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phi1ny3

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Because fall speed and weight aren't directly related to each other.

Fox is like the 8th lightest in weight, but look how fast he falls. (similarly applies to Sheik)

Lucario is 5th slowest in fall speed (non FF'd), but he's a dead middleweight (like the very middle in weight values)
 

Blindman!

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what is the best thing to do at the start of a match with a d-bag falco that is double lasering ? i cant think of anything but planking any ideas?
 

Blindman!

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ahhh but the he shoots reg lasers and they hit even if crouched so yea.......
im pretty much wondering if i should approach him or just wait him out when he is camping?
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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You might want to eat a couple lasers, so he doesn't chain you into something.

Don't roll towards him too much.

Staying in the air too much gets you Phantasm'd and him resetting the situation over 'n over.
 

hichez50

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Staying close to falco is my preference. Midrange is where falco shines that is where his laser bait you to. I'm sure it common knowledge not to choose a super flat stage.
 

phi1ny3

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By the same coin though, platforms placed in certain areas give Falco's recovery options improvements (hence why you hear stuff like Falco's secretly best neutral is BF), because on FD he has only three big options, whereas with plats he can potentially use those plats to help his phantasm.

Although it goes without saying that FD is going to be a campfest, but at the same time the sides/ceiling are nice for Lucario. I'd also consider that Junebug and Lee have both won matches against top falcos on this stage, so it can work for your advantage.

YI imo has a nice surprise of never making falco's phantasm easy to lagless cancel, so if you read the ledgehop phantasm and roll, you'll have a couple more frames to get him, because the stage contours make his phantasm either grounded or he has to fall a little further down.

Brinstar, if you have the balls to take him there, will hurt his recovery a looooooooot. phantasm has to be positioned correctly or he'll pass through the stage and die, so he either has to time it right, use his second jump to reposition, or firebird.

imo worse places to be around falco are faaar away, high above him (although it's a bit of a gamble for both), and midrange when in the kill zone. The best places to be imo are behind him, near him (sorta) in your preferred zoning range, and when he's offstage (obviously lol).
 

Zucco

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If the Falco plays correctly, Lucario cant win on FD imo.

How does Lucario catch Falco if the Falco has the intent of timing you out while keeping your percent as low as possible to avoid accidental death?

of course, this is probably easier said then done.
 

phi1ny3

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Yes, I would haaaaaate to be "perfect camped". I have yet to see it happen though...

Unless that's what happened to Trela at MLG (didn't DEHF 2-0 him?)

edit: I just read the thing. I dunno, I think it might be plausible for someone who's a top falco, but I don't think camping with the intent of avoiding pumping Lucario with damage is totally realistic. Then again, we're talking about FD.

On Japes, definitely happening lol. I can also see falco CG x3 to spike to the claptrap on Lucario :(

double edit: Falco's for the birds, Zucco
 

RT

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From what I heard, he just got outplayed.
 

Blindman!

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i dont really worry about his over b recover because i can normally time a smash to punish him or ledge grab him or aura sphere him....... and thanx for the imfo
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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Knock Falco out of Phantasm.

For crying out loud we're Lucario. Anything we do knocks Falco out of Phantasm (spaced properly).
 

phi1ny3

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Knock Falco out of Phantasm.

For crying out loud we're Lucario. Anything we do knocks Falco out of Phantasm (spaced properly).
Anything anybody does knocks out of phantasm. His hurtbox is ahead of his hitbox when it happens

It's an issue of timing and where you are when the phantasm happens that's the problem.

good falcos usually make hitting phantasm tricky though, even at the edge.
 

DusK-The-Stray

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I know it's been said more than a million times by now, but it's simply a matter of attacking on reaction with Ftilt/Dtilt being the best options on the ground, don't know about the air though but I would think something like Nair is useful.

Most Falco have a pattern from what I've seen, learn it and abuse it.

Don't know if it's just me, but I feel like it's incredibly easy to knock them out of it.


Edit: Everything I say concerning match-ups should always be taken with a grain of salt.
 

LegendofLink

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Wouldn't our jab combo be best for knocking Falco out of a ground-level phantasm? It stays out longer and can lead into followups easier than the tilts.
 

RT

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Anything anybody does knocks out of phantasm. His hurtbox is ahead of his hitbox when it happens

It's an issue of timing and where you are when the phantasm happens that's the problem.

good falcos usually make hitting phantasm tricky though, even at the edge.
Pretty much this...watch how good Falcos abuse Phantasm and make themselves unpredictable/hard to hit with it. It's not like they're going to make it obvious. <_<
 

Blindman!

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thats why u keep jumping in the air and nonsence like that so when they do it u can punish it its not that hard i assure u or sphere it like just keep shootng lil ones alot!
 

hichez50

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Pretty much this...watch how good Falcos abuse Phantasm and make themselves unpredictable/hard to hit with it. It's not like they're going to make it obvious. <_<
Good falco don't put themselves in a position that they are foced to phantasm there for no pattern can be seen.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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You can still make a read for when they will phantasm.

It's a bit more difficult on good Falco's but if Lee and Junebug and hit top level falco's out of it pretty sure other people can as well.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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Mm, with Jab though you only get that attack in front of you. With FTilt part of the hitbubbles are on Lucario's body.

For me I have the hardest time stopping Falcos who Phantasm right at your head.
 

hichez50

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You don't have to punish you just have to make sure you don't get punished.
 

phi1ny3

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Yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that although you can get away with fsmashing/lolsmashing phantasm, one needs to mix it up, because I see even good lucarios do this (I have a bad habit of doing this myself), and phantasm is actually a deceptively good "reversal" in position, since there's a significant disadvantage about being above falco with that much advantage towards him.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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My bad, Kita :x

Utilt is also nice to knock the birdy outta Phantasm.

Alus, don't roll so much right next to Falco when he's lasering/doing nothing, gets you punished a lot...

Its all about guessing when they will Phantasm, sometimes you have to roll during it to punish their ending/landing lag.

And maybe the lucky gimp every once in awhile :x
 

phi1ny3

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I know this falco sucks balls but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGn4a3YefBo

Windmill? Roll more? Use more sphere? Do you have to try and send them back to the edge every time?

I'm just clueless to why falco's side b is so fatal.
Yes, that falco was pretty bad about his offstage/ledge game, especially on stock 2 (should not have used his second jump so quickly) >_< mega impatient to boot

sideB itself isn't fatal (at all, lol), but at high percents it can change the scenario from an advantaged one ("yay ledgeguarding falco!") to a disadvantaged one ("oh no getting uair/bair trapped!"), since he has some small frame advantage at times, and it pops you up high in the air (something that's risky against falco).

in game 3 of gnes' falco v. Trela, for instance, falco's phantasm gets predicted much less (aside from 10:50, I think he almost always gets away unpunished), I'm just saying if one's falco is smart, it's definitely not as easy as everyone's making it out to be lol (you definitely have options against it, but it's sufficient to get to the stage safely when the user is aware of his options). Not saying Falco's recovery is amazing (on contrast, it's pretty bad for his tier's caliber), but it definitely can get by, also plats do help his recovery options out when used correctly.
 

MythTrainerInfinity

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Hmmm have we ever done a project that included a listing of all of the moves we could grab?

Heck, it might be better to just get a listing of moves we could get frame advantages out of. Anyone wanna help me with this?

Also, doesn't our NAir autocancel if landed near the very end of the move? I was playing around with it and I think I saw it.
 

hichez50

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I was playing some doubles and once CF jabbed me and I used lucarios side be and got a frame 1 force palm grab. I was just wondering if this was already found.
 

RT

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Yeah, it works against certain jab combos/cancels.
 

RT

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I would imagine that MK's bair has far too much hitstun...but I could be wrong.
 

hichez50

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How about we do some test to see what moves this works on. It makes the frame 1 FP applicable.
 
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