Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[DariusM27]

I won a few small local tournys, nothing too big yet, but I'm going to make efforts to make it to tournys this year.

 

[Vipermoon]

I won a few small local tournys, nothing too big yet, but I'm going to make efforts to make it to tournys this year.

What region?

 

[DariusM27]

Kentucky Indiana ohio, specifically Louisville

 

[FallenHero]

Today I got to play the new patch along with the 2 new characters. The second I did a fair with Marth I immediately noticed a slight range increase. I gotta say that I am happy for Marth's buffs, but I think we can all agree that this still ins't enough. We just need one more thing.....please give us one more buff....we need some better throws! Maybe we could use another buff to Marth's aerials, but I don't really know if that is necessary.

 

[Vipermoon]

He needs autocancel, throws, Dsmash damage, Utilt damage, Dash Attack stuff, Dolphin Slash range, Dancing Blade 1 knockback reduction (especially on the tipper, when you get DB1 tipper, DB2 easily misses and then you're usually screwed), and slightly bigger inner hitboxes. If he gets these and maybe an easier spike and easier Uair tipper he'll be a legit good, tournament viable Marth that people will actually once again fear.

If he gets these plus counter quotes he'll be broken.

Edit: and if they don't want to do the autocancels then give him the same landing lag buff Roy just got

 

[Spc2799]

Counter (Down-B)

• 「させるものか！」 "Saseru mono ka!" (As if I'd let you!)
• 「見切った！」 "Mikitta!" (I saw through [your attack]!)
• 「そこだ！」 "Soko da!" (There it is! / Got you! / etc)

Vipermoon I want these back!

 

[Jterr]

Ken believes that Marth is now the best FE character in Smash 4. Mr. R also is using Marth more again, which is awesome. He says that Marth is a high tier now. The Marth buffs are great! Just if his aerials had reduced lag, he would maybe be even A tier or somewhere around that :O

 

[FallenHero]

Ken believes that Marth is now the best FE character in Smash 4. Mr. R also is using Marth more again, which is awesome. He says that Marth is a high tier now. The Marth buffs are great! Just if his aerials had reduced lag, he would maybe be even A tier or somewhere around that :O

I doubt he is the best FE character in the game or even high tier, but I think he is the 3rd best FE character. Ike and Corrin both seem better better than Marth, but I think at this point I can say Marth is better than Roy.

 

[Jterr]

Corrin hasn't been out enough and played enough with for me to say that he/she is the best. Tournament result wise, Ike is the best, but yeah Corrin and Marth are definitely debatable

 

[ILOVESMASH]

TBH I think its very debatable which FE Character is the best in the game currently. While Marth did get some really great buffs, I still find it questionable to think that he is better than Ike, Roy, and Lucina, all of which received major buffs as well. Whether marth is better than corrin is also up for debate.

 

[Bribery]

Ike is definitely the best FE character by far, but the rest feel very close to each other in terms of viability now.

In my opinion, Ike > Robin > Marth > Roy > Lucina

I think it's a bit early to rank Corrin but my early impressions have him/her around Robin's level.

 

[Rashyboy05]

. While Marth did get some really great buffs, I still find it questionable to think that he is better than Ike, Roy, and Lucina,

Wat. I'm pretty sure that almost everyone agrees that Marth is better than Lucina.

Anyway, in terms of best FE character. I'm very sure Ike is still considered king since he has the theory and results to back it up. Not to mention, the buffs that Ike got in this patch is very good since it improves his already good combo game and kill power.

As for Marth, I think the buffs he got makes him a better character overall. He's definitely a solid mid-tier imo. High tier is just being too generous. If he gets Dancing Blade, UAir and UTilt fixes then I think he can be high tier. What strikes me as odd is that the dev team decided to range buff Fair, Bair, D-tilt and F-tilt, which are arguably already good moves, but not buff Utilt and UAir, which are considered to be kinda bad moves because of crappy hitboxes.

 

[ben1707]

He's A- if he eventually gets better results, but definitely B+ at this point IMO.

Edit: Also, I think Corrin is definitely better than him and maybe even better than Ike, but only results will prove that.

 

[Vipermoon]

Ike was improved just as much, if not more, than Marth despite receiving a lower number of improvements. Quality > Quantity.

Marth core flaws were not addressed in this patch. The main flaws being reliable kill set-ups and aerial safety (in general). Secondary flaws being things like hitboxes, Dancing Blade 1, and other stuff I've mentioned. He got huge improvements though. He definitely went from low to mid, but that's it.

Mr. R, Ally, and whoever else are on the hype koolaid right now. Soon they'll see that their results won't be what they expect.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Wat. I'm pretty sure that almost everyone agrees that Marth is better than Lucina.

I was always under the opinion that Lucina was only slightly worse than Marth in patch 1.1.1 (like a one spot difference) mainly due to the fact that her untipped attacks dealt more hitstun and Knockback, making them safer on shield and more consistent in KOing. I feel that this patch made this advantage more notable, since moves like her Fair, Uair, and Bair are now noticeably safer on shield than Marth's when not tippered and are able to KO the opponent more consistently. Having more hitstun on some of her attacks like jab is also a noticeable advantage since she can combo / string her moves more reliably than Marth (very useful with the endlag buff to jab and utilt).

 

[Loachy]

I still think he's nonviable.

 

[Dark Phazon]

NewAnyone know a guy called "Seph^"
Thats his For Gloryname plays as Cloud with the Black coat outfit.

And has Anyone came across a guy in For Glory with the name
"VILLIANS"
he often plays as Ganon & DDD

 

[Freelance Spy]

NewAnyone know a guy called "Seph^"
Thats his For Gloryname plays as Cloud with the Black coat outfit.

And has Anyone came across a guy in For Glory with the name
"VILLIANS"
he often plays as Ganon & DDD

This is not the place for missed connections. If you wanted to find the love of your life you should have hit X on the win/loss screen and added him or wrote down his profile information.

Please be creepy elsewhere, this is a Marth discussion.

And to stay on topic myself, I do believe Marth can accomplish fantastic things. I was doing fine pre patch but now I think I can take something.

Anybody else getting the feeling the balance team releases these buffs prematurely and leave some of them for another day? Could explain some of the odd choices and why characters like Zelda remain untouched for long periods of time. Like they want to make some changes quickly, but others need more time in the brewery.

 

[Vipermoon]

I was always under the opinion that Lucina was only slightly worse than Marth in patch 1.1.1 (like a one spot difference) mainly due to the fact that her untipped attacks dealt more hitstun and Knockback, making them safer on shield and more consistent in KOing. I feel that this patch made this advantage more notable, since moves like her Fair, Uair, and Bair are now noticeably safer on shield than Marth's when not tippered and are able to KO the opponent more consistently. Having more hitstun on some of her attacks like jab is also a noticeable advantage since she can combo / string her moves more reliably than Marth (very useful with the endlag buff to jab and utilt).

While it's crazy that Lucina's aerials are almost Marth's old tippers, you have to consider that they did this because Marth received an extension to his tipper. If it's easier to tipper Fair, Nair, and Bair... Lucina had to get something. And something she got, it's hard to say who's buffs mean more (bonus damage vs. easier tipper).

 

[Freelance Spy]

While it's crazy that Lucina's aerials are almost Marth's old tippers, you have to consider that they did this because Marth received an extension to his tipper. If it's easier to tipper Fair, Nair, and Bair... Lucina had to get something. And something she got, it's hard to say who's buffs mean more (bonus damage vs. easier tipper).

Well I mean, we *also* got bonus damage.

Then again, (and I haven't done the math yet) the averages may lean to Lucina now. It may actually be worth looking into if all of our attacks will reset the neutral anyway.

I'd anyone would like to test this idea (and lab Lucina on shield and other things) then PM me and we can do it after hours or on weekends.

It may prove that Lucina could be more viable. (But I doubt it). Still, worth looking into, and I'd want it to be done by all the great players here as opposed to a "because waifu'" Lucina main.

There's hidden potential, I can smell it.

 

[Spc2799]

Anybody else getting the feeling the balance team releases these buffs prematurely and leave some of them for another day? Could explain some of the odd choices and why characters like Zelda remain untouched for long periods of time. Like they want to make some changes quickly, but others need more time in the brewery.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if in one of the next patches (if there are more) Jigs and Zelda get ridiculous buffs? like imagine Zelda's up smash got a bunch of frames shaved off and her throw combos becoming like pre patch diddy, or jigs getting her old up throw from melee + rest confirms. I'd honestly feel really happy for the poor people on the zelda/Jigs boards...

Well to stay on topic, i do think that Marth has been bumped up a bit in the tier list but he is still a mid tier. There is really no way you can say that Marth is high tier with just some hitbox adjustments and damage buffs. I love how the 1.1.4 Marth feels and its been easier to stick with him knowing that our plight isn't ignored but I'm not gonna blow this out of proportion. like Vipermoon said Marths main issues haven't truly been addressed in this patch but this is a happy alternative. Marth is still limited but with the support of a solid secondary he will be able to do some good things.

 

[Vipermoon]

The BIGGEST buff Marth received/will receive this patch was/is in meta development. When it comes down to it, if good players don't main your character, your character won't go anywhere.

If Marth OGs Ken and Mr. R are spreading Marth hype... if Ally and Mr. R are willing to give it a shot (and in Ally's case, another shot), this is truly how your character improves.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah like, Ally and MR. R are pretty big recruitments, alongside the general hype around his improvements.

Like, this is probably like Viper said, the biggest possible improvement: High/top level players caring!

 

[Spc2799]

Yeah like, Ally and MR. R are pretty big recruitments, alongside the general hype around his improvements.

Like, this is probably like Viper said, the biggest possible improvement: High/top level players caring!

Yeah i mean it was always a pain in the neck to find good Marth players to watch when i first started up. Mr. E (that is not a misspell) was one of the only relevant Marth mains that i could find at the time. If you haven't heard of him check out his matches btw. But then he switched to sheik and it seems like he has kinda given up on Marth so that sucks. its exciting to see people interested in Marth, that much is for sure.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah i mean it was always a pain in the neck to find good Marth players to watch when i first started up. Mr. E (that is not a misspell) was one of the only relevant Marth mains that i could find at the time. If you haven't heard of him check out his matches btw. But then he switched to sheik and it seems like he has kinda given up on Marth so that sucks. its exciting to see people interested in Marth, that much is for sure.

Naa, if anything Mr. E still uses Marth more often. I don't blame him for the Sheik thing; he wants to win. That is why he is traveling to tournaments. He will be working on Corrin though as he said on his YT channel.

 

[Spc2799]

Naa, if anything Mr. E still uses Marth more often. I don't blame him for the Sheik thing; he wants to win. That is why he is traveling to tournaments. He will be working on Corrin though as he said on his YT channel.

I totally get that, but that dude is like my smash idol. When i was first trying to get good with Marth i watched his matches over and over. Its just really disheartening to see him default to Sheik now. I'm aware that he wants to win and i don't blame him for playing other characters its just hard to see him as anything besides a Marth main.

 

[Ffamran]

Anybody else getting the feeling the balance team releases these buffs prematurely and leave some of them for another day? Could explain some of the odd choices and why characters like Zelda remain untouched for long periods of time. Like they want to make some changes quickly, but others need more time in the brewery.

They're probably patching before whatever DLC was released like 1.1.3's changes were for before Cloud was in the game and 1.1.4 was for before Bayonetta and Corrin if that makes any sense. We as players also act as the Q&A team since there's millions of us playing and doing things differently. In some cases, there are players intentionally trying to break the game which helps out the developers if they tell them. Having that many people is amazing and much better than relying on their own Q&A who might be busy with other stuff. There's a reason why Google rewards people who can find bugs, loopholes, and security compromises.

Anyway, Marth's an example of this. Did they try to balance Cloud before releasing him? Yeah, but with millions of others playing and their feedback, they got confirmation from the players that Cloud might have been doing everything Marth was and some. 1.1.4 rolls along and changed Marth (and Ike) making his spacing more rewarding. Feedback and analyzing the implications of Bayonetta and Corrin might lead to changes to characters for that, but after their release instead of during their release.

 

[Freelance Spy]

They're probably patching before whatever DLC was released like 1.1.3's changes were for before Cloud was in the game and 1.1.4 was for before Bayonetta and Corrin if that makes any sense. We as players also act as the Q&A team since there's millions of us playing and doing things differently. In some cases, there are players intentionally trying to break the game which helps out the developers if they tell them. Having that many people is amazing and much better than relying on their own Q&A who might be busy with other stuff. There's a reason why Google rewards people who can find bugs, loopholes, and security compromises.

Anyway, Marth's an example of this. Did they try to balance Cloud before releasing him? Yeah, but with millions of others playing and their feedback, they got confirmation from the players that Cloud might have been doing everything Marth was and some. 1.1.4 rolls along and changed Marth (and Ike) that makes his spacing more rewarding. Feedback and analyzing the implications of Bayonetta and Corrin might lead to changes to characters for that, but after their release instead of during their release.

That's pretty plausible, but not the only explanation. Development can be weird, and you also have to take in effect that it is a Japanese publisher so maybe our input is worth less than we would like to think...

I think this is worth discussing in any case. Maybe if we can understand the developers then we can more easily advocate our suggestions and get them noticed.

 

[Shaya]

I was away for the weekend (was playing this patch though) and came back expecting all I saw but dancing blade hitbox changes too, obviously been lucky then as I've been getting tipper 4th hits quite a lot.
Maybe it's that 1 frame start up difference!

Marth's nair would be hitting lower (as would fair, bair higher, etc) because the hitbox got moved one unit down the sword horizontally; but it's still centered otherwise. If you have a diagonal line downwards "\" and the size of the hitbox stays the same but the position is moved then it'll be going further in the angle of the sword; geometry / vector arithmetic.

Nair is kinda scary. It can't just win games unfortunately but not only is it a monster at killing, it's ability to hit further downwards at tipper range is awesome at reducing how easy it is to just dash shield within it's range.
Could just be me but the tipper hitbox changes feels like point blank issues are slightly less prominent on ftilt and jab.

Roy v Marth match up probably just turned extremely awful for Roy (if it wasn't living on a tight wire before), but these changes are actually allowing Marth and Roy's swords to nearly match in reach on a lot more moves, as should've always been the case. Interesting thing is that I'm pretty sure Roy's down tilt matched Marth's with 6.7 unit on the tip of the sword and that wasn't matched, Roy with the 1.5 unit increase here would be STUPENDOUSLY happy.

I don't think Cloud would've been the only (or main) reason his range has been adjusted but probably more so "this is too blatantly obvious if you compare to this character you're about to release". Corin's fair auto cancels on a fast fall btw, and also has melee marth tipper fair trajectory and similar landing lag (less, right?). What would've been Marth's purpose had Corrin been living with the one move (and a bunch of other solid ones, that counter is hilarious) that most truly defined Marth for his entire smash career while this iteration would've been all but worse in every area TO A CHARACTER IN THE PLAYABLE ROSTER (no longer is it a 95%+ comparison only validated by a past game).

---

Please be confident in your testing before making claims and publishing videos about Marth having down throw set ups.
It wouldn't be the first time. It probably won't be the last time, unless you actually tested things properly through and through and in practice it matches up (cool if ZSS can be done in by this through all options).

 

[Bowserboy3]

I doubt he is the best FE character in the game or even high tier, but I think he is the 3rd best FE character. Ike and Corrin both seem better better than Marth, but I think at this point I can say Marth is better than Roy.

I second this. I could see Marth potentially edging close to the high tier with a few results under his belt, but players (top players even) coming out with a bold statement such as that is rather amusing. Shows what exactly they knew about the character in the first place... I'd say he's at least somewhere in the mid tier now, better than Roy.

 

[Vipermoon]

I was away for the weekend (was playing this patch though) and came back expecting all I saw but dancing blade hitbox changes too, obviously been lucky then as I've been getting tipper 4th hits quite a lot.
Maybe it's that 1 frame start up difference!

Marth's nair would be hitting lower (as would fair, bair higher, etc) because the hitbox got moved one unit down the sword horizontally; but it's still centered otherwise. If you have a diagonal line downwards "\" and the size of the hitbox stays the same but the position is moved then it'll be going further in the angle of the sword; geometry / vector arithmetic.

Nair is kinda scary. It can't just win games unfortunately but not only is it a monster at killing, it's ability to hit further downwards at tipper range is awesome at reducing how easy it is to just dash shield within it's range.
Could just be me but the tipper hitbox changes feels like point blank issues are slightly less prominent on ftilt and jab.

Roy v Marth match up probably just turned extremely awful for Roy (if it wasn't living on a tight wire before), but these changes are actually allowing Marth and Roy's swords to nearly match in reach on a lot more moves, as should've always been the case. Interesting thing is that I'm pretty sure Roy's down tilt matched Marth's with 6.7 unit on the tip of the sword and that wasn't matched, Roy with the 1.5 unit increase here would be STUPENDOUSLY happy.

I don't think Cloud would've been the only (or main) reason his range has been adjusted but probably more so "this is too blatantly obvious if you compare to this character you're about to release". Corin's fair auto cancels on a fast fall btw, and also has melee marth tipper fair trajectory and similar landing lag (less, right?). What would've been Marth's purpose had Corrin been living with the one move (and a bunch of other solid ones, that counter is hilarious) that most truly defined Marth for his entire smash career while this iteration would've been all but worse in every area TO A CHARACTER IN THE PLAYABLE ROSTER (no longer is it a 95%+ comparison only validated by a past game).

---

Please be confident in your testing before making claims and publishing videos about Marth having down throw set ups.
It wouldn't be the first time. It probably won't be the last time, unless you actually tested things properly through and through and in practice it matches up (cool if ZSS can be done in by this through all options).

Thank you! That's what I'm saying. That video has over 40,000 views @Darklink401 and we still have no reason to believe you can't air dodge unless a there was a universal change which is unlikely. Like I said, you didn't say anything wrong, but just read the comments. It is filled with people assuming it is all new despite what you said in the video. People thanking Sakurai in there and for what exactly? The biggest thing that happened is that Uair kills much earlier at a percent where you are more likely to get the follow-up. I mean, it showed as a combo in training so you wouldn't be able to jump out... but air dodge? Almost definitely.

The reason why I think this is a big deal is because a video this popular will fill people's heads with fulfillment on Marth and everyone will think the character is done. He won't be buffed anymore and that's it. No high tier Marth all because they saw that people were happy. That's actually the only reason I care.

Shaya Will you be going back to Marth or are you still on the Roy path? Roy's landing lag changes seem like a big deal for his game plan.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I just have a few questions about Marth's Nair. I saw some comment floating about on various sites/boards mentioning that Marth's tipper Nair is the most powerful Nair in the game....

So, can anybody help me out here? Questions:

1) Is it true? Is Marth's tipper Nair really the most powerful Nair in the game?
2) If so, was this the case in Brawl?
3) And does the slight damage increase it got in 1.1.4 make it any more powerful in terms of knockback?

 

[DariusM27]

I just have a few questions about Marth's Nair. I saw some comment floating about on various sites/boards mentioning that Marth's tipper Nair is the most powerful Nair in the game....

So, can anybody help me out here? Questions:

1) Is it true? Is Marth's tipper Nair really the most powerful Nair in the game?
2) If so, was this the case in Brawl?
3) And does the slight damage increase it got in 1.1.4 make it any more powerful in terms of knockback?

Good questions, I'd like to know too.

Also, one of my favorite things about this buff is that marth's ground game is safer than before.

Dtilt and ftilt range rocks.

Ftilt jab and utilt being faster is great.

I no longer will always be punished for using any move on the ground besides dtilt, lol.

Pre 1.1.4 like "Oh you gonna use jab1? I'll just roll behind you and do literally whatever I want for free, because you have literally no safe moves" lol.

The changes are effecting my play style, but probably for the better.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yes, it's the strongest Nair. Yes, damage makes it even stronger. Yes, it was the strongest before though Ganondorf got really close.

Edit: I don't remember there being a stronger Nair in Brawl either

 

[Bowserboy3]

Yes, it's the strongest Nair. Yes, damage makes it even stronger. Yes, it was the strongest before though Ganondorf got really close.

Edit: I don't remember there being a stronger Nair in Brawl either

Hmm, good to know, thanks.

 

[Jterr]

Marth's up tilt was good before, as it could lead to another up tilt or up air, but now its even better for strings. You can do up tilt to forward smash on fast fallers easier now,and maybe get a tipper.
Also, is it true that Lucina's up tilt doesn't slide her forward like Marth's? I haven't tried it, I don't play Lucina lol

 

[Freelance Spy]

Marth's up tilt was good before, as it could lead to another up tilt or up air, but now its even better for strings. You can do up tilt to forward smash on fast fallers easier now,and maybe get a tipper.
Also, is it true that Lucina's up tilt doesn't slide her forward like Marth's? I haven't tried it, I don't play Lucina lol

I find uptilt to Bair is more reliable against more opponents and is more versatile as a string. I haven't labbed yet so it might be able to combo into something maybe? Maybe that's wishful thinking, but I'd like to go over all moves into all other moves and see what happens.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Also, is it true that Lucina's up tilt doesn't slide her forward like Marth's? I haven't tried it, I don't play Lucina lol

Lucina's Utilt doesn't slide her forward like Marth's. This is one of the very few things that Lucina has over Marth.

 

[Spc2799]

I find uptilt to Bair is more reliable against more opponents and is more versatile as a string. I haven't labbed yet so it might be able to combo into something maybe? Maybe that's wishful thinking, but I'd like to go over all moves into all other moves and see what happens.

Ive found that SH tipper Uair-> tipper Utilt is easy to pull off and under some circumstances can link to another Utilt (tippered or not) but idk if that would work with proper DI. Im not much of a Labbing guy yet but im trying. If this combo is as painfully obvious as it seems lmk guys, Im still working on becoming familiar with combos, hitstun, etc.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Lucina's Utilt doesn't slide her forward like Marth's. This is one of the very few things that Lucina has over Marth.

I wouldn't call it a benefit/downside for either one of them. It's one of those things that is very niche and is useful on the fly in certain situations. Like say I just miss a tipper Up Tilt on a grounded opponent, I should be able to just instantly use Up Tilt, and the small step allows me to get a tipper. It's one of those things that occasionally when I play Lucina, I might just miss with Up Tilt and think "dang, I wish I could have had that small step", and other times as Marth, the small step might screw over an Up Tilt string or something and I will say "dang, I wish that step never happened".

I'll be honest though, that small step has never really been a true hindrance in all my experience, and it's actually been a benefit on occasions, so I'd say that it's actually more helpful for Marth to have it, but as I explained above, it can be situational.