotten a stage, but I don't think it would have a character.

Assuming Rare acted exactly the same way under Nintendo and Sea of thieves was a first party Switch game, I think it would get a stage in Smash 6, but even with the game popularity I think the lack of true main character and iconic avatar design (unlike other game like Minecraft's Steve or Dragonborn for example) will hurt them for being playable.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, Brawl is probably a bit optimistic to have gotten all of them. I think we’d at least have had a few by then. I do think they’d all be in by Ultimate though. Conker is a weird case because he’s the most requested RARE character right now but his game was the least successful. I’d be happy with the others and leave Conker out but some people might be bothered by his absence.

For Joanna, you could primarily give her the alien weapons rather than her more realistic firearms. There were a bunch of fun and crazy weapons in that game. I’d imagine her Final Smash would probably be the Farsight, which could one hit KO anyone and can shoot halfway across the stage through walls. It was a pretty OP weapon and the perfect fit for a Finsl Smash attack.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I kinda wish they'd include the Hanafuda cards, at least as Spirits.

How about giving the spirits hanafuda card style backdrops?

Make them into collectable cards

 

[BrawlX10]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but which Assist Trophies do you think might not return? Honestly, I think every AT they have now has a decent chance of returning; I don't think there are any obvious cuts. However, there are a few that might be less certain:

Arcade Bunny, Nikki, Andross, Riki, Yuri, Nightmare, Burrowing Snagret—I could see at least one of these not coming back. Yes, I think Flies & Hand is likely to return.

 

[Will]

How about giving the spirits hanafuda card style backdrops?

Make them into collectable cards

And then add a feature where you have to fight scalpers in Smash battles for your cards

 

[Gengar84]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but which Assist Trophies do you think might not return? Honestly, I think every AT they have now has a decent chance of returning; I don't think there are any obvious cuts. However, there are a few that might be less certain:

Arcade Bunny, Nikki, Andross, Riki, Yuri, Nightmare, Burrowing Snagret—I could see at least one of these not coming back. Yes, I think Flies & Hand is likely to return.

I think Shadow and Zero each have a pretty decent shot at becoming playable characters. If that happens, they almost certainly wouldn’t return as Assist Trophies.

 

[Will]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but which Assist Trophies do you think might not return? Honestly, I think every AT they have now has a decent chance of returning; I don't think there are any obvious cuts. However, there are a few that might be less certain:

Arcade Bunny, Nikki, Andross, Riki, Yuri, Nightmare, Burrowing Snagret—I could see at least one of these not coming back. Yes, I think Flies & Hand is likely to return.

I can see Arcade Bunny and Nikki going. It’s not like they’re doing anything wrong, but I get it.

imo Nightmare is a coin flip, it depends on if Sakurai deems it too intrusive. It would be better if the player who summoned it could see the outlines of other characters.

Burrowing Snaget, Riki, and Andross? Why would they get cut? Especially Andross since he’s been around since Brawl?

 

[fogbadge]

I can see Arcade Bunny and Nikki going. It’s not like they’re doing anything wrong, but I get it.

imo Nightmare is a coin flip, it depends on if Sakurai deems it too intrusive. It would be better if the player who summoned it could see the outlines of other characters.

Burrowing Snaget, Riki, and Andross? Why would they get cut? Especially Andross since he’s been around since Brawl?

since when has sakurai cared about things being intrusive?

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but which Assist Trophies do you think might not return? Honestly, I think every AT they have now has a decent chance of returning; I don't think there are any obvious cuts. However, there are a few that might be less certain:

Arcade Bunny, Nikki, Andross, Riki, Yuri, Nightmare, Burrowing Snagret—I could see at least one of these not coming back. Yes, I think Flies & Hand is likely to return.

Outside of potential characters being fighters, It could also be random since there some assist trophies that got removed for no apparent reason or they got replaced by other characters.

Like how Tingle, Saki, Lakitu, Infantry & Tanks and Kat & Ana got removed despite being in the game since Brawl

 

[Watuna4343]

I have noted several possibilities for the future of Smash Bros., and I'd like you to rate how possible each of them is:

• Regular Sequel: (Similar to Brawl and Smash 4 philosophy, featuring various character cuts and the usual flair.)
• Everyone is Here 2: (It does not cut characters and uses Ultimate very heavily as a base. It looks pretty similar, but it's not a port—think of it as a transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate again.)
• Reboot: (Self-explanatory. This would start with a potentially smaller roster and be completely built from the ground up.)
• Ultimate Deluxe: (A port of Ultimate with a few characters added.)
• Fighter Pass 3: (We don't get a new game or a port on the Switch 2, but we get a Fighter Pass 3.)

From most to least likely:
1) Regular sequel (and by a mile)
2) Reboot* (a soft-ish reboot of some sorts, not a full one obviously. Not impossible, not the most likely given how much time would be spent on reworking vets instead of adding newcomers)
3) Everyone is Here 2 (bringing everyone back isn't impossible actually... it's just that there would be 0 new content since I can't imagine they'd have that much resources to upgrade everyone for the new console AND add new content. Would Nintendo really want to recreate a 1:1 of Ultimate because some people online can't handle that games can have cuts? I really don't think so)
4) Ultimate Deluxe (I've spoken about this before but Smash Bros isn't Mario Kart - and the Switch isn't the Wii U. If Smash 4 didn't get the Deluxe treatment, there is absolutely far less reason and far less profit to come from an Ultimate Deluxe. I'd also like to say in both Everyone is Here 2 and Ultimate Deluxe scenarios that there is an elephant in the room known as backwards compatibility which kinda renders both scenarios even more useless than they already were)
5) Fighter Pass 3 (This one would be such a 'why' moment)

 

[fogbadge]

Outside of potential characters being fighters, It could also be random since there some assist trophies that got removed for no apparent reason or they got replaced by other characters.

Like how Tingle, Saki, Lakitu, Infantry & Tanks and Kat & Ana got removed despite being in the game since Brawl

I kinda miss infantry and tanks

 

[RileyXY1]

I have noted several possibilities for the future of Smash Bros., and I'd like you to rate how possible each of them is:

• Regular Sequel: (Similar to Brawl and Smash 4 philosophy, featuring various character cuts and the usual flair.)
• Everyone is Here 2: (It does not cut characters and uses Ultimate very heavily as a base. It looks pretty similar, but it's not a port—think of it as a transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate again.)
• Reboot: (Self-explanatory. This would start with a potentially smaller roster and be completely built from the ground up.)
• Ultimate Deluxe: (A port of Ultimate with a few characters added.)
• Fighter Pass 3: (We don't get a new game or a port on the Switch 2, but we get a Fighter Pass 3.)

Here's my own take on this:
Regular Sequel: This is by far the most likely option. This is what they've done for every Smash game aside from Ultimate.
EIH2: Basically doing Everyone is Here again, but not have it be a port of Ultimate. I don't see this as a likely option due to EIH already being a strain in Ultimate's development as shown by how little new content was added in Ultimate's base game, but since this isn't a straight up port of Ultimate they can fix some of Ultimate's issues.
Reboot: While a tantalizing idea, the excessive character cuts might put off long-time fans, especially those that have gotten used to Ultimate, and a lot of fans might take issue with a smaller roster unless they go the full on live service route, which I doubt. Overall this is actually what I want to see the most as I want the next game to diverge from Ultimate as much as possible.
Ultimate Deluxe: I find this highly unlikely. First off, unlike the Wii U the Switch was a massive success and Ultimate was one of the Switch's best selling games. Also, Ultimate can be played on the Switch 2 as is and the new entry will cost 70 dollars as opposed to 60. So it's pretty much just getting people to pay more for a game they very likely already have. Plus, Sakurai's not that into ports. After all they used a Melee port as a threat to get him to come back for Brawl.
FP3: This is the least likely option because it just won't be enough to sell Switch 2s. It would have to be done in conjunction with an Ultimate Deluxe, and I already stated my problems with that idea.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Plus, Sakurai's not that into ports. After all they used a Melee port as a threat to get him to come back for Brawl.

While the backup plan of Melee Wii is correct, there is no way you just implied that Iwata threatened someone.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Best part is the Proximity Mine as well as the other ones were not made for the game, but actually part of the movies first. So we have had actual movie content in before.

Going to need actual proof on that as I literally cannot find anything about those specific mines appearing in any film and only the N64 game comes up.

 

[Will]

since when has sakurai cared about things being intrusive?

that’s why i said it depends

 

[Gengar84]

Going to need actual proof on that as I literally cannot find anything about those specific mines appearing in any film and only the N64 game comes up.

Here you go. It’s a comparison of the Facility stage in the game compared to the movie. You can see James Bond place a proximity mine on one of the tanks at 2:10.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

 

[BrawlX10]

I can see Arcade Bunny and Nikki going. It’s not like they’re doing anything wrong, but I get it.

imo Nightmare is a coin flip, it depends on if Sakurai deems it too intrusive. It would be better if the player who summoned it could see the outlines of other characters.

Burrowing Snaget, Riki, and Andross? Why would they get cut? Especially Andross since he’s been around since Brawl?

ATs get cut probably to make room to new ones, it's not that they're doing "anything wrong" necesarily.
Also begin around since Brawl doesn't matter that much, Saki, Infantry and Kat & Ana were cut in Ultimate and they were in Brawl and 4. Also Isaac AT of all people got cut in Smash 4, despite his popularity and Dark Dawn begin 4 years old at the time.
Burrowing Snaget honestly, it's probably the most likely of the 3 as well i could see Pikmin having 2 ATs. StarFox i could see them only having only Krystal next time and Riki i could see them adding a XC2 and XC3 AT instead like Nia or Ethel.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Here you go. It’s a comparison of the Facility stage in the game compared to the movie. You can see James Bond place a proximity mine on one of the tanks at 2:10.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

The designs clearly do not match whatsoever.

The point is that the bombs used in the N64 game were original to the N64 game.

 

[Laniv]

People saying Arcade Bunny and Nikki are likely to get the axe makes me sad, those are my two favorite Assist Trophies

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Here you go. It’s a comparison of the Facility stage in the game compared to the movie. You can see James Bond place a proximity mine on one of the tanks at 2:10.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

There's a few things...

1. The design on the one in the movie and the one in the game are both very different
2. Isn't the one in the movie a time bomb rather than a proximity one? If so, these are clearly two entirely unique kinds of bombs
3. The very concept of a bomb that triggers based on proximity isn't exactly an idea owned or invented by neither the game nor the movie, otherwise there could have been legal issues from Brawl onwards with them making legally distinct versions of the proximity mines

 

[Gengar84]

The designs clearly do not match whatsoever.

The point is that the bombs used in the N64 game were original to the N64 game.

It’s hard for me to clearly see the movie version since it was filmed from the side. The game version may have had a different design but they were made as a reference to that specific scene in the movie.

But yeah, the movie one did function as a time bomb but the scene in the game used the same design as the proximity bombs.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Isn't the one in the movie a time bomb rather than a proximity one? If so, these are clearly two entirely different kinds of bomb

There is a timer-based bomb that is in the N64 game and it was planned for Melee.

....but it still doesn't look anything like the movie.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

There is a timer-based bomb that is in the N64 game and it was planned for Melee.

....but it still doesn't look anything like the movie.

Point is that the only thing that one scene from the movie and the Proximity Mines share is that they're bombs.

And that's too loose of a connection to remotely imply that the Smash item "originates from non-gaming media"

Might as well say the Beam Sword comes from Star Wars while we're at it instead of (likely) being inspired by it

 

[Gengar84]

I am curious why they changed the design for the bomb in the game compared to the movie. That is kind of strange. I’m not sure we ever really get a clear shot of the ones in the movie. The Smash 64 bombs do look a lot like the ones from the GoldenEye game though, even if they’re different from the movie designs.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It’s hard for me to clearly see the movie version since it was filmed from the side. The game version may have had a different design but they were made as a reference to that specific scene in the movie.

But yeah, the movie one did function as a time bomb but the scene in the game used the same design as the proximity bombs.

It doesn't matter if it's a reference.
The fact that the design comes from the game rather than the movie is the key factor here.

 

[Garo]

I do wonder if some of the Assist Trophy cuts happened because they would've overlapped in functionality with newly introduced items. Jill and Drill is a pretty easy comparison to make. Isaac and Gust Bellows might be reaching, but when the golden boy made his comeback in Ultimate the devs made sure he did more than just push people left or right.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But yeah, the movie one did function as a time bomb but the scene in the game used the same design as the proximity bombs.

They are very clearly distinct, even if the movie one is seen from the side.

Movie's is more square in shape and has a knob on the top, which the mine lacks due to, well, being a mine

 

[Gengar84]

It doesn't matter if it's a reference.
The fact that the design comes from the game rather than the movie is the key factor here.

Right, I suppose you’re right about that. Though the game is still an adaptation of a movie so I’d say it counts as “4th party” for that reason.

View attachment 400455View attachment 400456

They are very clearly distinct, even if the movie one is only seen from the side.

Movie's is more square in shape and has a knob on the top, which the mine lacks due to, well, being a mine

Right. I worded that wrong. I meant the game used the same design for the proximity and time based bombs. You’re right that the movie design is different.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Right, I suppose you’re right about that. Though the game is still an adaptation of a movie so I’d say it counts as “4th party” for that reason.

Because you think its design is similar to another bomb used in a movie (when it really isn't), even though the two bombs in question have entirely different purposes?

If you wanna make that kind of argument, the Beam Sword is right there, my guy!

 

[Pupp135]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but which Assist Trophies do you think might not return? Honestly, I think every AT they have now has a decent chance of returning; I don't think there are any obvious cuts. However, there are a few that might be less certain:

Arcade Bunny, Nikki, Andross, Riki, Yuri, Nightmare, Burrowing Snagret—I could see at least one of these not coming back. Yes, I think Flies & Hand is likely to return.

I think there are a few factors to consider here:

• Will the assist trophy receive a new role (primarily focusing on playable status here). In this case, we can see assists like Waluigi, Ashley, Skull Kid, Midna, Shadow, Knuckles, or Isaac no longer being assists.
• Third party negotiations are another thing to consider as we do have third party assists. I won’t open that can of worms given that I normally don’t play with assists, and it probably also hinges on the playable character selection.
• Some may just be a lower priority one reason or another. For the moment, I’m unsure which ones would be a lower priority

 

[Will]

Nikki reminds me that Miiverse stage is forever gone. Never again will we have an actual stage that feeds you ****posts while you fight. Top 5 Stage in Smash history.

 

[Gengar84]

Because you think its design is similar to another bomb used in a movie (when it really isn't), even though the two bombs in question have entirely different purposes?

If you wanna make that kind of argument, the Beam Sword is right there, my guy!

Okay, completely disregard the movie for a second and just look at the GoldenEye game. Smash 64’s motion sensor bomb heavily resembles the one in the GoldenEye game. My argument is that the GoldenEye game is still 4th party. Unless you think Starkiller is eligible for Smash?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Okay, completely disregard the movie for a second and just look at the GoldenEye game. Smash 64’s motion sensor bomb heavily resembles the one in the GoldenEye game.

....That was Golden and I's point this whole time, Gengar... -_-

Granted, it was about the one in US versions of Melee, but it's the same design lmao

 

[Gengar84]

....That was Golden and I's point this whole time, Gengar... -_-

Granted, it was about the one in US versions of Melee, but it's the same design lmao

Yes, I realize that. I’ve been trying to agree with you but I think you’re misunderstanding me lol. I posted the clip to show that the idea for the mine came from the movie but you’re right that they have different designs.

 

[chocolatejr9]

People saying Arcade Bunny and Nikki are likely to get the axe makes me sad, those are my two favorite Assist Trophies

Think of it like this: if the ATs get cut, their chances of being playable go up a little bit.

 

[Will]

Think of it like this: if the ATs get cut, their chances of being playable go up a little bit.

And then there’s Tingle.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

“4th party”

Because you think its design is similar to another bomb used in a movie (when it really isn't), even though the two bombs in question have entirely different purposes?

If you wanna make that kind of argument, the Beam Sword is right there, my guy!

No, because regardless of it being from the N64 game, the game itself is still part of the 007 IP.

It just happens to be specifically from a part that Nintendo had (until Rare was sold) copyright in.
So a bomb's design from a (then) Nintendo game that was original to said (then) Nintendo game.