Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Bowserboy3]

Wasn't Melee Falco faster at walking than running? Except in that game wavedashing exists so it's not as beneficial to walk.

Marth certainly does seem to actually have some acceleration to his walk now, but we shall wait and see.

Falco's dash in Melee was 1.5, and his walk was 1.4, so it was just marginally faster.

But regarding walk acceleration, I assume that it is the rate/how quickly the character accelerates to their max walk speed, yes? So Marth currently has a 0 rate, if he had a 0.1, he should accelerate to his max walk speed faster?

I still have my 1.1.3 3DS, so I will give this a little look into.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, foiled again Viper.
FOILED AGAIN.
Fortunately Shayair/Neutral Air is the only move that matters!

-

Walking Acceleration is kinda like Aerial acceleration/deceleration. There's some sort of standard increase and the value "walking acceleration" is a modifier for a bonus increment on some interval.
0.1 would mean our walk would be ... like.... just as good as all the top tiers who are meant to have worse walks than us.

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't know about 0.1. Maybe 0.5. But you know that weird walking acceleration property Roy gets sometimes? Well Marth gets it if you Ftilt then walk backwards.

Alright, I didn't make as many values as the Pikachu Ftilt test, because Marth's Dthrow has extremely low KBG (50) so I don't need to do the test every 10%, there would be so little variance. It also never fails to put the victim in tumble, so there's no enlightening point where we see the effects of hitstun cancelling as the opponent begins entering tumble. Here's the 1.13 Hitstun suffered when Marth Dthrows Sheik at 0/50/100% in training mode with no DI and is using the following options:

Double Jump (maximum hitstun): 43/48/53
Aerials: 43/46/47
Air Dodge (minimum hitstun): 41/41/41

Marth has 25 endlag after Dthrowing Sheik. This may have changed now that Sheik is a point lighter. The point where I start counting frames (for endlag and for hitstun) is the frame Sheik has sustained damage. Because this is a throw that only deals damage once on release, there's no hitlag frames you need to count around, but it's important I state where 1 is. And if nobody is around to do the 1.14 test, I'll do it in a few days. I've been keeping my Wii U from being updated on the off chance we catch a lead for some change in the update. And it's been 72 hours since that had last happened.

So, what's the deal with 41 frames of hitstun anyway? Is it just this game's version of the 13 minimum hitstun you suffered in brawl when air dodging? And we know there's a point where you have to suffer more than that even when air dodging, but the knockback has to be so large that you're put uncomfortably close to the blastzone.

This is all correct except that the FAF for both of their ledge jumps is 13, not 14.


I've got you covered.

I'm assuming from what you said that you counted '1' on frame 15 of Marth's D-throw animation as that is the frame that damage is dealt.

Marth is able to act on the 25th frame if you count from 1 as indicated above. If what you mean earlier is that there are 25 frames of actual lag and that Marth was able to act on the 26th frame, then this is a difference as you predicted.

For the following, I will assume that you were talking about e.g. 41 frames of actual hitstun, with the first frame Marth is able to airdodge upon being frame 42, and so I'll follow that format.

Double Jump (maximum hitstun): 43/48/53
Aerials: 43/46/47
Air Dodge (minimum hitstun): 41/41/41

And it's all the same ^. So the only thing to change is Marth being able to act 1 frame sooner.

And it was debunked like I knew it would be.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well I had a look into walking acceleration.

To get a better view on what a small difference it can be, I tested Mario and Shulk side by side. Mario has a walk acceleration of 0.1, and Shulk has a walk acceleration of 0, but they both have the same walk speed at 1.1. Needless to say Mario speeds up noticeably quicker than Shulk. This allowed me to get a better view of how the 0.1 difference can affect your acceleration.

So I went to Marth, and I couldn't see any sort of change at all (this is going from a standing point into the walk).

However, with the whole Ftilt-ing and walking backwards thing, I dunno. I mean, I never knew about it until now, so I can't say I notice it all the time, but it does indeed look like Marth at least accelerates slightly quicker by Ftilt-ing and then walking in the opposite direction. Of course, don't take this all literally, I could be completely wrong about all of it, but it's just some little tests I did.

 

[Vipermoon]

Well I had a look into walking acceleration.

To get a better view on what a small difference it can be, I tested Mario and Shulk side by side. Mario has a walk acceleration of 0.1, and Shulk has a walk acceleration of 0, but they both have the same walk speed at 1.5. Needless to say Mario speeds up noticeably quicker than Shulk. This allowed me to get a better view of how the 0.1 difference can affect your acceleration.

So I went to Marth, and I couldn't see any sort of change at all (this is going from a standing point into the walk).

However, with the whole Ftilt-ing and walking backwards thing, I dunno. I mean, I never knew about it until now, so I can't say I notice it all the time, but it does indeed look like Marth at least accelerates slightly quicker by Ftilt-ing and then walking in the opposite direction. Of course, don't take this all literally, I could be completely wrong about all of it, but it's just some little tests I did.

The only way you can truly compare is if you take Marth in each patch and keep walking back and forth, like a walking dash dance

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's dash in Melee was 1.5, and his walk was 1.4, so it was just marginally faster.

But regarding walk acceleration, I assume that it is the rate/how quickly the character accelerates to their max walk speed, yes? So Marth currently has a 0 rate, if he had a 0.1, he should accelerate to his max walk speed faster?

I still have my 1.1.3 3DS, so I will give this a little look into.

Great... So, Falco's ground movement was pretty much nerfed from Melee to Brawl and remains to this day. Welp, now I want Falco's run speed to return to Melee's 1.5 from Smash 4's 1.472 and walk speed to be 1.3 to 1.4 from 1.28. Why? More rounded numbers instead of wacky stuff like a run speed of 1.472 that barely makes Falco faster than Olimar's 1.47 and just a tiny bit off of 1.5. That being said, Fox and Marth having walk speeds of 1.6 would be pretty ridiculous in this game considering 1.6 is average to feeling fast run speeds.

Well I had a look into walking acceleration.

To get a better view on what a small difference it can be, I tested Mario and Shulk side by side. Mario has a walk acceleration of 0.1, and Shulk has a walk acceleration of 0, but they both have the same walk speed at 1.5. Needless to say Mario speeds up noticeably quicker than Shulk. This allowed me to get a better view of how the 0.1 difference can affect your acceleration.

So I went to Marth, and I couldn't see any sort of change at all (this is going from a standing point into the walk).

However, with the whole Ftilt-ing and walking backwards thing, I dunno. I mean, I never knew about it until now, so I can't say I notice it all the time, but it does indeed look like Marth at least accelerates slightly quicker by Ftilt-ing and then walking in the opposite direction. Of course, don't take this all literally, I could be completely wrong about all of it, but it's just some little tests I did.

Isn't Mario and Shulk's walk speed 1.1 not 1.5?

 

[Bowserboy3]

The only way you can truly compare is if you take Marth in each patch and keep walking back and forth, like a walking dash dance

Hmm... it's probably just me, but unfortunately I am not seeing anything. Probably best to wait for 100% confirmation.

I was doing the whole Ftilt and walk in the opposite direction thing, and I initially thought "wow, it's true, Marth does speed up quicker". Then I remembered in 1.1.4 Ftilt had 3 frames shaved off the end, so of course it would be a bit quicker... whoops!

Upon managing to match the FAF's of both Ftilts and comparing, I still couldn't notice it at all. Again, probably my untrained eye. Sorry I couldn't confirm anything...

Ffamran , thanks for pointing that out, my bad!

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Looks like Shaya beat me to it, but I got to checking through Lucina's frame data so you can compare her safety on shield compared to Marth's. All of Marth's frame changes apply to Lucina, of course. And for some reason Marth's Jab 1 IASA to Jab 2 is still one frame earlier than Lucina's.

I'll post this in the Lucina general as well.

 

[DariusM27]

Have you guys been winning matches you lost before patch? If so, why?

 

[Vipermoon]

Hmm... it's probably just me, but unfortunately I am not seeing anything. Probably best to wait for 100% confirmation.

I was doing the whole Ftilt and walk in the opposite direction thing, and I initially thought "wow, it's true, Marth does speed up quicker". Then I remembered in 1.1.4 Ftilt had 3 frames shaved off the end, so of course it would be a bit quicker... whoops!

Upon managing to match the FAF's of both Ftilts and comparing, I still couldn't notice it at all. Again, probably my untrained eye. Sorry I couldn't confirm anything...

Ffamran , thanks for pointing that out, my bad!

We'll figure it out eventually. What I was talking about with Ftilt is moving backwards gives this crazy boost. It didn't do that before. You shouldn't have to line up the Ftilts to account for the 3 frames because that's not what we're looking at. Even doing them at them same time between both games isn't necessary. Just switching between the two should make it pretty obvious if one is faster. Thanks for looking into it.

 

[Freelance Spy]

https://youtu.be/T3fWEDU6yac?t=21m4s The way Nair misses at this moment is a huge slap in the face from Sakurai.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3fWEDU6yac&feature=youtu.be&t=21m11s Ah, the famous Archilles Heel. For those of you who don't know what that is on Marth, scroll down to the Counter GIF in here http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/ and take a look at his foot/heel.

EL, you have been a Marth main in every game and you DI the Uthrow FORWARD!? Um, 93 degree KB angle! Hello!

I really like Neo's play-style. Unless Dash Attack gets good in a patch, those accidental Dash Attacks almost make all the tech skill not worth it. But that's okay he'll only get better at it.

He dropped a few easy edgeguard Counters. Most of them weren't easy but there were many super obvious ones. And not just your side B. When you were recovering with SRK and he was hanging on the ledge, he decided to roll instead of drop counter.

MU: This specific MU is easily better post-patch but pretty crappy pre-patch and almost entirely because of Ryu's damage and kill set-ups.

Also, this happened way too many times: as a general rule with Marth in every Smash game when you have someone in a knockdown get-up situation at the ledge you have a free charged Fsmash. Charging SB or Dtilting just isn't as good.

All of these comments are respectful of course because the man is a better Marth than me.

What isn't better is his color! Mac & Cheese Marth is the ugliest. Side note, so glad his hair always stayed the same for his Alts.

Ranking Time (IMO)

Normal > Blue (this would be the better one if the boots were the same as normal and not blue) > Black (this would be the BEST if the inside of the cape was Black and not Yellow) > Green > Red (Ken) > Silver/White > Purple (Roy) > Mac & Chesse (Gold)

I think the MU is still bad for us. Ryu can space with Bair really easy in the neutral and if he gets one lucky tilt its a free shoryuken. I really don't have any answers to fight him in a lot of situations if he is optimizing against Marth. I feel the MU is worse than Shiek in a few ways.

 

[CanadianCourage]

I think the MU is still bad for us. Ryu can space with Bair really easy in the neutral and if he gets one lucky tilt its a free shoryuken. I really don't have any answers to fight him in a lot of situations if he is optimizing against Marth. I feel the MU is worse than Shiek in a few ways.

Well thats because shiek's fair has less range then ours and ryu kills us at 60%

 

[LancerStaff]

Going to reconfirm there's no change to Marth's walking acceleration.

Went to Gerudo Valley, rolled right six times, did Foxy's frame advance thing once on Counter, and held left and then L to let 'em walk across the stage until they hit the blastzone. They died at the same time.

Any momentum trickery out of a move is, well, strictly out of a move. Case in point: Brawl Pit's spotdodge moving Pit forwards or backwards depending on what you did afterwards. Although I'm not seeing any significant burst of speed walking backwards after an Ftilt... Looks kinda weird on 1.1.4 because Marth acts from Ftilt faster but that's it.

If you guys have anything else good for me to try real quick I'll see if I can.

 

[Bowserboy3]

did Foxy's frame advance thing

I see this term being used quite a lot... what actually is that?

 

[LancerStaff]

I see this term being used quite a lot... what actually is that?

When you set training to 1/4(L) or 1/2(L) you hold L to make the game play at that speed. If you press and release L as fast as you can the game will advance 2 frames, meaning it can be used as a unit of measurement. In this case I used it for consistency from Counter.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Hey everyone. Bit of sad news but I figured it was coming. The smash updates stop at Corrin and Bayonetta as shown in this new Famitsu article. Sakurai plans to take an extended vacation and i don't blame him. To be honest i couldn't be happier with the game i got and even though we won't see any more patches its been one hell of a ride.

(Source) http://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/02/09/famitsu499/

I'd say "RIP Zelda" but I did read the article and I'm confused. Nowhere does it say that the patches will stop.

Looks like you are jumping to conclusions.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd say "RIP Zelda" but I did read the article and I'm confused. Nowhere does it say that the patches will stop.

Looks like you are jumping to conclusions.

Development ending usually means the end of regular patches...

 

[Spc2799]

I'd say "RIP Zelda" but I did read the article and I'm confused. Nowhere does it say that the patches will stop.

Looks like you are jumping to conclusions.

Development ending usually means the end of regular patches...

I probably should have made it more clear but yes thats what I meant. Sorry about that.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Development cycles in no way mean the end of patches. There are many examples of games being updated after their lifespan.

I guess we will have to wait two months and see.

 

[Vipermoon]

Sakurai said once that he simply approves his balance "team's" (I doubt it's made up of many people) suggestions so it could be just him taking a vacation (and he could have some deal with Nintendo to employ some Sora employees a little further). The fact that I can just throw hypothetical possibilities out there proves that we don't know much about how this is set-up and what Nintendo has to do with it.

Also 1.1.5 stuff could have been decided on already (esp non DLC stuff). There could even be situations where they purposely withheld some changes as to not do too many things to the game or a character in one patch.

 

[LancerStaff]

Eh, I'm not going to be very hopeful about any buffs or nerfs coming from a future patch... Really wasn't expecting much from a future patch besides maybe Corrin and Bayonetta tweaks. Since Cloud wasn't touched at all they seem pretty confident about the DLC character's position anyway.

Basically, don't get your hopes up unless they announce that rumored SSBU port to NX.

 

[DariusM27]

There will probably be a 1.1.5, if only to fix this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZV1Zh7BPMY&app=desktop

 

[Buffoon]

It's amazing that because of a few buffs, I have a Sm4sh Marth again.

 

[Darklink401]

I don't know about 0.1. Maybe 0.5. But you know that weird walking acceleration property Roy gets sometimes? Well Marth gets it if you Ftilt then walk backwards.





And it was debunked like I knew it would be.

But airdodges take 3-4 frames to come out right? Or is the 41 accounting for what time the airdodge actually comes out, as opposed to when you can start it?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Have you guys been winning matches you lost before patch? If so, why?

Hmm, good question...

I can't really say, but what I can say is that I am having an easier time racking up damage, comboing, and even killing. The damage increase to Fair helps fill a gap. I have gotten some pretty good kills safely with it. Retreating Fair at the ledge is great. It's safe, and can actually kill at a reasonable percent now.

 

[NinfanNanz]

I feel like the fox matchup is much easier for me. Fox illusion is easier to counter off stage due to B-air/F-ais larger disjoint. In addition not being as close to fox when Up Bing is super nice because it was super diffucult for me to space my aerials without getting hit. Up-tilt's less frames makes it a lot easier to juggle him a little bit. Jab's less frames makes mix-ups much easier. I still have trouble dealing with his short hop fox illusion. It seems to go through everything grounded and super hard to time with an aerials that last 2 to 3 frames in front.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I feel like the fox matchup is much easier for me. Fox illusion is easier to counter off stage due to B-air/F-ais larger disjoint. In addition not being as close to fox when Up Bing is super nice because it was super diffucult for me to space my aerials without getting hit. Up-tilt's less frames makes it a lot easier to juggle him a little bit. Jab's less frames makes mix-ups much easier. I still have trouble dealing with his short hop fox illusion. It seems to go through everything grounded and super hard to time with an aerials that last 2 to 3 frames in front.

Did we ever have problems versus fox? I must have never played a good one or something...

 

[Vipermoon]

But airdodges take 3-4 frames to come out right? Or is the 41 accounting for what time the airdodge actually comes out, as opposed to when you can start it?

The 41 is the frames of hitstun only. If Marth has 24 recovery frames out of Dthrow (yes, that's a lot and that's for Sheik weight in this patch), and most of air dodges of the characters you say this works on are actually frame 2. Some 3. Check KH for specifics. Anyway, after spending 4 grounded frames for jumping, full hopping, interrupting at some point with a double jump, interrupting at some point with Uair. Well, you can see why they can air dodge especially with how slow Marth's jumps rise compared to most characters. I mean, you were looking at the combo counter which was using 53 frames of hitstun. And even that barely comboed. What if you lost 12 frames (because you can start air dodging on frame 42)? No way that would work. If you waited for 12 frames before jumping, this wouldn't show as a combo.

Don't you think that if this worked before this patch, that we would be doing it more? Something as extremely simple as a follow-up out of Dthrow doesn't get discovered more than a year after the game comes out. And we always knew what the combo counter said. Even against Marth or Fox at 120% it still shows a "2" if you're frame perfect. I've known that forever.

If you still don't believe me, we can play a match online, you can get me to your perfect %, Dthrow me, I won't DI, I'll just spam air dodge.

 

[NinfanNanz]

Did we ever have problems versus fox? I must have never played a good one or something...

If you get stuck up in the air against fox as marth, you have few options (air dodge, dair ,and counter) against up air so he racks up damage on marth easily. Fox also has a better neutral game, being with SHFL n-air/rar b-air.

 

[Ffamran]

Hey guys! I found a missed change to Marth's Fair in 1.1.4.

It's called modding.

... Oh Naga, that looked hilarious and terrifying. O_O

 

[Vipermoon]

I wish I knew how to do that. I would actually be serious about it and make the Marth I think he needs to be.

NinfanNanz Fox is a tough MU. Many will try to say that it's even because he dies easily or because he gets edge-guarded hard but every character does that to him and he still beats them.

Fox can short hop for free against Marth (using the bait and punish play-style which no doubt is still effective against Marth this patch). Marth almost loses his short hop game entirely against Fox. Furthermore, most things Marth does to Fox's shield can be punished by Fox's long range, frame 4 (frame 5 including the dash cancel) combo starter called dash attack. This MU gets complicated, I merely simplified it. But trust me, I have A LOT of experience against Fox in Michigan.

 

[Darklink401]

The 41 is the frames of hitstun only. If Marth has 24 recovery frames out of Dthrow (yes, that's a lot and that's for Sheik weight in this patch), and most of air dodges of the characters you say this works on are actually frame 2. Some 3. Check KH for specifics. Anyway, after spending 4 grounded frames for jumping, full hopping, interrupting at some point with a double jump, interrupting at some point with Uair. Well, you can see why they can air dodge especially with how slow Marth's jumps rise compared to most characters. I mean, you were looking at the combo counter which was using 53 frames of hitstun. And even that barely comboed. What if you lost 12 frames (because you can start air dodging on frame 42)? No way that would work. If you waited for 12 frames before jumping, this wouldn't show as a combo.

Don't you think that if this worked before this patch, that we would be doing it more? Something as extremely simple as a follow-up out of Dthrow doesn't get discovered more than a year after the game comes out. And we always knew what the combo counter said. Even against Marth or Fox at 120% it still shows a "2" if you're frame perfect. I've known that forever.

If you still don't believe me, we can play a match online, you can get me to your perfect %, Dthrow me, I won't DI, I'll just spam air dodge.

Actually, the Samuses never knew their upthrow could combo into upair until I pointed it out a couple weeks ago XP

I think I get how it works now, tho. Still doesn't explain how I wasn't able to airdodge (granted I wasn't testing DI + airdodge, just mashing airdodge) out of the upair pre-patch, unless there is 1-2 frames to do it.

Since airdodge can be started frame 42, that would leave it at 44-45, which is 1-2 more frames than dthrow upair at 0% (for aerials and stuff), which is a true combo, and has a tad bit of leniency on it. Aerial jumps don't take any frames to perform, is it really not mathematically possible for there to be a 1-2 frame window in which it would work?

 

[Vipermoon]

Actually, the Samuses never knew their upthrow could combo into upair until I pointed it out a couple weeks ago XP

I think I get how it works now, tho. Still doesn't explain how I wasn't able to airdodge (granted I wasn't testing DI + airdodge, just mashing airdodge) out of the upair pre-patch, unless there is 1-2 frames to do it.

Since airdodge can be started frame 42, that would leave it at 44-45, which is 1-2 more frames than dthrow upair at 0% (for aerials and stuff), which is a true combo, and has a tad bit of leniency on it. Aerial jumps don't take any frames to perform, is it really not mathematically possible for there to be a 1-2 frame window in which it would work?

How were you both inputting an air dodge and following-up with Uair?

Air dodge on 43 or 44.

You have to wait for Marth to rise in his full hop and I believe a little in his double jump (I forgot if you can input Uair and double jump at the same time and still have it reach).

Wanna try it online? As long as you don't have laggy internet, anything we find will be the real deal.

 

[Darklink401]

How were you both inputting an air dodge and following-up with Uair?

Air dodge on 43 or 44.

You have to wait for Marth to rise in his full hop and I believe a little in his double jump (I forgot if you can input Uair and double jump at the same time and still have it reach).

Wanna try it online? As long as you don't have laggy internet, anything we find will be the real deal.

I use my feet to mash airdodge :3 I've gotten used to it since I like labbing alone.

I know you can with bair, but not sure about upair...one sec.

Ok, I can at least confirm that inputting both at the same time will indeed reach :3

Will you be free to test tomorrow morning or night? My internet is usually fine unless someone's like in Canada or Europe or something haha.

 

[Vipermoon]

I use my feet to mash airdodge :3 I've gotten used to it since I like labbing alone.

I know you can with bair, but not sure about upair...one sec.

Ok, I can at least confirm that inputting both at the same time will indeed reach :3

Will you be free to test tomorrow morning or night? My internet is usually fine unless someone's like in Canada or Europe or something haha.

I'm busy in the day but we can test it tomorrow night.

 

[Spc2799]

Godspeed. I really hope this Hoo-Hah is legitimate. If it is we are looking at a real big boost to our character!

Just for clarification. if someone DI's into Marth on our down throw its equal to no DI at all? is there a difference?

 

[Vipermoon]

Shaya I've been thinking about Marth's hitboxes and it doesn't make sense to me as to why we say there's overlap between the sword's sourspot and tipper like how we see it is for Melee.

In most cases, the sourspot is on x=2.0 and the tipper is on x=6.7 (or 7.7 this patch) and the hitbox diameters are 3.5. Subtract the radius from the tipper, add the radius to the sourspot, and you get x=4.95 or 5.95 and x=3.75. No overlap.

Am I doing something wrong?

 

[Shaya]

yeah, the value is radius apparently, not diameter.
^^

(I did a search the other day and I could only find things referencing it as radius, not diameter; so a hitbox should be covering 7 units width)

 

[Vipermoon]

yeah, the value is radius apparently, not diameter.
^^

(I did a search the other day and I could only find things referencing it as radius, not diameter; so a hitbox should be covering 7 units width)

Alright, got it. Then there's still a decent amount of overlap even with the 7.7 position

 

[PEACE7]

Top 5 Marths?