Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[Thunda-Moo]

Thanks! Timely, informative answers... I wish there were more forums like this.

Low tiered characters FTW!

 

[Rhyme]

I feel you're trying way too hard to make Brawl technical. >.>

 

[NO-IDea]

Because Brawl requires tech skill? Sorry?

(Not as much as Melee, but you still need to practice to stay good. Anyone who argues with me on this one, I'll laugh at your face when I give my example to prove my point.)

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Hello everybody. I am visiting and just wanted to ask a quick question. Do you guys have a video critique thread? I see the video thread but it serris doesn't want to post my crewmate's vids up. Is there an alternative way? Just wanted some other peoples input if they have time.

Thanks in advance ^_^.

 

[NO-IDea]

You can post the videos here, and ask the question: "How can this Samus get better?" lolz

Or, you're more than welcome to create a separate thread to ask for critique. People have done it before, and it'll eventually die off once your critique is received.

I don't think the Samus boards will be coming around to making a critique thread anytime soon.

 

[Mr9]

why not make a critique thread?
is there simply not enough players to make our own thread?

 

[Rhyme]

There's really no reason in a community of such a small size. Make a critique thread if you want, but don't be surprised if the responses you get are limited. You're likely to get an equal amount of feedback anywhere that you put them up provided there is a Samus on the screen.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

okay then, thanks.

Critique is nice. Good comments or things that you preferably enjoyed (good or just plain funny) also are REALLY nice too ^_^. You don't have to critique self-destructs (cuz they're pretty self explanatory for us... lol). ^_^. Our crewmate, Werk, is newer (compared to me and my bro-- co-founders of our crew) to the professional metagame, and is still trying to improve everyday.

So here they are... organized by older (but within the past 1 month) to most recent from top to bottom (sort of):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39sWgyPrEhA - vs. RoB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UezsGiT_mSA - Electricty hax?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsJNRkXY4UM - vs. Toon Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6UOABEcck8 - Full set vs. pikachu (me) 1of5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oeCmsEvEP4 - Full set vs. pikachu (me) 2of5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buk0fMXEHsU - Full set vs. pikachu (me) 3of5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmhDx1rPGWI - Full set vs. pikachu (me) 4of5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtO0icqwy-8 - Full set vs. pikachu (me) 5of5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpBvbvmTrGI - vs. IC's that can't nail the infinite 100% of the time yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDwlYkBIpgQ - vs. Captain Falcon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meKGSy0E5f8 - vs. Pikachu (me)


*What are your thoughts/suggested inprovements on shenanigans like...*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4mzhVUtM78 - Last 10 seconds of vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svlk9gl-gPU - Could he have done more spikes? lol ^_^

*just for lols*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dczlaNoVxTg - This is what is left of my sanity after facing/training my crewmate, Werk for 4+ hours straight with nothing but pika vs samus O_O.

Thanks in advance you guys. Sorry for the long list.... At the very least, its something to watch if any of you don't have anything else to do ^_^.

 

[Rhyme]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmhDx1rPGWI - Full set vs. pikachu (me) 4of5

I have somewhat limited Pikachu experience (a couple of matches vs Hat and Anther and that's it), but I'll share my thoughts anyway.

It can be hard to work around Pikachu's lingering hitboxes. The more precise your spacing is, the easier it gets. Whiffing attacks isn't such a big deal in this MU assuming you're playing your zones correctly. Against characters who are quick on their feet (such as Pika), I find it helpful to remain grounded as often as it is practical. This is going to mean plenty of jabs, Ftilts, and UCS. In general, those are the three attacks that I would use to anticipate Pika's Quick Attack as well (assuming that I decided not to shield). Thunder jolt spam is easy enough to deal with while you're on the stage because Samus' Zair cancels it and can still hit Pika.

If I get the chance to watch more of your crewmate's matches then I'll give you a more specific answer. Right now, all I can say is general stuff. =/

 

[NO-IDea]

Reserved for comments.

Gotta do homework. And got an exam tomorrow. ****.

 

[saviorslegacy]

saviorslegacy (9:42:37 PM): Samus's down B is very very unique
saviorslegacy (9:42:57 PM): it has it's OWN momentum
saviorslegacy (9:43:06 PM): unlike any other move in the game
saviorslegacy (9:43:19 PM): which is very interesting
saviorslegacy (9:43:50 PM): because that means you can do something which I call "momentum math" (I suck at naming thing BTW)
saviorslegacy (9:44:21 PM): I have studied and know how every sliding tech/momentum cancel tech works in all 3 games
saviorslegacy (9:44:45 PM): small pivot= a dash cancel
saviorslegacy (9:44:56 PM): dash dance= a bunch of small pivots
Xyro77 (9:45:08 PM): post this stuff
saviorslegacy (9:45:34 PM): Craqwalking= momentum gain from a landing and a pivot into a slide
saviorslegacy (9:46:16 PM): Samus's Melee Boost= a momentum gain after so many frames while you still have your old momentum which results in a strange glitch
saviorslegacy (9:46:41 PM): IDK why you have that much momentum... you just do
saviorslegacy (9:47:42 PM): also... every attack has FORWARD momentum. Samus's Bomb has both back and forward momentum. Basically it is a strange coin flip. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it

So I did.

BTW, what I called momentum math is were you add momentum at certain points either before or after a certain action to multiply your momentum.

 

[NO-IDea]

Soooo... you found a way to make bombs good? Yes or no?

If maybe, then tell us your theory and we'll put it to practice.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Soooo... you found a way to make bombs good? Yes or no?

If maybe, then tell us your theory and we'll put it to practice.

"Have I found something?"
A: no

"Is there possibly something there?"
A: Heck yeah, the mechanics seem to support a possible sliding technique like maybe perform a slide out of a Bomb.

My theory is that at some point after the bomb has been dropped you do a slide left or right.

 

[IsmaR]

Soooo... you found a way to make bombs good? Yes or no?

Son...I am disappoint

But I'm intrigued by what you're getting at savior. I doubt that anything will be discovered soon, though. With enough work, hopefully, something can/will be found.

 

[Cherry64]

sounds similar to what xyro and Ismar have done, that sliding s*** out of a bomb

 

[saviorslegacy]

sounds similar to what xyro and Ismar have done, that sliding s*** out of a bomb

I think I figured out why that happens.

You see, in the morph ball it is much like walking. However unlike walking you have a constant flow of momentum (walking only has momentum when used).
When you dash/walk you increase the momentum after you come out of the Ball. However, I am curious if the ball actually multiply's momentum.
If that is true then it would work like this:

Dash when you come out of the ball and the game will still read that you are in it and mulyiply your dash momentum. Thus resulting in an unearthly (or gamely <,<) slide.


BTW, if you get hit by a bomb it has the same effect as if you had just dropped it.

 

[Mr9]

im hungry for some pain.

 

[Xyro77]

"Have I found something?"
A: no

"Is there possibly something there?"
A: Heck yeah, the mechanics seem to support a possible sliding technique like maybe perform a slide out of a Bomb.

My theory is that at some point after the bomb has been dropped you do a slide left or right.

sounds similar to what xyro and Ismar have done, that sliding s*** out of a bomb

****, i love being the smartest human on earth.

 

[NO-IDea]

lol, I'll believe it when I see it. As of now, it's a theory that can't be put into practice by anyone.

 

[Rhyme]

Soooo... you found a way to make bombs good?

Bombs are already good. A boost slide would be icing on the cake.

 

[NO-IDea]

Bombs are already good. A boost slide would be icing on the cake.

Sigh... sooooo ignorant.

Good and situational are two different things. What uses does it have other than reducing hurtbox against certain moves and recovery, which in the recovery sense it's okay but not amazing?

Rhetorical question, I already know the answer. Don't feel like having an argument right now, lol. Maybe later, or over AIM. More work to do.

EDIT: Sorry if I'm sounding rude, but lately I've been getting tired of this plateau I've been having, and meanwhile a bunch of people of my region are telling me that my growth is stunted because of my character.

We need to stop looking for techs altogether and start discussing not just MUs, but certain moves in depth. Frame data + theorycraft and pre-made scenarios are going to evolve Samus's metagame. Not looking for an easy out. It's more than just spam and mind games. We need to start controlling our matches altogether. Samus can do it.

What really got me to come to this conclusion was playing Neo. He's incredibly smart and works hard as well. And the rewards are blatantly obvious. Against nearly every player, once they hit the ledge, Neo already knows all the scenarios and can limit almost all options and deal 30+ damage safely. I can't tell you how many times he's pivot grabbed me, or landed an out of no where u-smash, where it looks random but it's not. And it's not a read either, it's him forcing me into that situation.

I've got a huge list of what to discuss, and I think I know where to discuss it...

 

[saviorslegacy]

We need to stop looking for techs altogether and start discussing not just MUs, but certain moves in depth. Frame data + theorycraft and pre-made scenarios are going to evolve Samus's metagame. Not looking for an easy out. I've got a huge list of what to discuss, and I think I know where to discuss it...

Very well said, very well said.
I still search for stuff with Sheik, but I am also doing this. It is called Sheiks Diary.

Also, I'm pretty much the only one writing it. What I am trying to say is that you don't need help except from maybe 1 or 2 people that you can run stuff to them and they'll give you their opinion.
That's it.


I like Samus because I think she has potential.
IMO, besides d3 her only big problem is killing.
Sheik has this saaaaame problem. We combat it with USmash tipper, but that is not easy. So we have searched for ways to get the tipper hit, they include:
putting people on platforms (my favorite way is Vanish since you can Vanish catch them and punish ANYTHING they do)
Grab Release DACUS
Punishing short hops/landings with DACUS
f-tilt> USmash

Nair over the ledge is also a good kill option for Sheik.


However, you all are looking at this the wrong way.
It not a fact of when you kill, it's how fast you can rack up damage.
Look at Ganon, he has like a TON of kill options (Dair, USmash, Wizkick, Worlock Punch, d-tilt, u-tilt, Uair, Fair and f-tilt)
You DON'T need kill options. You need damage options, in which she has.

Now an effective way to do damage is to make a wall. Find how to make a perfect wall and how to counter anyone who dares to enter.
^^^^^ that is where you meta game will advance.

Also try and make a wall on people who are trying to recover. This also opens up the chance for a spike.
Try Zairing any attempt to get onto the stage from the ledge AND grabbing them if you can. Punish any DI trying to keep them away from the edge.

Planking is also a wall.


That is my opinion.

 

[NO-IDea]

you don't need help except from maybe 1 or 2 people that you can run stuff to them and they'll give you their opinion.
That's it.

I'm doing exactly that. It's funny that I'm finding more help from other players than Samus mains.

Now an effective way to do damage is to make a wall. Find how to make a perfect wall and how to counter anyone who dares to enter.
^^^^^ that is where you meta game will advance.

Well said. That's not all Samus needs though.

As for your Sheik diary, run stuff by me some time. I play a sick Sheik, and never have problems with killing or damage as much as I do in certain MUs.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Well said. That's not all Samus needs though.

As for your Sheik diary, run stuff by me some time. I play a sick Sheik, and never have problems with killing or damage as much as I do in certain MUs.

True, but she has options, which are a need.
Just find the best option for each situation.

I just realized how poorly worded my last sentence of that quote was. Wow... English fail....


Oh boy......
Well for one I've been coming up with options to exploit weakness's. I've also been trying to learn how to force actions and abuse our shield.

 

[Xyro77]

With samus, its pretty easy to force damage on the foe. What we need is SAFE ways to land killing moves.

 

[IsmaR]

Sigh... sooooo ignorant.

Irony~

I've been through that, NOID. I can't say much other than it sucks, but don't let what others say get to you.


Now, for this, as far as I see it, it's not just one thing or solution that needs to be found. The most important seems to be what Xyro said, a reliable way to land kill moves. Samus can damage, recover, and make walls. Be like how NOID described Neo, incredibly smart, work hard, rinse, repeat.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Now, for this, as far as I see it, it's not just one thing or solution that needs to be found. The most important seems to be what Xyro said, a reliable way to land kill moves. Samus can damage, recover, and make walls. Be like how NOID described Neo, incredibly smart, work hard, rinse, repeat.

Neo= cool guy who try's to steal my stuff.....

 

[Xyro77]

incredibly smart, work hard, rinse, repeat.

I do this(many of you people do this) and we still dont win. Its called samus. She can only go so high and brawl will only let her do so much.

IMO, certain chars have hit thier "max level" and will not advance anymore. Samus is getting close.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I do this(many of you people do this) and we still dont win. Its called samus. She can only go so high and brawl will only let her do so much.

IMO, certain chars have hit thier "max level" and will not advance anymore. Samus is getting close.

*looks at G&W

 

[IsmaR]

Xyro just tells people she's not that good so people won't know the truth, that way, he stays the best.

 

[Xyro77]

Well i know samus is one of the best when it comes to low tier and she MIGHT do good on some random mid or high tiers(like rob) but over all she is far from GOOD.

 

[theeboredone]

Personally, whenever I play Xyro, one thing I can know is that I don't have to worry about getting killed until I'm past 150%. And I'm not sure how good Samus' off stage game is, but I seem to make it back for the most part whenever I play Xyro.

*Ike Main.

 

[IsmaR]

Oh he's good.

 

[Xyro77]

Personally, whenever I play Xyro, one thing I can know is that I don't have to worry about getting killed until I'm past 150%. And I'm not sure how good Samus' off stage game is, but I seem to make it back for the most part whenever I play Xyro.

*Ike Main.

u come back to the stage cause u dont do dumb stuff like the other ikes do. Its just another thing that sets u apart from them.

 

[theeboredone]

Oh he's good.

I don't know if that was sarcasm or genuine...

And I will never know.

 

[Cherry64]

more of laughing at you sticking it to xyro.

but yes, he's good, we've played him online and he isn't as good online and he still wins. I think xyro has trouble gimping and edge guarding people. serously if you played gayer she'd be mid tier, that's as far she she's ever going to go though.

 

[Xyro77]

yea i STILL dont/cant do that tether gimp thing. me sad

 

[Cherry64]

I noticed
Try hanging by your grapple till you think they are about to use up B then push z once.

it'll take abit of practice with the timing for certain characters but it's pretty good to know

 

[Xyro77]

no thats not what im talkin about at all. you KNOW what im talkin about. the rapid tether to re-tether thingy samus can do 3 times.

 

[Cherry64]

Hahaha yeah, that'll come though, baby steps man. it's hard to do properly so that you don't get hit, try practicing against ike and the spacies (cpu's, after all, their up B will be the EXACT same move when a human does it, just different timing)

the controls are Back double z, back double z, then back double z again

you have to press back each time you want to re-tether

I personally prefer slightly tap back > Z >A