Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[ethn]

You get out what you put into it. Unfortunately, if you are working hard but not smart, it can take you way longer than someone else who isn't working as hard. Fortunately, there's now tons of tools and resources out there to help you learn and improve smart these days. When I started, I had no one to play, no 20xx, and no YouTube. Identify the most useful tools and resources and apply them as intelligently as possible.

Thanks!!

 

[Acorn]

A couple little questions on a game I just played.

Did Samus CC my shine? video

This is from hitting the trigger late, right? video

Looks like I was wavedashing in place and this tilt hit me. Is the normal range of this move? (or did she extender lmao) video

Full game

Edit: Also how can I maintain pressure and not get hit by up b oos? Does grab out space it?

 

[Bones0]

A couple little questions on a game I just played.

Did Samus CC my shine? video

This is from hitting the trigger late, right? video

Looks like I was wavedashing in place and this tilt hit me. Is the normal range of this move? (or did she extender lmao) video

Full game

Edit: Also how can I maintain pressure and not get hit by up b oos? Does grab out space it?

1. No, it just whiffed (evident from her % not increasing). Falco's shine has very poor range in general, but especially in front. It basically doesn't go past his beak. Assuming you have 20xx, I highly recommend turning on hitboxes and getting familiar with where they are relative to Falco's actual model.

2. Yes. You have to press it before you land, which you can see in that clip by looking for the green blast on the platform caused by the missed tech.

3. Yes, her utilt is fairly disjointed. Again, going into 20xx and turning on hitboxes will really give you a better understanding of the effective ranges of moves.

4. Samus's up-B is also very disjointed, and is actually invincible for several frames on startup. You usually do not want to try to beat it head to head, but rather bait it out and punish her floatiness after the hitboxes disappear. You can maintain pressure just by threatening to attack; you don't always have to have a hitbox out to pressure someone. Vs. floaties like Samus, Peach, etc., you actually give up a lot of pressure as soon as you attack because as long as they don't get hit by it, they may have a guaranteed opening to escape or at least have favorable trade options like up-B/nair OoS. AGAIN, I can't emphasize how important it is to know hitboxes and general frame data (look through all of the top 10 characters' frame data/hitbox threads). You can't even begin to implement strategy if you don't know what their options are. Another cool resource specifically for OoS options is I KneeData.

 

[Espi]

Starting at what % can you pummel without letting the opponent mashout? I know loosely what %'s for getting in 1 and 2 pummels but I would like more specific info for 1, 2 and 3.

 

[Bones0]

Starting at what % can you pummel without letting the opponent mashout? I know loosely what %'s for getting in 1 and 2 pummels but I would like more specific info for 1, 2 and 3.

It depends on how fast they mash.

 

[Shchoo]

It depends on how fast they mash.

I guess someone could do a TAS for mashing, and see if there were absolute thresholds beyond which a perfectly timed pummel is guaranteed? Seems like a lot of work considering that no one is close to mashing as fast as a TAS could do.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Magicalmace]

I don't own a copy of melee since my disc got lost in the multitudes of moves I've gone through, and I want to try and play melee again because the competitive scene has always interested me. How could I get a version of melee to run on my Wii? I'm willing to hack it or anything like that. Any help is greatly appreciated

 

[LozNerd]

So, I want to get into competitive melee as Falco except I don't have melee. I have been practicing on PM best I can and I was wondering, is Dolphin Netplay is completely safe for my computer?

 

[Bones0]

So, I want to get into competitive melee as Falco except I don't have melee. I have been practicing on PM best I can and I was wondering, is Dolphin Netplay is completely safe for my computer?

As long as you set it up properly, definitely. Alternatively, if you can track down a Wii (with GameCube controller ports), you can download Melee onto a USB and play that way. Just a quick search on Ebay showed some for <$50.

 

[zero sum]

i'm thinking about getting into melee more seriously. it won't be a priority -- i still have a lot of things i need to work with in my life, including managing depression, university, and a social life -- but lately i've been thinking about entering tournaments more than once a year since i've heard from people that i improve very quickly and could eventually be really good

i don't live in an amazing region (chicago) but it's still good (e: players are obviously still really good lol) and it seems like there's a fair amount of activity going on here. my question is basically this: i'm aware that it's not only lazy but also distasteful to ask good players how long they've been playing and how i can get good. what are the questions that i should be asking them instead? maybe some like these: do i give up too much space when i'm trying to punish? is my movement too predictable? why is this aerial bad and why do i get caught in this sort of situation so often?

but is asking which questions are acceptable also a symptom of laziness?

 

[-ACE-]

Chicago has good players bruh

 

[BZero]

I have a very general, basic question.
So I used to always play melee (I still do, but not as much as smash 4) and I was planning on getting back into melee. What are the most important techs I should be using while I play? My friends say l-cancelling is most important but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Plunder]

I have a very general, basic question.
So I used to always play melee (I still do, but not as much as smash 4) and I was planning on getting back into melee. What are the most important techs I should be using while I play? My friends say l-cancelling is most important but I'm not 100% sure.

http://smashboards.com/threads/what-tech-should-i-master-while-first-learning-fundamentals.417848/

There was actually a whole thread started for this recently if you want to check it out.

L-cancelling it essential, it has to be near 100% at a competitive level. It can basically double your speed which can allow you to connect more combos you otherwise couldn't and it can save your life when they go to punish your land lag. (Knowing auto-cancel windows is also just as important!)

But right after that I'd vote movement - DD, WD, platforms. It's so important to be fluid on any stage and to have fast ambigious approaches and feints. Movement can take your entire life to master even with just one character; but that's the fun of it, you'll always be learning something new. Just starting out though, you need to know how do stay under or even with your opponent. And when you are above them you need to be able to change that unfavorable positioning quick or use it to bait something and counter.

 

[BZero]

http://smashboards.com/threads/what-tech-should-i-master-while-first-learning-fundamentals.417848/

There was actually a whole thread started for this recently if you want to check it out.

L-cancelling it essential, it has to be near 100% at a competitive level. It can basically double your speed which can allow you to connect more combos you otherwise couldn't and it can save your life when they go to punish your land lag. (Knowing auto-cancel windows is also just as important!)

But right after that I'd vote movement - DD, WD, platforms. It's so important to be fluid on any stage and to have fast ambigious approaches and feints. Movement can take your entire life to master even with just one character; but that's the fun of it, you'll always be learning something new. Just starting out though, you need to know how do stay under or even with your opponent. And when you are above them you need to be able to change that unfavorable positioning quick or use it to bait something and counter.

Thanks a ton! Yeah, I thought movement had to be important as well. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Simmons]

Hey guys, I notice that when I play, my hands seem to shift across my controller throughout a match (the analog stick and buttons will usually end up below the base of my thumbs), which will usually result in me making very basic technical mistakes such as not being able to close out an offstage edgegaurd or ledgedashing.

Any way I can train myself to not do this? Any specific controller grips?

 

[zero sum]

Chicago has good players bruh

yeah you're right i knew we had a lot of good players so i probably shouldn't have said that before looking at the pr lol. and of course we have a lot of good non-PRed players too. excited to actually get into the game soon though

 

[Kyu Puff]

Does anyone know the formula for how knockback (F2 KB Velocity in debug mode) changes over time, with DI factored in? With no DI, overall knockback seems to decrease by 0.051 every frame, and the Y component of knockback can be found by (new knockback*sin(base launch angle)).

I assumed that for trajectory DI, it would be the same except instead of (base launch angle) it would be (base launch angle + TDI modifier), where TDI modifier can be between 0 and +/- 18 degrees, depending on the angle of the control stick relative to the base launch angle. When I calculate it that way, the X and Y components of knockback (observed in debug node) on the first frame of hitstun are not what the formula predicts. I've tried for several different moves/DIs and it's always slightly off...

 

[Sleepy Driz]

I never knew until today that you don't have to hold down when fast falling, you just have to tap down once at any point after you reach the apex of your jump. Does this have applications such as inputting preemptive combo DI after inputting fast fall in case you suddenly find yourself on the defensive?

 

[Bones0]

I never knew until today that you don't have to hold down when fast falling, you just have to tap down once at any point after you reach the apex of your jump. Does this have applications such as inputting preemptive combo DI after inputting fast fall in case you suddenly find yourself on the defensive?

Yes, DIing preemptively when you're doing other actions (not just FFing), is very important. Being able to let go of FF is also important because sometimes you want to do a nair after FFing. If you really want your mind blown, go test FFing multiple times while drifting down. FFs are sort of like a quick burst of speed, but it runs out and you can do another one. Just jump off Fourside as Samus and you can hear the FF inputs go through. It's not super useful since it's so subtle, but it might help some of the floatier characters in niche recovery situations.

 

[Sleepy Driz]

That's super interesting, I'll test it out tomorrow. Is there a timing for how long I have to wait in between FF inputs and is it the same for all characters? Also, any pointers for situations where I can be preemptively DIing for a potential combo that comes up often? I thought it feels like I'm usually using the control stick for something else but I'm sure now that I think about it that there are opportunities to hold away in between movements or something just in case, I'm just having trouble thinking of them.

 

[tauKhan]

That's super interesting, I'll test it out tomorrow. Is there a timing for how long I have to wait in between FF inputs and is it the same for all characters?

It only applies to most double jumps: at the time you would transition from double jump animation to normal fall animation, your fast fall is "cancelled" and you revert to your normal max fall speed instead. You can't ff multiple times unless one gets cancelled this way. So basically you can ff twice by double jumping, ff at the apex of the dj and then ff again after a short while.

 

[Bones0]

Idk what I was thinking of. I could have sworn I read once that inputting multiple FFs makes you go faster, but I can't replicate it. I must have misremembered the DJ thing. My B.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Idk what I was thinking of. I could have sworn I read once that inputting multiple FFs makes you go faster, but I can't replicate it. I must have misremembered the DJ thing. My B.

I remember reading something about fast falling after each laser in a SHDL with Fox which was faster than only inputting one fast fall or something like that

 

[tauKhan]

Oh yeah forgot that some specials reset the falling state multiple times. IIRC lasers do it 3 times, so in TAS conditions it's fastest to ff laser ffx3 at specific frames.

 

[Bones0]

Oh yeah forgot that some specials reset the falling state multiple times. IIRC lasers do it 3 times, so in TAS conditions it's fastest to ff laser ffx3 at specific frames.

Do you know if this is the case with Phantasm or up-B? I'm wondering if it'd ever be worthwhile to use multiple FFs to land a bit quicker after doing a high recovery so I can get my shield up.

 

[tauKhan]

I don't think so, but it's not impossible either, have to check it sometime. Anyway it would only save a few frames at maximum with spacies since their terminal fall speed is very high and ff acceleration low.

 

[BRUJO~]

What in melee's coding makes different lengths for wavelanding and wavedashing? for example, Ganon's waveland covers much more ground than his wavedash, but it seems like they should be the same distance since they both transfer the movement of an airdodge into grounded movement. Does it have something to do with fall speed adding or subtracting momentum?

 

[Plunder]

I could be wrong, but I've heard a completely flat angle air dodge landing is possible with wavelanding, but not with wavedashing. That would account for more horizontal velocity transferred to a waveland. Seems to also be a product of how the character's bone or hurtboxes align with the ground before air-dodge land. I see Bizz often double jump before wave landing, I think this is not only for faster height but it improves wavelanding because of how the body contorts in relation.

Ganon's waveland actually isn't that much farther than his wavedash though, I think it's just much easier to get close to perfect waveland than it is to perfect wavedash most of the time. So, it seems like it's further more often (not to mention there isn't the 7 frame start up lag so it feels faster too).


Here's an old gif of the comparison -

 

[Bones0]

Unless I'm misremembering, vertical momentum does play a role in determining how far you slide. If you fast fall into a waveland, you will go further, but I don't think rising momentum has the same effect. I can't find any sources for this, unfortunately.

 

[SAUS]

i'm thinking about getting into melee more seriously. it won't be a priority -- i still have a lot of things i need to work with in my life, including managing depression, university, and a social life -- but lately i've been thinking about entering tournaments more than once a year since i've heard from people that i improve very quickly and could eventually be really good

i don't live in an amazing region (chicago) but it's still good (e: players are obviously still really good lol) and it seems like there's a fair amount of activity going on here. my question is basically this: i'm aware that it's not only lazy but also distasteful to ask good players how long they've been playing and how i can get good. what are the questions that i should be asking them instead? maybe some like these: do i give up too much space when i'm trying to punish? is my movement too predictable? why is this aerial bad and why do i get caught in this sort of situation so often?

but is asking which questions are acceptable also a symptom of laziness?

The difficulty I have when people ask me about stuff like this is that it is too general. I find myself completely speechless when people ask for advice. I've come to realise it's because I don't think about the game that way. In order to explain my understanding of melee would take waaay too long and would probably still not even make its way to the other person properly, so I either tell them some general information that is pretty much useless or tell them I have nothing immediately to say.

However, if I were to watch a replay, I could point out all of the points where a better decision could be made or where their opponent has taken advantage of their predictability.

In the end, your most useful feedback will probably come from posting recorded matches on this site or in your local facebook group and asking for criticisms / tips.

----------------------------------------------------------

To the waveland / wavedash thing, I don't think your air speed transfers into your waveland. A perfect waveland is with a completely horizontal angle. I think the reason it works is because it is an aerial interrupt. Starting the air dodge causes your ECB (environment collision box - the hitbox that interacts with the stage) to hit the ground, so you land immediately with 100% sideways airdodge momentum (ie none wasted up or down). I assume it is not possible off of a regular ground jump due to how the ECB is after jump squat. It may vary depending on character to character as well. I don't know all the specifics of ECBs from all the characters.

 

[tauKhan]

Unless I'm misremembering, vertical momentum does play a role in determining how far you slide. If you fast fall into a waveland, you will go further, but I don't think rising momentum has the same effect. I can't find any sources for this, unfortunately.

That's impossible, since the airdodge sets your velocity to a fixed value to the direction you choose.

 

[Bones0]

That's impossible, since the airdodge sets your velocity to a fixed value to the direction you choose.

When people miss techs and accidentally airdodge, isn't it possible for the latent momentum to carry them further offstage? I feel like if airdodging canceled your velocity you could use it after bouncing off a platform to live at ridiculous percents.

 

[Arbour Lake]

I'm using the 20XX ISO on my dolphin, while I'm practising shield pressure on fox lets say, when I do DPad+L+DPad Down (Toggle Infinite Shield) The fox always does a shine and goes back to shield
How do I get fox to just stay in shield
When I use 20XX on my hacked Wii, the game just ultimately crashes. (I'm using dios mios to play)

 

[Bones0]

I'm using the 20XX ISO on my dolphin, while I'm practising shield pressure on fox lets say, when I do DPad+L+DPad Down (Toggle Infinite Shield) The fox always does a shine and goes back to shield
How do I get fox to just stay in shield
When I use 20XX on my hacked Wii, the game just ultimately crashes. (I'm using dios mios to play)

Well it sounds like you're inputting it wrong just from the way you typed it. All you have to do is hold down a trigger/button then press the the D-pad direction once. Assuming you have the same version of 20xx as me, these codes should work:

 

[tauKhan]

When people miss techs and accidentally airdodge, isn't it possible for the latent momentum to carry them further offstage? I feel like if airdodging canceled your velocity you could use it after bouncing off a platform to live at ridiculous percents.

I was initially going to write something like "airdodge sets your normal velocity to a fixed value", but it sounded silly and I didn't find a good way to briefly express the difference between kb velocity and normal velocity (can't think of a better term). Thus I just decided that kb velocity is a special case and can be ignored in this context for the sake of readability, and the fact that it's not relevant to the topic at hand. I admit it was probably a mistake, but I just kind of assumed it's known that any actions you choose only affect your normal velocity. Except V-cancelling now of course.

But of course you're right, airdodge doesn't alter your kb velocity at all, it only changes your normal velocity. But fall speed is part of your normal velocity and it gets overwritten when you airdodge.

 

[Arbour Lake]

Well it sounds like you're inputting it wrong just from the way you typed it. All you have to do is hold down a trigger/button then press the the D-pad direction once. Assuming you have the same version of 20xx as me, these codes should work:

I'm on 3.0.2, I looked at this and did P2 Hold Shield Command, ofc. It didn't work xD. If I remember correctly it made fox Nair Shine.

 

[Sleepy Driz]

If you're hanging on the ledge and trying to time a normal get up/roll/attack to ledge hog someone, on what frame after inputting the get up/roll/attack will you gain invincibility?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Melee is being added to a local tournament series that I help run, so I want to make sure that we have a solid ruleset. Does this look okay? (Is there a more appropriate thread for me to post this in?)

http://docs.google.com/document/d/1B8G-bChAMLr2xsPNjP13aZIG4mLD704RAlUNh378xEo

(Event link, which has some more general tournament rules for every game: http://www.facebook.com/events/485994904936207/)

It's close to the Apex 2015 ruleset, with some minor edits. The only specific feedback I've gotten so far is that Kongo Jungle can probably be struck from the Doubles stage list because it's an anachronism that nobody actually wants to play but keeps showing up on stage lists because of tradition at this point. Any advice, on that or anything else?

 

[Bones0]

If you're hanging on the ledge and trying to time a normal get up/roll/attack to ledge hog someone, on what frame after inputting the get up/roll/attack will you gain invincibility?

If you check the character forums, they each have a thread with all the frame data and hitboxes, including ledge options. All of their invul starts on the first frame, but how long they last varies. I would also recommend checking out the Frame Melee app for very easy access to this info.

Melee is being added to a local tournament series that I help run, so I want to make sure that we have a solid ruleset. Does this look okay? (Is there a more appropriate thread for me to post this in?)

http://docs.google.com/document/d/1B8G-bChAMLr2xsPNjP13aZIG4mLD704RAlUNh378xEo

(Event link, which has some more general tournament rules for every game: http://www.facebook.com/events/485994904936207/)

It's close to the Apex 2015 ruleset, with some minor edits. The only specific feedback I've gotten so far is that Kongo Jungle can probably be struck from the Doubles stage list because it's an anachronism that nobody actually wants to play but keeps showing up on stage lists because of tradition at this point. Any advice, on that or anything else?

Looks perfect. As far as KJ64 goes, yeah, it rarely gets picked, but I'm not sure that's a legitimate reason to remove it. It's really just up to your personal preference. Attendees not wanting it legal can be a tempting reason to remove it, but make sure you're not dealing with a vocal minority. Too often I've seen TOs change rules because of a few complaints (especially top players), and it hurt the tournament overall. A great example is FC, which has historically done round robin top 8, but Leffen and other top players complained and they instead did a regular bracket. Whether a bracket is more fair or w/e is debatable, but the point is they sacrificed the spirit of their tournament to appease players who knew how it was planned on being run going into it.