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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Dr Peepee

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Well, the main goal in the matchup is to catch Fox at close range with you in control(so him shielding/being hit by a laser/etc), but that's hard to get into. Basically, you're going to have to adjust a lot since Fox can change up where he is and how he moves very well and try to eventually box him in when he approaches or catch him off guard in some way that makes him freeze up and gives you the chance to pressure him.

It's not really easy just hunting Fox down most of the time.....
 

Dr Peepee

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hey, i have no why i haven't subbed to this thread yet even though i subbed to almost every other character advice thread on here, and i'm a falco main >_<. *subbed*


btw, really need help with the falco ditto matchup, especially on Dreamland and Yoshi's Island.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaFMkfRZRnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Pubg9MFMc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5Y6GtYfLPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZUDjjYVEOk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktqgvpLKhyg


and the sheik matchup too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDTv-A0yo_0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb1ASlJ5PHg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYs7nmsLSGY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_1gg3VmqBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeSnehKZI-Y

some specific questions are, how do i combo falco on those stages? what moves to use to over prioritize falco's approaches? How do i combo shiek? Do's and don't vs falco/sheik?
Well, basically I can tell you some about how to combo on platforms, but I really can't tell you an easy "how to combo" because there are lots of different situations you could combo in.

Comboing Falco on platformed stages like DL and YS, it helps to get shine wavelands onto the platform and follow DI. Like, you shine the other Falco off of the ground(or uptilt him), then go and shine waveland, and then, if he DI'd in around 50%, you could Dair him onto a platform and Fsmash his tech or Dsmash his missed tech(or try to keep it going by uptilting/shining his defensive maneuver).

Comboing Sheik is weird. Dair shine is good until about 35-40% I think......and then you have to switch to uptilts to keep comboing.


Other than that, I guess my general critique might give you some good "dos and don'ts).

I'm doing the first match of both the Falco ditto(match 2) and vs Sheik(match 12) matches. Falco first.

Learn to react to forward Bs. If you see a Falco walljumping, then get ready for a forward B to the edge or at you. Utilt them if they come at you, and Dsmash them if they go for the edge. Try not to just run at the other Falco. You need to have a plan like laser to grab or fake laser or delayed aerial or something instead of hoping they would get scared and roll or put up their shield so you could grab them. Try not to always waveshine away after you approach. Mix in shine grabs, maybe another delayed/retreating aerial, or a double shine to keep the other Falco guessing.

It's better to Fsmash the slow edge getups(faster and cools down more). After you grabbed the edge and the opponent is firebird'ing, just use a DJ Dair or Bair to kill them. Try to avoid full hopping if possible. When you need to hit the opponent on the top platform faster and they're about 50%+, Bair is a better option than shine because it hits them away and you don't need most of your body there before you can hit them. Work on shining OOS to avoid pressure. Those FH Nairs onto a platform are pretty slow and easy to punish, so work on lasering them from a side platform or using Bair walls in order to control your space/pressrue them better.



And now for Sheik.....

You did FH Bairs when Sheik wasn't even close to your Bair range. Shei kwas able to get under you and hit you very easily, which is a bad thing. Don't ledgehop double laser if Sheik, or anyone really, is right beside the edge or you'll get hit. Make sure you pick a firebird angle that will allow you to make it to the edge. That has to be established before you can worry about tricking Sheik. Follow Uthrows up at lower percents with Uairs. Punish Sheik's up-B landing lag at higher percents with Fsmash or Dsmash(or maybe Dair to Fsmash....). Try to regrab the edge once or twice after you make it there because if you get up right after you grab the edge then you'll be easy to punish(get up at different times basically).
 

AnDaLe

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oh alright thanks! and i totally forgot to put whose color was whose for the falco dittos >_<

btw, whats the timing on Shining OOS during sheild pressure?
 

Dr Peepee

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I used the tag to figure it out lol.

The timing really depends on how long your shield is stunned for, so I can't really help with that.

If you mean just jump then shine, well just try to get from jump to shine asap and see what that does. It's more about practice than anything I think.

....or maybe I just can't explain it.
 

AnDaLe

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oh alright, well, I'm pretty fast with that, but everytime I try it, i just get shined. Can their sheild pressure be too perfect so that i can't do that?
 

Dr Peepee

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If it's another Falco you're referring to, then yeah they could just be delaying their aerial to purposefully keep your shine OOS from coming out in time.

If they aren't delaying their aerial then you're too slow.
 

AnDaLe

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alright, i wasn't sure if that was possible (delaying the aerial), now i know why i get shined when i try doing it >_<. Any more tips on JumpingOOS during shield pressure? Like do u hold shield when pressing jump, like just in case of hit stun or something of that sort?
 

Dr Peepee

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I suppose you could angle your shield 45 degrees down and away so that you could still try to shine OOS but if not you would at least be DI'ing away from the combo.
 

Dr Peepee

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You shot lasers when Puff was above eye level so they didn't do any good. You should have take that time to get to the middle because closing the gap on Puff and taking stage control is better than camping and getting no damage or control.

If you're gonna Bthrow Puff, then you need to make sure any sort of FH follow-up will definitely hit or you're in huge trouble.

You should have punished some recovery mistakes. You seemed too afraid to go to the edge when she aerial'd close or punish puff's airdodge at times.

Defensively Dair'ing doesn't do much unless Puff is shielding. I guess it's a decent trade if you can get it off though.

You need to Bair more when Puff gets closer....that, or uptilt when she tries to get behind you when you were lasering.

I think double shining in general is bad vs puff because you don't want to give her long to react to your pressure, but I think it's okay very sparingly.

Try not to CC shine Puff's aerials. CC Utilt or jab or upsmash would be pretty ****.

I felt weird about your timings on your Dairs. Sometimes they looked good but were off and sometimes they looked bad and got you hits. I don't know but at the end it got you rested trying to do them from too high up so I guess there's something.


A couple of these things I said were stylistic I suppose, but I think overall it's solid advice.

Hope that helps!
 

FoxLisk

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Well I know I'm not as good as Dr.PP but here's a few things I noticed until he gets to it:
edit: he posted as I was typing this O.o

1) there were a few technical errors that I assume you don't want to be bothered about; I'll enumerate if you want.

2) your lasering was inconsistent. For about the first stock it was very good, but you were doing less effective things for a lot of th elater stocks. In my experience, you almost never want to shoot FH or DJ lasers against puff, because they jsut dont do you much good. If she's all the way across screen and you're shooting them to rack up damage or force her to approach is about the only time I find them useful.
The thing is, if puff is at the height where a FH or DJ laser would hit her, and relatively closs, then it's not the best option. You have her at the height where she can't effectively backair or fair or nair you, because she's above your head. Jumping up with a laser puts you at the height where she can hit you with her best aerials all just to land one or two lasers. What you can do is relocate underneath her if you dont like hwere you are on stage, or jump up and bair (or nair if you cant turn around in time, it doesnt work as well but it's pretty decent). utilting works if she's lowish, too.
Actually, more than getting hits off on you when you used FH or DJ lasers, Darc was running under them and closing distance, which isn't usually good to let her do on her terms.
You also approach her sometimes when lasers would be safer... that's more a personal choice, thing, though. if she's in her shield, I usually just keep lasering to annoy her and throw her off her game, but you can approach it, too, since she's not very good OoS

3) Obviously your rest punish was weak. In that situation, dair -> more dairs would have worked pretty well, or just a charged smash.

4) I don't think I saw you utilt at all! Utilt ***** puff's moveset and lets you combo in a way shine doesn't, since it links to dairs and stuff at low-mid %s. If you're in a positionw here you can either shine or utilt, you usually want to utilt.
0:12 was a good time to utilt.

Other than those few matchup knowledge-based things, I think you were actually playing very well. I think especially your first stock was very well played, and obviously your last stock was cut short by you missing a DI, but you were still in it up until that.
 

X1-12

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by the way guys as far as punishing rests goes, its a cool trick to throw off thier DI if you stand right on them when you F-smash, they will allways go straight up, or slightly behind you and that totally throws their DI, and if they try to double-stick Tech it won't work either
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to

Yes! it's often difficult for me to catch my own bad habits. thanks =D


mogwai - i want more falco dittos :chuckle:
yea... next week I'm gonna be runnin' it back in smash, so let's play sometime.

it knocks up more percentage i mean, im assuming he not trying to kill the jiggz just rack up percent
well, I mean, if you're talking about playing it safe and stuff, I dunno, maybe, but it's pretty hard to combo Jiggs out of a throw and just laser + throw is less damage than a smash. I mean, if you're confident in your read or are just trying to kill Jiggs, a smash attack is probably smarter.
 

AnDaLe

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okay seriously, I've been thinking about it. where did PeePee come from lmao? Never heard of him till like 6-10 months ago, and he literally came out of no where. Soo knowledgable, were he/you placing high at tournaments secretly till 09 O.o. but yea, as of now, who would be the best falco out (not including manger).
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
Best players of a particular character discussions get ugly and stupid, so please don't go there. Look at large tourney results and watch videos and decide for yourself.

PP was a local monster for a long time before we knew how good he was. Since he's started traveling, people have become more aware of how good he is.
 

Dr Peepee

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okay seriously, I've been thinking about it. where did PeePee come from lmao? Never heard of him till like 6-10 months ago, and he literally came out of no where. Soo knowledgable, were he/you placing high at tournaments secretly till 09 O.o. but yea, as of now, who would be the best falco out (not including manger).
NC doesn't really have anyone credible to hype me up, so I just had to go out and prove myself haha. I actually don't even think I was worth knowing about until I placed pretty well at Tipped Off 4 in January 09(my first regional anyway). That was actually the first time I beat LoZR and became a real "local monster" as Mogwai put it, but now I'm just getting into the story too much lol.

Best Falco discussions get really messy, and my opinion on them changes too much lol. I just know it's definitely not me.
 

AnDaLe

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Oh, didn't know that "best falco" discussions get out of hand. I've asked other ppl about the "best" w/e but it didn't seem to bother. Well, whos like the top five falcos (cept mango) in no order? Peepee being humble much lol? tbo, i thought PeePee, Zhu, Shizwiz, Lambchops tied for best falco right under Mango.
 

Dr Peepee

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A big "best Falco" discussion would probably get a little nasty. People coming in and saying "so and so said this" or region bias or fanboyism is what contributes to most of the problems. That, and a lot of it is just opinion I guess lol.

Since Chops is retired(and no Mango lol), top 5 Falcos is kinda weird.....

Shiz, Zhu, Calle W, maybe Aldwyn from Europe?, me I guess.

Blunted Object is up there as well.

I don't see it as humble so much as realistic. I think my playstyle is pretty underdeveloped. I also just make scrub decisions a lot.
 

AnDaLe

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Oh lambchops is retired T.T, i never knew. He's been my favorite falco, since.....the first time i saw a vid of him playing falco dittos. His laser game was soo good. oh, and yea, I figured as much "Shiz, Zhu, Calle W, maybe Aldwyn". I was thinking that too for a sec, but I didn't know Calle W played Falco. I remember blunted object from somewhere, but don't really know much.

Is lambchops seriously retired? I haven't even got to see him play live. =(
 

Dr Peepee

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He's at least taking a break.

His Falco was doing very good things. He was very efficient and I like watching how he put stuff together.
 

Doomblaze

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Where the hell did mango go? I know he got wombo comboed by some cops and after that he disappeared, ive only seen him on AIM like twice in the last few months.

Never do top five discussions please, top 10 is alright as long as its in no particular order, but its so opinionated that a flame war always starts

Shiz is still the best though :chuckle:
 

JPOBS

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its pretty easy to hit her after down throw, but yea if there is any possibility of killing her i would def charge fsmash
um...downthrow is pretty terrible, all they hae to do is spam jump and DI up and they float away and you can hit her.

the best thing to do if you wanna build damage when a fsmash wont kill is Dair->dair-> techchase dair her. this works best at mid-ish percents where the dair spikes her into the floor and she pops up.

or if you're not confident you can get the techchase (even though its really easy cuz her tech blows) or if she at super low and wont bounce off the ground from a dair, then Dair->Grab->upthrow->aerial
 

KirbyKaze

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well, I mean, if you're talking about playing it safe and stuff, I dunno, maybe, but it's pretty hard to combo Jiggs out of a throw and just laser + throw is less damage than a smash. I mean, if you're confident in your read or are just trying to kill Jiggs, a smash attack is probably smarter.
Eggm back in the day U-throw Uaired Puffs all day with Falco. PP and Shiz (when Shiz bothered to pick Falco vs Puff) hit U-throw --> bull**** aerial a lot with Falco on Puff.

Until Puffs learn what DI is, I say abuse the throw.
 

Ballistics

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um...downthrow is pretty terrible, all they hae to do is spam jump and DI up and they float away and you can hit her.

the best thing to do if you wanna build damage when a fsmash wont kill is Dair->dair-> techchase dair her. this works best at mid-ish percents where the dair spikes her into the floor and she pops up.

or if you're not confident you can get the techchase (even though its really easy cuz her tech blows) or if she at super low and wont bounce off the ground from a dair, then Dair->Grab->upthrow->aerial

well spoken

Id much rather always throw puff down tho
 

JPOBS

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i find people in general fail at DI vs falco and my theory is because falco's grab blows, and techincally, you can never link throw into anything.

but the funny thing is that, because all his throws blow, they can never predict which way you will throw them, because no one way is ever the best option except maybe near the ledge.

But its funny cuz you ALWAYS know which way fox/falcon/marth/sheik etc will throw cuz they throw based on percents and other garunteed ish and you can get away with experience and good DI.
Falco is just mad mindgames.
 
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