Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Buffoon]

Have you guys been winning matches you lost before patch? If so, why?

In a Best of 5 on Smash-Ladder, I went 3-1 against a Yoshi player who destroyed my Lucina and Mario eariler in a Best of 3. I went Marth for the entirety of my Salty Runback and came out on top during the set, and the numerous friendlys afterwards despite Yoshi being one of my (personal) worst matchups.

Whatever was done to the tipper hitbox(es) has made it easier to aim for me; prior to this patch, I couldn't play Sm4sh Marth for the life of me, now I'm landing an insane amount of tips after some increases in range.

 

[Darklink401]

Godspeed. I really hope this Hoo-Hah is legitimate. If it is we are looking at a real big boost to our character!

Just for clarification. if someone DI's into Marth on our down throw its equal to no DI at all? is there a difference?

They fly straight up, making it easier.

Top 5 Marths?

Pugwest and Mr.E I'll say due to them being the most well-known.

SlayR and Stroder are great Marths in the Marcina Discord.

Vexx and I are pretty good international Marths, both within the PR in our country (me being #10, him being #1-2) tho I use Villager more than Marth.


Hard to say who the top 5 Marths are in a specific order tho xD

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm technically the best Marth main in my state but lol there isn't much of a sample size

 

[DariusM27]

Marth tourny. Let's figure this crap out right now, lol

 

[Darklink401]

Marth tourny. Let's figure this crap out right now, lol

There have been 5-6 Marcina tournaments run by the Marcina discord. xP

But nothing Marth-only haha.

 

[Vipermoon]

It doesn't matter. You can't reliably use Marth dittos to determine who's Marths are better

 

[DariusM27]

It doesn't matter. You can't reliably use Marth dittos to determine who's Marths are better

That's true. MU knowledge with Marth is where it's at

 

[Vipermoon]

That's true. MU knowledge with Marth is where it's at

That and fundamentals (this one is always a Marth thing). Plus you got the obvious stuff like knowledge/optimization. Specific skill would be stuff like effective useage of Fox trot cancels

 

[Eddie G]

Hi guys, Munenori here (aka King Beef). Just wanted to say hello and introduce myself to your boards. I was a Peach/Marth co-main in Brawl and now I co-main the same pair in smash 4. I'll admit I was a little inactive with Marth during the first few months of this game but the recent patch makes him feel like the Marth I remember using lol. Looking forward to meeting/chatting with you guys and pushing Marth's game even further!

I'll also be attending the Midwest regional "Frostbite" this weekend so you'll likely get a look at my Marth on stream.

 

[Vipermoon]

Hi guys, Munenori here (aka King Beef). Just wanted to say hello and introduce myself to your boards. I was a Peach/Marth co-main in Brawl and now I co-main the same pair in smash 4. I'll admit I was a little inactive with Marth during the first few months of this game but the recent patch makes him feel like the Marth I remember using lol. Looking forward to meeting/chatting with you guys and pushing Marth's game even further!

I'll also be attending the Midwest regional "Frostbite" this weekend so you'll likely get a look at my Marth on stream.

Say hi to NE Ohio for me as that's where I'm from. I would have went to Frostbite but unfortunately I cannot. Welcome though.

 

[Eddie G]

Say hi to NE Ohio for me as that's where I'm from. I would have went to Frostbite but unfortunately I cannot. Welcome though.

Will do man! Nice to meet ya

 

[CanadianCourage]

So are we still lower tier then Ike and roy?

 

[Locuan]

Welcome Eddie G ! Go show them what Marth can do.

So are we still lower tier then Ike and roy?

Too early to arrive to conclusions. Once results start kicking in, we can see how things are going.

 

[LRodC]

I always thought Roy was too high for absolutely no reason in the official tier list. Even Samus has achieved more.

 

[Shaya]

I think these range buffs push Marth ahead of Roy.
At least at the moment.

But before hand, other than Marth's tipper mechanic skewing some match ups, he just did worse than Roy in everything.

Corrin is kinda invalidating us ("AGAIN? DAMN YOU DLC!"); in a cute way unlike Cloud. Cloud was like, 'everything brawl marth can do with an easier move set', Corrin is like "everything every fire emblem character can do in smash 4, but better and easier".

Without these range buffs Marth would look way too outclassed right now. I feel certain our fair was buffed not because we needed it, but because having Corn's fair be better in every single stat would just look bad to even the most biased of designers, now it's half the stats are better... just a lot of the ones which are more important (hitbox angle, swing size, auto cancel).

But because of these buffs... Marth does kinda have this niche again. I wouldn't say there's no merit to playing Marth when there's Corrin (Cloud is still basically like this though) because the sheer potency of neutral air (high skill move) overall, forward air's GTFO/kill power base and down tilt's trapping is separating him from the rest of the sword characters a lot.

It's been a while since I've expected Marth to be a high tier again, but at least at this stage it's not this universal outclassed feeling. In the long run Marth will be worse than a lot of characters, but will still have a valid niche for a person's play style to not be a "waste". This is good. Every character should have a bit of their own thing going for them.

I think I'm currently limited to only wishing down air and nair had auto cancels now; up air would be fantastic too but it isn't necessary. Sure our throw damage is still meh, dash attack and down smash are awkward, and dolphin slash (hitbox position) come together as still really really undertuned moves, but I'm sure more characters are worse than us now.

 

[CanadianCourage]

I think these range buffs push Marth ahead of Roy.
At least at the moment.

But before hand, other than Marth's tipper mechanic skewing some match ups, he just did worse than Roy in everything.

Corrin is kinda invalidating us ("AGAIN? DAMN YOU DLC!"); in a cute way unlike Cloud. Cloud was like, 'everything brawl marth can do with an easier move set', Corrin is like "everything every fire emblem character can do in smash 4, but better and easier".

Without these range buffs Marth would look way too outclassed right now. I feel certain our fair was buffed not because we needed it, but because having Corn's fair be better in every single stat would just look bad to even the most biased of designers, now it's half the stats are better... just a lot of the ones which are more important (hitbox angle, swing size, auto cancel).

But because of these buffs... Marth does kinda have this niche again. I wouldn't say there's no merit to playing Marth when there's Corrin (Cloud is still basically like this though) because the sheer potency of neutral air (high skill move) overall, forward air's GTFO/kill power base and down tilt's trapping is separating him from the rest of the sword characters a lot.

It's been a while since I've expected Marth to be a high tier again, but at least at this stage it's not this universal outclassed feeling. In the long run Marth will be worse than a lot of characters, but will still have a valid niche for a person's play style to not be a "waste". This is good. Every character should have a bit of their own thing going for them.

I think I'm currently limited to only wishing down air and nair had auto cancels now; up air would be fantastic too but it isn't necessary. Sure our throw damage is still meh, dash attack and down smash are awkward, and dolphin slash (hitbox position) come together as still really really undertuned moves, but I'm sure more characters are worse than us now.

I'll stay marth/Lucina till the day I die even if we get nerfed so hard fair is like gannons up tilt but I think we are more viable then corrin because we have more range,baring fsmash, and are safer on block. This could just be character biased though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You biased as **** bruh.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

May just be me, but I never really understood the comparisons between Marth and Roy. I understand that they are semi clones, but from my experience, they have always played the neutral very differently from each other and have very different strengths and weaknesses. For example, Roy has a much better SHFF game and combos while Marth generally has much better pokes and safer edge guarding tools.

 

[Reizilla]

I really wish these buffs would have come sooner. I've played like 3 games of Marth since Corrin was released :x Fair strings are just so nice.

 

[Shaya]

May just be me, but I never really understood the comparisons between Marth and Roy. I understand that they are semi clones, but from my experience, they have always played the neutral very differently from each other and have very different strengths and weaknesses. For example, Roy has a much better SHFF game and combos while Marth generally has much better pokes and safer edge guarding tools.

Nothing about roy's moveset that stops him from poking. His edge guarding (from on stage) is lacklustre in comparison but he still is throwing swords in your direction off stage reliably that kill.
Marth is close to only efficient with a SHFF game in terms of maximising pressure/walling.

 

[Halifax?]

Here's the Marth MU stuff from the MU chart polls. For reference this is a couple patches back, likely 1.1.3 or 1.1.2.

Marth wins
Captain Falcon
Bowser
Roy
Kirby
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Shulk
Dr. Mario
Lucina
Charizard
Palutena
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff

Marth loses
Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Ryu
Pikachu
Sonic
Fox
Diddy Kong
Meta Knight
Villager
Yoshi
Pit/Dark Pit
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Olimar
Greninja
Ike
Link

Contested/Undecided
Rosalina & Luma
Mario
Cloud
Ness
Luigi
Peach
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Mega Man
Pacman
Robin
Bowser Jr.
Lucas
Mewtwo
Wii Fit Trainer
Duck Hunt
Little Mac
King Dedede
Mii Brawler
Samus
Mii Gunner
Mii Swordfighter
Zelda
Corrin
Bayonetta

 

[Vipermoon]

I think these range buffs push Marth ahead of Roy.
At least at the moment.

But before hand, other than Marth's tipper mechanic skewing some match ups, he just did worse than Roy in everything.

Corrin is kinda invalidating us ("AGAIN? DAMN YOU DLC!"); in a cute way unlike Cloud. Cloud was like, 'everything brawl marth can do with an easier move set', Corrin is like "everything every fire emblem character can do in smash 4, but better and easier".

Without these range buffs Marth would look way too outclassed right now. I feel certain our fair was buffed not because we needed it, but because having Corn's fair be better in every single stat would just look bad to even the most biased of designers, now it's half the stats are better... just a lot of the ones which are more important (hitbox angle, swing size, auto cancel).

But because of these buffs... Marth does kinda have this niche again. I wouldn't say there's no merit to playing Marth when there's Corrin (Cloud is still basically like this though) because the sheer potency of neutral air (high skill move) overall, forward air's GTFO/kill power base and down tilt's trapping is separating him from the rest of the sword characters a lot.

It's been a while since I've expected Marth to be a high tier again, but at least at this stage it's not this universal outclassed feeling. In the long run Marth will be worse than a lot of characters, but will still have a valid niche for a person's play style to not be a "waste". This is good. Every character should have a bit of their own thing going for them.

I think I'm currently limited to only wishing down air and nair had auto cancels now; up air would be fantastic too but it isn't necessary. Sure our throw damage is still meh, dash attack and down smash are awkward, and dolphin slash (hitbox position) come together as still really really undertuned moves, but I'm sure more characters are worse than us now.

Here's my take on why Marth was buffed the way he was. He mainly received damage and range/tipper tweaks. There's one reason for the damage buffs and that is: Lucina.

If Corrin was released (hell, Cloud too) with Lucina like the way she was, it would have been horrible to have her exist. Look at Corrin's Uair. What if that existed while Lucina's old Uair did? The world would explode. With how they want Lucina's knockback values the be right in between Marth's tipper and sour they did the other thing and gave her some of the biggest damage changes ever.

With that, they are like "okay we did good, we can keep Cloud and Corrin how we want them now..." "wait! What about Marth? Lucina basically has tippers now". "Hmm, well we can't give Marth damage buffs that large. He'd be overtuned on the damage side and it would be weird and dumb" "I know, let's make his tippers easier!" "Great idea, this way he gets tippers more often which will sort of neutralize Lucina doing so much damage." "How do we do it though?" And this is where they decided on range. "We created Cloud and Corrin. Some of the stuff they have is pretty large. Look at this! Even Roy has more disjoint in many cases!" "Alright, we'll increase range and improve tippers on Marth's most important moves but out of laziness, we'll keep his bad moves as still bad!" "Perfect, nice thinking"

This explains why they made many tippers easier EXCEPT UAIR which is literally the one move Marth mains complain about tipper difficulty for. The other tipper that never happens is tipper Usmash. Well too bad, it gets nothing too. Inner hitboxes? Nope, that has nothing to do with fixing the stuff in the last paragraph. Wanna give Jab 2 more range (when compared to jab 1) and less cooldown so that it properly connects and sets-up tech chase situations? Sorry. Wanna give damage buffs to Utilt and Dsmash, no doubt the moves that needed it the most? Useable Dash Attack for anything other than a combo finisher? Never! Less knockback on tipper Dancing Blade so that people don't perfect shield DB3 after Db2 misses? Or if not, lower KB on DB2-up so that can be used? Hell no. Autocancel? Throws? Nope, they internally agreed that stuff is off-limits for Marth before he gets too good and breaks the game like they did with Bayonetta or Cloud.

Here's the Marth MU stuff from the MU chart polls. For reference this is a couple patches back, likely 1.1.3 or 1.1.2.

Marth wins
Captain Falcon
Bowser
Roy
Kirby
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Shulk
Dr. Mario
Lucina
Charizard
Palutena
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff

Marth loses
Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Ryu
Pikachu
Sonic
Fox
Diddy Kong
Meta Knight
Villager
Yoshi
Pit/Dark Pit
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Olimar
Greninja
Ike
Link

Contested/Undecided
Rosalina & Luma
Mario
Cloud
Ness
Luigi
Peach
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Mega Man
Pacman
Robin
Bowser Jr.
Lucas
Mewtwo
Wii Fit Trainer
Duck Hunt
Little Mac
King Dedede
Mii Brawler
Samus
Mii Gunner
Mii Swordfighter
Zelda
Corrin
Bayonetta

Okay let's see what we have...

Last patch, Marth didn't beat Bowser (he lost to Bowser) or Captain Falcon or Charizard.

Last patch, Marth didn't lose to Yoshi, Villager, Olimar, or Toon Link.

 

[CanadianCourage]

You biased as **** bruh.

Lol, you sure don't pull punches do you? Don't you feel the same as me though? I see you here all the time, even when I am ghosting.

 

[Darklink401]

Here's my take on why Marth was buffed the way he was. He mainly received damage and range/tipper tweaks. There's one reason for the damage buffs and that is: Lucina.

If Corrin was released (hell, Cloud too) with Lucina like the way she was, it would have been horrible to have her exist. Look at Corrin's Uair. What if that existed while Lucina's old Uair did? The world would explode. With how they want Lucina's knockback values the be right in between Marth's tipper and sour they did the other thing and gave her some of the biggest damage changes ever.

With that, they are like "okay we did good, we can keep Cloud and Corrin how we want them now..." "wait! What about Marth? Lucina basically has tippers now". "Hmm, well we can't give Marth damage buffs that large. He'd be overtuned on the damage side and it would be weird and dumb" "I know, let's make his tippers easier!" "Great idea, this way he gets tippers more often which will sort of neutralize Lucina doing so much damage." "How do we do it though?" And this is where they decided on range. "We created Cloud and Corrin. Some of the stuff they have is pretty large. Look at this! Even Roy has more disjoint in many cases!" "Alright, we'll increase range and improve tippers on Marth's most important moves but out of laziness, we'll keep his bad moves as still bad!" "Perfect, nice thinking"

This explains why they made many tippers easier EXCEPT UAIR which is literally the one move Marth mains complain about tipper difficulty for. The other tipper that never happens is tipper Usmash. Well too bad, it gets nothing too. Inner hitboxes? Nope, that has nothing to do with fixing the stuff in the last paragraph. Wanna give Jab 2 more range (when compared to jab 1) and less cooldown so that it properly connects and sets-up tech chase situations? Sorry. Wanna give damage buffs to Utilt and Dsmash, no doubt the moves that needed it the most? Useable Dash Attack for anything other than a combo finisher? Never! Less knockback on tipper Dancing Blade so that people don't perfect shield DB3 after Db2 misses? Or if not, lower KB on DB2-up so that can be used? Hell no. Autocancel? Throws? Nope, they internally agreed that stuff is off-limits for Marth before he gets too good and breaks the game like they did with Bayonetta or Cloud.



Okay let's see what we have...

Last patch, Marth didn't beat Bowser (he lost to Bowser) or Captain Falcon or Charizard.

Last patch, Marth didn't lose to Yoshi, Villager, Olimar, or Toon Link.

Marth lost to Villager last Patch, but it wasn't as bad as it should be on paper. Villager actually struggles vs swordies, but thankfully most swordies struggle vs projectiles.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth lost to Villager last Patch, but it wasn't as bad as it should be on paper. Villager actually struggles vs swordies, but thankfully most swordies struggle vs projectiles.

Well I've never lost to a Villager in tourney out of the 5-ish times that I've faced them. Online too, if I find a truly good Villager, the MU feels even or in Marth's favor. And that was last patch.

I think Villager struggles with Marth's fast disjoints and he takes a lot of damage off-stage.

 

[Darklink401]

Well I've never lost to a Villager in tourney out of the 5-ish times that I've faced them. Online too, if I find a truly good Villager, the MU feels even or in Marth's favor. And that was last patch.

I think Villager struggles with Marth's fast disjoints and he takes a lot of damage off-stage.

Villager takes a lot of damage offstage, but nair for some reason trades with dolphin slash, so one nair from Villager could kill Marth at 30% in the reverse situation (also slingshots and dairs, since dair lasts so long) offstage is not pretty for Marth, since he likely will die, but Villy does take quite a bit of % when trying to get back on. I feel Villager has to play relatively safe vs Marth, because his moves come out quick, but they have quite a bit of endlag, so Villager can always do his signature nair OoS if he gets inside Marth's range. I played the MU in tourney yesterday and while Marth CAN give Villager trouble, I feel the more the the players knows the MU of Villager vs Marth, the harder it becomes for Marth.

But it's nothing like an overwhelming MU or anything, it's just like 55-45 or something. But I'm glad you bring up that it's not too bad a MU, since most Marcinas say that they hate fighting Villager and its a terrible MU. And I'm like "...no...no its not...o3o" lol

 

[Tarastel]

Just wanted to leave a friendly reminder this almost happened.

Spoiler

 

[FallenHero]

Just wanted to leave a friendly reminder this almost happened.

Spoiler

View attachment 96514

I heard that Marth was originally planned for Smash 64, but I never thought they had a model for him. Also I love your signature lol.

 

[Vipermoon]

That model actually looks too good for 64 lol (just the face does)

I heard that Marth was originally planned for Smash 64, but I never thought they had a model for him. Also I love your signature lol.

They didn't. He was a definite yes if they had time kind of situation (since 64 is full of cloned moves everywhere, while Marth would have to be unique therefore taking more time) so they didn't really start anything. What I wish they finished was the Akaneia stage that was supposed to be in Melee.

Random thought:

But what if they had a little more time for a 64 Marth and Sakurai decided to make him a Link clone except with different grabs/throws/specials? He could even be wielding the Fire Emblem for a shield (or they could do a shieldless clone). Let's think about what that would mean for Melee and every future Marth *shivers*. If they kept Marth as a Link semi-clone in Melee he wouldn't have been as broken as he was... people therefore wouldn't love him as much.. so they don't care to buy Fire Emblem in US. This means Fire Emblem isn't released in the US so we don't get the chance to play it/them. Nintendo doesn't make as much money and then we'll assume somehow Marth makes it back into Brawl and Smash 4 but still with a just a hint of that Link background. Yeah... deep stuff. Good thing Marth wasn't in Smash 64, eh?

Of course, this assumes the worst case of every scenario after the Smash 64 Link cloning lmao.

 

[A_Reverie]

The jab duration reduction is amazing.

Forcing people into various traps using Jab1 is way cool. The tipper hit pops people a bit off the ground and from there (dependng on percent) you can do several things including, but not limited to:

• Another Jab1, reseting the trap
• Jab2 to knockaway
• Ftilt, a likely tipper
• F-smash, punishes them for doing nothing or an errant airdodge into the ground if delayed. Can tipper more easily if you do a very brief dash backward before executing.
• Chase jump out with rising F-air.

If you whiff the Jab, you can dash away. I wouldn't stand still for too long trying to fish it out, but it's a great anti-air, comes out pretty quick, and can really stagger people who aren't expecting it.

EDIT: Something else I forgot to mention: With the easier tippers, F-air is now really good at hitting characters as they come off of the ledge. You can cover a lot of options by doing a backwards short hop F-air. Also, F-air can now be a better choice than B-air for killing off of the side in some situations simply because it covers different space/swings downward instead. B-air is still superior in terms of raw power.

Also a question: Why can't I seem to get this Marth D-throw -> U-air/B-air thing to work? It feels like any amount of rage completely ruins it.

 

[Darklink401]

The jab duration reduction is amazing.

Forcing people into various traps using Jab1 is way cool. The tipper hit pops people a bit off the ground and from there (dependng on percent) you can do several things including, but not limited to:

• Another Jab1, reseting the trap
• Jab2 to knockaway
• Ftilt, a likely tipper
• F-smash, punishes them for doing nothing or an errant airdodge into the ground if delayed. Can tipper more easily if you do a very brief dash backward before executing.
• Chase jump out with rising F-air.

If you whiff the Jab, you can dash away. I wouldn't stand still for too long trying to fish it out, but it's a great anti-air, comes out pretty quick, and can really stagger people who aren't expecting it.

EDIT: Something else I forgot to mention: With the easier tippers, F-air is now really good at hitting characters as they come off of the ledge. You can cover a lot of options by doing a backwards short hop F-air. Also, F-air can now be a better choice than B-air for killing off of the side in some situations simply because it covers different space/swings downward instead. B-air is still superior in terms of raw power.

Also a question: Why can't I seem to get this Marth D-throw -> U-air/B-air thing to work? It feels like any amount of rage completely ruins it.

It's really strict timing.

Also I wonder why people keep wondering if rage makes combos impossible...its like...just do the combo earlier....

xD

 

[A_Reverie]

It's really strict timing.

Also I wonder why people keep wondering if rage makes combos impossible...its like...just do the combo earlier....

xD

I know rage doesn't make combos impossible. It just feels like rage makes Marth's D-throw really nuts.

 

[Darklink401]

I know rage doesn't make combos impossible. It just feels like rage makes Marth's D-throw really nuts.

It would also make his upair nuts at killing ;3

 

[ElementUser]

Does anyone else get super annoyed when Marth's UTilt or Jab misses targets that are right next to you (especially crouching short characters)?

I swear some of Marth's hitboxes/visuals still need some more work

 

[Vipermoon]

Also a question: Why can't I seem to get this Marth D-throw -> U-air/B-air thing to work? It feels like any amount of rage completely ruins it.

Because it's not a thing

It would also make his upair nuts at killing ;3

Also I wonder why people keep wondering if rage makes combos impossible...its like...just do the combo earlier....

I know rage doesn't make combos impossible. It just feels like rage makes Marth's D-throw really nuts.

The base knockback on Dthrow is 95 while the base knockback on Uair is 40. This is why rage affects Dthrow so easily at percents before this set-up "works"

Does anyone else get super annoyed when Marth's UTilt or Jab misses targets that are right next to you (especially crouching short characters)?

I swear some of Marth's hitboxes/visuals still need some more work

Yes, we all get super annoyed. Probably no one more than me. In Utilt's case, it has Z-axis issues. In the other cases, Marth's arm hitboxes are too small and/or he doesn't have an active frame or two when he should (like a frame 4 for Jab)

 

[Halifax?]

I think Bat Within may **** on Jab shenanigans. It slows Marth down and Bayonetta gets a frame advantage.

 

[Vipermoon]

Witch Time especially ****s on Jab stuff since rarely do you have Jab true combos. You have to keep baiting it or grabbing. Actually, that's how you fight her in general.

I think she easily beats Marth since Marth doesn't get nearly as much damage or follow-ups out of grabs as the other characters. He also generally is the one that's forced to approach in the MU. Her Nair eats Dolphin Slash for breakfast as well.

 

[Shaya]

A really slow paced neutral game seems to make Marth have an alright time.
Witch Time is not too detrimental to people's juggle games. I wouldn't say consistent thing, but witch time'd well spaced fair can hit Bay's hurtbox on her fsmash at least

We can counter in a lot more situations than we would be used to due to her bullet time/whatever mechanic.

Marth's jab is ... a hmm thing right now.
If you hit with the later frames of it you're likely not to get a follow up, but horizontal close to the ground you're likely to get follow ups.


Everyone should try not to forget about the existence of sh up air auto cancelling. Relatively non committal (because you only should be retreating this) against opponent's who are in any sort of action with all the time in the world to buffer something like up tilt afterwards.

And since the ftilt tipper range buff I've felt his ability to hit people close range with it has increased significantly, have not had any instance of it whiffing people point blank since (although no pikas in my life), in fact it seems to just auto tipper anyone who's close to you.

 

[Vipermoon]

Nair and Fair are the super auto tippers for me. When you think about it, easy tippers kind of takes the skill out of things. But whatever, he needed something and this was it.

 

[Loachy]

And since the ftilt tipper range buff I've felt his ability to hit people close range with it has increased significantly, have not had any instance of it whiffing people point blank since (although no pikas in my life), in fact it seems to just auto tipper anyone who's close to you.

Really? Damn, I've been having almost the opposite experience with that move since the buff. I have to tell myself to deliberately stand "too far" cuz I'm so used to the sweetspot being closer