Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Jterr]

Lucina's Utilt doesn't slide her forward like Marth's. This is one of the very few things that Lucina has over Marth.

yeah I don't know if its an advantage or not. I can see moving forward with up tilt helping in some situations. It only moves him slightly forward.

 

[DariusM27]

I think it looks cool. Also, if you utilt and someone shields it, depending on if you used reverse utilt or not, it could help your spacing and safety.

 

[Vipermoon]

You have to do a second Utilt or another move to get the step forward. In this patch, I wouldn't even call it a small step... it's pretty large actually. I've missed Utilt in training and then had the second one sour spot!

The biggest advantage Lucina's has over Marth is sliding Utilt (or sliding anything actually). Let's say you're walking or running into an Utilt or a spot dodge. Lucina will slide before stopping. Marth immediately stops.

 

[Pugwest]

Pugwest are you done telling people about Marth's Usmash yet? Honestly, that isn't cool at all. You're a relatively famous, respected Marth so that kind of thing will spread and people will believe you. I saw you going around twitter with that and there were some smashboards posts mentioning your Usmash "discovery"
But anyway, hopefully you know by now that we have all of Marth's hitbox differences data mined and Usmash is unchanged.

I'll believe you guys. I guess i'm just consistant at landing up-smash punishes that I thought weren't possible before.

Have we named d-throw into u-air or b-air yet? Seeing as how every characters d-throw into u-air has a name.

 

[Darklink401]

Please be confident in your testing before making claims and publishing videos about Marth having down throw set ups.
It wouldn't be the first time. It probably won't be the last time, unless you actually tested things properly through and through and in practice it matches up (cool if ZSS can be done in by this through all options).

I have probably tested this for at least 4-5 hours total, pre-patch and post-patch. I am pretty darn confident xD
I myself haven't tried it in training mode to test it, but I have gotten it a couple times just in regular matches, and I've seen peopl online post videos with the dthrow upair kills as well (and talk in the Marth discord about it working)

Thank you! That's what I'm saying. That video has over 40,000 views Darklink401 and we still have no reason to believe you can't air dodge unless a there was a universal change which is unlikely. Like I said, you didn't say anything wrong, but just read the comments. It is filled with people assuming it is all new despite what you said in the video. People thanking Sakurai in there and for what exactly? The biggest thing that happened is that Uair kills much earlier at a percent where you are more likely to get the follow-up. I mean, it showed as a combo in training so you wouldn't be able to jump out... but air dodge? Almost definitely.

The reason why I think this is a big deal is because a video this popular will fill people's heads with fulfillment on Marth and everyone will think the character is done. He won't be buffed anymore and that's it. No high tier Marth all because they saw that people were happy. That's actually the only reason I care.

Shaya Will you be going back to Marth or are you still on the Roy path? Roy's landing lag changes seem like a big deal for his game plan.

I told ya XD I've tried airdodging pre-patch before and it was a no-go. Unless there was a universal change that made you able to airdodge even sooner now, but I doubt that's the case.

And I have read the comments, and replied to most of them, giving clarifications when possible. And well, people thanking sakurai because he buffed Marth, silly :D

I am perfectly fine with how Marth is now, I would be okay with no more buffs xD Tho....yknow, fixing those active frames would be nice...

Pugwest people in the comments on my video were making up names for it

I personally lol'd at "Mi-nah" xD

 

[LancerStaff]

The biggest advantage Lucina's has over Marth is sliding Utilt (or sliding anything actually). Let's say you're walking or running into an Utilt or a spot dodge. Lucina will slide before stopping. Marth immediately stops.

Wether or not a move slides or not is set for each individual move... Actually it's set on a particular frame on each move.

Marth and Lucina both get sliding Dsmashes, (grab a Bunny Hood and it'll be clear as day,) Lucina gets a sliding Utilt, and Lucina gets a sliding spotdodge but it only slides for the first few frames. Also Ike can slide with either D or Usmash (either as in I don't remember ), but only while charging.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'll believe you guys. I guess i'm just consistant at landing up-smash punishes that I thought weren't possible before.

Have we named d-throw into u-air or b-air yet? Seeing as how every characters d-throw into u-air has a name.

If it has anything to do with hitboxes, we have the game data comparison between both patches on Marth's entire moveset right here https://www.diffchecker.com/zq6ncwvg

Tiki already named it for us! It will be called Mar-Mar.

And I have read the comments, and replied to most of them, giving clarifications when possible. And well, people thanking sakurai because he buffed Marth, silly :D

You know what I meant. They were thanking Sakurai for the stuff they saw in your video when in reality, only the aerials changed.

 

[Jterr]

If it has anything to do with hitboxes, we have the game data comparison between both patches on Marth's entire moveset right here https://www.diffchecker.com/zq6ncwvg

Tiki already named it for us! It will be called Mar-Mar.

You know what I meant. They were thanking Sakurai for the stuff they saw in your video when in reality, only the aerials changed.

I love Tiki and Marth but Marth and Caeda for the win :D Mar-Mar would be hilarious lol

 

[Pugwest]

If it has anything to do with hitboxes, we have the game data comparison between both patches on Marth's entire moveset right here https://www.diffchecker.com/zq6ncwvg

Tiki already named it for us! It will be called Mar-Mar.

You know what I meant. They were thanking Sakurai for the stuff they saw in your video when in reality, only the aerials changed.

That could be it, i feel like the ground hit boxes are way better and actually suck characters in now.

Mar-Mar.. oh boy... we need a voting page.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I personally like "tip the hat" because they are overhead.

Anyway, Vipermoon Shaya Bowserboy3 and at all you other regulars who lab. I think we should start up MU discussion again.

I think we can set up something with a tangible testing scenario if we can work with other mains top labbers on discord/ Skype or here where we spend a few weeks labbing the MUs with those players. We can take notes and share our findings with each other and then test again to confirm how the neutral goes in such and such matchup. Hell, we can upload videos while we are at it.

I say we get started with ZSS or Shiek just to see how we stack up against the top. I know I have some tricks of my own that I use, but I'm interested in where this goes.

 

[Vipermoon]

That could be it, i feel like the ground hit boxes are way better and actually suck characters in now.

Mar-Mar.. oh boy... we need a voting page.

No, what I'm saying is that they put it in a diff checker. There are no differences in the Usmash section. Usmash is unchanged, guaranteed.

 

[DariusM27]

So, server down for maintenance, for almost an hour now. Any ideas as to why?

 

[Ffamran]

So, server down for maintenance, for almost an hour now. Any ideas as to why?

The Corrin glitches? The one where you essentially enter a T-pose if she hits you and the infinite grab on ZSS or whatever? I'm going to assume those are the reasons why there might be a hotfix. That or just weekly maintenance.

Anyway, I tried out Marth in training mode... I tested his Ftilt which was pretty much my favorite move... WHAT DID THEY GIVE HIM!? O_O

Ftilt now has 23 recovery frames... 23 recovery frames on a frame 8 move that can do 12% and kill. Oh, and it kind of brings it more in line with Roy's Ftilt which also kills fairly well. Hey, developers, can Falco have Melee Ganondorf's Ftilt now? Or at least some base knockback... The funny part is that Falco's Ftilt pretty much has Melee Ganondorf's Ftilt active and recovery frames... All it needs is its power.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It took me until Vitamin ZK released a patch notes video to realise that Marth's Dtilt can hit ledge hanging opponents... silly me...

For those wanting visual differences, here is the video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBVr2_a0VDo&t=1m50s

 

[Shaya]

I think the ideal at this stage would be to figure out exactly what match ups are best/worst for each and divide up preferences.
I feel like Roy's difficult match ups would be better with these landing lag buffs in a lot of cases, but the difficult ones should still remain.
Marth probably covers a lot more well and in his current state in which reactive spacing has been buffed (my brawl forte) it's hard not to think that he'd be more potent overall than the alternative (in the match ups that shouldn't be a best/worst for either).

---

I've been getting down throw up airs or bairs on opponents for over a year already, but I've never gone out of my way to convince people it was real.
If people poorly DI, bang. If people buffer an air dodge too early during the throw animation, bang. If you have no rage on top of this, maybe bang.

But I've not seen it work on an opponent expecting it in the regular conditions of a match in any patch thus far.
You saying 'you're confident' while still essentially not explaining how extensive your testing methods are is a problem. Whether that be awareness of how the throws worked in prior patches, that training mode's counter is inaccurate or how other forms of DI than just holding away or nothing could change things.
But whatever, I'm just anal about anything and everything that isn't of a high and respectable standard of rigorous testing especially if it's then published and misconstrues the situation to a wider audience.

Our up air becoming a more serious kill option at medium heights was what came into this patch; poor decisions made by opponents during down throw or other vertical choices (up tilt, up air itself, etc) can now feasibly kill and that awareness MUST be implemented into your game. It's of significant impact.
Down Throw itself has nothing to do with this, it hasn't been changed from what we know thus far (I think that's a 100% confirmed thing from @Lavani IIRC), and unless there has been an unknown engine change (this is possible, and if so that's a much bigger thing to look into; air dodge out of tumble nerfs?) or something like vertical acceleration on our mid air jump was altered then most characters can avoid follow ups from down throw very early on.

 

[Vipermoon]

It took me until Vitamin ZK released a patch notes video to realise that Marth's Dtilt can hit ledge hanging opponents... silly me...

For those wanting visual differences, here is the video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBVr2_a0VDo&t=1m50s

I've hit at the ledge with tipper Dtilt. And it's against characters that hang low (don't keep their face above). It's pretty tough though.

 

[Sir Lancelot]

Have we named d-throw into u-air or b-air yet? Seeing as how every characters d-throw into u-air has a name.

From Darklink's video comments: the Mi-Nah or the Tip-Pah

 

[Vipermoon]

20% Tip because it'll deal about that damage (esp with pummel). BAM! I'm good. If not Mar-Mar, then this. But whatever, this isn't a real hoo hah so I shouldn't care.

Shaya To add to that, LordWilliam did the same thing he does every patch comfirming that Marth's throws are the same duration.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Me vs NEO

Took awhile for them to get put up but hopefully everyone can learn something from this master swordsman.

 

[DariusM27]

I think the ideal at this stage would be to figure out exactly what match ups are best/worst for each and divide up preferences.
I feel like Roy's difficult match ups would be better with these landing lag buffs in a lot of cases, but the difficult ones should still remain.
Marth probably covers a lot more well and in his current state in which reactive spacing has been buffed (my brawl forte) it's hard not to think that he'd be more potent overall than the alternative (in the match ups that shouldn't be a best/worst for either).

---

I've been getting down throw up airs or bairs on opponents for over a year already, but I've never gone out of my way to convince people it was real.
If people poorly DI, bang. If people buffer an air dodge too early during the throw animation, bang. If you have no rage on top of this, maybe bang.

But I've not seen it work on an opponent expecting it in the regular conditions of a match in any patch thus far.
You saying 'you're confident' while still essentially not explaining how extensive your testing methods are is a problem. Whether that be awareness of how the throws worked in prior patches, that training mode's counter is inaccurate or how other forms of DI than just holding away or nothing could change things.
But whatever, I'm just anal about anything and everything that isn't of a high and respectable standard of rigorous testing especially if it's then published and misconstrues the situation to a wider audience.

Our up air becoming a more serious kill option at medium heights was what came into this patch; poor decisions made by opponents during down throw or other vertical choices (up tilt, up air itself, etc) can now feasibly kill and that awareness MUST be implemented into your game. It's of significant impact.
Down Throw itself has nothing to do with this, it hasn't been changed from what we know thus far (I think that's a 100% confirmed thing from @Lavani IIRC), and unless there has been an unknown engine change (this is possible, and if so that's a much bigger thing to look into; air dodge out of tumble nerfs?) or something like vertical acceleration on our mid air jump was altered then most characters can avoid follow ups from down throw very early on.

So how long have you been an atheist? Lol I'm

Yeah, one thing we can say for sure is that our dthrow combos kill earlier than ever.

Also, our spacing is safer than ever, and Marth can actually do shield pressure now. Like, hardcore shield pressure.

Me vs NEO

Took awhile for them to get put up but hopefully everyone can learn something from this master swordsman.

Tough break at the end tho...

 

[Vipermoon]

Me vs NEO

Took awhile for them to get put up but hopefully everyone can learn something from this master swordsman.

https://youtu.be/T3fWEDU6yac?t=21m4s The way Nair misses at this moment is a huge slap in the face from Sakurai.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3fWEDU6yac&feature=youtu.be&t=21m11s Ah, the famous Archilles Heel. For those of you who don't know what that is on Marth, scroll down to the Counter GIF in here http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/ and take a look at his foot/heel.

EL, you have been a Marth main in every game and you DI the Uthrow FORWARD!? Um, 93 degree KB angle! Hello!

I really like Neo's play-style. Unless Dash Attack gets good in a patch, those accidental Dash Attacks almost make all the tech skill not worth it. But that's okay he'll only get better at it.

He dropped a few easy edgeguard Counters. Most of them weren't easy but there were many super obvious ones. And not just your side B. When you were recovering with SRK and he was hanging on the ledge, he decided to roll instead of drop counter.

MU: This specific MU is easily better post-patch but pretty crappy pre-patch and almost entirely because of Ryu's damage and kill set-ups.

Also, this happened way too many times: as a general rule with Marth in every Smash game when you have someone in a knockdown get-up situation at the ledge you have a free charged Fsmash. Charging SB or Dtilting just isn't as good.

All of these comments are respectful of course because the man is a better Marth than me.

What isn't better is his color! Mac & Cheese Marth is the ugliest. Side note, so glad his hair always stayed the same for his Alts.

Ranking Time (IMO)

Normal > Blue (this would be the better one if the boots were the same as normal and not blue) > Black (this would be the BEST if the inside of the cape was Black and not Yellow) > Green > Red (Ken) > Silver/White > Purple (Roy) > Mac & Chesse (Gold)

 

[FallenHero]

Normal > Blue (this would be better if the boots were the same as normal and not blue) > Black (this would be the BEST if the inside of the cape was Black and not Yellow) > Green > Red (Ken) > Silver/White > Purple (Roy) > Mac & Chesse (Gold)

Red Marth > Everything else. That is a fact if you disagree your opinion is wrong. jk lol I love Red Marth

 

[CURRY]

What isn't better is his color! Mac & Cheese Marth is the ugliest.

Hey... I prefer "gold Marth."
I just use default though. I always feel terrible about using a color when I lose, and that happens to me a lot.
Never knew about the Counter thing; that sucks, but it also explains so many things that I've been wondering before.

I would like to share a small revelation-- although, maybe many of you have thought about this already:
With the 1.1.4 patch, our ftilt moves us slightly forward.
Our utilt already moved us slightly forward in previous patches.
This leaves dtilt as the one tilt that does NOT move us forward. Exact opposite of Brawl tilts.
This irks me, as I loved the easy tippers with dtilt in Brawl by overspacing it, then spamming it one or two more times.
It would've been kind of applicable now too, because our sword is just longer overall!

Ehh.

 

[Vipermoon]

Personally, I want to be the only one controlling my movement. Okay maybe I'll take the forward step for Dtilt so that when I'm Dtilting a shield at the ledge and they drop shield, the next Dtilt doesn't miss (since the lack of shield makes them way skinnier).

You know what I dislike? Not having whole numbers for damages. That's just a personal thing though.

This is the first time ever that Marth didn't have whole numbers for damage in all of his moves. Now he has a few halfs. Lucina's super messed up damage numbers are a lot worse than something as trivial as half a percent. This is why I can never main her even if she was otherwise Melee Marth reincarnated but without tippers.

 

[Shaya]

So how long have you been an atheist? Lol I'm

Yeah, one thing we can say for sure is that our dthrow combos kill earlier than ever.

Also, our spacing is safer than ever, and Marth can actually do shield pressure now. Like, hardcore shield pressure.


Tough break at the end tho...

"I'm just anal about anything and everything ... especially if it's then published and misconstrues the situation to a wider audience." right?
I chuckled

At least say down throw strings or just plainly 'up air' #_#

And I really love well spaced jab pressure right now and feeling pretty free to throw out ftilt on notice.



---

I really find it weird that dash attack didn't see anything this time around.
I suppose it does kinda have a weird niche for follow ups that knock people into the ground (I think to some extent dash attacking will get you further distance than dash db).

Although Neo's consistency for fox trot away pp dtilt is high, he's essentially throwing it out to no effect whatsoever in neutral and shouldn't be considered much more than "free time to practice tech" through the way neutral works out on wifi. Although it does reflect the more "correct" play style Marth mains should be looking for. For learning onlookers, the use of these movement techs can sometimes not end in an attack; double backing or dash trot away into back in pp shield for example [or just dash trot away->in to shield/dash trot in, pp back shield, so on and so forth - oh and you can also spot dodge too] for pressure through alteration, however that would be ever so slightly [actually heavily] more aggressive (which is not really optimal).

When EL gave Neo space, neo thrived with having significantly more time than should be expected (even with a slower mobility char like Ryu) to set up spacing and find ways in with mid range fairs through pseudo baits. But when hitboxes were there (whilst not trying to beat full hop aerials with [often hard] reads, plz EL) and the squandering of stage control was capitalized on, it didn't matter much.

With this latest patch, Neo's Marth is going to be noticeably more potent and I think the game play throughout this video would've been working out better for him, but a bit more emphasis on jab and vertical scenarios (for up air) are likely to be at the least worth playing with.
Considering Neo probably pioneered "Up Throw DK because juggles, lol" during Brawl, I'm surprised at how 99.99% of his Marth is horizontal focused.

 

[CanadianCourage]

Hello guys, just wondering if anyone has marth/lucina's new data for safety on shields? For example is fair on lucina safe now?

 

[Vipermoon]

"I'm just anal about anything and everything ... especially if it's then published and misconstrues the situation to a wider audience." right?
I chuckled

At least say down throw strings or just plainly 'up air' #_#

And I really love well spaced jab pressure right now and feeling pretty free to throw out ftilt on notice.



---

I really find it weird that dash attack didn't see anything this time around (oh and jab2 didn't get the same range buff?).
I suppose it does kinda have a weird niche for follow ups that knock people into the ground (I think to some extent dash attacking will get you further distance than dash db).

Although Neo's consistency for fox trot away pp dtilt is high, he's essentially throwing it out to no effect whatsoever in neutral and shouldn't be considered much more than "free time to practice tech" through the way neutral works out on wifi. Although it does reflect the more "correct" play style Marth mains should be looking for. For learning onlookers, the use of these movement techs can sometimes not end in an attack; double backing or dash trot away into back in pp shield for example [or just dash trot away->in to shield/dash trot in, pp back shield, so on and so forth] for pressure, however that would be ever so slightly [actually heavily] more aggressive (which is not really optimal).

When EL gave Neo space, neo thrived with being given significantly more time than should be expected (even with a slower mobility char like Ryu) to set up spacing and find ways in with mid range fairs through pseudo baits. But when hitboxes were there (whilst not trying to beat full hop aerials with [often hard] reads, plz EL) and the squandering of stage control was capitalized on, it didn't matter much.

With this latest patch, Neo's Marth is going to be noticeably more potent and I think the game play throughout this video would've been working out better for him, but a bit more emphasis on jab and vertical scenarios (for up air) are likely to be at the least worth playing with.
Considering Neo probably pioneered "Up Throw DK because juggles, lol" during Brawl, I'm surprised at how 99.99% of his Marth is horizontal focused.

Maybe they think Dancing Blade is OP enough that he doesn't deserve a Dash Attack? I don't know. It's probably that plus they want us walking more (it's a game tip after all) which is a good time to say that I'm mostly certain his walking acceleration is better. I just won't go around posting about it or making a video *ahem* because I'm waiting for the Param files.

Jab 2 received the same range buff (would it hurt to look at the patch notes or the diff checker link?) it just had less range than Jab 1 before so it still does now.

Edit: really good write-up on Neo

 

[LancerStaff]

Marth's walking acceleration got buffed? I'd take a closer look if my friend didn't want his 3DS back... I'll see if I can have it again tomorrow (he don't care much lol) and compare. But I don't have a good way to record it if that's what you want.

Considering Marth's walking accel value was zero before it's not hard to see why they'd buff it. What's the point in having the fastest walking speed when you'll literally never reach that speed?

 

[Ffamran]

A walking acceleration of 0... That makes absolutely no sense... You need some acceleration to move from speed to speed... The only way I can see it is that characters with 0 walk accelerations, Charizard, Ike, Lucina, Marth, Robin, Shulk, and Triple D, is that they have "set" walk speeds while others gradually "shift" into their walk speeds. So, when Ike walks slowly, he's at whatever speed that is and when he walks at max speed, he's at that speed without needing accelerate into it. In contrast, Mario walking slowly has him take some time to tip-toe into it and when he walks quickly, he starts at a slower speed before walking at max speed. This makes sense considering that Ike, Lucina, Marth, and Robin pretty much jog during their "walk" while characters like Falco and Fox start off walking, but move into a jog or power walk and the Pits and Sheik skip, so do "start" slower, but reaches top speed one they've got their rhythm... Then there are contradictions as Link and Samus also jog during their walk, so they should have no walk acceleration, but they do at 0.1 like the others. Charizard having no walk acceleration while Bowser and Ganondorf having some walk acceleration, 0.05 and 0.03, is curious since they are heavyweights who sort of have to propel themselves and use momentum to move themselves... which for Ganondorf makes no sense since he's not a turtle or a dinosaur thing trying to walk bipedal.

So, theory on why a group of characters have no walk acceleration: considering that all the Fire Emblem characters outside or maybe Corrin have the same dash to shield frames, dash length in frames, walk acceleration - not sure on Roy's -, grab hit frames - only Ike's st. grab deviates by being 1 frame slower -, and the fact other characters like Little Mac sharing Captain Falcon's grounded / pitfall pose, their walk acceleration and other stats are just copied and pasted. Shulk starting off from Ike as a template isn't far-fetched, so he's probably suffering this as well... This pretty much screws over Ike and Robin considering they aren't exactly the most mobile characters on the ground compared to Lucina, Marth, and Roy.

 

[LancerStaff]

They definitely accelerate. There's just something else in the math somewhere... The acceleration values are "increase speed by X amount per frame" and not at all related to the top walking speed. IDK, it's all very weird math muddled by other mechanics like traction or something basically making the numbers meaningless to us. When I said you literally wouldn't reach the speed I ment like in a real match, not some mathematical paradox.

Pretty sure had .2 or .3 or something like that. She's got the highest walking acceleration doesn't she? Kurogane ought to get that up sometime, since walking speed pretty much means nothing without acceleration.

 

[Loachy]

Ranking Time (IMO)

Normal > Blue (this would be the better one if the boots were the same as normal and not blue) > Black (this would be the BEST if the inside of the cape was Black and not Yellow) > Green > Red (Ken) > Silver/White > Purple (Roy) > Mac & Chesse (Gold)

WHAT you put Green and Black over Red?!

Red > Normal > White > Black > Green > Roy > Yellow > Blue

I wish Green still had the darker clothes and black cape that it used to. Well almost black

 

[Ffamran]

Pretty sure had .2 or .3 or something like that. She's got the highest walking acceleration doesn't she? Kurogane ought to get that up sometime, since walking speed pretty much means nothing without acceleration.

I'm going off of Toomai's data: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333, and I don't recall anywhere else where walk accelerations and initial dash speeds are recorded and mentioned regularly not the mention how I don't think people bother to test walk accelerations every patch.

 

[Vipermoon]

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2#post-18647333

Older reference.

Slightly related: just want to mention that Corrin's initial walk is sooooo slow.

Loachy The green one still looks awesome and I'm sure part of the reason for that is its rarity. I want black capes

 

[Ffamran]

I still to this day wonder what would happen if there was a character whose walk speed was faster than their run speed or just barely slower than their run speed. By barely, I'm not talking about Falco and Wolf barely slower, but something like run speed is 1.61 while walk speed is 1.60. First idea would be hella stupid, but interesting to see what would happen while the other idea would also be hella stupid since there would be no point to ever running. Dashing at least has a purpose for dash attacks, dash grabs, and pivot grabs, but everything else? Just walk which gives you more freedom to do whatever.

Edit: Oh, and character with equal movement speed in everything; so, walk, run, (initial) dash, fall, and air speed are all equal at say, 1.2. Would be one weird character.

 

[Shaya]

I removed that blight on my honour.


Also for an interesting note on balance in the Marth / Lucina cycle.

The balance team are definitely reading what we post. Maybe. And otherwise have a nice level of insight previously not seen.
Having Marth's tippers become easier through placement would disproportionately nerf Lucina considerably (even with matching the hitbox changes) just because the ease of getting tippers has gone up a lot: 32.9% overlap to 18.6% overlap. No matter how you spin it, Marth not only got a range buff, but his 'mechanical' difference got easier and more potent on a lot of moves. This equates to them, going by what moves they believe are best/simplest (not just this patch but throughout all this time: back air, forward tilt in particular and dtilt/utilt in other patches) is to stem the gap between damages.
They've likely taken into consideration the power gained from having sour spots [follow ups lasting for a lot longer] throughout this time as well - Marth can choose to go for easier follow up or a relatively (compared to her) strong kill move; this was disgustingly obvious throughout all this time with forward tilt and back air for us, "why use Lucina at all?" was purely competitive logic.

In the case of aerials this time around, prior to this patch Lucina had her aerial safety on shield be completely matched by Marth's sour spots whils worse than tippers; this honestly equated to yet another significant reason for why there wasn't a practical reason to use one over the other, they likely realised their blunder.
The damage value differences on aerials are now shaping up to be pretty consistent across the board. Marth's tippers are +1 safer on shield than Lucina who is +1 safer on shield than Marth's sours. The exception being Forward Air which are tied (compensation for it's usability/dps) and neutral air which the first hits are tied and marth's sour second hit not being worse than Lucina's.
The uncanny closeness of damage whilst maintaining the golden ratio of safety isn't a coincidence.
Furthermore alternating moves have a possibility of being safer on block whilst fresh (guess!); Marth's fair and first hit nair [i.e. rewarding for either landing pokes], and Lucina's bair and second hit nair [i.e. kill moves for Marth]).

I would say that Lucina having trivially less damage on moves which scales the same as Marth sours (i.e. not fsmash) whilst he maintains better base kb and/or growth on tippers would likely be fair overall because the closer we get to a comboing character through optimization and frame buffs the further the gap will become. Either way the overall position for Lucina right now seems to be the closest to Marth in overall capabilities since release, and for the first time a definite logical middle ground in power between tippers, Lucina and sours, congratulations Nintendo/Namco.
Reality of the dynamic before was poor design; but it felt intended for both of them. Marth has a slew of more reliable kill moves which when spaced that way were also safer than Lucina. I'm sure everyone right now is feeling the significant benefits of Marth's tipper fair and uair killing earlier (and the rest too but proportionately in increasing viability) and are very happy, especially as spacing the still safer aerials are even easier.

If you hadn't seen earlier, I put together a spreadsheet for character's aerial safety data, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GcccIxzB2tBhTxDDlJPNHd72MVQ95wG5RfnHroDgMc8 - I was updating for the patch [still need to do corrin/bay] but you can check out Mars/Lucina/Roy there. For interest sake, Marth is +1 safer on tipper block this patch with all the noted -2 on flub aerials.

I hope this was coherent #_#

 

[Bowserboy3]

Side note, so glad his hair always stayed the same for his Alts.

Ranking Time (IMO)

Normal > Blue (this would be the better one if the boots were the same as normal and not blue) > Black (this would be the BEST if the inside of the cape was Black and not Yellow) > Green > Red (Ken) > Silver/White > Purple (Roy) > Mac & Chesse (Gold)

I too am glad the hair stayed the same. I don't really mind the Gold Marth, though my ranking would go...

Normal > White > Red > Green > Blue (like you, if the boots were brown like in the normal swap, this would be ranked in 2nd) > Gold > Roy > Black (this one is last because it seems almost every other Marth player I see online/play against in tourney uses it, and it kinda gets old for me).

 

[DariusM27]

"I'm just anal about anything and everything ... especially if it's then published and misconstrues the situation to a wider audience." right?
I chuckled

Yup, hahaha. Shhhh, lol


Also, I think black marth seems a tougher look than normal. Then red, normal, white, blue, Mac and cheese.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just a question, has this data ever been updated anywhere?

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

I found this a very useful/helpful tool in the past. Also, it would be interesting to see the data of 1.1.4 Marth compared to Brawl, rather than vanilla Smash 4 Marth compared to Brawl.

I'd have a go at updating it myself, but i'm no expert with data.

 

[Darklink401]

Wasn't Melee Falco faster at walking than running? Except in that game wavedashing exists so it's not as beneficial to walk.

Marth certainly does seem to actually have some acceleration to his walk now, but we shall wait and see.

 

[Vipermoon]

I removed that blight on my honour.


Also for an interesting note on balance in the Marth / Lucina cycle.

The balance team are definitely reading what we post. Maybe. And otherwise have a nice level of insight previously not seen.
Having Marth's tippers become easier through placement would disproportionately nerf Lucina considerably (even with matching the hitbox changes) just because the ease of getting tippers has gone up a lot: 32.9% overlap to 18.6% overlap. No matter how you spin it, Marth not only got a range buff, but his 'mechanical' difference got easier and more potent on a lot of moves. This equates to them, going by what moves they believe are best/simplest (not just this patch but throughout all this time: back air, forward tilt in particular and dtilt/utilt in other patches) is to stem the gap between damages.
They've likely taken into consideration the power gained from having sour spots [follow ups lasting for a lot longer] throughout this time as well - Marth can choose to go for easier follow up or a relatively (compared to her) strong kill move; this was disgustingly obvious throughout all this time with forward tilt and back air for us, "why use Lucina at all?" was purely competitive logic.

In the case of aerials this time around, prior to this patch Lucina had her aerial safety on shield be completely matched by Marth's sour spots and was safer on tipper; this honestly equated to yet another significant reason for why there wasn't a practical reason to use one over the other, they've likely realised their blunder.
The damage value differences seen in this patch by the way aerials are shaping up are now pretty consistent across the board. Marth's tippers are +1 safer on shield than Lucina who is +1 safer on shield than Marth's sours. The exception being Forward Air which are tied (compensation for it's usability/dps) and neutral air which the first hits are tied and marth's sour second hit not being worse than Lucina's.
The uncanny closeness of damage whilst maintaining the golden ratio of safety isn't a coincidence.
Furthermore alternating moves have a possibility of being safer on block whilst fresh (guess!); Marth's fair and first hit nair [i.e. rewarding for either landing pokes], and Lucina's bair and second hit nair [i.e. kill moves for Marth]).

I would say that Lucina having trivially less damage on moves which scales the same as Marth sours (i.e. not fsmash) whilst he maintains better base kb and/or growth on tippers would likely be fair overall because the closer we get to a comboing character with optimization and these frame buffs the further the gap will become. Either way the overall situation for Lucina right now seems to be the closest to Marth in overall capabilities since release with for the first time a definite logical middle ground in power between the tippers, Lucina and sours, congratulations Nintendo/Namco.
Reality of the dynamic before was poor design; but it felt intended for both of them. Marth has a slew of more reliable kill moves which when spaced that way were also safer than Lucina. I'm sure everyone right now is feeling the significant benefits of Marth's tipper fair and uair killing earlier (and the rest too but for actually increasing viability) and are very happy, especially as spacing the still safer aerials are even easier.

If you hadn't seen earlier, I put together a spreadsheet for character's aerial safety data, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GcccIxzB2tBhTxDDlJPNHd72MVQ95wG5RfnHroDgMc8 - I was updating for the patch [still need to do corrin/bay] but you can check out Mars/Lucina/Roy there. For interest sake, Marth is +1 safer on tipper block this patch with all the noted -2 on flub aerials.

I hope this was coherent #_#

By the way, the sword's sourspot was moved 0.5 units (2 to 2.5) for Ftilt and Bair so there is still some overlap for these.