Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

Why can't you enter Shaya? I'm assuming you're just too late.

I'm all registered for TBH6 including hotel. Can't wait. This time Smash 4 gets a full sized ballroom like Melee had so no more 500 entrants cap - we at 2000.

 

[Locuan]

Ah. Well I'll try watching it and see how I like it.

TBH6 Smash 4 sounds like it will be an insane tournament.

 

[ReRaze]

What anime is your sig/avatar from and why haven't I binged watched it?

Re:Zero kara Hajimeru Isekai Seikatsu or Re:Zero for short.

ASDFXVCBQYQETS GO WATCH IT NOW. IF YOU LIKED STEINS GATE YOU'LL DEFINITELY LIKE THIS.

Also Shaya 's right this show will definitely make you cringe...It's painful to watch sometimes...

 

[Bowserboy3]

Dabuz think's Marth is top tier. In the "What characters do you think are in the top tier right now?", under the VGBootCamp video.

http://www.thescoreesports.com/smas...-could-win-evo-but-any-of-them-could-get-49th

Lol.

 

[KillLock]

He isn't wrong.

 

[Locuan]

Good day for Marth.

Edit: Eh, it seems things happened behind the scenes and yea... dunno what to think.

 

[ReRaze]

Well Mr.E beating ZeRo and Pugwest beating Tweek doesn't help go against Dabuz's statement lol

 

[Bowserboy3]

I still look at Marth's moveset, and see it's flaws and think "how can THIS be top tier?"

Sure, I think that perhaps high tier isn't out of the question, not with all the rep and results Marth has been getting lately. It's exciting.

 

[ReRaze]

I still look at Marth's moveset, and see it's flaws and think "how can THIS be top tier?"

Sure, I think that perhaps high tier isn't out of the question, not with all the rep and results Marth has been getting lately. It's exciting.

Yeah I agree, I don't think he's quite top tier yet, and also Marth is good but there are definitely characters that are better.

and yeah haha it's definitely exciting too, the hero king is on his way back to his former glory


(well....maybe not really, melee marth is broken )

 

[DariusM27]

Marth isn't top tier. The best Marth players are carrying their character, rather than most players who's character carries them.

 

[PK Gaming]

It's been a pretty good month for Marth, huh?

He's had excellent tournament results these past few weeks, coupled with folks having a higher opinion of him overall

High tier prestige achieved :')

High tier prestige has definitely been achieved at this point

But seriously though, forget about his tier placement; it just feels so good now that Marth is a good character. I actually wasn't particularly into the character before Smash 4, so it was a bummer when his launch self was pretty mediocre. But things are different now. Marth has had a good showing in tournaments for a while now, but that ended up culminating in his solid performance at Evo.

How do you all feel about it? It's been quite a journey since this game's launch.

 

[Bowserboy3]

High tier prestige has definitely been achieved at this point

But seriously though, forget about his tier placement; it just feels so good now that Marth is a good character. I actually wasn't particularly into the character before Smash 4, so it was a bummer when his launch self was pretty mediocre. But things are different now. Marth has had a good showing in tournaments for a while now, but that ended up culminating in his solid performance at Evo.

How do you all feel about it? It's been quite a journey since this game's launch.

For me, it depends on how you class "High Tier". If High Tier includes around 20th position, then I don't really have a problem.

 

[Vipermoon]

There are always characters doing things like this at major tournaments and they don't have to be high tier. But if Marth receives enough player support then he can reach high tier.

 

[Halcy0n]

Its always nice to see Marth get into the top 32 at EVO.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is definitely high tier - he sits in a pretty oppressive point of balance with nearly no one in the cast matching his range while cleanly outdisjointing basically everyone; this is a dangerous combination which he didn't possess in Brawl, he could outdisjoint most of everyone [including MK due to vertical considerations] but a third of the cast or more could legit compete with his range; Falco jab vs Brawl Marth and S4 Marth contrast is saddening.

To me it's silly, the people who complained about his range, they got what they wanted and people still think he isn't one of the strongest in the game / needs more to be viable?
The only character the range buffs feel justified against is Cloud (another super oppressively balanced sword disjoint character).

Marth player results keep getting better over time - to some extent I'm starting to see results that seem to out reach these player's perceived skill level (but hey, I'm biased).
He gets away with a lot of button pressing with minimal risk with the way his numbers are, and none of the Marth players have fully optimized his neutral (Mr.E and Pug [I got to meet and watch him play, really great guy who's obviously passionate for our guy] are both starting to really get it and will more dynamically adapt in the future I'm sure) and this will lead directly to stronger punish game as well.

His match ups with other high/top tiers are likely still sketchy, but even the "best" characters in the game have strong roadblocks. Attrition is still his weakness, but the moment momentum swings in Marth's favour IN ANY MATCH UP IN THIS GAME, NO EXCEPTIONS he is a menace who gets to dictate play however he wants to.

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't know how big high tier is but I can say this... Marth in Melee and Brawl is able to dictate the pace of a match. The fact that Marth has this power in Smash 4 says something. I watch these super fast top tier match-ups and I think "it's pretty impressive that Marth can slow this down." But yes, attrition is his weakness.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's abilities allowed to slow the pace of the game, but it was (at least in Brawl) through really precise timing and reaction - he needed to be on point to be safe as everything he had was reasonably whiff punishable.
He isn't as whiff punishable in this game as he is in Melee (against high tiers+) or Brawl. he dictates pace for "free" rather than through the pressure of smart attack usage.

This is a factor of hit lag neutralisation on shield and the shield stun increases - but the range that went from "similar to people in the cast" in Brawl to outranging everyone due to S4 increase and then the 15% range increase afterwards...
Not a smart way to do things.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Give him free neutral but let him not kill well.

Sounds like a plan.

A shame that such a calculated character can now swing with impunity.

 

[Vipermoon]

You guys are overrating that. Nothing magical happened recently. If shield stun is what makes him less whiff punishable, then it does that for every other character. Marth can't swing for free and even if he could, lots of other characters can too.

Shaya, you're making it sound like Brawl Marth bodied the cast less than S4 Marth does. We all know that isn't true. Also, did you drop Roy yet?

 

[Emblem Lord]

His neutral was pretty free in Brawl, but all top tiers were pretty free and silly.

There is less free stuff in this game.

Mario pretty free. Cloud and Yoshi too. Sonic. I feel thats kinda it. Grabs in general are pretty free tho.

 

[PK Gaming]

I understand where Emblem Lord and Shaya are coming from, but I'm more than okay with the overabundant buffs Marth received.

It's a combination of me loving the concept of fighting "fire with fire" (or jank with jank) and just Marth being more fun for me now.

15% more range? That's just way too sexy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His sweetspot basically goes past his actual sword.

It's kinda cray.

 

[Vipermoon]

See I initially thought that was cray too but then I saw Ike's hitbox visualization and pretty much ALL of his outer hitboxes go way past the sword. Then I saw the Melee-like hitboxes Captain Falcon, Ryu, and Fox/Falco get to play with and uh...

 

[Shaya]

10% bigger disjoint/sword range* from the recent buffs [on the specific moves], 15%~ on Fair since Brawl (nair though is 33% longer, lool)

How many characters can reliably punish Marth's strongest tools even with power shields? It went from many/most in Brawl to very few in 1.1.4.
Traditional counter play to Marth got reduced significantly (shield safety + safety on whiff = free-er swinging). Marth can definitely attack with a lot less consideration than most of the cast (I'm not talking about spamming), "lots of other characters can too." yeah high tiers. Also, don't put words into my mouth.

Define "drop". Roy is one of my favourite characters in this game, he is not as viable as other characters I am as good / better with; I enjoy pushing him further.

EL, it's not like he's super poor at killing (anymore / vs many others); his neutral is practically synchronous to his advantage state / ability to KO (beyond his defining trump card abilities; none of which were specifically buffed).
Jab is a brilliant move that is not that many shades worse than Diddy down tilt (but is also an anti-air and disjointed; 14f cooldown vs 20f [11f wait / 3f second hit], 4f v 5f start up).
Ftilt is one of the best in the game.
I think your point fits Lucina a lot better.

 

[Emblem Lord]

See I initially thought that was cray too but then I saw Ike's hitbox visualization and pretty much ALL of his outer hitboxes go way past the sword. Then I saw the Melee-like hitboxes Captain Falcon, Ryu, and Fox/Falco get to play with and uh...

Cool.

What happens if they swing a limb when Marth or any weapon user swings?

Oh....yea, the non weapon user loses virtually every footsie exchange button to button.

 

[Bowserboy3]

A lot of characters in the game have hitboxes that extend past their limbs/weapons, or just have huge hitboxes in general. It's odd, yes, but at least Marth isn't one of the odd one's out any more.

 

[Vipermoon]

Cool.

What happens if they swing a limb when Marth or any weapon user swings?

Oh....yea, the non weapon user loses virtually every footsie exchange button to button.

When I mentioned those characters I meant the level of disjoint they posses is insane. Marth is supposed to out-disjoint... he has this sword you know.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Jesus... somebody who is good with numbers and explanation, please come here and give this guy a lesson. He still believes that Marth, despite all of his buffs, and even after all the results he has got, is a bad character. No matter what you try and say to him, he always loops back to the neutral game, and and declares poor neutral = bad character. "Prove me wrong", is his common response, and there's not much you can do to counter that, because Marth's neutral is not optimised enough. He refuses to come here to discuss Marth because we are "all the same" (basically he's the only person with an outdated opinion).

I have tried to explain myself, but I will hold my hands up and say I am bad at numbers and explanation, and just make myself (and potentially Marth) look bad. Anybody care to enlighten this guy?

Here's a link - https://sw.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4t3ff5/spoilers_mr_e_vs_zero/d5g6zvm

I'd love nothing more than too see this guy suddenly realise that Marth is no longer a low tier character. Part of me thinks that he's just butthurt that Marth is no longer as good or "free" to use as in Brawl or Melee, or that he just can't use Marth in Smash 4, so he hates against him, but who knows.

I'm calling for some help here!

 

[PK Gaming]

Jesus... somebody who is good with numbers and explanation, please come here and give this guy a lesson. He still believes that Marth, despite all of his buffs, and even after all the results he has got, is a bad character. No matter what you try and say to him, he always loops back to the neutral game, and and declares poor neutral = bad character. "Prove me wrong", is his common response, and there's not much you can do to counter that, because Marth's neutral is rather underdeveloped. He refuses to come here to discuss Marth because we are "all the same" (basically he's the only person with an outdated opinion).

I have tried to explain myself, but I will hold my hands up and say I am bad at numbers and explanation, and just make myself (and potentially Marth) look bad. Anybody care to enlighten this guy?

Here's a link - https://sw.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4t3ff5/spoilers_mr_e_vs_zero/d5g6zvm

I'd love nothing more than too see this guy suddenly realise that Marth is no longer a low tier character. Part of me thinks that he's just butthurt that Marth is no longer as good or "free" to use as in Brawl or Melee, or that he just can't use Marth in Smash 4, so he hates against him, but who knows.

I'm calling for some help here!

Just ignore him.

He's using completely absurd arguments and downplaying tournament results/objective facts.

Ignore him. I mean it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just ignore him.

He's using completely absurd arguments and downplaying tournament results/objective facts.

Ignore him. I mean it.

It upsets me though. I'm passionate about Marth.

One day, he will realise.

 

[Vipermoon]

Seriously? How much time has it been? How many times have people tried to "enlighten" this troll? Why does it matter what this guy's opinion is!? Ignore it.

 

[Vipermoon]

After four Smash games w/Marth (incl. PM), when will we get it?

It's either Marth is bad otherwise Marth is stupid and people complain. This is how Marth's DESIGN works!

- Currently in Melee at the locals (mid) level, Marth is the goat and if you play an uncommon character, Marth ***** you. There are a lot of Marths, therefore you lose a lot.

- Similar to Brawl, as Brawl went on, many Marth secondaries popped up. Marth had a similar stigma to Melee that would have been more obvious had Brawl lasted longer.

- Right now in PM, Marth is one of the most used characters (despite not receiving a cool redesign like the Brawl newcomers did in PM).

- You just read the Marth complains for Smash 4 (I still think they are exaggerated all things considered).
________________________________________________________
Separately, this is a trend I noticed for Marth in competitive Smash:

- For a long time in Melee, Marth wasn't good for much except Fsmash and rolling. Many years past until Ken finally showed us the light.

- Marth had a slower start than most of Brawl's viable characters. Marth's results and tier list position got better over time and it's a shame Brawl died so quickly because Marth's potential wasn't fully realized.

- Project M had a similar situation where all of the hype were for the redesigned characters and only those that wanted to transfer their Marth skill used him. Now he's extremely popular showing that he doesn't need spacies to dominate.

- It's crazy that they allowed Marth to be so bad in the first few patches of Smash 4. Marth nearly drowned during those times where the only thing that ever stopped him from getting curbstomped was the Marth skill transfer effect (in a game that everyone sucked at at first). Of course, there's a lot about current Marth that is still gutted (hitbox issues, autocancels, weird throw knockback) making a moveset that, for the first time, is largely inconsistent. The last patch that buffed Marth is that most significant thing that helps him now and we didn't realized its aggregate significance until we got used to the hitbox placements and witnessed the truly good results Marth is finally getting with False, Leo, Mr. E, and Pugwest at the helm.

History apparently proves that Marth takes time to shine. I think I prefer it this way, it gives you a reason to stick with him.

 

[PK Gaming]

It upsets me though. I'm passionate about Marth.

One day, he will realise.

I can sympathize. It's hard to shake that feeling of annoyance when someone says something idiotic or uninformed about something you're passionate about.

But you'll sometimes run into people that you literally cannot reason with, no matter what you do. It's best to make a clean break, even if it's painful.

 

[Sir Lancelot]

Seriously? How much time has it been? How many times have people tried to "enlighten" this troll? Why does it matter what this guy's opinion is!? Ignore it.

Who is the troll you guys are referring to?

On a different note, if I remember correctly, Marth's down tilt's hitbox was lowered in a recent patch. Is it possible to 2-frame the opponent using it?

 

[Bowserboy3]

it gives you a reason to stick with him

Everything you said in this post is true. I'd stick with Marth no matter how good. He's basically my Smash character by this point, after all these years of using him.

Who is the troll you guys are referring to?

On a different note, if I remember correctly, Marth's down tilt's hitbox was lowered in a recent patch. Is it possible to 2-frame the opponent using it?

Reddit's QGuyBrian.

Down Tilt's hitbox was lowered down a little, yes. It's possible to 2 frame opponents with it, so in turn, you can now also hit an opponent hanging on the ledge without their invincibility.

---
Also, Dabuz released a post Evo tier list: https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/755201863612567552

Disregarding most of the bottom tiers, because it gets really messy, what do you think of Marth's placement? I personally feel this is too high. Sure, he's doing more than most of the characters below him, but I am uneasy about Marth being top 10. I'd feel nicer about it if he was just next to Villager, which I feel would be closer to the truth, but even then I feel it's debatable.

 

[Vipermoon]

Lol at the characters he put Marth in front of.

 

[Juaan]

So guys, for Marth do you use C-Stick for tilts or smash?

 

[DariusM27]

So guys, for Marth do you use C-Stick for tilts or smash?

Both have benefits. Cstick Smash may severely limit your ability to optimize your air movement and fastfalls, however, you can mostly avoid that by using A for falling air attacks and Cstick to fastfall - takes time to get used to but I like it a lot.

Tilt stick doesn't have very many shortcomings and is easy to use.

Also, the only reason Marth is getting this "high tier" recognition, even from Debuz, is that the best Marth's are just getting better at exploiting people's mistakes. But when a player like Dabuz doesn't make any mistakes, well... Marth probably doesn't deserve as high a rating.

 

[Sir Lancelot]

I used C-stick smash before I switched to tilts, and it feels so weird when I try going back, akin to switching from a wiimote to gamecube controller. Marth's laggy smashes don't really help, either.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Also, the only reason Marth is getting this "high tier" recognition, even from Debuz, is that the best Marth's are just getting better at exploiting people's mistakes.

Marth definitely doesn't deserve to be top 10 like Dabuz says. That said, the results Marth has been pulling in mean a lot. The fact that he has got within the top 16 at a supermajor on a solo run means a lot, which is something certain characters haven't done, or haven't been doing for a long while (Falcon, Corrin, Luigi, Peach etc). I certainly don't think he's top 10, and most likely not top 15 either. I honestly feel around 18th-20th-ish would be a good spot for him, could be a spot or two higher.

And, if Marths are getting better at exploiting people's mistakes, doesn't that tell us that the Marth players have started to optimise his play? A big complaint about Marth before was that his punishes or ability to exploit mistakes was very iffy. If players are starting to do this on a more consistent basis, it tells us one of two things.

1. The Marth players have started to optimise his gameplay.
2. The buffs have allowed Marth to excel in an area he was previously lacking in.

It's most likely a mixture of the two if you ask me.

Edit: Also, yay, 1000th post. Only took me nearly a year lol.