iLight
Smash Lord
instead of using u-tilt when he's above you a lot of snakes will be cocky and try to bair you anyways straight through u-smash, which ends in their death
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Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread
- Thread starter stealth3654
- Start date
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Not having a platform can be a problem but snake is in the same boat and when I fight snakes I like having a lot of space to run which stages like BF doesn't give.Hmmm good stuff Tristan.
I don't like FD very much against Snake just because it makes it extremely hard for me to ever get up from the ledge safely due to not having platforms of some kind.
I would suggest not ever ftilting until he blows you up and instead playing the ftilt game against Snake almost similar to Marth because trading damage with Snake is not something you want to be doing.
Most Snakes when hit offstage immediately use their double jump, so if you predict and steal their double jump with a fair it forces them to rack on damage with C4.
A situational trick that works best on SV. If the moving platform is in the right place and Snake is recovering below it and it looks like he's going to be forced to use a C4, jump towards him and let him sticky you.
That's about all I got at the moment, I still have trouble in this matchup.
Well honestly if your doing the Ftilt right you should never be able to get grenades out of it but if your doing ftilt combos when they wont work doing things like Ftilt into Dtilt, Ftilt into Grab upthrow, and Ftilt inot uair will work. I've only done this once but if you get the timing down for the Ftilt why not take the look at your opponent controller, if you see him hitting B rapidly he wont be able to respond correctly if you grab him or dtilt.
I've found that if you hit snake with fair when he's trying to recover he will a lot of the time do another up B as soon as possible and even DI toward the stage so a little trick I've only recently been using is after I fair snake is to immediately do a up B back to the stage. Because of snake up B he will run right into the vanish, it's worked three times so far.
That last piece of advice though is genius, I'll have to try it sometime when I have the balls.
Nikita has a lot of starting time and is slow on start up so it's possible to retract and shield it before it hits. Because of snakes poor jumps he cannot jump over you without help of his up B so odds are you will never have to worry about falling nikita. Grenades is snakes best option but funny enough if strongly thrown they will fly over sheiks head if he's just out side of Ftilt range (which he will be because of the chain) when weakly thrown I've found it's best to just take the 4% if I'm still chaining and retract. Since cooking grenades take time it's pretty obvious when he's doing it so retract.
I'm not suggesting Sheik can chain camp snake but as a spacing tool and poke the chain is very good against snake. Before I started using it I felt the match up was not in sheik favor now I feel it's even or maybe even in sheik's but only time will tell.
Also don't think, test. Theorizing that the chain wont work against so and so is exactly why it's so under used. I'm am not a great player, there are plenty of players who use sheik who are just better then me but because I use Sheiks tools my Sheik is better then there's.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Good point tristan. I guess it could be fairly safe to use every now and then. And trust me i do test the chain quite often actually. All my info on the chain is a result of me using it in fights and getting hit or having it work. Thats how i learned that you can have chain jacket get hit by another move and cancel the chain ( i got hit by an oli smash after he faired the chain).
What i was saying was that snake can lob a grenade over ur head the strip it to stop all momentum so it lands directly behind and above you. No cooking required. He can even do it with a weak item throw from far away and strip it right on top of you.
But i see what you are saying and i will definitely try incorporating it into my game.
iLight
Smash Lord
Ok some notes about characters that I have learned from last tournament
Ike - sheik crouching/d-tilt > ike jabs
Wario - I now believe this match up to be a minimum of 60/40 wario's favor based on a few reasons
Reasoning:
-Wario is much faster than sheik in the air
-Sheik has a more ground based combo/punish game
-Sheik cannot catch wario in the air
-Sheik gets gimped hard by wario
Basically it comes down to you will not be able to grab a top level wario player enough or at important moments to get a good enough benefit from release grab to sweet spot u-smash. Not to mention you can't kill him with it till like 120+ if its fresh.
Also, though sheik's ground speed is comparable to wario's air speed she cannot consistently change momentum on the ground+keep track of spacing as well as wario can on even close to the same level.
Wario fair/fart(while recovering) ***** sheik hard
Wario's mix ups/general game play is based around his aerial game/super armoring attacks.
(aka good for punishing players who camp the ground much more than the air)
Therefore if sheik cannot catch him in the air +
Sheik has a more ground based game +
Wario is made to punish people on the ground +
Wario is nearly uncatchable in the air by sheik +
Has a much easier time ledge guarding sheik almost comparable to MK for us =
60+/40- wario's favor
Ike - sheik crouching/d-tilt > ike jabs
Wario - I now believe this match up to be a minimum of 60/40 wario's favor based on a few reasons
Reasoning:
-Wario is much faster than sheik in the air
-Sheik has a more ground based combo/punish game
-Sheik cannot catch wario in the air
-Sheik gets gimped hard by wario
Basically it comes down to you will not be able to grab a top level wario player enough or at important moments to get a good enough benefit from release grab to sweet spot u-smash. Not to mention you can't kill him with it till like 120+ if its fresh.
Also, though sheik's ground speed is comparable to wario's air speed she cannot consistently change momentum on the ground+keep track of spacing as well as wario can on even close to the same level.
Wario fair/fart(while recovering) ***** sheik hard
Wario's mix ups/general game play is based around his aerial game/super armoring attacks.
(aka good for punishing players who camp the ground much more than the air)
Therefore if sheik cannot catch him in the air +
Sheik has a more ground based game +
Wario is made to punish people on the ground +
Wario is nearly uncatchable in the air by sheik +
Has a much easier time ledge guarding sheik almost comparable to MK for us =
60+/40- wario's favor
Tristan_win
Not dead.
I'm not surprise about ike jab that's becoming a pretty common recurrence with Sheik, still good to known though.
Your thoughts about Wario though I want to argue against since for ever Wario I've faced I've either ***** or came out thinking the match was in Sheik favor. Right now I honestly think it's 60/40 in Sheik favor but I've never fought or rather I don't think I've ever fought a tournament winning Wario before...
I'm not even sure if there's even a wario user in VA/MD.
iLight
Smash Lord
After fighting a handful of the top wario player's this is the conclusion i have come to.
i've fought PX, DMG, and Bassem only one i'm missing i think is Fiction and this is definitely the conclusion i have reached
tristan, tell me why you think its in sheik's favor on than because you won
Im going to say that the wario/sheik matchup is either 55-45 wario's favor or 60-40 wario's favor. It is DEFINITELY not sheik's advantage though. Im one of the top wario players and light is a great sheik player (I dont know how he ranks among you guys but he seems pretty skilled to me) and I think he had quite a hard time dealing with wario.
Sheik has better priority and a projectile to use against wario as well as the grab release upsmash. Thats why Im considering 55-45 wario. However, if the wario player were to get a decent lead and aircamp, sheik wouldnt be able to kill for him for quite a while. Wario has also got better aerial mobility and killing potential to use against sheik as well as a better recovery. His weight makes it even harder for sheik to kill him (without grab release upsmash).
So yeah, I would say 55-45 if no aircamp and 60-40 if the wario aircamps.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
One grab against Wario can potentially end his stock.
Under 40% there's the footstool combo, which leads to a regrab.
After that there's the grab release pivot grab. Then in the end there's the GR up smash tipper, which isn't even a DACUS, and thus full proof (yea I said it <3).
I just wanted to remind everyone about these since the discussion only seems to include the GR usmash.
If the Sheik can play campy enough and simply prevent the Wario from gaining a lead, no doubt with the use of needles, this can lead to sloop approaches from Wario. Grabbing Wario is very difficult. Incredibly difficult. It is still very possible, and the threat is large.
I will agree the MU being in Wario's favor, and ever so slightly at that. No more than 55-45 ever.
Under 40% there's the footstool combo, which leads to a regrab.
After that there's the grab release pivot grab. Then in the end there's the GR up smash tipper, which isn't even a DACUS, and thus full proof (yea I said it <3).
I just wanted to remind everyone about these since the discussion only seems to include the GR usmash.
If the Sheik can play campy enough and simply prevent the Wario from gaining a lead, no doubt with the use of needles, this can lead to sloop approaches from Wario. Grabbing Wario is very difficult. Incredibly difficult. It is still very possible, and the threat is large.
I will agree the MU being in Wario's favor, and ever so slightly at that. No more than 55-45 ever.
You lost to Wario on FD Light? Do you know that oh I dunno.......you can INFINITE Wario? Might be something to look into next time you play the matchup.
If you do regular Sheik stuff you will lose this matchup because it's a very difficult matchup to understand but once you realize how bad Sheik ***** Wario off of one grab........you see things a little differently.
Also try using the chain if you ever get a lead.
If you do regular Sheik stuff you will lose this matchup because it's a very difficult matchup to understand but once you realize how bad Sheik ***** Wario off of one grab........you see things a little differently.
Also try using the chain if you ever get a lead.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Yea. I can see Battlefield and Yoshi's even getting in the way of an infinite, but I mean if you were to count out those, Sheik vs Wario on FD is EASILY Sheik favor. Regardless of all the shenanigans, Wario will get infinited > usmash tipper killed from a single grab.
Blue Rogue, Hunger, Malcolm, Futile
I'll just post up what I said to Tristan last night.
(2:12:27 AM) Ankoku: If you're standing and not shielding
(2:12:32 AM) Ankoku: Wario should not approach or attack
(2:12:54 AM) Ankoku: every time Wario tries to do something out of turn, he'll lose out on it
(2:13:25 AM) Ankoku: on the other hand, he has to make a lot fewer correct decisions than the Sheik player does to get the KO, and time is on his side thanks to his Waft.
(2:13:58 AM) Ankoku: Biggest thing Sheik has on Wario is the reach of her attacks
(2:14:28 AM) Ankoku: Because of that reach Wario can only ever afford to try to beat a Sheik who's above him in the air or below him in a shield.
(2:15:21 AM) Ankoku: The more you rely on shield in the matchup for anything other than obvious stuff like autocancel dairs before you could kick him away and charged Wafts, the fewer opportunities you'll have to actually do anything
(2:16:33 AM) Ankoku: so the game is luring Wario in and being better at landing the hit first; problem is, the better the Wario is, the less chance he'll have of ever actually trying to jump in unless you do something really obviously unsafe.
(2:17:38 AM) Ankoku: Also, if you shield anyway and just decide to play defensive games until he screws up on something punishable, he'll airgrab you with Bite, so there's extra emphasis on not turtling up.
(2:18:19 AM) Ankoku: I know it sounds really bad, but it's not as bad as it sounds.
(2:19:06 AM) Ankoku: There are very few Warios patient enough to literally do nothing, and while he is better at it than Meta Knight, he's also somewhat worse when he finally does something.
(2:20:10 AM) Ankoku: Also aerial needles are beast against him
(2:20:47 AM) Ankoku: A lot of people are by now used to you trying to punish landings with needles, so they don't see the fullhop/double jump needles coming
(2:21:00 AM) Ankoku: and it's a good way to tell them they can't just wait around forever
(2:12:27 AM) Ankoku: If you're standing and not shielding
(2:12:32 AM) Ankoku: Wario should not approach or attack
(2:12:54 AM) Ankoku: every time Wario tries to do something out of turn, he'll lose out on it
(2:13:25 AM) Ankoku: on the other hand, he has to make a lot fewer correct decisions than the Sheik player does to get the KO, and time is on his side thanks to his Waft.
(2:13:58 AM) Ankoku: Biggest thing Sheik has on Wario is the reach of her attacks
(2:14:28 AM) Ankoku: Because of that reach Wario can only ever afford to try to beat a Sheik who's above him in the air or below him in a shield.
(2:15:21 AM) Ankoku: The more you rely on shield in the matchup for anything other than obvious stuff like autocancel dairs before you could kick him away and charged Wafts, the fewer opportunities you'll have to actually do anything
(2:16:33 AM) Ankoku: so the game is luring Wario in and being better at landing the hit first; problem is, the better the Wario is, the less chance he'll have of ever actually trying to jump in unless you do something really obviously unsafe.
(2:17:38 AM) Ankoku: Also, if you shield anyway and just decide to play defensive games until he screws up on something punishable, he'll airgrab you with Bite, so there's extra emphasis on not turtling up.
(2:18:19 AM) Ankoku: I know it sounds really bad, but it's not as bad as it sounds.
(2:19:06 AM) Ankoku: There are very few Warios patient enough to literally do nothing, and while he is better at it than Meta Knight, he's also somewhat worse when he finally does something.
(2:20:10 AM) Ankoku: Also aerial needles are beast against him
(2:20:47 AM) Ankoku: A lot of people are by now used to you trying to punish landings with needles, so they don't see the fullhop/double jump needles coming
(2:21:00 AM) Ankoku: and it's a good way to tell them they can't just wait around forever
iLight
Smash Lord
lol rathy, DMG got second at this tournament and not only that is considered at least second best wario in the country right below fiction... he asked not to be ranked on the texas PR
I will look into the infiinites etc., but i still say that against a top wario player as sheik you cannot count on getting more than 2 grabs realistically
I will look into the infiinites etc., but i still say that against a top wario player as sheik you cannot count on getting more than 2 grabs realistically
-dMT-
Smash Lord
You can do a lot with 2 grabs...
I was just kidding, DMG's my fav wario. =P But he's still clearly a random.
Futile- Good. He's not nearly at that top level yet, but he's getting there.
Dude I am garbage.
Fiction quit. Even then, he was noted for beating M2K, and hell I beat him AND M2K in a 2v1 in teams so GET *****! lol
I think Bassem with a bit more matchup experience will be first or second best Wario guaranteed. I mean he's practically top 3 guaranteed, but with just a touch more, he could solidify himself in that position even as time passes.
Don't even ask me how I got into the Backroom. I had to do sexual favors for people that I will regret forever.
Bassem and I split the Oklahoma tournament. I was on the winner's side of Grand Finals, he came back from Losers after I played him and was about to Duke it out with me again on the main TV when we were told we didn't have the time to do the set. So we decided to kinda goof off, but in a serious manner.
First match, Falcon Dittos. I ***** HIM. Second Match, Ganondorf Dittos. On Wario Ware. I got Invincibility like 4-5 times in a row and still lost. Garbage. Third match, Random character ditto. He got Dedede, I got Pika. Corneria. I lost. Then, we had absolutely no time at all left, so we decided to flip a coin to see who won. Before that however, we played a best 2/3 Rock Paper Scissors to see who would call the coin flip. I won the Rock Paper Scissors, so we go to flip the coin. I call tails, it lands SIDEWAYS next to a chair leg and we have to reflip it. I switch it up, call heads, it lands tails.
And that my friends, is the most epic grand finals set in the history of Brawl EVER.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
How does one gain qualification for the Backroom? I mean, what are the standards? Clearly it's not a Top Placing Player's Club
-dMT-
Smash Lord
I suppose I'm closest by the TO angle at this point.
tournament operator
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Organizer maybe? lol
Obliterator
iLight
Smash Lord
its actually TOg *(the g is silent)
Tournament's Omnipotent god
Tournament's Omnipotent god
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Technically nothing but if he get's behind you I bet it would be hard to stop side B constantly
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Doesn't matter, it would knock you out of your camp and I doubt he would give you enough time to set up again.
or... you could tilt lock him and win.
when ever I accidentally pull out the chain I get like 20 damage, lol.
fox can probablly jump in and shine or nair out after he is hit or air dodge behind you and jab or utilt. I think chain is getting too much credit honestly. it don't permantly stun people especially if they are in the air.
fox can probablly jump in and shine or nair out after he is hit or air dodge behind you and jab or utilt. I think chain is getting too much credit honestly. it don't permantly stun people especially if they are in the air.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
That's why you have to use the jump into chain AND they need to be around roughly 50%
sure wish I had some... *coughvideoscough*
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Cause lasers wont kill u.......
But u guys are right chain is getting over rated imo. Its good and a great damage racker especially used to guard the ledge but its not a great idea to camp anyone its just a high rish low reqard situation imo.
I played DLA one of the better ganons in the country i think. I pulled out the chain and he got me on the second try at wizard kick. Its just too hard to react to their moves fast enough. I still won granted and it was also friendlies but the chain didnt really help. Ftilt and needles > gaon
needles < everyone.
EDIT:
ON REVERSE DAY!
EDIT:
ON REVERSE DAY!
Tristan_win
Not dead.
You know what's fun, debate.
What do you guys think is better to do against meta knight, a throw or a grab release into dash attack?
Damage info
Fthrow 7%
Btrhow 7%
Dthrow 6%
Uthrow 5%
Dash attack 7%
What do you guys think is better to do against meta knight, a throw or a grab release into dash attack?
Damage info
Fthrow 7%
Btrhow 7%
Dthrow 6%
Uthrow 5%
Dash attack 7%