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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

JPOBS

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sheild grab takes 7 frames and shine oos comes out on frame 5 iirc

but to answer your question directly, other than being a better combo starter, shine oos is like a thousand times safer and almost completely unpunishable. Also, it hits behind as well, i dont know if falcos sheild grab lands behind his back.

you can jump out of the shine and waveland to a platform above, or DJ away and come down with lasers to prevent them from chasing you, plus its fast as hell.
if someone successfully baits a sheild grabs from you, you will get *****. if they bait a shine OOS, you can just gtfo of there
 

AvengerAngel

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Uhm yeah, I didn't think about shinewavelands on platform stages. I suppose if you get tricked into shining OOS and you're on FD you'll get ***** as well tho

But shine OOS comes out on frame 6, I'm sure of this. Falco's still grounded on frame 5
 

Melomaniacal

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I suck at timing shine OoS. Is there any kind of method to it? Should I tilt my shield down so I can just... spam B and shine when my shield drops?
...or do you JC shine?
 

AvengerAngel

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I suck at timing shine OoS. Is there any kind of method to it? Should I tilt my shield down so I can just... spam B and shine when my shield drops?
...or do you JC shine?
Lulz that's not a good idea. It takes 15 frames for Falco to release his shield x)
You have to jump out of the shield

Sigh, I suck at timing it too. I usually end up doing a spot dodge, probably because I'm trying to jump out during the shield stun, or perhaps because I'm smashing the stick down before Falco has left the ground. The sad thing is... there's no way to practice it on your own. You need to play with someone (possibly with good tech skills and spacing) to learn how to do it x(
 

Aldwyn McCloud

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Lulz that's not a good idea. It takes 15 frames for Falco to release his shield x)
You have to jump out of the shield

Sigh, I suck at timing it too. I usually end up doing a spot dodge, probably because I'm trying to jump out during the shield stun, or perhaps because I'm smashing the stick down before Falco has left the ground. The sad thing is... there's no way to practice it on your own. You need to play with someone (possibly with good tech skills and spacing) to learn how to do it x(
Actually part of shield shining can be learned on your own: the jumping-shining timing. You'll notice if you don't do it perfect Falco won't stay on the ground while shining but be slightly airborne. The amount of time that lies between the moment you jump and the moment you shine is always the same, regardless of you being alone or playing with someone, so that can be learned in training mode too. What changes when playing against a real opponent that's pillaring you is the timing of your jump, becuase your shield is probably getting a lot of stun from your opponent's attacks. As a result, you'll have to wait for the right moment to jump and yeah, that needs a lot of training. However having mastered the shine timing on your own will result in you being able to do perfect shield shine, which I myself can't actually do.
 

Mogwai

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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
tbh, you mostly looked pretty good there. your SD on your 3rd stock in the first game wasn't necessarily a bad idea, you just failed to execute it (wouldn't have worked anyway, but it's good to throw ballsy **** like that out there every once in awhile to get cheap kills). I also noticed that on a lot of edgeguards where you should have just been holding the ledge and then doing this (the dair -> dair thing):

you were instead doing early ledge hop dairs. If you've put shiek in a position where she needs to up B, you gotta just take the ledge and then punish her laggy *** recovery.
 

FoxLisk

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****. kira is a little inconsistent but sometimes his spacing is just amazing.

anyway i thought you played really well. you let yourself get pushed to the edge sometimes and there were a few openings you squandered whether through nerves or slight technical errors. nothing really big, though that I could see.

edit: unrelated but get at that '07 shinegrab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NngGrqTnifM#t=1m28s
 

Aldwyn McCloud

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I want to get good at the Sheik MU. Here is a set of me vs Kira's Sheik. (I'd REALLY appreciate PP, Mogwai, Aldwyn advice but of course everybody helps ;))

Match 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnYwnCWRvRM

Match 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ZBbyVAlgw
Amsah said I'm good at the Sheik MU but I'm not exactly a Sheik slayer. Nevertheless, I'll try to help. Since this is a general advice thread, I'll just write here my guidelines on the match up although you seem to know how to play it already. But first, here is the specific advice for you. You have a quite fluid gameplay and space very well; apart from very general errors like you not punishing your opponent or SDing too often, the thing I noticed the most is you not using Utilts, Dairs and lasers enough. Lasers should not be abused, but I think you could have used them just a little bit more. As for Dairs and Utilts, they own Sheik quite a lot if used in the right moments. Dair is good if you're landing on her shield with a full jump and she tries to Nair oos (but it's very bad for spacing, so use it wisely). Utilt overpriorities every single one of Sheik's aerial (cept for specific situations), so use it whenever she's airborne and close enough to you. Don't use it if Sheik's on the groung though. Also, you're not using grabs at all. I know they're not good for comboes and Sheik can beat them with Nair oos but they play an important role in the psycological part of this match up (and game in general). Dash attacks can beat Sheik's bair if used with the right timing. Your hitbox goes right between her legs giving her the cun*punt she deserves lol. It's a very useful option when trying to hitting the back of a landing Sheik.

These instead are my general views on the match up:

1) Falco can land a quite annoying amount of fire on sheik thanks to his gun. Lasers nowadays can't be used effectively to camp, but if used the right way will be a good option to slow down sheik/temporarily force her in shield.

2) If you know how to do it, Falco can combo Sheik pretty well however no combo will usually result in Falco killing her.

3) Falco can generally throw out aerials/moves at a faster rate than sheik.

4) Shine is good but Sheik will often outrange it, reducing its effective usefulness unless you learned to shine every single move of hers.

5) Sheik can edgeguard Falco well on any %. Falco can edgeguard Sheik decently at high %. Sheik has got the advantage here.

6) If Falco has got something like 30-40% already, Sheik can combo AND kill him most of the time. Watch Amsah VS Any Falco if you want more information on it, since this is a Falco guide I will not cover Sheik's comboing/gimp options nor the DI involved on your part. Enough guides have been written on it already and DI doesn't do **** anyway lol.

7) In some moments Falco will have the projectile advantage as his gun is more versatile, but on the long run Sheik can outcamp him. Expecially nowasays, where many Sheiks are mastering powershield and specific needle patterns to outcamp Falco.

Overall Sheik wins the match up although in the past it was common opinion that Falco had the advantage. I'm also prone to think the match up will keep getting worse for Falco until someone learns how to shine all of sheik's moves.

The main problem is that Sheik's moveset is made of moves with strange hitboxes, priorities and general high range. That, combined with Sheik's weird silhouette makes it hard to land the first hit on her. I'm convinced that if the Sheik is good enough, it will just be IMPOSSIBLE for Falco to break in. Sheik will just win every single clash. I admit I might be exaggerating this but the main point is still the same: hitting her depends mostly on her doing a mistake.

If you stay back and camp, Sheik will outcamp you.

If you stay back and don't camp, Sheik will slowly close your space and then start approaching with careful spacing. That will result in Falco getting owned.

If you approach, Sheik will counter your approachs (mostly with Nair oss) and combo from there.

Sheik has appearent control over the whole match. For this reason, you can't rely on character weaknesses that much in this match up: all you can capitalize on are your opponent's mistakes.

Inducing Sheik in scr€wing up involves continously switching your patterns. If she expects you to approach, you have to wait a little bit and throw out a few lasers until she puts her guard down and so on. Psicology, experience and knowledge of your opponent play a d4mn big role here.

When trying to induce mistakes on Sheik's part, Falco's overall superior speed (see point 3) helps him doing so, which is why the disadvantage on Falco's part is slight and not impossible to overcome. Also, as I mentioned Falco's lasers can't be used to effectively camp throughout all the match (like Hiko used to do in 2006) but are effective if used wisely (unless you're playing a powershield beast). One single laser catching Sheik while she's jumping oos is more effective than 2344234 fired at her from distance with no specific timing.

If by luck or by strategy you manage to break in, comboing her involves using mostly Shines, Dairs and Utilts. I won't go deep in how to combo her, just watch matches of good Falcos VS Sheik or combo videos. Depending on DI and other factors you will usually land a quite good amount of damage but not kill her. As a result, your objective should be knocking her off stage at that point. Most of Falco kills will come from edgeguards (or bad DIs, which depend on your opponent and can't therefore be relied on effectively). Edgeguarding Sheik involves grabbing the edge, forcing her to get back on stage and capitalizing on her Up B lag, killing her with Dtilt. If Sheik's % isn't high enough, try using Bair and Dsmash to knock her off stage again and repeat the process.

Needless to say, the more you stay away from edges the better it is. This however should not result in you camping in the middle of the stage all the time.

Sheik doesn't have complete control of the match up. On low % she is very vulnerable to Crouch cancel and the only moves she can make up for it are Dsmash and grab on the ground, Fair and Nair in the air. Every single one of her aerial moves can be outprioritized by Falco's Utilt (cept for specific situations involving Sheik being below you). Capitalize on that like a ***** without questioning yourself about your honor. Knowledge of specific timings and hitbox can also result in Falco weirdly outprioritizing some of Sheik moves. With experience you'll start learning on your own in which situations you can find openings.

These are some videos of me playing VS Amsah and Ice (best in Germany, very good Sheik player, at least as good as I am):

VS Amsah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkHdiGcXc_U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4_UW5zjdXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T_auot_SfA

VS Ice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_sfav_VfCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnUyAku_DQQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksw9rEgsx7s

there also are other videos but they might be outdated, these are the most recent ones.
 

Little England

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Thanks for the responses guys! :D Very good advice all around!

@Mogwai I'll have to remember that dair to dair next time. Its too good!
@Foxlisk Kira is EXTREMELY patient, so yeah that kinda got me nervous. I'll work on it though ;)
@Aldwyn Hella good advice! I really should abuse that utilt and grab Sheik more. Thanks for all the advice and the vids!

edit: Aldwyn, you and Ice are soooooo good! You guys should've came to Pound 4...you guys would've tapped.
 

#HBC | Mac

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how did you learn to get over tournament anxiety?

sometimes it seems like all my techskill/control over falco just disappears when i'm in tournament. I'm too afraid to take any risks becuz i don't think i'll be able to execute certain things correctly.(I get afraid of doing stuff like jump off ledge, jump back double laser for edgeguarding, and even wavedashing off the edge to grab the ledge.)

I practice techskill like alll the time and it's generally pretty **** good when i play in friendlies at a smashfest but when i play in tourney it goes down the drain.

iono anyone have good advice for this? I'm assuming i just need more experience
 

AvengerAngel

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Sigh, same here. Anytime I suicide I just try to relax and keep in mind that even Zhu or Chops suicide sometimes xP

I've been trying to practice comboing on Marf and Peach on FD for days recently, and it seems like I can't get a legit combo unless they're at high %. Am I doing something wrong? If I start comboing Marf at like 0-10% with a Nair/Dair > shine > Dair > Utilt/Shine, either the second Dair or the Utilt won't connect ;_;
I dunno, maybe I can't get it to work without c-stick x(
 

AvengerAngel

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strong dair -> shine -> wavedash -> strong dair -> shine -> wavedash -> weak dair -> utilt -> profit is my bread and butter vs. Marth on FD. DON'T DO PRACTICE MODE :p. Learn to love thy c-stick.
I DO love my c-stick <333
But there's no way I can be sure if the combo is well done in Vs. mode, especially if I'm playing with CPUs xP

I think the problem might be on the jump timing. Am I supposed to do a full jump and at like mid-height perform the mid-air jump, to be over Marth's head and fastfall way before I hit him with the Dair? Or an instant double jump with a slight delayed Dair should do the trick? :O
I dunno if this makes sense, lulz
 

SmashMac

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how did you learn to get over tournament anxiety?

sometimes it seems like all my techskill/control over falco just disappears when i'm in tournament. I'm too afraid to take any risks becuz i don't think i'll be able to execute certain things correctly.(I get afraid of doing stuff like jump off ledge, jump back double laser for edgeguarding, and even wavedashing off the edge to grab the ledge.)

I practice techskill like alll the time and it's generally pretty **** good when i play in friendlies at a smashfest but when i play in tourney it goes down the drain.

iono anyone have good advice for this? I'm assuming i just need more experience
Just imagine how afraid your opponent is as well. If you're nervous, know your opponent is as nervous as you are deep down inside if not more, and use that to your advantage. Don't worry about placings just have fun and you'll end up being top 10 without even noticing.
 

AvengerAngel

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um, on the first one, it's like, strong dair -> lcancel -> shine -> wavedash -> immediate double jump -> dair at the peak -> fast fall -> l cancel -> shine
Duh, I think I can't explain it better. I'll try to record it tomorrow to show you what I mean :O
 

JPOBS

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I had this same problem as you avenger and posted about it a while ago.

i usually cop out and do dair->shine->shine bair for a instant 40% and then from there the combos are really easy.
i hate messing up a extended combo vs marth on fd and getting fair'd->grab->death. i still haent reall figured it out yet.

as for the nerves thing, i think it is just expereince. I know my first tourny i was a wreck and couldnt do anyhting right. The nerves never go away, but after you get used to the feeling, they start to effect your play less and less.
to this day i still feel the same nerves but they rarely cause me to mess up jus cause i know the feeling and am used to it now. In some cases it even helps my tech skill and adreniline starts going and things just start to click.
 

JPOBS

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lol wtf really? who was at ur first tourny?

my first tourny had the likes of raynex, unknown, kirbykaze, I.B so...ya :/
 

JPOBS

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Swiftbass, PockyD, Taki, other Pittsburgh players, all before they were good, :laugh:

I've been playing for a long time yo, it was a different game back then.
ahah word.

i played in a hotel room with all those guys + D20 at pound 4. guys are mad chill lol
 

Aldwyn McCloud

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how did you learn to get over tournament anxiety?

sometimes it seems like all my techskill/control over falco just disappears when i'm in tournament. I'm too afraid to take any risks becuz i don't think i'll be able to execute certain things correctly.(I get afraid of doing stuff like jump off ledge, jump back double laser for edgeguarding, and even wavedashing off the edge to grab the ledge.)

I practice techskill like alll the time and it's generally pretty **** good when i play in friendlies at a smashfest but when i play in tourney it goes down the drain.

iono anyone have good advice for this? I'm assuming i just need more experience
you already answered your own question.
I'm pretty much a veteran when it comes to tournament stress. Since the very first tournament I've been haunted by it and it's still my worst nightmare even nowadays.. there is no real way to counter it apart from getting used to it by playing more and more tournaments.
Also, let me add that the first skills you lose when undergoing tournament stress are those you still aren't proficient in. During my first tournaments I couldn't even shffl correctly because of stress but now even under stress I'm usually able to.
 

AvengerAngel

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Yay, I managed to find 2 visual examples of what I mean!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYm3GsMsfiI @ 00.49 = Chops using the standard immediate double jump (same height of the DJDL), except there's a shine in between, but it doesn't really matter. Strong Dair at the peak of the DJ and fastfall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEwOPTOlrs0 @ 2.09 = BS using the full jump and pretty much at the peak of the first jump, he jumps in mid-air and comes down with a strong Dair [edit: and btw I'm pretty sure that the Dair doesn't connect. Marf might have the time to jump out or hit you with an Uair/counter/whatever]

Honestly they both look kinda "fake". I think Marf could have the time to pull out a Fair before the Utilt. I went through the Shiz vs. Falcomist matches on FD again and Shiz has never tried to pull that thing off at low %s. So either he thinks there are better ways to combo Marf or he knows there are some risks involved, like getting Fair'd and comboed to death, dunno.
I think it makes more sense now :D

So yeah, I'll eventually switch to shine > bair or uair > bair or something like that, if Dair > utilt is so risky.
Maybe a CC > shine/smash could work if Falco is at low % as well, dunno
 

JPOBS

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ya this has perplexed me for a while. i havent been able to do this consistently enough to think its a real combo, sometimes i get it and sometimes i dont. but mogwai swears it combos so i dunno wats up.

in the clip with hbk, its tough to call, but in the clip with Ken, ken was definitely out of hitstun and attempted a bair for some reason where a dair would have broken BS's combo.

and ya, CC'ing the incoming fair is an option too if the situation arises
 

FoxLisk

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re: tournament nerves

i recently stopped having this issue. i just focus on getting my head into the game so much that i don't have time to be worried about other things. I'm sure I'd still be nervous playing mango in tourney, but against players close to my own level, I have become much better at not choking up and playing below my level.

i find it easiest to just talk myself down a lot. some cognitive therapy ****. like when i miss a combo and get hit for it, instead of getting nervous, i just tell myself exactly what i messed up and that i won't do it again, and go back to thinking about how my opponent is playing. keeps me calm, not sure what works for other people.
 

Dr Peepee

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I had terrible nerves for a long time, but what I would do is try to get fully immersed in my matches and pretend my opponent is only a character(with habits lol) and not a player to beat. It ended up being a good enough fix until experience did the rest for me.
 

SPAWN

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Just imagine how afraid your opponent is as well. If you're nervous, know your opponent is as nervous as you are deep down inside if not more, and use that to your advantage. Don't worry about placings just have fun and you'll end up being top 10 without even noticing.
Since when did you start posting here? ;) /wonders if you remember me

Skimmed through some posts.

Mogwai- Screw you for placing well when you first started. I started in 05-06 and I got like 17th or some **** lol.

DrPP- I can't stop meatriding you lol. If I went down to NC would you house me so we could bro out for a few days (without you really even meeting/knowing me). ;) I'm okay with no btw... it is a pretty awkward question, but I figured it's much less awkward then the last statement I brought up. xD
 

JPOBS

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you should work on your laser game on platforms. especially in the yoshis and battlefield matches, a number of times you fired lasers in the wrong direction by accident on isai dropps and other platform trickery, which will get you killed a lot by opponents.

if your gonna lay falco your laser game might as well be perfect right.

other than that i find it hard to critique matches were you win by a large margin. its mostly you doing things right/them doing things wrong so i never kno wat to say lol
 

FoxLisk

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@trahh

okay you clearly play that matchup well enough to beat that guy, but i'll point out a few things i see:

1) laser lower. high lasers don't bother marth much unless you predict he's going to SH and hit him as he's rising. most of your lasers should be low.

2) when you have an opening where you can throw any move you want, you keep fsmashing. this is great at high %, but you do it at low %. in the third match, you fsmashed him for 17% when you coul dhave easily dair shine FH dair utilt bair or something for like 50+%. just because you can smash doesnt make it the best option!

3) vary approach more. most of your approaches were laser laser sh nair. sometimes you'd throw more lasers, but i didnt see you do a lot of real mixups; you never ran up and grabbed when he stayed in shield, or ran in and WD'd back or ran in and shield or shined or anything. it was mostly nair when you were approaching. FH dairs don't count as a mixup. they're just suicide.

4) i like your movement. sometimes you mess up technically but you seem pretty smooth otherwise.
 

trahhSTEEZY

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Thanks guys. I can tell I don't laser as much here, this is the person i've probably played the most friendlies with in my life, like hours on end, we've just never recorded. I'ma go re-watch my matches and evaluate sum shiiiit. Thanks both of you. Foxlisk always a niggggga helpin<3

also, there should be uploaded where i'm not winning all of em..he wins often too, i uploaded a bunch more :D

defffff gotta remember to mixup my approach more. it's just so habitual i guess. though i dont notice many sh nair approaches, i usually try not to do that unless they're at like 50%+
 

unknown522

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I had terrible nerves for a long time, but what I would do is try to get fully immersed in my matches and pretend my opponent is only a character(with habits lol) and not a player to beat. It ended up being a good enough fix until experience did the rest for me.
sounds good.

I hate playing people I like in tourney, but gotta do what you gotta do.
 

SmashMac

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Since when did you start posting here? ;) /wonders if you remember me
I remember you. You beat me in a set with Sheik in a pool at Pound II. I wasn't sure it was you at the time 'cause I imagined you being much older than you looked.

Yeah I'm just randomly looking through Falco threads to see what's become of them. I haven't really payed attention to this part of the Character Specifics since I started playing Doc. and recently quit playing SSBM competitively.
 
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