Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Emblem Lord]

NEO is one of the legendary grandmasters

 

[EnGarde]

The Roys are currently discussing the Marcina match up, and we'd like your input. Please click here to visit the match up thread. Click here to visit the directory thread.

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A fun tidbit: there's currently a JMU (Joint Match Up Discussion) going on concurrently with the two Discord communities, and during the course of the conversation, we talked about the movement differences between Marth and Lucina. I had always believed that Marth and Lucina had the same movement properties 100% of the time, under all circumtances, so my mind was totally blown to learn that they aren't. I'm sure this is common knowledge here, but man, to know that Lucina IS actually different in certain instances was quite surprising to me lol. Here's the demonstration video.

 

[Vipermoon]

A fun tidbit: there's currently a JMU (Joint Match Up Discussion) going on concurrently with the two Discord communities, and during the course of the conversation, we talked about the movement differences between Marth and Lucina. I had always believed that Marth and Lucina had the same movement properties 100% of the time, under all circumtances, so my mind was totally blown to learn that they aren't. I'm sure this is common knowledge here, but man, to know that Lucina IS actually different in certain instances was quite surprising to me lol. Here's the demonstration video.

Wow. Just to be clear, the only difference shown in that video was (after Roy moved out of the way) the running Ground Dodge and Jab. This is probably directly related to why Lucina can do sliding Perfect Pivot Tilts while Marth cannot.

Other than these, the only other known movement difference is the forward or backward movement (depending on input) after Utilt.

I'm going to the Mechanics and Techniques thread with this video.

 

[Jterr]

Guys I'm an idiot. Even with playing Marth since Smash 4's release, I only recently realized that Marth actually has more range that Lucina. (yay) Marth is taller, so his Falchion can reach higher.

 

[EnGarde]

Wow. Just to be clear, the only difference shown in that video was (after Roy moved out of the way) the running Ground Dodge and Jab. This is probably directly related to why Lucina can do sliding Perfect Pivot Tilts while Marth cannot.

Other than these, the only other known movement difference is the forward or backward movement (depending on input) after Utilt.

I'm going to the Mechanics and Techniques thread with this video.

This was part of a set from a Japanese twitter, showed that max height of Marth's idle crouch will be hit by thoron, but max height idle crouch Lucina will not be hit (non-max height for both is not hit). It also showed the very subtle height difference between Marth and Lucina's ledge grab distance. I linked the video where it was re-tested and recorded for the group, because the original Japanese twitter vine didn't show the startup, and it was unclear if the Marth and Lucina started from the same position on the left.

Here are the twitter links, for reference.

https://twitter.com/kiba_ssbm/status/647429760927318016
https://vine.co/v/exMVMTWK0uO
https://twitter.com/kiba_ssbm/status/647434711502069760

 

[Vipermoon]

This was part of a set from a Japanese twitter, showed that max height of Marth's idle crouch will be hit by thoron, but max height idle crouch Lucina will not be hit (non-max height for both is not hit). It also showed the very subtle height difference between Marth and Lucina's ledge grab distance. I linked the video where it was re-tested and recorded for the group, because the original Japanese twitter vine didn't show the startup, and it was unclear if the Marth and Lucina started from the same position on the left.

Here are the twitter links, for reference.

https://twitter.com/kiba_ssbm/status/647429760927318016
https://vine.co/v/exMVMTWK0uO
https://twitter.com/kiba_ssbm/status/647434711502069760

These are really interesting. The last 2 links is simply because Marth is larger. Even the ledge is just a hurtbox detection I believe.

The M&T thread say that some moves enable sliding when performed out of movement while some don't. No one yet has figured out exactly what decides which moves in the game do or do not. This applies to perfect pivot slides too.

 

[Halifax?]

why do i even play marth

 

[FallenHero]

why do i even play marth

I dunno.

 

[Shaya]

Because he's fun (especially in "aggressive" play because he's hard to outbutton) / has a cool learning curve that develop skills which apply to many characters.

 

[Jterr]

Every patch, the first thing I do is go to training mode and Counter something to hear if Marth says anything.
... and he never does.

yeah. I kinda miss him saying something when he counters

 

[DariusM27]

why do i even play marth

I use Marth because screw tiers and ****ing fight the power.

 

[Halifax?]

I'd give a lot to trade Falchion for a Killing Edge

 

[Shaya]

Bronze or Levin sword though.

 

[Vipermoon]

yeah. I kinda miss him saying something when he counters

Just to rub it in our faces Ike and Roy do it. Lucina does too since it was patched.

Edit: and Japan copies have Marth counter quotes. I tried finding the language toggle for that reason. You can't change it unlike in Melee.

 

[Locuan]

Killing Edge is were its at~

 

[Jterr]

I'd give a lot to trade Falchion for a Killing Edge

I bet you would.

 

[ReturningFall]

I bet you would.

Nah, brave sword. 1/2 frames on all attacks so we can "attack twice in the time of one round"

 

[Jterr]

Nah, brave sword. 1/2 frames on all attacks so we can "attack twice in the time of one round"

Sealed Sword or Durandal. :D

 

[FallenHero]

I use Marth because screw tiers and ****ing fight the power.

lol why did this get a warning?

 

[Shaya]

If you see last edited by a moderator, chances are it was a double post or censor dodge.

 

[TurboLink]

why do i even play marth

What do you mean?

 

[Loachy]

and Japan copies have Marth counter quotes.

what

 

[Vipermoon]

what

I'm refering to the stuff Marth used to say in previous games after he successfully gets a Counter. Marth still says these things in the Japanese version of this game.

 

[Halifax?]

~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Loachy]

I'm refering to the stuff Marth used to say in previous games after he successfully gets a Counter. Marth still says these things in the Japanese version of this game.

You sure about that one boss
https://youtu.be/3mZLikdcRVk?t=17m14s
I'm not hearing any soko das

 

[Vipermoon]

You sure about that one boss
https://youtu.be/3mZLikdcRVk?t=17m14s
I'm not hearing any soko das

Well then I don't know. In Roy's reveal trailer you can here one of them in the background. I guess it was assumed that it means it's in the Japanese version.

 

[Asdioh]

That's strange, I can imagine exactly what Marth's Counter voice clips sound like. They're really not in this game? Not even on the custom Counters?

I'm just here because I read Shaya's post about MarthRoyCloud. It was interesting. I don't think Marth will ever be a joke character, but I can see the frustration about Cloud. Cloud feels like a sword character done right in this game. His strengths and weaknesses were obvious very quickly, and playing him feels extremely natural to me. I still can't play Roy/Marth/Shulk for my life (my Ike is ok, but I played him a bit in Brawl too so that transferred) but playing Cloud immediately clicked. He can cover pretty much any area around him with hitboxes at a moment's notice, and he has plenty of fast/safe moves. I don't know that Roy is better than Marth, but I still don't really know what a good Roy looks like in high level competitive play, so yeah.

If you want to feel better about Marth:Roy, try doing a MK:Kirby comparison you want to talk about airspeed buffs/nerfs and competitive viability, there you go!

 

[Loachy]

Well then I don't know. In Roy's reveal trailer you can here one of them in the background. I guess it was assumed that it means it's in the Japanese version.

https://youtu.be/w8XIj05irtU?t=59s
They edited the voices in for the trailer; you can hear Ike say "you're open". In English.
What if they aren't even aware that his Counter lines don't occur during gameplay

That's strange, I can imagine exactly what Marth's Counter voice clips sound like. They're really not in this game? Not even on the custom Counters?

Well they're in the sound test...

 

[Vipermoon]

https://youtu.be/w8XIj05irtU?t=59s
They edited the voices in for the trailer; you can hear Ike say "you're open". In English.
What if they aren't even aware that his Counter lines don't occur during gameplay


Well they're in the sound test...

Oh they are aware. They are aware because they gave Lucina some of her own in 1.0.8. I don't see them doing that without knowing what Marth's did or didn't do. And like you said, they probably edited it for the trailer (wouldn't that be more proof that they were aware?).

I was thinking about pre-release and remembered this video:

I don't know what he says since it's noisy but it wasn't an actual phrase so it's safe to say it wasn't in pre-release either.

 

[Shaya]

"Marth is actually dead / a ghost in Smash4" - Sakurai
"It's actually his sword that does the taunting" - Character Design Team

 

[Browny]

I'm so glad you, and other people are finally realising that Roy is more viable than Marth. That said;

Cloud's [...] side-b is a better version of dancing blade,

No way. Clouds sideb is overhyped something stupid. Compared to dancing blade it loses out horribly when used on smaller shields as DB will almost always poke, DB can do more damage and it isnt punishable on hit, why arent people abusing this more

 

[FallenHero]

I'm so glad you, and other people are finally realising that Roy is more viable than Marth.

lol I thought everybody knew that.

 

[Vipermoon]

Well there's finally one benefit of the Smash 4 low-swipe DB2 animation: possible shield poke. Otherwise it is the bane of DB.

Oh for sure Dancing Blade is still better than Cloud's. It has WAY more adjustability and while it does stale with itself (and therefore does less damage) that comes with the benefit of refreshing the rest of your moveset. It also comes out faster, kills, and has more range.

 

[Shaya]

Why would you shield more than the first hit when rolling away/in gives you enough time to punish DB hits. Getting shield poked by it isn't something I'd consider noteworthy.

DB is also punishable on hit quite often. Kills if we're lucky/godlike. Has noticeably less range (he doesn't step forward several times, sure).
And it does 19% to DB doing like 10-14%.
And it doesn't have an instance where it like... has invincibility, doesn't get fallen out of, and kills pretty early.
The utility aspects of it for helping the stale queue are definitely good, but I still think the overall power level is lower (staling moves just isn't as important a factor to getting kills as it was in Brawl).

I didn't say it was infinitely better. But seeing as Cloud has two functional disjointed dash attacks already, and it otherwise works at low percent for a lot of damage and then turns into an insanely good kill move later on.
It isn't even close to being Cloud's best move, but dancing blade doesn't have much competition in Marth's toolkit for a better move.

 

[DariusM27]

How do you guys handle Cloud as Marth?

The best Clouds are rare, but I have a hard time with them. I can get some good strings in, but Cloud has tools that are just stupid, like free dash attacks constantly to cover techs and landings.

I try to stay behind him or space just within fair tipper range. Landing dancing blade is good too. When it comes to Cloud, I think whoever retains stage control will definitely win, in this MU more than others.

 

[LancerStaff]

As a neutral party to the side B discussion, both Marth and Cloud's side Bs are both terrible. Neither combo properly or are even safe on hit. Marth at least can cover spotdodges properly and it's usable for recovery, though. (Cloud can't continue his unless he hits something if you weren't aware.)

Just give me Electroshock plz

 

[TTTTTsd]

As a neutral party to the side B discussion, both Marth and Cloud's side Bs are both terrible. Neither combo properly or are even safe on hit. Marth at least can cover spotdodges properly and it's usable for recovery, though. (Cloud can't continue his unless he hits something if you weren't aware.)

Just give me Electroshock plz

Cloud's Side-B is functional vs. fastfallers which is all I care about. You can also just like, not continue with Cloud's and be pretty ok if you space it right (i.e. First hit properly spaced as an anti air/reaction is safe).

It's all worth it for Cloud because Limit Break makes it bonkers. Cloud's also stalls his recovery identical to Marth's so they both serve that purpose as well (although Blade Beam is admittedly a bit better, but you can always combine the two!)

 

[LancerStaff]

Cloud's Side-B is functional vs. fastfallers which is all I care about. You can also just like, not continue with Cloud's and be pretty ok if you space it right (i.e. First hit properly spaced as an anti air/reaction is safe).

It's all worth it for Cloud because Limit Break makes it bonkers. Cloud's also stalls his recovery identical to Marth's so they both serve that purpose as well (although Blade Beam is admittedly a bit better, but you can always combine the two!)

I mean, Limit Break would probably make Dancing Blade insane too. And I was pretty sure I've seen Fox and Sheik just fall out of Cross Slash at lower percents...

 

[Locuan]

Random thought of the day: Down throw up-b is ok-ish to rack up some damage on later percents.

 

[FallenHero]

Ugh, today my friend who doesn't play Marth played a few matches against me using him and did better with him than I do. I beat him in Marth dittos, but when I used other characters he clearly played better with Marth than I did. I need to train more, but unfortunately I only have the 3DS version (with no DLC) and For Glory is actually the worst thing ever on 3DS, so I refuse to play online on 3DS. I don't really think it is that he is better with Marth than I am specifically, but the fact that he is just fundamentally and technically better than me at the game since he plays this game a lot more than me. Man, I really do let my pride get the best of me.....though sometimes letting my pride get the best of me makes me get better. Well, at least my Ryu is looking kinda decent now that I understand how to play the neutral with him and my Cloud has been good since the day I first got to play him(yeah I guess he is a little braindead in this game lol).