Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Reizilla]

It's no Steins;Gate, but still very much worth it.

 

[Locuan]

Oh Penguindrum? I hear about that alot but I still have no idea whether I want to watch it, on a scale of 1 to Steins;Gate how good is it ?

Steins;Gate is the best anime ever.

Also I'm fraud, I got 4th at the Arcadian today. I did beat the #9 on the PR though in Loser's Quarters with Corrin. I did learn from my mistakes, it's just they were so costly >_< I also need to learn the Greninja Match-Up. @Liberation please help~

But, I got some fancy Marth stuff on stream:
https://www.twitch.tv/atxsmash4/v/59433222?t=01h44m32s

 

[Vipermoon]

Steins;Gate is the best anime ever.

Also I'm fraud, I got 4th at the Arcadian today. I did beat the #9 on the PR though in Loser's Quarters with Corrin. I did learn from my mistakes, it's just they were so costly >_< I also need to learn the Greninja Match-Up. @Liberation please help~

But, I got some fancy Marth stuff on stream:
https://www.twitch.tv/atxsmash4/v/59433222?t=01h44m32s

That's cool, I have an arcadian today. I won't be getting 4th though.

 

[EnGarde]

Steins;Gate is the best anime ever.

Also I'm fraud, I got 4th at the Arcadian today. I did beat the #9 on the PR though in Loser's Quarters with Corrin. I did learn from my mistakes, it's just they were so costly >_< I also need to learn the Greninja Match-Up. Liberation please help~

But, I got some fancy Marth stuff on stream:
https://www.twitch.tv/atxsmash4/v/59433222?t=01h44m32s

Wait, PR'd people were allowed to play in your area's Arcadian? I thought the point of an arcadian was that PR'd people were not allowed to compete?

Either way, good stuff. 4th out of how many?

 

[Locuan]

That's cool, I have an arcadian today. I won't be getting 4th though.

Win~

Wait, PR'd people were allowed to play in your area's Arcadian? I thought the point of an arcadian was that PR'd people were not allowed to compete?

Either way, good stuff. 4th out of how many?

Top 8 were not allowed to play. Everyone else was able.

 

[Vipermoon]

It depends on how big your PR list goes. I know the entire MI PR isn't competing (but they how their own VIP friendly room, free entry, and other benefits so they're all here anyway)

 

[Reizilla]

If anyone is interested, Pugwest should be playing for top 8 winner's side at TGC7.

Twitch.tv/firenationsmash

 

[Shaya]

I got the holy grail KO on Marth (finally).
For MK it was killing with side-b from a set up without dying.

With Marth it was killing off the top with dolphin slash from a set up.
I got a sour up air at double jump height and they were 150%; I dolphin slashed and hit with the top of it and KO'd them.
Mission complete. I wonder what's the lowest percent that could KO at, I wasn't at high rage either (70%).

Time to find a new holy grail.
It's a shame it'll never happen with ROY #_#

 

[Vipermoon]

I wonder if it comboed into DS

Edit: also you got lucky and got the 74 degree angle. The sakurai is far more likely

 

[LancerStaff]

Say, I've been wondering... Are angled shields a problem for Marth? With 1.1.1 they made Marth's sourspots less safe then the tipper, and the sourspots take priority over the sweetspots. I haven't seen it used and I don't think I've ever heard anybody talk about it, so...

 

[FallenHero]

I think I am now starting to realize why I don't play as well as I used to now....because nearly every time I play this game at someone else's place, I am tired as **** from a lack of sleep throughout the whole week and by Friday I am exhausted and usually have a mild headache while trying to play.

 

[ReRaze]

I got the holy grail KO on Marth (finally).
For MK it was killing with side-b from a set up without dying.

With Marth it was killing off the top with dolphin slash from a set up.
I got a sour up air at double jump height and they were 150%; I dolphin slashed and hit with the top of it and KO'd them.
Mission complete. I wonder what's the lowest percent that could KO at, I wasn't at high rage either (70%).

Time to find a new holy grail.
It's a shame it'll never happen with ROY #_#

You could try killing off the top with the reverse DS hitbox in a situation where DS won't kill normally

 

[Shaya]

It's finicky to hit with the frame that allows that, and that's like a raw punish more so than something you set up

 

[ReRaze]

It's finicky to hit with the frame that allows that, and that's like a raw punish more so than something you set up

Perhaps the emoticon I used at the end was not sufficient or incorrectly used to display my sarcasm behind the idea of how unrealistic getting a kill like that is

Though maybe you can get it on the top platform of battlefield on someone as large and light as mewtwo with sourspot uair and a bit of rage...

 

[Shaya]

I mean, i've gotten it multiple times before. Free fall animation? SEND'R UP!

So it's not, like, a never will happen (in fact a lot more likely than what I was suggesting )

 

[ReRaze]

I mean, i've gotten it multiple times before. Free fall animation? SEND'R UP!

So it's not, like, a never will happen (in fact a lot more likely than what I was suggesting )

But a kill from a setup under 100%? Wait does this mean it is a plausible holy grail :O...or should I go back to theorising :')

 

[MarioMeteor]

I just killed Sheik at 66% with the final hit of Dancing Blade. This game is balanced.

 

[Vipermoon]

I just killed Sheik at 66% with the final hit of Dancing Blade. This game is balanced.

I've gotten a million early kills like that at the ledge even without much rage. The ledge helps you get tipper dancing blade and since you can't DI-up in this game, you die at the ledge super early. It makes DB really scary at the ledge. As far as balance goes, at this point, Marth needs to take advantage of every little thing. The winner is often the one who takes the stocks, no?

 

[MarioMeteor]

I've gotten a million early kills like that at the ledge even without much rage. The ledge helps you get tipper dancing blade and since you can't DI-up in this game, you die at the ledge super early. It makes DB really scary at the ledge. As far as balance goes, at this point, Marth needs to take advantage of everything little thing. The winner is often the one who takes the stocks, no?

I mean, Marth isn't anywhere near as bad as he once was. I'd even go so far as to say he's pretty good.

 

[Vipermoon]

Now this Marth is pretty good.

 

[CURRY]

Now this Marth is pretty good.

Beautiful. I waited for that cliche ending to happen, and it was satisfying.
Didn't someone joke about Witch-time Marth a few pages back?

On an unrelated note, I hate it when aerial dair sends the opponent straight up.

 

[LordShade67]

Aka Marth with Raiden's Blade Mode.

 

[Vipermoon]

ZeRo says it's both Pugwest and Mr. E. That's a solid choice but I still wonder about False. False seems to have superior skill as a player and a more optimal Marth. He doesn't solo main Marth and simply can't match the Marth results that the other two have received so he wouldn't make it on the list. Still, I wonder if he was forgotten. ZeRo apparently talked to the Marth Discord, I'm not sure who here is in that and what was said but yeah.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's been a while since I posted here...

It was my monthly yesterday. It was a modest 84 entrants. I managed to get 4th overall, using mainly Marth in bracket. I was pleased with the result anyway, but there were 3 different players who exclaimed "Oh, I never knew Marth could do that", or "wow, Marth is actually pretty good", so the fact that I left a good impression with Marth on some players makes me feel a winner, couldn't have asked for any more.

But of note, what's the Marth v Bowser Jr matchup like? It's one I have little expereience with, and the guy who knocked me into losers was a Bowser Jr player (in fact, I think he won the whole thing). What should I be doing as Marth in that matchup? What should I be looking out for?

 

[ReRaze]

Sweet dreams robin...

 

[DariusM27]

It's been a while since I posted here...

It was my monthly yesterday. It was a modest 84 entrants. I managed to get 4th overall, using mainly Marth in bracket. I was pleased with the result anyway, but there were 3 different players who exclaimed "Oh, I never knew Marth could do that", or "wow, Marth is actually pretty good", so the fact that I left a good impression with Marth on some players makes me feel a winner, couldn't have asked for any more.

But of note, what's the Marth v Bowser Jr matchup like? It's one I have little expereience with, and the guy who knocked me into losers was a Bowser Jr player (in fact, I think he won the whole thing). What should I be doing as Marth in that matchup? What should I be looking out for?

I think like most MUs, marth needs to just get reads for days and always be at his throat.
Literally make all the right decisions, always win when you approach and always win when he approached.

Specifically, if he uses the go cart dash, marth can counter that. A good bowser jr should be aware of that and will mix it up on you, but it's an option you must be aware of in that MU.

The best defense is a good/perfect offense. Get him off stage and keep him off, because if you let up the pressure even a little bit, he will frame trap you with projectiles and mess you up.

I'm sure there's way more to it, but that's my thoughts as of now.

Edit. Also, congratulations on that awesome performance. Please post the matches here if they were recorded.

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey Falchions, think I found something actually useful and it's Lucina exclusive. Well then it's probably not useful, a doh ho : P

Remember how Lucina's Utilt slides but Marth's doesn't? Found another like that, and like I said it's legitimately useful. I know because Pit can do it and I use it all the time. Jab 1 slides. Yeah okay Lucina's walking accel sucks but it's cool because 1: she gets the walking jab fake-out/CQC approach stuffer thing that Pit has and 2: I'm pretty sure this makes Jab > Fsmash easier and potentially opens up even more options.

 

[DariusM27]

Just confirming, there IS a maintenance running tonight, according to Nintendo's Smashbros page. It could be a balance patch, but there's a chance that it isn't a patch also. Dropping at 10pm Pacific, so 1am Eastrn
Just a heads up for people who might not know that the server will be down. Let's cross our fingers. I'm fine with nerfs to Bayo and Ryu, and/or Marth buffs. Either way

 

[Emblem Lord]

wait wait...why do you want Ryu nerfed? You actin like you facing world class ryus. There are literally about 11 or so Ryus on the planet that know what they are doing with the character. lol

 

[DariusM27]

wait wait...why do you want Ryu nerfed? You actin like you facing world class ryus. There are literally about 11 or so Ryus on the planet that know what they are doing with the character. lol

Shoryuken is broken. That simple. It's not that hard to do. Elbow to shoryuken, game over. Anyway, it's not up to me, so...

Side note/Marth tech observation I just made.

I suspected this before, but now I just confirmed it.

Here are two ways marth can dash into shield.
1. Dash away, and immediately dash toward opponent into input shield shield. (dash dance, not trot dance)
2. Just normal dash into immediate input shield.

Starting from the exact same point in the stage, no. 1 has shield come out a bit more than a whole width of marth sooner.
It might be a handy thing to do if you are already planning on running into shield anyway.

This might have been mentioned long ago, but just in case it hasn't, there it is.

Dash dance before shield seems to kill some of the start up dash animation, allowing shield to work before traveling as far down the stage.

 

[Vipermoon]

..............

Dash dance before shield seems to kill some of the start up dash animation, allowing shield to work before traveling as far down the stage.

Two possibilities:
- Dashing away will put Marth at a further distance from where he started making it only look like the shield came earlier but, in reality, it's the same time and running distance only from the starting position of the dash dance away
- Dash dancing then running the other way doesn't restart the initial dash frames

Two outcomes:
- Shield comes out at an earlier distance from the original starting position but takes longer due the dash dance frames
- Shield comes out on the same frame thanks to carry-over initial dash frames from the dash dance while also at an earlier distance

 

[DariusM27]

In any case, if you need to shield at a very close range, this might be good to know about. The time for the dashdance is necessarily negligible, relatively.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Speaking of Dash Dancing (in Smash 4), I've been a lot more, Dash Dancing away from a situation, and dancing back in to punish. Let me give an example.

Lets say Fox Dair's my shield. As opposed to throwing out a move when he lands, dodging or grabbing, I've been using the Smash 4 Dash Dance to dash away, then come back in and punish. I tend to use this more as a mix up or a mindgames thing. Take my example; when Fox Dair's my shield, he is going to go on the defensive. The moment he sees me run away, he'll more than likely try and pursue me. However, I dance back in with a grab, aerial or Dancing Blade (even a Dolphin Slash on occasion) because he isn't expecting it. Doing this I find is a good mix up. Perhaps the first few times, instantly grab or attack, but on the 3rd or 4th try, try this. It's surprising how often this works.

In a similar fashion, if I know the opponent is going to try and come down with an aerial, rather than just using Utilt or Uair, or simply just shielding, I have been Dash Dancing out and then back in to punish their landing. Dash Dancing away and back in with Dancing Blade is such a good tool I feel.

Luckily for me, my two main characters (Rosalina and Marth) have pretty easy to do Dash Dances; their timing is rather quick and fluid. Rosalina's is even easier to do than Marth's, and his is easy.

 

[Shaya]

wait wait...why do you want Ryu nerfed? You actin like you facing world class ryus. There are literally about 11 or so Ryus on the planet that know what they are doing with the character. lol

You know all too well that true shoryu is over tuned and that up tilt is a type of cheese that probably shouldn't exist (if fox jab fix was any indication).
Asides from that, any hype/fear generated is bull ****; he's likely got close to the highest/largest learning curve in the game; not many people have even had the opportunity to learn a "proper Ryu" match up (scrubs and shtuff still think his match ups are based around having multi hits to beat focus... lol).

 

[FallenHero]

You know all too well that true shoryu is over tuned and that up tilt is a type of cheese that probably shouldn't exist (if fox jab fix was any indication).
Asides from that, any hype/fear generated is bull ****; he's likely got close to the highest/largest learning curve in the game; not many people have even had the opportunity to learn a "proper Ryu" match up (scrubs and shtuff still think his match ups are based around having multi hits to beat focus... lol).

Emblem Lord was probably just joking. I co-main Ryu, so I would know that true shoryu is definitely too powerful. It kills very early, comes out very fast, is invincible at the beginning, beats counters if hit with a light jab, up tilt, or down tilt, and it has many guaranteed setups that are not really that hard to get.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You know all too well that true shoryu is over tuned and that up tilt is a type of cheese that probably shouldn't exist (if fox jab fix was any indication).
Asides from that, any hype/fear generated is bull ****; he's likely got close to the highest/largest learning curve in the game; not many people have even had the opportunity to learn a "proper Ryu" match up (scrubs and shtuff still think his match ups are based around having multi hits to beat focus... lol).

When the hell is Marth in a position to get hit with an utilt unless his spacing is garbz or the Ryu bet it all and did some risky **** like rolled towards Marth.

 

[Shaya]

Umm, nearly never?
I don't know if that accidentally was my point or not.

Other characters have a harsher time against up tilt than Marth does.

 

[Emblem Lord]

BRUH, we in the Marth forums thooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Shoryu is overtuned...i guess...but at least Ryu has to earn his reward. He's no pre-patch Diddy.

 

[FallenHero]

BRUH, we in the Marth forums thooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Shoryu is overtuned...i guess...but at least Ryu has to earn his reward. He's no pre-patch Diddy.

Well unfortunately there isn't really much to talk about when it comes to Marth right now, which is why the past few pages have been spent talking about other characters.

Shoryu is overtuned and should probably be nerfed, but I would be pretty sad if they did nerf it. I'm really sure how to nerf it in a way that wouldn't make it kill too late on heavy weights and super heavy weights.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you nerf shoryu Ryu drops two tiers. There is no way around it.

Which is fine, tho I would def drop the game if Ryu got worse.