Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

What he said^
Side-b things, it's great!

The tipper hitbox is the size of a car.
It's great.

 

[Vipermoon]

Corrin diffs were released. Uair KBG growth increased by 5 to partially compensate for damage nerf. Remember when I said RIP Uair? Nvm

 

[CanadianCourage]

Maybe my Corrin isn't advanced enough but what am (or was) I killing with usually? Uair and Uthrow lol. Sure the other stuff gets me wonderful, sometimes easy kills, but Uair and Uthrow dudes... Uair and Uthrow. RIP Uair.

Btw corrins upair is still a good kill move, it just does 1% less.

 

[ElementUser]

I can't even.....

Marth plays so good though. That video is one of the best Smash 4 Marth videos I've watched! 10/10, would watch again.

 

[ReRaze]

I can't even.....

False's Marth so good though. That video is one of the best Smash 4 Marth videos I've watched! 10/10, would watch again.

Wasn't just False in there, Tweek, Airei, Mr.R, etc were also featured. Just Sayin

 

[ElementUser]

Good call, edited my post

 

[CURRY]

Hey, Force Majeure has audio again.
I am so happy. ;__;

 

[Vipermoon]

I watched Zone like 5 times since it came out.

Stuff from the video I didn't think of that I will now use:
-Short hop Fair off the ledge into Dancing Blade 1
-Full hop Fair on stage into fast fall Nair 1

Both can start some awesome strings as we see in Zone

 

[PK Gaming]

SEIZON SENRYAKU

I started watching Penguindrum so I finally get the thread title (I mean I've searched the thread title in the past but I didn't get it-get it until now)

15 episodes in and it's like, a really strong show. Enjoying the hell of the core cast, and the plot's clearly building up towards something amazing. Great followup to Utena.

PS: Ringo is the best character.

 

[CanadianCourage]

SEIZON SENRYAKU

I started watching Penguindrum so I finally get the thread title (I mean I've searched the thread title in the past but I didn't get it-get it until now)

15 episodes in and it's like, a really strong show. Enjoying the hell of the core cast, and the plot's clearly building up towards something amazing. Great followup to Utena.

PS: Ringo is the best character.

Can you explain it? I still havent understood the meaning behind it

 

[PK Gaming]

Can you explain it? I still havent understood the meaning behind it

My dumb ass linked to the wrong video.

Try this instead

But yeah, SEIZON SENRYAKU (or Survival Strategy) is a sequence that happens in nearly every episode of Mawaru Penguindrum. It's amazing with and without context.

 

[Comet7]

Critique my Marth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfKh28AlGbA

These are wifi and I only played Marth in the first game. I think lag was a factor in losing neutral a bit, but I'm sure there was stuff that I was doing poorly too, like choosing probably the worst option possible after shield dropping.

 

[CanadianCourage]

My first marth kill combo XD

 

[DariusM27]

Here's Ol' Mr R. Doing things with Marth that I didn't know existed, lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=905FqtKtcRU

Also... more Mr R Marth released 3 mins ago! Nice!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMJMWWDWxo

Edit -
Woooow. Just finished watched. Mr R is just flawless. Making Marth look so good, lolol.

...and more mr R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSytw27KLSY

 

[Vipermoon]

Here's Ol' Mr R. Doing things with Marth that I didn't know existed, lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=905FqtKtcRU

Also... more Mr R Marth released 3 mins ago! Nice!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMJMWWDWxo

Edit -
Woooow. Just finished watched. Mr R is just flawless. Making Marth look so good, lolol.

...and more mr R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSytw27KLSY

I know plenty of Tyroy so this is just further confirms stuff we already know...

-Bayonetta is a messed up character and she carries her player at multiple levels of play
-Marth loses that MU hard. Tyroy had a lot more punish opportunities too. Mr. R almost always came down with an aerial but never was there a WT punish. Tyroy even SD'd 2-3 times after his combos/kills like lmao how do you even...

 

[CanadianCourage]

I know plenty of Tyroy so this is just further confirms stuff we already know...

-Bayonetta is a messed up character and she carries her player at multiple levels of play
-Marth loses that MU hard. Tyroy had a lot more punish opportunities too. Mr. R almost always came down with an aerial but never was there a WT punish. Tyroy even SD'd 2-3 times after his combos/kills like lmao how do you even...

Lol I know Mr R had a 60-79 point lead just for tyroy to land one hit and take him to 70 or death as well. The one thing about di and Bayo is that if they know you are going to di they just hit you with Bair or mix up the combo a bit.

 

[Locuan]

Welp. Looking at it from D1's angle, that grab was pretty obvious.
http://oddshot.tv/shot/xd1x-201603255658708

 

[DariusM27]

Welp. Looking at it from D1's angle, that grab was pretty obvious.
http://oddshot.tv/shot/xd1x-201603255658708

no...poken...here...grrr....ugh..

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Played a ton of matches with Marth yesterday and I'm finding him to be an incredible counterpick to a large number of characters such as Rosalina, (Doctor) Mario, DK, Falcon, etc. with the only characters I really struggled with being Bayonetta and ZSS. I've heard from a lot of Marth Players that Cloud is a really bad MU for Marth, but I'm honestly not seeing how this is considering that Marth's Aerials and Tilts are just much faster with more overall reward, allowing him to consistently beat default cloud in neutral and forcing the him to camp in an attempt to obtain limit. Truthfully, Cloud is very scary for Marth to handle when he does have limit, but getting rid of it isn't too hard for Marth since all of his Neutral tools can push cloud off the stage, forcing him to waste limit. At worst I would call it a 55-45 MU in Cloud's favor.

With that out of the way, is there any reason Marth is not considered a high tier character and people still want the character to be buffed? A lot of characters just seem to get destroyed by him in the neutral and offfstage due to his ridiculous range since patch 1.1.4. and good frame data (particularly on his FAir and FTilt). While his grab game is pretty subpar, he doesn't struggle against shield as much as I initially thought due to his tippered moves being incredibly save on Shield + doing a lot of Shield damage, while Shieldbreaker makes a lot of characters wary of shielding. Damage racking isn't really a problem for Marth either since his aerials got buffed. Dancing blade is also ridiculously good at racking up damage since its pretty easy to setup and can cover a lot of the foes options. Really, the only area I would argue Marth is really lacking is in disadvantage, but considering how strong his neutral tools are, he will rarely be in that position.

 

[DariusM27]

With that out of the way, is there any reason Marth is not considered a high tier character and people still want the character to be buffed? A lot of characters just seem to get destroyed by him in the neutral and offfstage due to his ridiculous range since patch 1.1.4. and good frame data (particularly on his FAir and FTilt). While his grab game is pretty subpar, he doesn't struggle against shield as much as I initially thought due to his tippered moves being incredibly save on Shield + doing a lot of Shield damage, while Shieldbreaker makes a lot of characters wary of shielding. Damage racking isn't really a problem for Marth either since his aerials got buffed. Dancing blade is also ridiculously good at racking up damage since its pretty easy to setup and can cover a lot of the foes options. Really, the only area I would argue Marth is really lacking is in disadvantage, but considering how strong his neutral tools are, he will rarely be in that position.

I'm sure other players can give better answers than I can, but Marth generally gets beat by high tiers because they can play safe and camp him out. Dancing blade is consistently punished hard if shield punished properly, but I agree that it's one of his best neutral moves. Ness and Diddy can get 3 fairs out by the time Marth get one out, and their range is just about as good as his, so it's either going to trade or they can time it to miss our attack and punish fast and safely - meaning Marth's autocancel windows make his sh fair a risky move. Also, Marth has to play 'on point' the whole game to win, he doesn't have ez bake kill combos (he does have some, but nothing like "I hit you with a banana so now u r dead, haha I'm so good".
Anyway, there's my 2 cents.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I'm sure other players can give better answers than I can, but Marth generally gets beat by high tiers because they can play safe and camp him out. Dancing blade is consistently punished hard if shield punished properly, but I agree that it's one of his best neutral moves. Ness and Diddy can get 3 fairs out by the time Marth get one out, and their range is just about as good as his, so it's either going to trade or they can time it to miss our attack and punish fast and safely - meaning Marth's autocancel windows make his sh fair a risky move. Also, Marth has to play 'on point' the whole game to win, he doesn't have ez bake kill combos (he does have some, but nothing like "I hit you with a banana so now u r dead, haha I'm so good".
Anyway, there's my 2 cents.

What High / top tiers does Marth lose too besides Bayonetta, ZSS, and maybe Diddy, Sonic, Fox, and Sheik (haven't played these 4 MUs too extensively yet)? Against Ness, Mario, Falcon, and Ryu, Marth's much better range and edgeguarding ability usually give him the edge in these MUs from my experience playing them. Pika, Villager, and Meta Knight are a lot harder to edge guard (although against Villager, Marth can rack up a lot of damage in edgeguard attempts), but still have difficulty dealing with Marth's insane range in the neutral.

 

[DariusM27]

What High / top tiers does Marth lose too besides Bayonetta, ZSS, and maybe Diddy, Sonic, Fox, and Sheik (haven't played these 4 MUs too extensively yet)? Against Ness, Mario, Falcon, and Ryu, Marth's much better range and edgeguarding ability usually give him the edge in these MUs from my experience playing them. Pika, Villager, and Meta Knight are a lot harder to edge guard (although against Villager, Marth can rack up a lot of damage in edgeguard attempts), but still have difficulty dealing with Marth's insane range in the neutral.

Already explained Ness. He will camp you out, better autocancels, bthrow. Mario will combo you to death, same deal with the autocancels, and camp with fireballs. Falcon is the closest Marth gets to having advantage, but Falcon can camp him too. Omg Ryu always...always wins vs Marth, one of our worst MUs. He just has to hit you once at 70% or less, true shoryuken, and you r dead. And he can camp you out with projectiles too. Yeah, the common theme is the crappy autocancels, if we had those then projectiles wouldn't be so insurmountable.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Already explained Ness. He will camp you out, better autocancels, bthrow. Mario will combo you to death, same deal with the autocancels, and camp with fireballs. Falcon is the closest Marth gets to having advantage, but Falcon can camp him too. Omg Ryu always...always wins vs Marth, one of our worst MUs. He just has to hit you once at 70% or less, true shoryuken, and you r dead. And he can camp you out with projectiles too. Yeah, the common theme is the crappy autocancels, if we had those then projectiles wouldn't be so insurmountable.

Against Ness and Mario, well spaced Fairs and Nairs are really hard for them to deal with since it beats all their aerials due to it being disjointed and they don't have a single move that can outrange it. Even it they Shield it, its pretty hard for them to actually punish Marth since their OOS options can't reach him in time, assuming that your not trying to get the autocancel. Both are also pretty easy for Marth to edge guarding, Particularly ness. Their mobility overall isn't that great so I'm a bit confused on how they can camp him.

As for Ryu, hasn't Emblem Lord stated before the MU was in Marth's favor?

 

[Vipermoon]

Emblem Lord said that a long time ago. We have dozens of tournament footage of Marth losing to Ryu and probably none the other way around.

Ness, Mario, and Falcon are just about even.

ZSS, Sheik, Sonic, Ryu, Bayonetta, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Cloud, and Fox are the important disadvantage MUs that Marth has. I don't know if ZSS, Sheik, and MK are different this patch so we'll have to wait and see. No need to theorize those 3 when no one knows the true extent of their nerfs yet; but they were easily disadvantages before probably still not even now.

Edit: Villager is in Marth's favor in my experience and from what I've seen; for sure it's not worse than even

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth bodies Ryu fam.

 

[Vipermoon]

 

[Emblem Lord]

why u gotta mess up my troll with hard evidence?

Ok yeah looking at results we see Marth wins neutral but loses when it comes to sealing a stock and then Ryu just gets pissed and rips out Marths spine.

Dont get dragon punched fam.

 

[Shaya]

I'm surprised that was recent.
I was thinking like "oh the way Mr-E's not moving at all and just throwing out ****, this must be not that long after Ryu's release".

Then I went to youtube to see about a month, and I cringed too hard.
Modern age marths have no idea how to play against people who know the marth match up. Fortunately only a small handful of modern threats know the Marth match up.
But the general truth of Marth, even in the brawl days, is that an opponent who is better at "Marth" is going to be able to beat the marth player with whomever the **** he wants.

False legitimately knew what Mr-E was going to do 90% of the time (bar some randy moves like shieldbreaker/up smash) before Mr-E even thought it up.
Mr-E played so afraid that he was trying to react to things in most situations, never did he anticipate jumps, the dash of focus attack, the kicks or the shield strings false would put out - he would stand there and then essentially jump or shield drop into them. Over and over again.



Not to say that Marth beats Ryu or anything.
Marth loses to top/high tiers in general because he is a straight forward design and capabilities character who needs to be tuned as well as top tiers are tuned to be able to beat top tiers.
He can out play players though fine and dandy.


---
"always wait for Marth to swing first" [2009 DEHF/Larry + FICTION wisdom]
You have to REALLY push your game play to overcome this, in the Brawl days many gave up and moved onto MK, Snake or Falco. Having to out play someone with complete and utter honesty isn't something most players are capable of, but it's essential as a swordsman.

 

[Vipermoon]

I saw the same things but there was no doubt about the level of safety, damage, and stock taking ability that Ryu possesses above Marth here.

 

[Shaya]

Well if Marth never juggles (i.e. outspacing back air + focus attack), drops shield and takes 20-30% every time he takes a bair on block and doesn't capitalize off stage against ryu it's going to look one sided.

replace "Marth" with any character in the game, and you're going to see the Ryu dominate.

 

[Vipermoon]

True. You can't make more mistakes than Ryu with any character. If you can't punish to the level of what Ryu can, you actually have to make less mistakes than the Ryu. I think this is a main issue here. Even Battlefield expanded False's combo game more than I noticed it actually helping Mr. E.

In short, how are you going to beat a Ryu with Marth if they are as good as or better than you are?

I still think Ryu has the best frame data in the game in both damage, start-up/lag, and hitboxes. Ryu gets beaten if a character/player can take advantage of his weak parameters and semi-weak recovery. Marth can't do that well enough, so he gets Shoruken'd and dies.

 

[Reizilla]

From watching Jband on stream, I can tell you that MK nerf did hardly anything. If it was bad before, it's still a bad matchup. Uair string is just a little less consistent but still very doable. Especially against Marth's poor anti-juggle options.

From opinion, I don't think the nerfs to the other two were enough to change the matchup by more than an 05 if anything.

 

[DariusM27]

I'm just sharing these here because I wanted everyone to see them. I personally believe Mr R is the new hope for Ma4rth. His movements and strategies win matches, he's one of the best players in the world, and that skill seems to have translated into our character. I hope these are helpful to the community

Mr R's Marth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-d6Clf_svI - vs Rosaluma/Corrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNRPnQgsN_8 - vs Mario

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3JxLojw_v0 - vs Bayonetta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqXtL6rZtBI - vs Sheik

 

[CURRY]

I'm just sharing these here because I wanted everyone to see them. I personally believe Mr R is the new hope for Ma4rth. His movements and strategies win matches, he's one of the best players in the world, and that skill seems to have translated into our character. I hope these are helpful to the community

Mr R's Marth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-d6Clf_svI - vs Rosaluma/Corrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNRPnQgsN_8 - vs Mario

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3JxLojw_v0 - vs Bayonetta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqXtL6rZtBI - vs Sheik

https://youtu.be/lNRPnQgsN_8?t=4m49s
Good god, that luck. I didn't even know that usmash had a dead spot at all.

I hope Furil comes around to give us the hitbox visualizations soon. :3

 

[Vipermoon]

https://youtu.be/lNRPnQgsN_8?t=4m49s
Good god, that luck. I didn't even know that usmash had a dead spot at all.

I hope Furil comes around to give us the hitbox visualizations soon. :3

Lucina's hitbox visualizations are identical to Marth's so we have them already

 

[Spc2799]

So i was hoping there would be a ongoing conversation about this when i checked the thread, but theres not. I guess ill have to be the one to bring it up. What do you all think about this new Bidou tech? I'm not good enough yet to make any definite conclusions on its usefulness and i would like to hear all of your thoughts. I've heard a lot of opinions so far and from what i see it looks good. Do you all think it would be worth it to apply the Bidou control scheme to Marth. I was fooling around with it in training mode earlier and it felt surprisingly ok. I would really appreciate other peoples input.

I thought about making a separate thread but i figured id just put this in here in case i end up breaking some rule haha.

 

[CURRY]

Lucina's hitbox visualizations are identical to Marth's so we have them already

Ahh, that didn't come to mind, thanks Viper.
I don't follow the Lucina boards, but I guess I should?
I'm so late to this because school was keeping me away from Smash (currently spring break!), but Lucina doesn't feel... super crappy anymore?
Well...
It feels like they stuck Brawl Marth sourspot % numbers onto Lucina's moves in the patch, more or less. Which made it better than pre-patch.
Ahh... Brawl Marth

 

[Vipermoon]

Ahh, that didn't come to mind, thanks Viper.
I don't follow the Lucina boards, but I guess I should?
I'm so late to this because school was keeping me away from Smash (currently spring break!), but Lucina doesn't feel... super crappy anymore?
Well...
It feels like they stuck Brawl Marth sourspot % numbers onto Lucina's moves in the patch, more or less. Which made it better than pre-patch.
Ahh... Brawl Marth

You shouldn't follow the Lucina boards; unless you have more time on your hands. I don't know if they are less active or not and by how much but I don't have the time personally (I left the character competetive impressions thread and stopped following the competitive forum too).

http://smashboards.com/threads/hitbox-visualization-compilation.432936/
Instead just follow this thread and visit occasionally to see if the OP was updated. Hasn't been updated in a while so either he's busy or it isn't kept up to date.

 

[DariusM27]

One more Mr R vs Bayo grand finals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v99frQgVhio

So... I guess falling uair and nair are the neutral tools, unless they come in in which case jab and dancing blades, and throw out some occasional grabs, is the winning strategy here.

 

[Vipermoon]

Is this stuff too much to ask for? I mean really...