Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

[Wintropy]

@ shrooby , I don't think it's even. As a dedicated Pit main who's played many a good Dedede, I think Dedede realistically has the advantage. Especially taking into account people's opinions here, it seems everybody agrees that the advantage is Dedede's. Even forgoing weighted results (I think the 65:35 score from earlier is waaaay overboard for this kinda matchup), I can't justify it being even when it...it really isn't. Hence why I edited in my score to say that I do think it's 55:45 to Dedede. Just my two cents.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's definitely not a ludicrous advantage over Pit, @ Wintropy , I agree. @ KeithTheGeek had a great write up explaining why. In short, D3 has the tools to mitigate Pit's neutral game, and the ability to act a little more freely than in our usual MUs. D3 edges by, and only just.

Smooth Criminal

 

[shrooby]

We're discussing Ike now. If you take issue with the previous outcome, you can PM me.
Continuing will be considered off-topic and open to infractions.

 

[Soul Train]

Alright, IKE. A fun match for sure, the better player will win here.

I love the character so much. Ike was my main in Brawl/PM/Smash 4 until I discovered D3, and I still play Ike as a strong secondary. Both characters have a lot going for them - both have great kill power, big disjointed hitboxes, and WILL wreck you with a read or two - but D3 edges out ahead solidly in this matchup.

It really comes down to this: D3 has a lot weaknesses in this game, but Ike can't capitalize on any of them particularly well. Then in turn, Ike can't do much about D3's strengths. Yep, Ike's buffs were awesome and let him threaten with a much safer offense - but he's still slow. And by that I mean: not fast enough to punish a lot of D3's otherwise unsafe options. And because of that, D3 can get away with a lot more.

First and most important, Speed - this is the main reason why D3 is lower tier right now, but neither Ike's movement nor his frame data is built to punish this. Ike only has a slightly faster Run speed than D3, but D3 has a way better fastfall speed, and multiple jumps to boot. Meaning: 1. Ike isn't quick enough to punish a lot of D3's attacks - like Ftilt or Bair - that faster characters can. This allows D3 to not commit as hard to his options. 2. Ike is great at reading/punishing landings, but D3 is great at getting back to ground safely. This is very important, as where Ike can pressure many characters into uncomfortable spacings/situations, D3 can almost always get to stage safely and reset to neutral.

Spacing is really the key in this matchup. D3's Ftilt is huge here; Ike has no solid answer to it. It outranges all of Ike's options on the ground and is entirely safe on shield when spaced well (again, Ike's slowness bites him here). Know that Ikes love to SHFF Nair/Fair, and both are safe when spaced right. So in turn, try walking forward + shield. Really, all D3s should walk more, it's a fantastic option. And unless Ike really misspaces it, don't try to grab him out of Nair; they can shield pressure you with it outside grab range.

There's really no reason for D3 to be jumping much in this matchup. Ike's Fair is one of his best moves - it can kill, setup for combos, and outrange everything not called Shulk - so don't set yourself up to get by it. D3's fair loses hardcore here, but at certain angles your Bair will beat Ike's Fair (slightly above or below). Don't be right in front of Ike in the air.

Gordos - with these, D3 forces Ike to approach him. For once, right? This is a great match to throw smart Gordos out - Ike has to commit to every button he presses, and while he has big disjointed hitboxes it's easy to punish the reflect attempts. Of course don't be stupid about it, but with smart Gordo/retreating Bair/Ftilt, Ike must come to you. Which is, for once, huge.

Edgeguarding: Ike has 2 options - recover high with Quick Draw, recover low with Aether. Quick Draw is predictable (you hear him charging it way in advance), isn't too hard to beat (Uair works great if you float just under him), and makes for some fun Gordo tricks (jump up with Ike as he starts charging, drop a falling UGordo to track right with him, punish if he bites). And unless Ike spaces it perfectly waaay below the ledge, Aether is actually very punishable - just few know how to do it. The sword is invincible, but as Ike jumps up to catch it he is vulnerable. Try floating up AWAY from the stage, and the second Ike throws his sword up, Bair. It'll hit him as he jumps up and stagespike (assuming no tech). Or just use the usual UGordo trap stuff onstage. You have so many options here. Also, do NOT try to Super Dedede Jump over Ike when he's charging Eruption. The thing hits stupid high above Ike, and will murder a stupid D3 trying to mix things up.

D3 can kill just as well, combo almost as well, outrange in specific places, and pressure better in neutral. Ftilt lots. Pressure with smart Gordo mixups (Standing DGordo, jump FGordo, etc), make him scared to reflect them. Be wary, don't get predictable or Ike will wreck you. Shield a lot. Space and don't get grabbed. ...yep.

60:40

 

[miniada]

60:40 similar to the comment above me dedede can combo ike out ranges him has moves like F tilt that he can't deal with and Ike has laggy moves that dedede can punish

 

[CO18]

Eh Don't think DDD wins this, Its probably even. I thought ftilt ***** Ike but it doesn't at all, just ikes suck lol. I just played ryo (best Ike) in tourney. Ike can easily abuse/punish ftilt if they have good movement. Wish the set was recorded but it wasn't.

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

i don't think DDD wins this MU either. just to expand on CO18's point. These 2 characters do the almost the same things to each other but Ike's tool work better. for example a spaced f-tilt from ike is safe. A spaced b-air from ike is safe. if DDD does either of those option DDD is getting chopped literally. Ike game play is also a wall of scary high damage hit box which also makes gordos an iffy move to use. From the way i see it ike doesn't have to commit to anything while DDD has to commit to everything.

There may be details i'm missing here (because i'm not that experienced in the MU. I'm just basing this off my knowledge of both characters ) but a "Both characters do the same thing but one does it better" scenario or "A Must read Matchup" means this MU is at least 6:4 in one's favor.

And considering ike does it better and does not have to commit as hard i'm gonna rule this at least 6:4

Feel free to correct me if i got anything wrong

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So IDK if I would call it 60:40 either character's favor. On the one hand, I think Dedede simply has more tools than Ike, but on the other, Ike is just safer to use.

Off-stage I would say this is solidly in Dedede's favor. On stage is more iffy. I want to lean towards it being a slight advantage for Dedede overall, but it could go either way.

I would like to say, Dedede can space bair and be generally safe against slower characters. It auto-cancels out of short hop and you do not want to get smacked by it. At the same time Ike can come in with a nair or fair, and if Dedede is on the ground he doesn't have a satisfactory answer to either of those things. If he hits those he can follow up with stuff.

Gordo is good and can put Ike in a bad spot when used well, but Ike can smack it away and be safe while doing so thanks to his sword.

Had this been pre-patch Ike I would absolutely think Dedede had a solid 60:40 advantage, but now I'm not so sure. Ike can play the spacing game too, has some okay combos and follow ups, and can notably kill Dedede early. He also has cleaner frame data than Dedede. Thinking about it Dedede can probably exert more pressure on Ike than the other way around, but if Ike gets in then he'll take the advantage.

50:50, maybe 55:45 .

 

[shrooby]

i don't think DDD wins this MU either. just to expand on CO18's point. These 2 characters do the almost the same things to each other but Ike's tool work better. for example a spaced f-tilt from ike is safe. A spaced b-air from ike is safe. if DDD does either of those option DDD is getting chopped literally. Ike game play is also a wall of scary high damage hit box which also makes gordos an iffy move to use. From the way i see it ike doesn't have to commit to anything while DDD has to commit to everything.

There may be details i'm missing here (because i'm not that experienced in the MU. I'm just basing this off my knowledge of both characters ) but a "Both characters do the same thing but one does it better" scenario or "A Must read Matchup" means this MU is at least 6:4 in one's favor.

And considering ike does it better and does not have to commit as hard i'm gonna rule this at least 6:4

Feel free to correct me if i got anything wrong

Saying it's 60:40 in either direction is ridiculous, honestly.
More details below.

Alright, IKE. A fun match for sure, the better player will win here.

I love the character so much. Ike was my main in Brawl/PM/Smash 4 until I discovered D3, and I still play Ike as a strong secondary. Both characters have a lot going for them - both have great kill power, big disjointed hitboxes, and WILL wreck you with a read or two - but D3 edges out ahead solidly in this matchup.

It really comes down to this: D3 has a lot weaknesses in this game, but Ike can't capitalize on any of them particularly well. Then in turn, Ike can't do much about D3's strengths. Yep, Ike's buffs were awesome and let him threaten with a much safer offense - but he's still slow. And by that I mean: not fast enough to punish a lot of D3's otherwise unsafe options. And because of that, D3 can get away with a lot more.

First and most important, Speed - this is the main reason why D3 is lower tier right now, but neither Ike's movement nor his frame data is built to punish this. Ike only has a slightly faster Run speed than D3, but D3 has a way better fastfall speed, and multiple jumps to boot. Meaning: 1. Ike isn't quick enough to punish a lot of D3's attacks - like Ftilt or Bair - that faster characters can. This allows D3 to not commit as hard to his options. 2. Ike is great at reading/punishing landings, but D3 is great at getting back to ground safely. This is very important, as where Ike can pressure many characters into uncomfortable spacings/situations, D3 can almost always get to stage safely and reset to neutral.

Spacing is really the key in this matchup. D3's Ftilt is huge here; Ike has no solid answer to it. It outranges all of Ike's options on the ground and is entirely safe on shield when spaced well (again, Ike's slowness bites him here). Know that Ikes love to SHFF Nair/Fair, and both are safe when spaced right. So in turn, try walking forward + shield. Really, all D3s should walk more, it's a fantastic option. And unless Ike really misspaces it, don't try to grab him out of Nair; they can shield pressure you with it outside grab range.

There's really no reason for D3 to be jumping much in this matchup. Ike's Fair is one of his best moves - it can kill, setup for combos, and outrange everything not called Shulk - so don't set yourself up to get by it. D3's fair loses hardcore here, but at certain angles your Bair will beat Ike's Fair (slightly above or below). Don't be right in front of Ike in the air.

Gordos - with these, D3 forces Ike to approach him. For once, right? This is a great match to throw smart Gordos out - Ike has to commit to every button he presses, and while he has big disjointed hitboxes it's easy to punish the reflect attempts. Of course don't be stupid about it, but with smart Gordo/retreating Bair/Ftilt, Ike must come to you. Which is, for once, huge.

Edgeguarding: Ike has 2 options - recover high with Quick Draw, recover low with Aether. Quick Draw is predictable (you hear him charging it way in advance), isn't too hard to beat (Uair works great if you float just under him), and makes for some fun Gordo tricks (jump up with Ike as he starts charging, drop a falling UGordo to track right with him, punish if he bites). And unless Ike spaces it perfectly waaay below the ledge, Aether is actually very punishable - just few know how to do it. The sword is invincible, but as Ike jumps up to catch it he is vulnerable. Try floating up AWAY from the stage, and the second Ike throws his sword up, Bair. It'll hit him as he jumps up and stagespike (assuming no tech). Or just use the usual UGordo trap stuff onstage. You have so many options here. Also, do NOT try to Super Dedede Jump over Ike when he's charging Eruption. The thing hits stupid high above Ike, and will murder a stupid D3 trying to mix things up.

D3 can kill just as well, combo almost as well, outrange in specific places, and pressure better in neutral. Ftilt lots. Pressure with smart Gordo mixups (Standing DGordo, jump FGordo, etc), make him scared to reflect them. Be wary, don't get predictable or Ike will wreck you. Shield a lot. Space and don't get grabbed. ...yep.

60:40

Soul like I agree on what you're saying, but you're just not mentioning things that need to be said.
Ike's strengths, in particular.
I do think DDD actually wins neutral.
But Ike has enough speed and landing mixups to reset the situation relatively easily. And while Ike does have to respect ftilt (and jab), he just gets so much more reward off of each hit than DDD unless DDD punishes with a grab.
So DDD will probably be getting more hits in neutral than Ike, but Ike will get more off of his hits in neutral than DDD to make up for that. DDD's disadvantage state is just too poor to ignore.

Basically, Ike and DDD play the same game, on the surface. DDD does play it better (because ftilt and jab, so long as they're spaced perfectly), but Ike gets more reward from it.
Like, ok, you hit Ike with ftilt. He'll probably still land safely 'cause DDD doesn't have the speed to chase him and capitalize on that hit.
But if Ike grabs you, or nairs you, dtilts you, fairs you, you will be eating more and more hits.

Also worth noting is how scary Ike's edgeguarding is when you're hanging on the ledge. With how big Ike's hitboxes are, and how big DDD is, it can be very hard to get back on the stage.

Eh Don't think DDD wins this, Its probably even. I thought ftilt ***** Ike but it doesn't at all, just ikes suck lol. I just played ryo (best Ike) in tourney. Ike can easily abuse/punish ftilt if they have good movement. Wish the set was recorded but it wasn't.

brarg, I would've wanted to see that.

But, yea, standing ftilt isn't as great in this MU as you'd think. Found that out myself too.
In this MU I tend to space using jab 1/jab 2 when I'm just standing and walking around in neutral. Ftilt more for retreating with pivots and punishing landings. Retreating pivot ftilt is harder to react to and punish.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'll just throw in some points to consider:

-Ike's Uair is almost Rosalina level and we can combo into it at kill percents. Or just punish an airdodge with it, that works too.

-D3 is combo food for Ike's throw combos. And he has a lot of them. Dtilt also leads into a number as does Nair.

-Even with super armour D3's Up B is going to get eaten by Eruption because Eruption is hitting during the ledge snap vulnerability. You no longer have super armour during that time.

-Ike's air speed is actually pretty good. He can't weave much but going in one direction in the air? Slightly better than Fox at it for comparison's sake.

-Ike's retreating pivoting ftilt is also hard to punish. Wheeee both characters might be walking around trying to ftilt behind them.

-Ike has like a million ways to reflect Gordos but I'm assuming that's normal for D3 to be up against and you all probably have a gameplan that acknowledges that. We also don't really have to worry much about approaching. Not rapid enough and well, see below.

-Ike's Dash Attack is lethal. Very lethal. One of the most lethal in the game now that it's buffed. Keep that in mind in mid range: not the time to be tossing things out willynilly. Also if it hits both D3 and a Gordo at the same time, D3 gets hit by the attack twice for 24% damage. And you can't clank it out. So the moment Ike is in mid range you basically can't touch Side B very much. By "mid range" I mean "the majority of Smashville's main platform because holy crap have you seen the size of Ike's dash attack?" Be veeeeeeery careful with your Gordos, arguably almost never use them on the ground or close to the ground.

-Saw mention of walking forwards and shielding to punish Ike's aerial approach attempts. We don't only use aerial approaches, but keep in mind that a perfectly spaced Nair on Ike's part is only -2 on shield. Really hard to space it that precisely, but its not a free punish unless we screw up the spacing and like hit the shield with the sword hilt.

-Quick draw is not as easy to punish as you think, though with D3's uair he has a bit of an easier time than some characters do. If Ike is high up he can aim for: above a platform and land with no landing lag, right on a platform, high above the main stage and land with no landing lag, right at the main stage, at the edge, a bit below the edge and still snap upwards, or at D3 himself. If you commit at the wrong time Ike's getting back for free. You're almost better off "letting" Ike get back the way he wants if he's charging QD and instead focus on positioning yourself to punish the moment he lands. Even if he has no landing lag he's still sliding.

Ike has the edge. Don't really know by what extent. D3 is going to have to rely heavily on jab/ftilt/bair. Neutral B might be a good tool to look at as well, you're going to want to tack on damage and put Ike into awkward situations where ever possible. Juggle Ike as much as possible as well.

 

[Mario766]

Ike has stronger boxing, better frame data, better reward and kills more reliably.

DDD only has better range on him and has to rely on a frame 12 F-Tilt to keep us out. DDD isn't safe on shield, if DDD has to approach he loses.

Ike also abuses DDD's lack of recovery options, Eruption covers ledge grab and Eruption can beat the falling up-b clean, as does counter. Once DDD loses neutral he loses out-right. DDD might have a slightly better neutral but Ike has better tools to get into advantage, where he shines much more than DDD.

55-45 Ike approaching 6-4 or +1.

 

[shrooby]

@ CO18 do you have anything else to say about your set with Ryo?
It's probably the best example we have of the MU in practice. Even if the two of you weren't necessarily familiar with the MU

 

[CO18]

@ CO18 do you have anything else to say about your set with Ryo?
It's probably the best example we have of the MU in practice. Even if the two of you weren't necessarily familiar with the MU

It's difficult to say since it was only 1 set but I def had much better success playing a more aerial based game, beginning of first match I was grounded alot more and it was really easy for him to mix up empty jumps/the timing of his nairs and fairs spaced on shield and you can't really punish it so I was just eating shield damage. Started playing a similar game mixing up empty jumps/bairs and fairs,baiting him into the air then fastfalling and grabbing his landings etc. But dedede's bair size/hitbox can really do work in the mu

 

[Flawed]

Been away from Smash 4, for awhile preparing for large monthly PM tournament, in which I was cheezed out with PM Lucario (wtf is this)

Wish I had been around for Pit and Pacman matchups, my training partner is a Pit main, and I've done countless sets with Beatfox, a pretty beastly Pacman, with plenty of tricks up his sleeves.


Ike vs D3 - Advantage to Ike

Ike's combo game is lethal, and almost free on D3.
Nair is hard to punish for some reason
Gordo is not spammable (not the right word, but you know what I mean)
Dtilt forces combos
Eruption hits ledge and above- isdangerous with proper timing


We have jab
We CAN harrass gordo offstage, the aim will not fly up and hit us if hes below stage level
Landing Up b on the stage works through eruption
Dthrow Fair is SAFE at 0%- spaced properly , (he can't SDI and fair like Pit/DarkPit)
Inhale off stage


The problem that I have in this matchup is doing as much damage to Ike in advantage state that he can to me. I get a dthrow into an aerial and then its a chase. Ike has less of a chase for us after he hits one of his combo starters, and he can make moderations to what he can do.

I've gotten hit by Dtilt, nair- backthrow fair, and that was serious.

Experience from Arizona player Yoshio, don't know his tag name.

 

[shrooby]

Ike is done.

55:45

And now we move onto Waaaario
A familiar MU from Brawl, perhaps. But it'll certainly be different now.
Discuss!

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So because I have absolutely no experience against tournament level Wario, I took a peak over at the old Wario match-up threads from Brawl... Basically, it seems like the main reasons we destroyed Wario in Brawl was the general silliness Dedede lost in the transition to Smash 4, such as his chain grab, his god-like bair, his STUPID grab range, worse utilt, etc...

However we still have some relevant advantages over Wario in this match-up. We still have good disjoints and strong aerials, they're just less safe in this game. We should still be able to combo Wario well enough, we just can't lock him down with a single grab anymore. Plus he loses his tires, so one of his noteworthy advantages over Dedede is lost as well.

My concerns is that Wario became stronger in this game just because of the change in grab mechanics, where-as Dedede became undeniably worse from losing many of his best tools. From what I'm reading, Wario's main hope in Brawl was trying to camp Dedede out. It's probably more effective since Dedede is forced to get in closer now, and Wario can also play safer than Dedede in general.

I'm going to give this a hesitant advantage to Dedede for the time being, because we still do outrange him and generally beat him out in the air when spaced well, but the advantage is not nearly as strong as it would be in Brawl. Those are just my current thoughts though, I'd like to see whatever input more knowledgeable players could bring to the table on both sides of the match-up.

 

[Axel311]

This is a matchup I've thought a lot about because Wario is my only other character I play seriously besides Dedede. I'm playing mostly Wario now in my local live tournaments until Dedede gets a buff. I have spent a ton of practice time with both characters.

Here's my opinion on why Wario wins this matchup solidly -

Wario doesn't have to approach, at all. A good Wario will run away the whole match and stall for fart, staying out of Dedede's range while playing the bait and punish game. He'll pick his spots carefully and play very defensively. In this matchup, Dedede's biggest advantage is his big disjoints to counter Wario's short range, but it really doesn't matter much because Wario doesn't have to approach at all and doesn't have to commit to anything unsafe unless he falls behind in percent. Dedede simply cannot catch Wario, Wario's air mobility is 2nd only to Puff - as long as Wario is ahead Dedede is in a terrible spot.

Meanwhile, while Wario has to commit to mostly nothing Dedede has to commit to mostly everything. Mistakes or endlag from Dedede can be punished with safe moves from Wario like bair, fair, bite, bike or worst all all..fart. Despite D3's weight, a fully charged fart with higher rages can kill Dedede even at lowish percents at the sides of the stage. Realistically though you're probably OK most of the time until mid percents in most situations since Wario will need to hit you on the edge with a lot of rage to kill you much earlier than that. To his detriment Dedede is one of the easiest characters in the game to fart on though because of his huge hurtbox and bad frame data.

You might think Wario has to approach here because of gordo, but it's actually the other way around. Dedede is actually the one forced to approach because any second he is not approaching he is allowing Wario to charge his waft for free. Wario can also use the bike as a projectile and harass Dedede with it from a safe range. Wario has plenty of options to deal with gordo. Wario's fair is the best tool as it comes out at a very early frame and makes for easy gordo reflections. He can also eat gordos with bite. And then there's always shield and Wario has excellent aerial mobility to get around them anyways.

As for the good for Dedede - Dedede outranges Wario by a lot with his disjoints. That's the big tool he has here. If Dedede is ahead decently in percent and Wario is forced to approach Dedede is in a great spot. Abuse bair especially to keep wario out. Ftilt isn't of much use here because Wario is an aerial based character. Fltilt does beat wario on his bike if timed right though which is good. Dedede's moves also out damage most of Wario's moves by a decent margin, especially when wario's aerials start staleing badly. Wario gets punished pretty badly if he messes up. Also gordo is more effective than you'd think against wario while he is riding his bike - Wario's body is still a hurtbox while riding the bike so a lot of times the gordo's trajectory will hit Wario's body and not get reflected by the bike. Except for Dedede getting farted on, Wario's mistakes are costlier which means the lower the skill level the less advantageous the matchup is for Wario.

I actually find this matchup very nervewracking when using Wario because you get punished hard when you mess up and you can't be lazy with your spacing and get away with it. Last weekend I ran into another Dedede main in a local tourney in 3rd round of bracket and even though I was playing all Wario up to that point, I was confident my Dedede was better than his so I just Dedede ditto'ed and won the set 2-0 that way. Wario I feel has the bigger edge overall but Dedede ditto to me is lower variance and safer so if I feel I'm the better Dedede player I'll just go Dedede myself instead and take the safe set win. I'll be honest though, some of that is also personal because I've put less work overall into Wario (didn't play him seriously until about 6 months ago whereas I mained Dedede since release) than Dedede and I'm still in the process of getting my confidence up in my Wario.

But back to the matchup - bottom line Wario has an easy time camping Dedede out, which is why he wins. Wario can stay safe and commit to pretty much nothing, whereas Dedede has to commit to pretty much everything. I don't feel there's any possible way Dedede wins this matchup. Unless Wario is behind by a significant margin the match is played completely on Wario's terms. Wario can camp, throw out only safe moves, and stall for fart. And if Wario is up by a decent amount with a couple minutes left he can time Dedede out really easily.

60:40

With all that said, even though these characters are my two mains, I don't have a lot of experience playing good warios as dedede or playing good dededes as wario. It would probably be tough to find anyone that does. Lets face it this matchup is super rare...and good dededes and good warios are even rarer. Especially Warios....nobody plays him. I'm the only one in my area I know of who actually uses him as a primary main in singles. It's a matchup that's probably for the most part not played out. So I'm very open to and interested in what other wario or dedede mains have to say about this matchup.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Definitely in Wario's favor:

1. The gordo is really easy to reflect with fair so Wario doesn't have to approach and Wario can even eat slow moving gordos.
2. Dedede's a big, slow target so chomp and the waft are fairly easy to land.
3. Wario's fantastic recovery largely nullifies Dedede's off stage game unless he recovers low for whatever reason.
4. Thanks to Dedede's fall speed and weight, Wario has good follow up options out of throws and dtilt.
5. Thanks to Dedede's straight forward recovery, Wario throwing the bike is pretty effective against it.
6. Nair and fair are faster than all of Dedede's aerials so Wario wins in the air.

I would also agree with 60-40. It's a lot of same annoying stuff you have to deal with when it comes to fighting Villager (hard to gimp recovery, hard hitting trump attacks, aerials that easily outbeat yours, attacks that easily reflect the gordo) but without the long range attacks. Dedede's only real leverage in this matchup is his range and his shield grab options if the Wario gets aggressive.

 

[WRECK-IT MUNDO]

Wario can win this one if he's playing safe like Axel311 said.
There was also a funny thing I found with the gordo's if Wario smash-throw his bike at the gordo, the gordo will reflect with a massive speed and can give Dedede crazy damage! (Probably can kill him very fast if I'm correct)

60-40 for the Wah!

 

[Flawed]

I've only played against Reflex's wario once in a friendly set at GX. My d3 was not as refinded as it is now, however, I remember 2 things

-I didnt win offstage.
-Bite demolishes a run shield game
-Bike makes no sense, and wario can get two of them offstage essentially having a godlike recovery.
-Throw combos into fair were free

I abused B reverse inhale, however, I did not take the set at all. I took a game though.

 

[shrooby]

Very detailed write-up, Axel. Noice.

60:40

Bowser...Junior!
Or the Koopalings. Whichever you prefer.
I've got a few good local players who use this character, so hopefully I'll see them in the next some days and get a lot of experience. Not the most common MU in the world, I know.
Discuss!

 

[miniada]

60:40 his mecah koopa allows him to set up for combos against dedede and can be used to zone him out dedede can't approach against zones and can't escape combos bowser Jr's favor easily

 

[Flawed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3EyZcrvk_s F this matchup, I can never get the experience, and I spend too much time struggling, I'd rather go pikachu.

-Down b is dumb
-He has a sonic Side b, can jump out and mindgame you
-Up air

He can camp, and we can't.

I feel like this is awful vs a paitent Bjr.

65-35

 

[Axel311]

60:40 seems right to me as well. But I'm not that experienced in the matchup so that's just speculation.

This matchup is annoying. He can camp well as above said. The mecha koopa is really tough to deal with and super annoying.

I think Dedede can do really well off stage though, if we can get in that situation. Bowser Jr.'s recovery is very gimpable.

I think the big issue like many other matchups for Dedede is Bowser Jr. doesn't have to approach at all, so he can just play super campy and win. He can annoy us at distance with mecha koopa and even cannonball. Although cannonball generally sucks because of it's bad lag Dedede is slow so it can be used more often.

I think the common mistake you'll see though against a lot of bowser jr.s who don't know the matchup is they'll play too aggressively which makes the matchup much more doable in my eyes.

I'm definitely banning FD and Duckhunt as far as stages go.

 

[Cook]

I have a very good Morton in my area. It just takes some getting used to. Have to get good at picking up mechas. Don't get baited by side b cancel. You can combo him. He really can't get in that well if you understand him. Anything beats his side b pretty much (iirc). If he jump cancels it in front of you, you can fair. I started off losing, but once I figured out what he can do I don't think I lost again. I think Dedede wins 55:45.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I have a bit of experience with this match-up...the thing with Bowser Jr., as mentioned above, he can actually have a good deal of trouble getting in on Dedede, especially if you read your opponent well and adapt to their habits. However, it's also true that he can wait out Dedede. I don't think the cannon ball is useful, but he does have the Mecha-Koopas....and oh boy are they a pain to pick up.

The timing on them is just weird. They're like ROB's gyro, with the active hitbox, except somehow worse because they move around the ground and if you get hit, well, that's a hit confirm into one of Bowser Jr.'s side b combos. Plus the mere presence of the Mecha-Koopa makes Gordo nigh-unusable, while it is otherwise a very strong tool in this particular match-up.

If Dedede slips up, Bowser Jr. can use his side b to get up in our face for a free combo. His aerials are also really similar to Dedede's, he can create a wall with fair/bair and, while slow like Dedede's, the hitbox lingers a bit longer. Off-stage, Bowser Jr.'s recovery, while predictable, is still fairly strong because he has a mid-air jump, and then can cancel side b into a second mid-air jump. And this is without using his up b. If you smack him right as he's using up b, he's pretty much done for, otherwise make sure you space your edge-guarding option really well or he's going to hit you hard.

I think, if anything else, this is a slight advantage in Bowser Jr.'s favor. 55:45 Bowser Jr. has his fair share of trouble in this match-up, but he gets the edge in being able to trap Dedede and play the camping game. Get comfortable with dealing with the Mecha-Koopa, sometimes you'll want to pick it up, others it's better to just ignore it. The cannonball is rarely going to be seen, if he for some reason EVER uses it in neutral it's so slow you can perfect shield it, but if I recall correctly you can remove the hitbox by hitting it hard enough.

 

[Flawed]

I watched a video where Tweek was gimped by a villager doing a nair on Bowser JR's Up b.

However, I did the same thing in my video at 1:03 and he was fine. Anyone know why?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I watched a video where Tweek was gimped by a villager doing a nair on Bowser JR's Up b.

However, I did the same thing in my video at 1:03 and he was fine. Anyone know why?

Just watched the video, my guess is he was able to get his car back because you hit him with the strong hit on nair. Bowser Jr.'s clown car can be refreshed after being hit by pressing a button, however low kb attacks won't let him refresh it. I'm not sure if Dedede has any attacks with sufficiently low knock back, maybe late hit on nair?

On a side note, this probably isn't much help because this is usually a bad option in general but...if I recall, you can hit Bowser Jr. out of his side b with Gordo, as long as you hit his body and not the clown car. For everyone who isn't aware, he essentially has two separate hurtboxes: his body, which takes increased knockback, and his car, which reduces the knockback he takes. On his side b, the bottom portion of the car has super armor (I think) and will deflect Gordo. You generally want to hit him around the upper half of his character model in general, but especially if you can space an attack when he uses side b. I remember having results using Gordo for this purpose, although it's somewhat inconsistent due to the way Gordo bounces.

Otherwise, if Bowser Jr. hits your shield or cancels, it's probably better to hold the shield up. He can use this to tomahawk grab our shield, but his options out of throw are rather poor at most percents. Meanwhile, if you drop shield you're going to eat a nair or dair, which he can string into other options. Against dair you'll need to be comfortable with angling your shield, or else it might shield poke you.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

I'm surprised the Jr boards haven't been invited over here yet. :o I certainly would've dropped by sooner had I noticed this earlier. ;o

The most thorough VS Jr post I've made thus far is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-bowser-jr.414706/#post-19968875
That links into another throrough VS Jr post. I know not how much of what I've written from the perspectives of Charizard and Duck Hunt will transfer over to us penguins, but hopefully something from there will be of help, especially if I miss a detail or two here. Oh, and I've done an analysis on the Dedede MU before on the same page as the DH VS Jr MU (http://smashboards.com/threads/sic-...nd-to-be-voted-on.379294/page-5#post-19347899), though it was from DH's perspective, so I know not how useful that will be for us here either.

With all that provided, I shall begin examining the Jr MU from the "Castle, King side." </Chess ref> *Suddenly realizes that this line would've been perfect for the Robin MU that was discussed here earlier. XD;*:


Match Vid references (all from actual tournaments):
Come on and Ban #22 - Winner Ro32: Andy_Sauro (Bowser Jr.) vs Z (King Dedede): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaxTjsC3U5k

Come on and Ban #28 - Winner Ro32: Andy_Sauro (Bowser Jr.) vs Pump Magic (King Dedede): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tkSm8QKtg4

Smash WiiU - WTT1 - Singles - W2 - LoS_Castro (Bowser Jr.) vs tG|DtB Lycan (King Dedede, Diddy Kong) (1st Match Only): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4eQFrmXW6E

Bowser Jr's another person you'd want to be wary about chucking Gordos at, because not only do Jr's aerials (and ground A button moves too!) have great disjointed range, but they also have decent speed. Mechakoopas can also help Jr out with reflecting them, as well as Cannonballs. Side B on the ground is NOT a free Gordo Tossing moment, IF he's Jump Cancelling out of it, which lets him do his aerials & airdodges immediately after Side B JC-ing (Up B's possible afterwards too!).

It seems that this post I've made some time ago is proving to contain pivotal points for why a defensive Jr has it strong against the King. That Mechas, Cannonballs, and his numerous disjointed A button moves can all challenge & even beat Gordos certainly make using them incredibly risky, to the point of possibly taking away one of his most desired options. While I myself adore rushing down the King as Jr, this certainly makes the idea of a defensive Jr that refuses to go in without a sure opening quite viable, especially if wall-out short hop NAirs & especially BAirs & FAirs are used with this lameout style.

Keith's suggestion about using your Side B to hit Jr out of his Side B CAN actually work if Jr does NOT JC out of Side B and mash out NAir or FAir or airdodge or Up 1/2 afterwards, since the Side 1 Ram itself generally loses to your Side B as a whole (unless the Gordo hits his Car), though the Side 1 Spinout can beat Gordo if it doesn't land on his head.

As noted by Keith as well, picking up Mechas without airdodging or dash attacking into them is surprisingly hard for us. DTilting them, as fast as it is, can sometimes lead us into the explosion, which is bad for us. FTilt, if started early enough, can OHKO them, but I wouldn't trust that to happen reliably. Jab loses to it, as Pump Magic found out the hard way at 01:10.

It's very nice to read that many of you here are aware of what his Side B Jump Cancels can do for him, so I won't have to go too deep into how it works here (plus my link at the top of this post provides that type of intel), but it's an important part of his punishing abilities, which I'll get to next. Before I continue on, I would like to confirm that sniping his squishy head for headshots whenever you can is key for maximizing damage & knockback dealt to him, and your multiple jumps, as vulnerable as those will leave you for his vicious UAir sharking strings, can help with hovering around his head (especially when you're trying to catch him off-stage post Up 1/2 for the sourspot NAir gimp).

From the Charizard MU Thread:

The Short Hop Side B Jump Cancel. MUCH of what he's capable of is because of this. I specify Short Hop, because Jr can start-up Side 1 faster if he short hops before using Side 1, allowing him to catch openings that he otherwise would miss.

At 0%, he still has to use the Side B ram --> JC --> DAir --> Short Hop FAir --> Neutral A string / DTilt / UTilt x? --> UAir x? sequence to maximize damage on you. However, unlike most other characters, if he lands a Side B ram on you at 20-ish+%, instead of JC-ing into the stated 0% juggle sequence, he can just opt for JC-ing into multiple UAirs for ease in execution, big damage, and positional advantage. So if he lands a Side B ram at virtually any percent, and if his execution's on Tweek fleek, you're gonna eat a lot of damage from 2+ UAirs during those openings he finds and reaches.

As an aggressive rushdown Jr main myself, while I may be content with attempting to lame you out with Mechas and Cannonballs, if/once you close in, the #1 thing I'm going to want to land is the SH Side B ram, due to the sheer damage output I can score off of even just 1 of them (UAir sharking ahoy if you're at 20-ish+% because big bodies make for big targets, Jr himself included). If you're at 100-ish% if/when I land the Side B ram, I'll JC into Up B --> A (Hammer) for the KO, so if/once I build up your percent to that, be on the lookout for that Side B ram. Bait it with frame traps if you can; just don't get rammed for doing so.

That's not to say that Jrs will solely be trying to Side B ram you whenever you're close by, far from it. He'll definitely be spacing you out with Tilts, shorthop NAirs, and especially SH FAirs that he can autocancel into seemingly any grounded A button attack he chooses, with Jab string and UTilt being among his most desired followups from SH FAir. His 4-frame Jab and especially DTilt will challenge your 4-frame Jab, and those two moves of his will generally outspeed every Tilt you have.

The UAir sharking mentioned above after the SH Side B Ram --> JC, specifically for Triple D, can start as early as 0%, due to how heavy you are & how large your body is, essentially making the traditional 0% juggle sequence stated above unnecessary. Thankfully, you can survive the Up --> A (Hammer) finisher with good DI a little longer than the 100-ish% range that Zard has, provided it happens at the center of a stage with a normal ceiling size and not at the edges of it.

To modify that last sentence a bit for us penguins, your Jab is a 10 framer, and your DTilt is 6 frames, so you don't even have those to compete with Jr's Jab & DTilt in terms of sheer speed.

We can definitely stuff his Side B quite well, as Cook noted, for Jab & FTilt are some of our best options for doing so, but don't get too predictable with it, for he'll start JC-ing out of Side B earlier in anticipation of it. 'Course, if you can condition him to do so, you can then forgo the FTilt and either use FAir/BAir/NAir (if he's under you) if he takes to the skies, or even delay the timing on your FTilt. DTilt may be your fastest ground option, but there is a risk that you'll trade with his Side B. If you have it, Up 2 when Guard Cancelled into can work as well.

If you get caught in his Jab string, mash Jump while DI-ing upwards (whether away or towards) to try to minimize the damage you take from it.

Edgeguarding the Koopa Prince when he's off-stage is definitely going to be one of your strongest points in this MU, despite Jr being able to recover either high or low, a luxury that many in the cast wish they had. While chucking Gordos while you're on-stage may not be as good here as it would be in other MUs, you do have the hang time, recovery distance, and aerial range to physically challenge him off-stage. Jr is indeed quite gimpable if you read which direction he'll take for his recovery. Hovering above his head when his only resource left is Up 1/2 and sticking out a sourspot NAir should work as well for you as it does for Duck Hunt. Neutral 1 can work in that moment as well, especially if you're up a stock for the Dededecide. However, let it be said that Jr's Side B JC can help him survive Dededecides better than many others can, should he actually break out of it before he loses his stock to it.


Custom Loadouts:

Jr will likely run one of these decks: 1111 (!?), 1211, 1121, 1221, 1113, 1213, 1123, 1223. I personally would pick 1123 for most stages, and 1223 for Castle Siege, Delfino, and even Smashville. 1312 or 1322 is for Lylat Cruise.

From the Zard MU Thread, though slightly modified for us:

Koopa Drift (Side 2) gives him a phenominal horizontal recovery/movement option (which can help compensate for Meteor Ejection's lower vertical height if paired with it. However, Jr canNOT go vertically deep for the edgeguards if he's running x22x, because the JC height of Side 2 is the lowest of the 3 Side B moves), at the expense of Side 1's numerous JC juggles. This can mimic Zard's DR's cheese KO power at Smashville/CS/Delfino, but it cannot match it, let alone exceed it, due to his DR growing in KO power as the percents rise, which is not possible for KD's Spinouts. If paired with Big Mechakoopa (Down 3), he can hold onto the Big Mecha while he's in the middle of the Side 2 Spinout, and remain completely safe from the explosion while said explosion will hit you for full damage.

You're not fast enough of a rushdown juggler to make most Jrs consider running Side 3 (Grounding Dash), as far as I'm aware. However, you MIGHT see him switch to Grounding Dash if he's looking to take you to Lylat Cruise, for it's the most functional of the 3 Side B moves over there. You'll probably also see him switch to Down 2 and possibly Neutral 3 as well if Lylat Cruise is being considered, also due to functionality. Grounding Dash has frame 1 super armor, allowing him to mimic your Armored Jet Hammer's super armor. If GD hits you while you're in the air, you'll merely be launched a low distance, even at 100-ish%, so it's not necessarily a KO move by itself. If GD hits you while you're on the ground, you'll be buried for a time, and Jr's free to JC into whatever he likes if his JC timing's quick enough to actually trigger the JC.

Meteor Ejection (Up 2) will deny you DAir spikes and other upclose edgeguards, because If you're too close to him when he starts Up 2, you may get counter-spiked for your troubles (even your Up 1/2 with good timing, though their super armor MIGHT be able to help us survive it if they coincide with Jr's Up 2's active spiking frames). It's still pretty free to sourspot NAir and Neutral 1/3 once he's out of the Car, however.

Impatient Mechas (Down 2) are his fastest distant anti-air option. Should he see you in the air, he will likely try to make you backflip with it. Like Air Cannon, you'll probably only see this at Lylat Cruise.

Big Mechas (Down 3) sacrifice Down 1 & 2's zoning capabilities for a KO projectile that, if paired with Side 2, can be safely smuggled in.

However, unlike with Zard, Big Mechas are more threatening to you, because not only is your overall movement speed slower than his, but all Gordo types will easily lose to it even more than it already does to default Mechas, due to Big Mechas being, well, big. This MIGHT be preferable over Down 1, due to how much harder it is for you to steal it in comparison to many others in the cast, as well as how much easier it can be for Jr to block off Gordos and even secure the KO with it.


Triple D will likely want 3322 or 2322 or 1322 or 3312 or 2312 or 1312. I personally would pick 3322.

Dedede Storm may handle Jr's Side 1 and Down 1 if started up early enough, but it's not going to gimp Jr post Up 1/2 as easily as Bowser or Charizard's Neutral B moves would, because even just 1 hit of it will give Jr his Clown Car back, which is NOT what we penguins want.

Neutral 3, Taste Test, would probably be the Neutral B of choice here, because of its quick start-up in comparison to the other Neutral B moves. It swallows even fully charged Cannonballs harmlessly (though you may be left open to Side B Rams), though swallowing Mechakoopas will hurt you and also leave you open to Side B Rams. TT also bodies Jr's Side B when its starting up, but TT will lose to his Side B if he pre-emptively Jump Cancels it or it's already past its start-up & he's driving towards you. You may not be able to Dededecide him with this move, but you can certainly set him up for an edgeguarding attempt while building damage on him (and put him under the stage with it if there's no walls like at Smashville or T&C).

Side 3, Bouncing Gordo, is what I'd pick for the least reflectable of the 3 Gordos, since its overhead arc can help it sail over Cannonballs and Default/Big Mechas that are walking on the ground, as well as serve as a 45 degree angled anti-air that reaches out farther than our Side 1 does. It can control more horizontal space than Side 1, and if it gets reflected into you, it won't hurt as much.

Rising Dedede (Up 2)'s landing lag if you DON'T reach the freefall state is horrendous, but it's actually quite short if you DO reach that state. Its active hitbox on our way to snapping the ledge (which it is really good at doing, provided you don't hold down while it's active, unless you're trying to use it as a sneaky beyond-the-ledge anti-air KO move at high enough percents) will be very helpful for dealing with Jr's seemingly-to-the-ends-of-the-earth length he can go for the edgeguard against you, much like what you can do to him, especially with its super armor starting on frame 2, though it ends on frame 7. It grants us a surprisingly quick Guard Cancelling/OoS option, which we normally lack, and if Jr's not careful enough during his edgeguarding attempts, this can stage-spike him.

Down 2, Armored Jet Hammer, will let us walk through Mechakoopas, Cannonballs (not Air Cannons :<), Side B Rams & Jump Cancelled aerials, and even Up B in general. Grounded A button moves too can be walked through, but we DO take full damage from everything that hits us while AJH is active. It may not KO as early as Down 1 or possibly Down 3 do, but having an armored way to get in on Jr is nice to have.

Jr's grab isn't very fast or as far-reaching as it should be (it's at least faster than Pac-Man's & Villager's grabs), nor are his payoffs all that great, so the threat of being grabbed out of it isn't too great, making it a neat option to use when you're trying to return to the stage from above. However, he may still attempt to grab you, ideally from behind, if you get predictable with it.

AJH will also make Jr think twice about chasing you upwards with Up B --> A (Hammer), because of how unflinchable you may be during AJH, and if you can land your hammer swing after tanking his from up high, you might be able to KO him for it if he's at 100+%.


Stage Picks: Banning FD/Omegas & Duck Hunt is definitely a good start, since we'll need platforms to get around his Mechas & Cannonballs.

Speaking of platforms, Battlefield/Miiverse/DL64 can provide us with some, as can Smashville (whenever the 1 platform is closeby) and T&C (before the FD transition, that is).

Castle Siege without Customs hamper Jr's Mechas & Cannonballs once the walk-off room shows up, though if the fight lasts long enough to go to the tilting FD room, that's where Jr gets to take the momentum from us. At least the 1st room has platforms in close proximity.

Lylat Cruise without Customs is a fine pick against Jr, for his (Big) Mechas will struggle to stay on the stage, his Side 1 & 2 go slower when going uphill, and his Cannonballs will sometimes hit the stage itself if it tilts the right way (in your favor, that is).

Halberd & Delfino are double-edged swords, for even though we have the high KO power to take advantage of the low ceilings, so does Jr. We are heavier than he is (especially if we take his squishy head into account), so we might be able to outlast him in the low ceiling stages (which DL64 and T&C also are).


Ratios:
WithOUT Customs: 55/45 Jr's favor minimum.

WITH Customs: 50/50 Even.

 

[Ridel]

I'm surprised the Jr boards haven't been invited over here yet. :o I certainly would've dropped by sooner had I noticed this earlier. ;o

The most thorough VS Jr post I've made thus far is here: http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-bowser-jr.414706/#post-19968875
That links into another throrough VS Jr post. I know not how much of what I've written from the perspectives of Charizard and Duck Hunt will transfer over to us penguins, but hopefully something from there will be of help, especially if I miss a detail or two here. Oh, and I've done an analysis on the Dedede MU before on the same page as the DH VS Jr MU (http://smashboards.com/threads/sic-...nd-to-be-voted-on.379294/page-5#post-19347899), though it was from DH's perspective, so I know not how useful that will be for us here either.

With all that provided, I shall begin examining the Jr MU from the "Castle, King side." </Chess ref> *Suddenly realizes that this line would've been perfect for the Robin MU that was discussed here earlier. XD;*:


Match Vid references (all from actual tournaments):
Come on and Ban #22 - Winner Ro32: Andy_Sauro (Bowser Jr.) vs Z (King Dedede): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaxTjsC3U5k

Come on and Ban #28 - Winner Ro32: Andy_Sauro (Bowser Jr.) vs Pump Magic (King Dedede): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tkSm8QKtg4

Smash WiiU - WTT1 - Singles - W2 - LoS_Castro (Bowser Jr.) vs tG|DtB Lycan (King Dedede, Diddy Kong) (1st Match Only): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4eQFrmXW6E




It seems that this post I've made some time ago is proving to contain pivotal points for why a defensive Jr has it strong against the King. That Mechas, Cannonballs, and his numerous disjointed A button moves can all challenge & even beat Gordos certainly make using them incredibly risky, to the point of possibly taking away one of his most desired options. While I myself adore rushing down the King as Jr, this certainly makes the idea of a defensive Jr that refuses to go in without a sure opening quite viable, especially if wall-out short hop NAirs & especially BAirs & FAirs are used with this lameout style.

Keith's suggestion about using your Side B to hit Jr out of his Side B CAN actually work if Jr does NOT JC out of Side B and mash out NAir or FAir or airdodge or Up 1/2 afterwards, since the Side 1 Ram itself generally loses to your Side B as a whole (unless the Gordo hits his Car), though the Side 1 Spinout can beat Gordo if it doesn't land on his head.

As noted by Keith as well, picking up Mechas without airdodging or dash attacking into them is surprisingly hard for us. DTilting them, as fast as it is, can sometimes lead us into the explosion, which is bad for us. FTilt, if started early enough, can OHKO them, but I wouldn't trust that to happen reliably. Jab loses to it, as Pump Magic found out the hard way at 01:10.

It's very nice to read that many of you here are aware of what his Side B Jump Cancels can do for him, so I won't have to go too deep into how it works here (plus my link at the top of this post provides that type of intel), but it's an important part of his punishing abilities, which I'll get to next. Before I continue on, I would like to confirm that sniping his squishy head for headshots whenever you can is key for maximizing damage & knockback dealt to him, and your multiple jumps, as vulnerable as those will leave you for his vicious UAir sharking strings, can help with hovering around his head (especially when you're trying to catch him off-stage post Up 1/2 for the sourspot NAir gimp).

From the Charizard MU Thread:

The UAir sharking mentioned above after the SH Side B Ram --> JC, specifically for Triple D, can start as early as 0%, due to how heavy you are & how large your body is, essentially making the traditional 0% juggle sequence stated above unnecessary. Thankfully, you can survive the Up --> A (Hammer) finisher with good DI a little longer than the 100-ish% range that Zard has, provided it happens at the center of a stage with a normal ceiling size and not at the edges of it.

To modify that last sentence a bit for us penguins, your Jab is a 10 framer, and your DTilt is 6 frames, so you don't even have those to compete with Jr's Jab & DTilt in terms of sheer speed.

We can definitely stuff his Side B quite well, as Cook noted, for Jab & FTilt are some of our best options for doing so, but don't get too predictable with it, for he'll start JC-ing out of Side B earlier in anticipation of it. 'Course, if you can condition him to do so, you can then forgo the FTilt and either use FAir/BAir/NAir (if he's under you) if he takes to the skies, or even delay the timing on your FTilt. DTilt may be your fastest ground option, but there is a risk that you'll trade with his Side B. If you have it, Up 2 when Guard Cancelled into can work as well.

If you get caught in his Jab string, mash Jump while DI-ing upwards (whether away or towards) to try to minimize the damage you take from it.

Edgeguarding the Koopa Prince when he's off-stage is definitely going to be one of your strongest points in this MU, despite Jr being able to recover either high or low, a luxury that many in the cast wish they had. While chucking Gordos while you're on-stage may not be as good here as it would be in other MUs, you do have the hang time, recovery distance, and aerial range to physically challenge him off-stage. Jr is indeed quite gimpable if you read which direction he'll take for his recovery. Hovering above his head when his only resource left is Up 1/2 and sticking out a sourspot NAir should work as well for you as it does for Duck Hunt. Neutral 1 can work in that moment as well, especially if you're up a stock for the Dededecide. However, let it be said that Jr's Side B JC can help him survive Dededecides better than many others can, should he actually break out of it before he loses his stock to it.


Custom Loadouts:

Jr will likely run one of these decks: 1111 (!?), 1211, 1121, 1221, 1113, 1213, 1123, 1223. I personally would pick 1123 for most stages, and 1223 for Castle Siege, Delfino, and even Smashville. 1312 or 1322 is for Lylat Cruise.

From the Zard MU Thread, though slightly modified for us:

However, unlike with Zard, Big Mechas are more threatening to you, because not only is your overall movement speed slower than his, but all Gordo types will easily lose to it even more than it already does to default Mechas, due to Big Mechas being, well, big. This MIGHT be preferable over Down 1, due to how much harder it is for you to steal it in comparison to many others in the cast, as well as how much easier it can be for Jr to block off Gordos and even secure the KO with it.


Triple D will likely want 3322 or 2322 or 1322 or 3312 or 2312 or 1312. I personally would pick 3322.

Dedede Storm may handle Jr's Side 1 and Down 1 if started up early enough, but it's not going to gimp Jr post Up 1/2 as easily as Bowser or Charizard's Neutral B moves would, because even just 1 hit of it will give Jr his Clown Car back, which is NOT what we penguins want.

Neutral 3, Taste Test, would probably be the Neutral B of choice here, because of its quick start-up in comparison to the other Neutral B moves. It swallows even fully charged Cannonballs harmlessly (though you may be left open to Side B Rams), though swallowing Mechakoopas will hurt you and also leave you open to Side B Rams. TT also bodies Jr's Side B when its starting up, but TT will lose to his Side B if he pre-emptively Jump Cancels it or it's already past its start-up & he's driving towards you. You may not be able to Dededecide him with this move, but you can certainly set him up for an edgeguarding attempt while building damage on him (and put him under the stage with it if there's no walls like at Smashville or T&C).

Side 3, Bouncing Gordo, is what I'd pick for the least reflectable of the 3 Gordos, since its overhead arc can help it sail over Cannonballs and Default/Big Mechas that are walking on the ground, as well as serve as a 45 degree angled anti-air that reaches out farther than our Side 1 does. It can control more horizontal space than Side 1, and if it gets reflected into you, it won't hurt as much.

Rising Dedede (Up 2)'s landing lag if you DON'T reach the freefall state is horrendous, but it's actually quite short if you DO reach that state. Its active hitbox on our way to snapping the ledge (which it is really good at doing, provided you don't hold down while it's active, unless you're trying to use it as a sneaky beyond-the-ledge anti-air KO move at high enough percents) will be very helpful for dealing with Jr's seemingly-to-the-ends-of-the-earth length he can go for the edgeguard against you, much like what you can do to him, especially with its super armor starting on frame 2, though it ends on frame 7. It grants us a surprisingly quick Guard Cancelling/OoS option, which we normally lack, and if Jr's not careful enough during his edgeguarding attempts, this can stage-spike him.

Down 2, Armored Jet Hammer, will let us walk through Mechakoopas, Cannonballs (not Air Cannons :<), Side B Rams & Jump Cancelled aerials, and even Up B in general. Grounded A button moves too can be walked through, but we DO take full damage from everything that hits us while AJH is active. It may not KO as early as Down 1 or possibly Down 3 do, but having an armored way to get in on Jr is nice to have.

Jr's grab isn't very fast or as far-reaching as it should be (it's at least faster than Pac-Man's & Villager's grabs), nor are his payoffs all that great, so the threat of being grabbed out of it isn't too great, making it a neat option to use when you're trying to return to the stage from above. However, he may still attempt to grab you, ideally from behind, if you get predictable with it.

AJH will also make Jr think twice about chasing you upwards with Up B --> A (Hammer), because of how unflinchable you may be during AJH, and if you can land your hammer swing after tanking his from up high, you might be able to KO him for it if he's at 100+%.


Stage Picks: Banning FD/Omegas & Duck Hunt is definitely a good start, since we'll need platforms to get around his Mechas & Cannonballs.

Speaking of platforms, Battlefield/Miiverse/DL64 can provide us with some, as can Smashville (whenever the 1 platform is closeby) and T&C (before the FD transition, that is).

Castle Siege without Customs hamper Jr's Mechas & Cannonballs once the walk-off room shows up, though if the fight lasts long enough to go to the tilting FD room, that's where Jr gets to take the momentum from us. At least the 1st room has platforms in close proximity.

Lylat Cruise without Customs is a fine pick against Jr, for his (Big) Mechas will struggle to stay on the stage, his Side 1 & 2 go slower when going uphill, and his Cannonballs will sometimes hit the stage itself if it tilts the right way (in your favor, that is).

Halberd & Delfino are double-edged swords, for even though we have the high KO power to take advantage of the low ceilings, so does Jr. We are heavier than he is (especially if we take his squishy head into account), so we might be able to outlast him in the low ceiling stages (which DL64 and T&C also are).


Ratios:
WithOUT Customs: 55/45 Jr's favor minimum.

WITH Customs: 50/50 Even.

Uhh pretty much all this from the Jr perspective. Damn it Splooshy ya steal my thunder again.

 

[shrooby]

Joonya is done.

55:45


Ding dong~



I'll just say this now, in my mind, the MU is kinda in a similar thought path to Ike.
DDD wins neutral more, but DK gets more from winning neutral than DDD does. Resulting in...weirdness.
But let's see where this goes.

Discuss!

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Even pre-patch this match-up had that factor of, if DK hits me, he's going to carry me across the stage with back airs. This is an older set (and I make a lot of mistakes in it, especially game 1) but I think it represents some of the dynamics at play here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqodVAjWsCU

I think now that DK has the ding dong combo, the match-up is pretty solidly in his favor. Before, it was probably closer to even because DK would've had trouble killing Dedede outside of reads. Now DK can build damage faster and kill sooner, and that's a big thing.

We sort of want to be floating just outside of DK's range. Too close and we'll eat a bair or uair, too far we won't be able to punish DK unless he uses something really laggy.

You can kind of lob Gordo a bit more freely in this match, but you still have to be mindful of when and where - at one point I ate about 40% from throwing one right into a DK bair. In general you need to abuse Dedede's superior range and have your spacing be on point, as DK's frame data isn't too shabby and he can call us out for doing stupid things.

Edge-guarding DK, we really have one goal, and that's to hit him before he hits up b. Since Dedede's best edge-guarding options hit from the side, we can't challenge DK's up b with our best moves. We do have dair, but...lol, Dedede's dair. Other than that, DK's options are pretty limited so we can just do things to him.

Somewhere between 55:45 to 60:40 in 's favor feels right to me. I don't want to say it's too bad, since it is a fatty we're talking about and Dedede doesn't do too bad against those, but that grab combo is really good...especially since Dedede is so fat himself.

 

[Ridel]

Even pre-patch this match-up had that factor of, if DK hits me, he's going to carry me across the stage with back airs. This is an older set (and I make a lot of mistakes in it, especially game 1) but I think it represents some of the dynamics at play here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqodVAjWsCU

I think now that DK has the ding dong combo, the match-up is pretty solidly in his favor. Before, it was probably closer to even because DK would've had trouble killing Dedede outside of reads. Now DK can build damage faster and kill sooner, and that's a big thing.

We sort of want to be floating just outside of DK's range. Too close and we'll eat a bair or uair, too far we won't be able to punish DK unless he uses something really laggy.

You can kind of lob Gordo a bit more freely in this match, but you still have to be mindful of when and where - at one point I ate about 40% from throwing one right into a DK bair. In general you need to abuse Dedede's superior range and have your spacing be on point, as DK's frame data isn't too shabby and he can call us out for doing stupid things.

Edge-guarding DK, we really have one goal, and that's to hit him before he hits up b. Since Dedede's best edge-guarding options hit from the side, we can't challenge DK's up b with our best moves. We do have dair, but...lol, Dedede's dair. Other than that, DK's options are pretty limited so we can just do things to him.

Somewhere between 55:45 to 60:40 in 's favor feels right to me. I don't want to say it's too bad, since it is a fatty we're talking about and Dedede doesn't do too bad against those, but that grab combo is really good...especially since Dedede is so fat himself.

This might be a good match to observe when it comes to this MU that's more recent.

 

[miniada]

55:45 DK's ding dong is imo gone since dedede is heavy. Dedede can combo dk hard. He out ranges Him. And he can wall him out with Gordo that is something dk can't deal with. He can gimp dk to. And DK is mad easy to punish.

 

[Axel311]

Let me say first of all, I LOVE this matchup. My third favorite only behind Bowser and Gannon. I feel that Dedede wins solidly against the other heavies because he can camp, and gordo wall can really exploit their lacking approach options.

I've always had a very easy time with DK compared to the vast majority of the cast. Have I played any amazing DKs? Maybe not, but and nobody really mains him in my area so I've not played DK in a live tournament. I'm just going off of DKs I've played on Anther's Ladder and even some decent ones I've ran into on For Glory.

I have always felt Dedede wins solidly if he camps hard. My plan is always to zone DK out with gordos, ftilts, jabs and bair as my main tools. Stay back, force DK to approach. Walking with Dedede is super important here. Walk, don't run to close the gaps between you and DK. This lets you get out a quick Ftilt in time if he tries to dash grab. Or if he leg spams, shield and punish. Use gordo wall, especially up gordos to pin him to the edge of the stage. Also utilize all 3 gordo bounce types for mixup reasons. Keep DK just at the tip of Ftilt range where he can't get to you.

I understand that wifi can make gordos harder to deal with than offline, but I have a great internet connection and usually don't experience any noticeable input lag on Anther's so I don't think it has been a big difference maker in my experiences. Either way it's a consideration I'm taking into account.

DK has big issues with gordo because his hurtbox is so big and his reflect options other than bair aren't very good. He just has approach issues in neutral that a campy Dedede can exploit. Really, how does DK get in against a campy Dedede? I really don't see how this could be in DK's favor if Dedede is playing defensively because DK can't get in.

DK's ding dong really doesn't make a big difference in this matchup in my view. Just play not to get grabbed...camp hard and zone.

Also DK's excellent offstage game is in large part negated as Dedede can in large part avoid it with his multiple jumps and great up B recovery.

60:40

 

[Flawed]

I'll go with the 60:40, get discussion flowing - likely not 60:40 but clearly DK favor.

I'd even argue that the match above was only so close because @Jdawg was playing amazing. I have had somewhere around 12 sets of D3 vs DK.

We outrange Donkey Kong technically however he has range as well
We are slow on the ground and air and Donkey Kong is actually pretty fast. He also has a viable burst option within dash attack.
We do not have any moves that grant us super armor besides uptilt (doesn't really count) while Donkey Kong has Up b which has invincibility even in the air for a tiny bit and Giant punch as both armor and a clutch factor.
We rely on shields a lot,and lack safe shield pressure options from the ground. Donkey Kong has hand slap, which basically forces us to take the hit instead of eating a shield break punish which usually is death.
As seen in the video above, we can throw out inhales to catch Donkey Kong when he is feeling pressured. But in my tournament experience Donkey Kong can just up air our inhale and it breaks him out of the inhale animation while we get hit.
We get free dthrow combos for a lot longer than we should. But it goes both ways, cargo upthrow can get us for quite a bit. Juggles can continue because he has the speed/mobility to follow and up air again, and again, should we chose not to go to the ledge.
Donkey Kong has down tilt. A true viable grab setup unlike our double jab which Average Joe could have EASILY jumped out of.

Donkey Kong can approach with back air, he can dash up and tomahawk grab- jab, and even get the psuedo chaingrab at lower percents, provided the D3 doesn't jump away instantly. Dash attack is a great option, and depending on where and when you hit it, it combos into sourspot fair.

I don't use Pikachu for this matchup, I actually switch to falco. Why?

Because spiking DK is the way of the future.

Basically, once hes offstage, hes fair game for gordo traps, and destructive down air/back air.

I encourage you guys to play as DK a few times to see what hes capable of, its actually alarming.

Edit 1: I played DK before he was buffed, and I thought the matchup was pretty close regarding the tools he had. Now that he has gotten a serious buff involving his best tool previously, I think its a clear favor for him. He is technically the better character.

 

[Gunla]

As per request of shrooby , I've been asked to place the MU discussion on hold.

With the latest patch having some potentially major effects on the game, it's been suggested that MU discussion wait to accomodate time for discovering the new things that lie in store.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

I play both characters, so I have a pretty good idea of how this plays out. Wario gets outranged, but Wario has far less endlag and better mobility, allowing him to punish D3 better. Bike and FAir pretty much stops most Gordo setups, so be careful and don't throw that out. Wario's frame data is faster than ours despite his short range and his command grab is better than ours and because we're so much bigger, we get Wafted on and Chomped alot harder. Wario will never get KOd unless you can read and hit him really hard, such as BAir, NAir,etc. since his recovery is safer than ours even though he's not as heavy. Meanwhile, Wario has several true KO setups into Waft and he can afford to challenge us offstage more than we can him.

Wario really just has to camp out in this matchup and make D3 come to him and he wins by punishing D3's horrible endlag. D3's mobility is so bad both on the ground and in the air compared to Wario that Wario can just jump, run and ride around to charge Waft get a few hits in in the meantime to build up rage and he'll KO us with any of his Waft setups. Even Half-Waft KOs D3 at around 100%.

Also, Wario is one of those few characters that has tools that can completely stop our recovery. Since recovering deep is optimal for D3, Wario just has to angle his thrown Bike and it can intercept us and the edge unless we can react and get our Super Armor UpB out. Even then, this works on D3: http://smashboards.com/threads/wario-dash-attack-gimps.417124/ and it's easier to pull off on him, allowing Wario to safely edgeguard and gimp D3 without much effort.

I say 60:40 Wario. This MU isn't a good one.

Sorry that I'm so late to provide input.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

When are we gonna get this thing back on the road? Are we just waiting for December's broadcast at this point? shrooby ?

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

...AND WE'RE BACK.

Due to some changes in the DDD boards, this thread was closed awhile, but long story short, we're 'officially' opening it back it up.

DK is done at 55:45



Now, protect your food and get ready to clobbeh, because it's time for the arch-puffball himself, !

I personally have very clashing opinions on this MU and honestly see it as dead even.

Discuss!