Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Sir Lancelot]

https://youtu.be/gFqWxdMKWAA?t=6
Bruh. Even more reason to dtilt in neutral at higher percents. You can confirm into running up smash and running Dolphin Slash if they miss the tech, and foxtrot cancelled tipper fsmash with the spin animation.

 

[Vipermoon]

I've been doing DS and Usmash (and Fair for offstage) after Dtilt for over a year now. Even before this spin animation revelation, it's really hard for non-floaties to tech a sourspot Dtilt with the very low hitlag/hitstop not providing much time.

Luckily, Marth is one of the least affected by this 100%+ animation because when Marth takes knockback, his super low gravity value launches him at a higher angle and allows him to be pulled down at a slower rate than other characters. This means he'll often usually get out of hitstun before he hits the ground anyway, allowing him to tech or aerial out of the spin animation.

I rarely have to tech because of this. I just Nair right before hitting the ground, it saves many frames over a tech.

Edit: and if it's something with a low angle like Cloud's jab, just DI-up, then you still escape hitsun before the ground.

 

[Vipermoon]

Link

Just False doing Marth stuff

 

[DariusM27]

Link

Just False doing Marth stuff

That full hop fair to falling fair,
he did F H fair - fastfall - Fair - Fastfall.

Frame perfect. That's something I did a lot before the patch, but now it seems more difficult to pull off for some reason. And, they stop connecting after early percents.

However, I found out the other day that doing that input makes non top fair true combo to non tip fair. Not easy.

 

[Vipermoon]

That full hop fair to falling fair,
he did F H fair - fastfall - Fair - Fastfall.

Frame perfect. That's something I did a lot before the patch, but now it seems more difficult to pull off for some reason. And, they stop connecting after early percents.

However, I found out the other day that doing that input makes non top fair true combo to non tip fair. Not easy.

You're right. I played it at 0.25 and saw both FFs

 

[Sir Lancelot]

Is it possible to get landing fair to footstool like Corrin? Or does the knockback have too high of an angle?

 

[Vipermoon]

The knockback of Marth's Fair has too low of an angle. But sometimes you'd hit Fairs and they're still diagonal to you. At the point, the problem is there will usually not be enough hitstun. Hitstun comes from knockback and to get a footstool after Fair, there can't be much knockback. Still, you're opponent may very well let you get away with it.

Uair works great though so there's that instead.

 

[KillLock]

Marth definitely doesn't deserve to be top 10 like Dabuz says. That said, the results Marth has been pulling in mean a lot. The fact that he has got within the top 16 at a supermajor on a solo run means a lot, which is something certain characters haven't done, or haven't been doing for a long while (Falcon, Corrin, Luigi, Peach etc). I certainly don't think he's top 10, and most likely not top 15 either. I honestly feel around 18th-20th-ish would be a good spot for him, could be a spot or two higher.

And, if Marths are getting better at exploiting people's mistakes, doesn't that tell us that the Marth players have started to optimise his play? A big complaint about Marth before was that his punishes or ability to exploit mistakes was very iffy. If players are starting to do this on a more consistent basis, it tells us one of two things.

1. The Marth players have started to optimise his gameplay.
2. The buffs have allowed Marth to excel in an area he was previously lacking in.

It's most likely a mixture of the two if you ask me.

Edit: Also, yay, 1000th post. Only took me nearly a year lol.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Look at how Peach as a character was considered in Melee before Armada came around. Not even close to optimized so people thought she had already hit her plateau but we now know that couldn't have been more wrong. Before anybody gets ahead of themselves they should consider that there is still a lot of smash left in this game and there is still time to perfect playstyle.

IMO: Marth is a bit different in this game from other iterations hence why people have taken some time to adjust; his ground game is stronger than it has ever been, air game is still dangerous but is mostly a commitment and he still contains strong landing and air traps that were present long before. He doesn't really have to deal with too much when it comes to other characters disjointing him as he more or less can win any given situation if you just take what is presented(Space to poke shield or fair when they approach fading in or attacking) or back off when you think you're being baited into a bad situation.

His recovery is still strong and if used correctly is difficult to punish he also has monster tips from multiple moves that can land kills, such as last hit Dancing Blade(Both Up and Side variations), tipper hit boxes from Shield Breaker(An underused, amazing tool in neutral), tipper Upair, tipper Upsmash(Also a great move to challenge from below as it extends further than it ever has but alas is also is a commitment), tipper Fsmash, Ftilt and Bair, Tipper NeutralAir. His poke on shield is best in the game but only if used correctly and his edge guarding tool set is as good as it has ever been, Jab/Ftilt/Uptilt/Nair/full jump Upair/Fair/Bair to stuff jump from ledge, Downtilt/Ftilt/Dancing Blade/Grab/Up B to punish get ups, simply just standing there and throwing people back off stage from rolling up or punishing with Ftilt/Bair/Dancing Blade/UpB.

Lets not forget to mention his new Jab 1 which is honestly the best addition he's ever had, imagine Marth in Melee or Brawl with a Jab like that? Changes everything about neutral(No need to commit to a jump and it also doesn't last too long for a roll out/spotdodge/retreating Fair/Nair/empty hop or you can even go right into Jab 2 and maybe catch them dropping or jumping OOS). *Also unlike a lot of character his walking speed compliments his moveset by giving him position on opponents via micromovement, which can set you up for plenty of options, definitely another underused tool as people are dash happy as always.

From what I've observed I don't think any current Marth player on the board has taken full advantage of his toolkit but there are players who are moving in the right direction.

There's still a lot of wiggle room at the moment but only the dedicated ones will come to see that while the one's who look at what's on paper will continuously scratch their heads because they can never really comprehend it.

Apologies for the mess, but I thought I'd add a bit of my two sense in there.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Thought I would drop this in here, seeing as Marth possesses a Counter move.

https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/758935749127393280

Gotta try and think exactly what moves can be countered this way. For example, G&W's Dash Attack works because it has enough active frames, but this wouldn't work against Marth's Dtilt for example.

As I use Bayonetta also, this will be fun to mess around with when I figure out exactly which moves are susceptible to this.

 

[DariusM27]

Random question, does anyone know if capn douch i mean falcon's dthrow to knee combos are escapable with DI? I'm so freaking sick of getting killed with that.

 

[Vipermoon]

At kill percents if you DI away you can trade your Fair with sour Knee (that's as close as they can get to a knee). You can air dodge the knee but unless you are 100% in their head, never air dodge against his Dthrow is something I learned quick. At low percents it seems that the knee is guarenteed but Captain Douche players would rather get their four Uairs for douche levels of damage. DI-in at kill percent and he gets a free Bair.

I know this stuff because in the past few months I've had to deal with a good Falcon in my area who's really making a come up in Michigan. We went from having really close matches to me getting nearly bodied every time. I will be using Cloud for the MU from now on starting with today's tourney.

Bowserboy3 that's so cool! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Regarding Falcon, IIRC, Uair should also work in the same way as above, In fact, Uair can get you out of a lot of situations when facing Falcon, due to the fact that it's technically his fastest aerial, and it comes out in front of Marth, as opposed to just above him (Fair).

Of course Dolphin Slash would work due to the invincibility frames it grants, but if you have no safe place to land, you are probably going to die after you land to a powerful Smash, or even the Knee again. This is probably one of the better options on stages like Dreamland and Battlefield, as you can land on one of the platforms easier. Plus, with all the areas to land, it can become a guessing game for Falcon, especially if you are very close to the ledge of one of the lower platforms. Will you land on the edge, or will you go just to the side of it and land on the floor? It's a niche thing you can remember on Smashville and Town and City. NEVER do this on FD. You WILL be punished.

But in general, Fair or Uair with away DI like mentioned above is probably the best option. I too, have a similar experience with an extremely good local Falcon. The first time we played, I used Rosalina the first game, and Marth the next, but got swiftly 2-0'd. The second time we played, I actually swiftly 2-0'd him with Marth (this was the first time using 1.1.4 in tournament [the end was super awesome; my sour Fsmash somehow clashed with his Falcon Kick, andI then finished with a tipper Fsmash). Now, we tend to have really close games; it's a really good friendly rivalry we have going on. I tend to use Marth against his Falcon now, even over Rosalina and Bayonetta, and I win most of our encounters (he also uses Mario, so that's not really a great option to counter Marth, you see). I just seem to play much better in that matchup with him than the others. Jab is such a fantastic tool in general, but it's really helpful here, I feel. It's relatively easy to zone Falcon out with defensive play.

Could just be that I have decent experience in the matchup, but I never get why people seem to think Falcon beats Marth. Is this still the case? If so, why?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Double post because it's been too long and I can't wait forever...

What about Leo at Smash Factor 5? I must say, I was pretty impressed he was able to 3-0 bracket reset Mr R in Grand Finals using Marth.

Is Leo the best Marth right now? I certainly think so. Like, I love False, so my heart want to say he's the best, but Leo is just so good with Marth. His movement and spacing rivals False. Then we have players like Mr E who manage to outplace False at supermajors, so it's not looking good for him unfortunately. Still love you False.

Leo just needs to travel more. I know there are still some people sceptic on Marth's true viability in the US. Leo would certainly change that.

If I were to rank the current Marth players by how much I genuinely like them, it would be as follows:

False > Leo > Pugwest/Fuwa > Mr. E

I totally respect what Mr. E has done with Marth, don't get me wrong, but I dunno... it's hard to put into words.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah Leo is running that better player syndrome but at the same time, his pure Marth skill is excellent. He loves the character - it's his favorite in Smash; and he has the most optimal Dancing Blade around.

 

[ElementUser]

Seeing these Marths place high in Tournament gives me faith in the character again :D

 

[Bowserboy3]

I've personally had faith in Marth since his buffs in February. However, what he's done since them has far exceeded my expectations. He just keeps on doing more and more, and when people go on about "oh Marth isn't viable, he's still not good", more and more proof just keeps on coming better than the last to completely disprove this. First we start seeing him in tournament. Then he starts getting decent placements, like 17th. Then he starts taking top names, such as VoiD, Nairo and even ZeRo. Then he gets a 9th. Then Leo wins Smash Factor 5 using primarily Marth.

Like, I very much expected Marth to be much more viable after the buffs, and we'd start seeing him place higher in tournaments, but I didn't expect things like Mr.E's 9th, or Leo's performance for example.

It too, gives me hope. My aim is to get to the top 8 of my next monthly using Marth. I'm already known for having the best Marth in my area, but I do tend to swap between my other characters during tournament (Rosalina and Bayonetta [Bayonetta mainly the case at my last monthly]. My ZSS is still in a learning curve, but she's now about tournament ready). Next time, I want to use Marth only during brackets (considering I get out, but I usually do... gotta be confident!). It'll be a nice challenge.

---
Another thing... though I'm super late to the party, I finally decided now is the time I master Perfect Pivoting (even if it was mainly for the reason I wanted to do PP Utilt with ZSS...). I have been practicing for a couple of days now, and I'm semi-decent at them, but that's beside the point...

My question is, what are the best applications of the Perfect Pivot for Marth? I can already see that Foxtrot PP Dtilt is something I will be using a lot. What else can I do with Perfect Pivoting with Marth?

 

[Vipermoon]

I believe the Marth hype will die once people learn the matchup. They never needed to before his last buff patch and it was mainly because the Marth players weren't good enough. I don't agree with these 11th placings top players have been putting him at in their tier lists.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I personally feel Marth is good, but certainly not 11th place good like top players are putting him as. I personally feel somewhere around 16th-18th~ish place is a more fitting, realistic place for him, when considering everything as a whole, such as his neutral, strengths, weaknesses, and results etc.

 

[Halifax?]

I feel like Marth is one of the most convenient characters in the game disregarding having to space perfectly. He has the mobility and attributes to where I often find myself thinking "I don't have to worry about this particular thing like most people do." Then again maybe that's just me really liking Marth.

 

[CURRY]

Yo
Moving into a dorm room soon. I'm going to bring a CRT TV from home for my Wii, but I will of course bring my WiiU for Smash 4.
I'm thinking of using my computer monitor to play Smash 4 because it's still a fairly large display, and I don't want to bring two TVs.
Is there anyone doing the same thing? Playing on the WiiU using a computer monitor?
Are there any good adapters or whatnot I could use to do this?

 

[FallenHero]

Anyone have tips on how to deal with someone who gets too close to you? I know up b is a good out of shield option, but if you end up whiffing it for whatever reason you will just get punished, and d tilt doesn't really come out fast enough to keep out opponents when they get close.

 

[DariusM27]

Anyone have tips on how to deal with someone who gets too close to you? I know up b is a good out of shield option, but if you end up whiffing it for whatever reason you will just get punished, and d tilt doesn't really come out fast enough to keep out opponents when they get close.

First off, sometimes, there's just about nothing you can do. If you let yourself get backed into a corner, you basically will just have to sit and watch as marth takes 3 to 6 hits to the KO, and try to avoid that situation next time.

If you are decending, you need to read correctly what they will do - roll, attack anti air, shield, or perhaps spotdodge.
You have to get the read in time to exicute a plan of action.

Same goes for the following scenario, say you are vs Mario and he approaching with shield a lot.
Sometimes you have to go for the grab very quickly, because if you hesitate they will punish your hesitation.
If you watched Leo vs Mr R, Leo got an astounding and impressive number of grabs on Mr R, which cut Sheiks advantage in half.
If a character can shield for free on you, they win.

 

[FallenHero]

First off, sometimes, there's just about nothing you can do. If you let yourself get backed into a corner, you basically will just have to sit and watch as marth takes 3 to 6 hits to the KO, and try to avoid that situation next time.

If you are decending, you need to read correctly what they will do - roll, attack anti air, shield, or perhaps spotdodge.
You have to get the read in time to exicute a plan of action.

Same goes for the following scenario, say you are vs Mario and he approaching with shield a lot.
Sometimes you have to go for the grab very quickly, because if you hesitate they will punish your hesitation.
If you watched Leo vs Mr R, Leo got an astounding and impressive number of grabs on Mr R, which cut Sheiks advantage in half.
If a character can shield for free on you, they win.

I guess I'll just have to use up b out of shield then. I rarely ever use this option because I am always afraid that they will just shield it and I'll get punished, but I'll try to use it a little more. Usually when I am above the stage trying to get back down, I wait for my opponent to try to jump toward me and then I either down air them or I just fast fall to the stage and it works out almost every time. I've also figured out that with Marth's run speed and walk speed I can sometimes get my opponent out of my face by just straight up running away and then jumping over them to regain stage control, but it is kind of a risky move so I usually just run away and then SH bair.

 

[FallenHero]

Sorry to double post, but it has been a while since the last post. Isn't up tilt > up air and up tilt >back air supposed to be a true combo? It works all the time in training mode, but when I try to do it on a player they are able to air dodge the up air and bair the second I press the jump button. Also I know this is an old problem, but I am still bothered about how Marth is pretty much missing hitboxes on moves where the animation clearly shows him swinging.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sorry to double post, but it has been a while since the last post. Isn't up tilt > up air and up tilt >back air supposed to be a true combo? It works all the time in training mode, but when I try to do it on a player they are able to air dodge the up air and bair the second I press the jump button. Also I know this is an old problem, but I am still bothered about how Marth is pretty much missing hitboxes on moves where the animation clearly shows him swinging.

What percent range are you doing it at? At 0%, it definitely won't work because the opponent won't be put into enough hitstun.

Try at around 20-40%, that usually works.

 

[FallenHero]

What percent range are you doing it at? At 0%, it definitely won't work because the opponent won't be put into enough hitstun.

Try at around 20-40%, that usually works.

I wasn't really paying attention to my opponent's % when I was trying to go for those combos, so that was probably what the problem was.

 

[NinfanNanz]

Sorry to double post, but it has been a while since the last post. Isn't up tilt > up air and up tilt >back air supposed to be a true combo? It works all the time in training mode, but when I try to do it on a player they are able to air dodge the up air and bair the second I press the jump button. Also I know this is an old problem, but I am still bothered about how Marth is pretty much missing hitboxes on moves where the animation clearly shows him swinging.

While this isn't technically a missing hitbox, it's still annoying that Bair and uptilt can miss due to them both starting too far in the z-axis. Prime example is in Shine 2016, Mr. E just barely missing Zero in the first game.

 

[DariusM27]

While this isn't technically a missing hitbox, it's still annoying that Bair and uptilt can miss due to them both starting too far in the z-axis. Prime example is in Shine 2016, Mr. E just barely missing Zero in the first game.

In all fairness, Mr E should have known it would have missed and gone for another option. Or, he could have input
-fastfall
-bair
-fastfall
, which would have connected.
He could have taken that tourny. He played amazing some games and made kind of simple mistakes that cost him games.

 

[NinfanNanz]

Diddy's shield pops up before Mr. E Fastfalls it looks like, so I am not sure that would be a guaranteed hit, but then again, I can't tell if Mr. E fast fell as soon as possible. Dair would have most likely connected, but I don't think Mr. E counted on Diddy's head moving completely out of Bair's range.

 

[CURRY]

Although Mr. E is deceptively far away from Diddy, he's really close to Diddy horizontally. Look at the picture and think about where he would be if he just straight up fastfall lands without going left. It's just a "bad spacing hitbox" that shouldn't affect us too much.

Although lol, maybe I should just bair in neutral more. I just keep doing fair until the opponent starts fullhopping or something.

Random thought though, walk up -> ftilt is so weird. At the beginning of the match, IF you and the opponent are both grounded, this just closes lots of space between you two, letting your opponent not have much time to think, and stuffs out (or at least is safe against) so many possible options because ftilt cooldown is so fast. Unless your opponent knows 100% that you're going to walk up and ftilt, it's so good...

It makes me feel bad though, that walk up -> ftilt at the beginning of the match is practically the only time I use Marth's superb walking speed. Walking just feels weird in the middle of a match.

 

[FallenHero]

One of my friends recently picked up Greninja and I've been having a lot of trouble in the match up. During the neutral I am not really allowed to do SH aerials as much as I can against other characters, because Greninja can punish jumps hard with a lot of his tools (I still have PTSD from when I got up tilted into 4 up smashes from 0% and I couldn't escape except for maybe after the third one). I try to just play the ground game and space him out so I keep stage control, but it is hard to hit Greninja sometimes with how low he is on the ground and he also discovered how to spam water shuriken almost exactly like how Melee Falco players use lasers to make it very difficult to approach and to apply pressure from range. I also have the same problems against his Greninja, but I just want to learn how to better deal with him as Marth right now. Funny how when he was just starting to use Greninja, I told him to keep playing Greninja, and now me and the rest of my friends don't have any fun when he plays Greninja now.

 

[ElementUser]

Welp, looks like Marth is top tier now according to ZeRo! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssihmHoME_k&feature=youtu.be&t=42m

(bottom of top tier, but still!)

 

[Bowserboy3]

Marth's placement on ZeRo's tier list should be taken with a HUGE pinch of salt.

For one, something I noticed in the same video, is that while he claimed Marth/Lucina to be top tier, he never actually referred to them when talking about other characters like he did for everybody else. For example, when talking about Sheik, he said Mario and Lucario can give her a hard time. When talking about Rosalina, he said that Bayonetta can potentially give her a hard time. When talking about Mewtwo, he said he makes Mario's life hard, etc, etc, etc. Not once did he mention Marth or Lucina when talking about the other top tiers, but mentioned almost all the others. He didn't even say anything like "Marth does well against X, Y and sometimes Z top tier characters", or even "Marth struggles agsinst A and B", in particular. He kind of just left that information out. He did mention them once, but that was just to say the Rosalina is obviously far better than them.

While this is personal opinion, I do believe Marth does have some notable matchups with the top tiers that he could have alluded to. That fact that he didn't implies that he doesn't think Marth/Lucina has any notable matchups against the other top tiers, so why has he placed them in the top tiers with them? It would have just made more sense to place them at the top of the high tier.

While I believe Lucario does have a firmer basis to be that high, I am slightly inclined to believe that ZeRo's placements of Marth and Lucario are clouded judgement based on recent happenings (Mr E and Day beating him for example). On one hand, the fact that these characters can compete against a top tier character like Diddy, and one of the best players in the game speaks volumes about their viability. On the other hand, I can't help feeling that he's being a little rash in their placements, and blowing their true viability out of proportion. Lucario, I can somewhat accept, and see the reasoning behind him being top tier. Marth, I just can't yet.

I personally think he should have left Marth at the top of high tier. Like, I don't see Marth anywhere below around 18th-19th in my opinion right now, and I would definitely call him a high tier character. Even 13th place, but in high tier, I would be a bit better with, but labelling him as a top tier? Nah, I'm not seeing it.

also Rosalina at number 1 welp

 

[Vipermoon]

https://twitter.com/SS_MrE/status/772560973962047489

This is what Mr. E thinks about Marth and Lucina's placements. As you can see, he doesn't think very highly of them. I partially agree with the placement.

Anyway...

This vid is hilarious. Make sure you watch until the end (victory/results screen)

 

[Bowserboy3]

See, with everything Mr E and all other Marth players have been doing, I'd say he's blatantly downplaying Marth there, but hey, what do I know?

It is hard to rate your own character when in the public eye like that, though. It seems that they are either accused of ranking their characters too high, or too low, and in this case, I feel too low.

When there's conflicting opinions like this around, I don't think we'll be reaching a common consensus on Marth for a little longer. Though, it does seem like people are now willing to accept him as at least a high tier character. I honestly don't feel like high tier is overplaying Marth's skills either.

(top tier however is...)

---
Vipermoon , this must be the top tier Marth ZeRo was talking about.

 

[DariusM27]

I forget, what ways can Marth jab lock? I know Vex does a weak hit ftilt off a platform to jablock. Thanks
Edit-
Nevermind found it
"

Dash attack, Shield Breaker, D-air, F-tilt, Dolphin slash- all these jab lock

"

So, what percents does it work at?

 

[Litany]

I forget, what ways can Marth jab lock? I know Vex does a weak hit ftilt off a platform to jablock. Thanks
Edit-
Nevermind found it
" "

So, what percents does it work at?

https://smashboards.com/threads/jab-locking-in-depth-research-and-discussion-updated-values.400425/

 

[Bowserboy3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGQrHNE1by0&t=5m9s

I have thought Marth does quite well against Cloud for a long time now, potentially even having a slight advantage.

To hear this from a top player makes my day.

 

[DariusM27]

Cloud has advantage imo, but it's not impossible

 

[JayE]

Cloud vs Marth is a matchup I enjoy, its pretty fun. Both of them can combo each other pretty well, both can kill early.
Usually when I face Clouds, when they're offstage, just go for down tilt and if you time it correctly, Cloud will meet an early doom. Marth dominates Cloud offstage, but onstage Cloud may have the upper hand.