Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[NO-IDea]

Back double Z or Down double Z.

If you do down, you can choose to either double Z to re-tether, up+b to grab more invincibility frames, fall for the spike, or use your double jump since you've regained it from grabbing the ledge.

Do back if they're farther out to fall for spike/use double jump to do some fancy backwards n-air/f-air **** (it works surprisingly. Silly air dodge.) B-air doesn't work unless they're stupid. Because A) They'll air dodge or B)They'll DI and you've just sent them higher and lost the gimp. (if you do back, you can't up+b for more invincibility frames, but you're doing back because they're too far out anyway.)

Come on now, not that hard.

Actually, I think Samus can go mid-high tier. IMO at least. But she has certain extremely hard MUs that require the player to pick up a secondary.

No one's taken her that far... yet.

I'm going to claim a power ranking in my region eventually. I can feel it! lol, but seriously, I go even with most of them 9 and below. And MD/VA ain't some ****ty region where after 5, the players suck. We have a LOT of good players.

 

[saviorslegacy]

YES!
Sheik can do this way easier cuz we use SIDE B.

Anyways.... what moves are you using when you release yourself/does Samus have any dis-jointed hit box's?

 

[Xyro77]

YES!
Sheik can do this way easier cuz we use SIDE B.

Anyways.... what moves are you using when you release yourself/does Samus have any dis-jointed hit box's?

ARGH! its just every time i try to do it fast(thats the best way) i end up SDing. I cant understand how every samus main BUT me can do it. Its kinda annoying.

Disjointed hit boxes? IMO samus is ont of the few that DOESNT have any moves that are disjointed. The only move that MIGHT be disjointed is jab. I hit people who are totally BEHIND me with my jab. Fair MIGHT also be disjointed. But thats it.

 

[NO-IDea]

How is Sheik's easier than Samus'? I use both... you don't need to use a direction to re-tether as Samus. You only need to put a directional input afterwards. Sheik, it's back and forth, back and forth.

Xyro... just lol. If you can't get it by November, Rhyme and I will show you.

 

[saviorslegacy]

How is Sheik's easier than Samus'? I use both... you don't need to use a direction to re-tether as Samus. You only need to put a directional input afterwards. Sheik, it's back and forth, back and forth.

Xyro... just lol. If you can't get it by November, Rhyme and I will show you.

Uhh.. I dunno.
I've messed around with Sheik so much that I am confortable with her everywhere doing everything BUT DACUS. I am like one of the few Sheiks that think DACUS is good and can't use it.

On that mention of Sheik.. reverse Needle from a ledge drop> re-tether is awesome.


So I've been thinking about kill set ups. Here is what I came up with:

AC Fair> tilted up FSmash seems legit

Zair> Power Beam seems iffy...

Missile> Power Beam seems legit (now all we need is for people to stop power shielding)

DASC> Dair

Nair> Dair (nonlegit Ken Combo?)

tripping a foe> Power Beam (what trips, where is the trip box and what percents does it work at?)

Using power Beam over the ledge?

Nair WOP?


Those are some of my idea's.

 

[Xyro77]

nair has next to no knockback so its a waste unless the foe is like over 110%

 

[Cherry64]

Uhh.. I dunno.
I've messed around with Sheik so much that I am confortable with her everywhere doing everything BUT DACUS. I am like one of the few Sheiks that think DACUS is good and can't use it.

On that mention of Sheik.. reverse Needle from a ledge drop> re-tether is awesome.


So I've been thinking about kill set ups. Here is what I came up with:

AC Fair> tilted up FSmash seems legit
This will also work with Dtilt, just gotta FF the Fair
Zair> Power Beam seems iffy...
never works anymore, everybody who gets hit with Z air and the samus has a fully charged shot shields it, because they know what's coming. Works Waaaay better with homing missile spam then when you think 1's going to hit, fire your CS, missile for hit stun CS for killage
Missile> Power Beam seems legit (now all we need is for people to stop power shielding)
what is a power beam :S
DASC> Dair
what's DASC? if you mean DAC, samus' up smash would NEVER lead to a d air, nor can we do that either
Nair> Dair (nonlegit Ken Combo?)
errr I've tried this many times, and it rarely works, all they have to do is instead of using their second jump, use their up B and they will almost never get spiked
tripping a foe> Power Beam (what trips, where is the trip box and what percents does it work at?)
Jab trips but only at stupid percents, BTW jab to standing grab works so much it's not even funny.
Using power Beam over the ledge?
hard to hit with, it was so much easier to snipe peeps off ledge in melee (once again, what is power beam?)
Nair WOP?
What is this? your sheik technical stuff is beyond me

Those are some of my idea's.

first useful post and it comes from a sheik main.

things you forgot

U air > CS

Jab > CS ( works as a mind-game, half the time they will shield it)

Weak Nair > Usmash (ONLY works on chars the size of the spacies and taller. DON'T DO THIS AGAINST DEDEDE)

Weak Nair > Charge shot (DON'T DO AGAINST SPACIES)

I have so many but most of her kill set ups are situational, actually F that last statement, all of them are situational, you can't just spam F smashes, because those won't kill until 150%'s and their range is abysmal

NOID want to start a compilation of known kill moves in the Samus BR??
make a post in there and we can all add to it by PM'ing you


Can someone PLEASE find a true combo with Usmash, I ain't giving up on this xyro, you say it's useless, I say fully refreshed it does 24 damage with all hits, which ISN'T hard to land. I'm thinking Dash attack > Usmash, however DA can be sheild grabbed, hence why we need something, maybe a homing missle before dash attack.

this'd have to be done at low percents, if we can get a true combo on at least half the cast ( this'll prolly exclude the small chars) then we can start a match with a 35-38% lead, like a chain grab but not as bad,

Discuss?

 

[LanceStern]

I use nair when recovering from the ledge sometimes.

You can also nair -> smash/tilt at low percentages, you just have to autocancel it.
I also use nair to space. Just nair then when you hit the ground short hop and nair immediately. Then nair then repeat.

Can someone PLEASE find a true combo with Usmash, I ain't giving up on this xyro, you say it's useless, I say fully refreshed it does 24 damage with all hits, which ISN'T hard to land. I'm thinking Dash attack > Usmash, however DA can be sheild grabbed, hence why we need something, maybe a homing missle before dash attack.

1. Hang on the ledge
2. Ledge hop -> Fair so all hits hit the opponent but you land when the last fire occurs
3. Buffer hyphen smash

or you can try to replace 3 with a jump-cancelled upsmash.

Works about 90% of the time. All hits. Been using it for a while haha

 

[NO-IDea]

Unsweetspotted z-air -> Hyphen Smash.

 

[saviorslegacy]

AC Fair> tilted up FSmash seems legit
This will also work with Dtilt, just gotta FF the Fair
I meant FF (AC= Auto Cancel)

Zair> Power Beam seems iffy...
never works anymore, everybody who gets hit with Z air and the samus has a fully charged shot shields it, because they know what's coming. Works Waaaay better with homing missile spam then when you think 1's going to hit, fire your CS, missile for hit stun CS for killage
****.... (works in B+ though)

Missile> Power Beam seems legit (now all we need is for people to stop power shielding)
what is a power beam :S
I've always called Charge Shot *Power Beam*

DASC> Dair
what's DASC? if you mean DAC, samus' up smash would NEVER lead to a d air, nor can we do that either
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S54mPByImY0 <this
Samus's Dair is guaranteed from this.

Nair> Dair (nonlegit Ken Combo?)
errr I've tried this many times, and it rarely works, all they have to do is instead of using their second jump, use their up B and they will almost never get spiked
Owell...

tripping a foe> Power Beam (what trips, where is the trip box and what percents does it work at?)
Jab trips but only at stupid percents, BTW jab to standing grab works so much it's not even funny.
I'm away from my Wii but what about an angled down f-tilt?

Using power Beam over the ledge?
hard to hit with, it was so much easier to snipe peeps off ledge in melee (once again, what is power beam?)
I guess

Nair WOP?
What is this? your sheik technical stuff is beyond me
*Jigglypuff
Wall Of Pain

first useful post and it comes from a sheik main.
Meh, a lot of others are contributing.

things you forgot

U air > CS
legit?

Jab > CS ( works as a mind-game, half the time they will shield it)

Weak Nair > Usmash (ONLY works on chars the size of the spacies and taller. DON'T DO THIS AGAINST DEDEDE)
When does USmash kill?

Weak Nair > Charge shot (DON'T DO AGAINST SPACIES)
legit?

I have so many but most of her kill set ups are situational, actually F that last statement, all of them are situational, you can't just spam F smashes, because those won't kill until 150%'s and their range is abysmal

NOID want to start a compilation of known kill moves in the Samus BR??
make a post in there and we can all add to it by PM'ing you


Can someone PLEASE find a true combo with Usmash, I ain't giving up on this xyro, you say it's useless, I say fully refreshed it does 24 damage with all hits, which ISN'T hard to land. I'm thinking Dash attack > Usmash, however DA can be sheild grabbed, hence why we need something, maybe a homing missle before dash attack.

this'd have to be done at low percents, if we can get a true combo on at least half the cast ( this'll prolly exclude the small chars) then we can start a match with a 35-38% lead, like a chain grab but not as bad,

Discuss?

Zair> Dash Attack> JCUS (lol, looks like Jesus) JCUS= Jump Canceled Up Smash

I just realized that we are forgetting about some attacks.
Can the ledge wake/wake up attack combo into CS?


I used to be big into footstools, I later gave them up but I think I might have found it new life:
Uair/Fair (they're the only one's that work at KO percents I believe)> footstool> tech chase with CS

You are unable to combo last time I checked, but heck, a tech chase is all you need.
I do it with Sheik:
Vanish> Vanish catch onto a platform> tech chase with tipper USmash
The only difference is that I need to be at BF and Vanish is hard to hit with. That said, I've done it to Neo. That right there stands out by itself.

Now that I finished typing that I am very excited. Tech chasing with a projectile is legit. This needs looked into!

 

[LanceStern]

Samus jumps too high off of the footstool and can't fast fall fast enough.

But nair WOP, nair -> CS and uair to CS are legit with some situations

 

[IsmaR]

Crappy Internet is crappy/double post

 

[IsmaR]

I've been preaching that N-air is **** forever. A WOP isn't really possible methinks, but it's sexy to use offstage.

@Cherry - Regarding the "They always know when it's Fully Charged" thing, lern2mindgamez. I always try to stop the charge right before it finishes, save it for later, or save it for when I read their rolls/dodges/shields. <3 Charge Shot

 

[Cherry64]

it'll be easier to tech chase with a projectile, that is actually a good idea. Best thing I've heard for a while actually. Erm I'll respond to your post when I get back home

at gf's house without wii haha

Izzy's right about Nair, it can't be used as wall of pain, and he can also go die

 

[saviorslegacy]

at gf's house without wii haha

Ah **** that's no good.
I have heard of unichs but that is ridiculous.

 

[IsmaR]

it'll be easier to tech chase with a projectile, that is actually a good idea. Best thing I've heard for a while actually.

I remember getting a mindgame kill once after impossibly reading an Ike's(ilovekimchiXD, during my SWF Low Tier tourney match actually) roll which I pulled off by stupid luck or accident, but it looked sooooooooo hawt. I think I SH'd to the left(he was rolling left, thought he'd end up on my right side) and did a reverse Fully Charged Charge Shot as I landed.

Izzy's right about Nair, it can't be used as wall of pain, and he can also go die

;-;

For further record, N-air is good as a combobreaker, quick but weak punishment, set-up move, gimping move, and approach in some cases. The knockback sucks for killing anymore (anywhere not near the ledge at least), but it's still very useful.

 

[Skadorski]

Is this a known tactic?
If you do wall hop in the corner of FD, you can bounce off it and fire a super missle, and it stays REALLY low to the ground.
I'm pretty sure you can do this if you fall from hanging on the edge.
It looks like this:

Yellow is the direction Samus goes (I didn't have room to put in a arrow but Samus goes upwards off the edge)
Green is the super missle.

 

[IsmaR]

That is pretty much common knowledge. Useful in some cases(as well as B-air, Bomb, or D-air sometimes), but it's pretty predictable.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

That is pretty much common knowledge. Useful in some cases(as well as B-air, Bomb, or D-air sometimes), but it's pretty predictable.

If you use it at maximum 2 times a match, it isn't. I use it, too. This trick is okay, but not more.

Question to Metaknights Tornado: Is there really NOTHING to do (I know there exist some attack from Samus, that can punish it, but it needs an incredible good timing -.-)?

 

[Xyro77]

If you use it at maximum 2 times a match, it isn't. I use it, too. This trick is okay, but not more.

Question to Metaknights Tornado: Is there really NOTHING to do (I know there exist some attack from Samus, that can punish it, but it needs an incredible good timing -.-)?

If you shoot a medium to full charge shot at metas tornado, you will stop it.
If you use U-tilt as the tornado begins, you will stop it
If you zair the tip top of the tornado, you will stop

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

If you shoot a medium to full charge shot at metas tornado, you will stop it.
If you use U-tilt as the tornado begins, you will stop it
If you zair the tip top of the tornado, you will stop

The Zair-thing sounds pretty good, cause the Zair is long and fast and maybe it can stop good tornadospammers, too. Well, I hope.

Thanks, Xyro


A morphbomb can stop it, too, maybe useful on the plattforms of battlefield.

 

[Crystanium]

If you shoot a medium to full charge shot at metas tornado, you will stop it.
If you use U-tilt as the tornado begins, you will stop it
If you zair the tip top of the tornado, you will stop

That's because the Mach Tornado builds up its priority. You can stop it with z-air or a Super Missile when Meta Knight starts it. It doesn't matter where, only when.

 

[IsmaR]

N-air and U-air(last hit I think) can occasionally beat it out. Nearly-Fully Charged Charge Shots are the most reliable way, though. Bombs are good, but they can drag you either above or to far to the side of them.

 

[LanceStern]

I'm thinking of making a research topic like other character boards (think Peach, Marth) because it gets people unified and projects done.

Questions that would go on there, but I'm asking here:

1. What's the best move for Samus to use to KO Pikmin thrown/attached to her? I'm finding Utilt to be ridiculously useful.

2. Does attacking the Pikmin to get them off of you stale your moves?

 

[Blackrider213]

Question: Is there a reason why, when you are recovering with zair, the zair will spontaneously retract from the edge as soon as it connects? Samus is within perfect range of zairing the ledge, but sometimes when I try to recover with the zair, it will connect but then retract for some reason. And I haven't surpassed the 3 zair grabbing ledge limit. Sometimes when this happens to me, I lose forward momentum I think (assuming I'm moving torward the ledge and using the zair). I'm assuming that my opponent is not ledge hogging.

I also think the opponent can force the zair to retract by doing an instant ledgehog perhaps like a frame or 2 the zair reaches the edge.

 

[Rhyme]

That's because the Mach Tornado builds up its priority. You can stop it with z-air or a Super Missile when Meta Knight starts it. It doesn't matter where, only when.

You can stop it at any point in the tornado with a well-placed Zair.

Question: Is there a reason why, when you are recovering with zair, the zair will spontaneously retract from the edge as soon as it connects?

I also think the opponent can force the zair to retract by doing an instant ledgehog perhaps like a frame or 2 the zair reaches the edge.

Kind of. Tethers cannot grab a ledge that is currently occupied by a hurtbox.

 

[Xyro77]

I'm thinking of making a research topic like other character boards (think Peach, Marth) because it gets people unified and projects done.

Questions that would go on there, but I'm asking here:

1. What's the best move for Samus to use to KO Pikmin thrown/attached to her? I'm finding Utilt to be ridiculously useful.

2. Does attacking the Pikmin to get them off of you stale your moves?

i use nair to kill them.

it weakens nair(who cares, nair sucks) but refreshes all the other moves.
Nair means u are in the air which means u are not a sitting target(like your example of U-tilt)

 

[LanceStern]

Can nair KO them with one blow? I like that idea.

In general I have a huge problem with the olimar matchup. They outspam me and when I try to attack, his stupid disjointed hitboxes outprioritize and outrange me. Tips?

 

[NO-IDea]

lol, I have serious issues with the MU as well. I've gained extensive knowledge over it however, (I still find it 65:35) from repetitive friendlies, and there aren't too many smart Olimar players out there. (Not saying you have to be smart to do a 40% combo, but you can't win at high levels without being smart)

N-air can KO, but more than often just knocks them off. It takes certain percentages to kill each Pikmin:
R/Y: 9%
B:14%
P:15%
W:4%

In other words, once you've staled just once N-air, it will only kill White Pikmin (which do the most damage when latched, so in that regard it's still good.)

I've found u-tilt the best way in removing pikmin at long distances.

Tips:

1) This is my personal opinion, you may find different results, but missiles suck in this MU. Pikmin spam just removes that tactic whole heartedly. Stick to z-air for approaching.

2) You have to approach, there's no other option. Olimar can outcamp Samus in every way, shape and form. Use z-air to make an opening, and if you do manage to connect a z-air on Olimar whilst he's in the air throwing Pikmin, there's usually enough frames to pull in a dash attack (buffer it, use the C-stick) and the occasional grab. I wouldn't result to grabs in the MU as an approach option however though. The risk/reward is not worth it IMO. Low percentages means you're going to get combo'ed into med percentages, high percentages means you're going to get killed. If you really want to resort to grab as a mix-up approach option, use it in the 40-80 range... but then it can be predicted. Knwoing your opponent's percentages makes their gameplay predictable...

3) Speaking of predictable, know Olimar's line-up at all times. Olimar mains have to do it, you better get on it as well. Low percentages, it won't matter what Olimar uses as a grab. But higher percentages, you HAVE to know when the blue pikmin is up or second in line. It means Olimar is going to attempt to land a grab. Purple pikmin always used for throwing or reserved for kill options. Red and yellows are often than not used for smashes and u-airs (major disjointed htiboxes on the yellow pikmin here.) White's are always used for throwing. Get it, got it? Done.

4) Now that you know that Olimar players are awfully predictable, what other options can Samus use? Since technically, you never really want to be retreating from Olimar (always pressure him, only turn back to reset spacing, etc.) Samus also has d-air (neat thing is to auto-RAR it. Samus has amazing momentum using this, and since d-air's hitboxes actually start behind her, it leaves you with two good options. One, if you land in front of Olimar, the d-air hits earlier than usual, the shield stun giving ample time to DI away before landing. Two, if you land above or behind Olimar, the usual hitboxes of d-air are cheived, but you are safer because of Olimar's fewer OoS options behind him.) U-air I try not to use too much because of pivot grabs and u-smashes. N-air is a great surprise follow-up from z-air once you start reading patterns. F-air is alright, but because of Olimar's height, Olimar's f-air reaches you always before Samus's does. Tiem and time again, f-air fails because of where the starting hitboxes are (upper right/left.) it should only be used on aerial opponents or tall ones.

5) Try to avoid vertical knockback moves. Specifically d-tilt and screw attack. Avoid d-tilt because while it's decent damage (14%) and comes out in six frames, it's also not to hard to punish for an Olimar (shield grab) and nullifies any horizontal advantage you try to gain from z-airing. Remember, you'r trying to pressure him off stage. Unless he gets to kill percentages. Then of course find a way to land the d-tilt. Screw attack in general is highly punishable, even on BF, and strays from the z-air strategy.



With all this said, you may still end up losing. But knowing how Olimar plays and shaping Samus's moveset around it is the best way to go. I still lose sets to PS these days, but I still usually manage a match off him.

The grammar was horrible and I apologize. My thought process was also severely scattered while reading over this. School is a pain =/

 

[Blackrider213]

@Rhyme: I knew that tethers could not grab the ledge when a hurtbox is occupying the ledge. I just don't understand why that a tether will sometimes not grab the ledge when no hurtbox is occupying it, the three zair ledge grabbing limit hasn't been reached, and I'm in range of the ledge. For simplicity, there are three conditions for a tether to grab the ledge. 1: No hurtbox can be grabbing the ledge. 2: You are in range. 3: The tether grabbing limit hasn't reached beyond 3. So if all conditions are met, why will a tether or a zair sometimes not grab the ledge?

Edit: After thinking about this, this sounds similar to why sometimes characters don't grab the ledge when doing their Up B, which can lead to stuff such as Marth's double dolphin slash. Though I thought characters had to be in a certain range to Up B to make this weird failing ledge grab. In regards to tether characters, it seems like a random occurrance so far.

 

[IsmaR]

I'm thinking of making a research topic like other character boards (think Peach, Marth) because it gets people unified and projects done.

Questions that would go on there, but I'm asking here:

1. What's the best move for Samus to use to KO Pikmin thrown/attached to her? I'm finding Utilt to be ridiculously useful.

2. Does attacking the Pikmin to get them off of you stale your moves?

1. U-tilt ***** Olimar period. D-air/N-air are decent, and Screw Attack sends them flying high, but is only useful on stages with platforms if you don't want to get punished.

2. Yap I think.

Tips:

1) This is my personal opinion, you may find different results, but missiles suck in this MU. Pikmin spam just removes that tactic whole heartedly. Stick to z-air for approaching.

Personally, I think Missiles are a bit better. Z-air doesn't effect yellow/purple pikmen, which are two of the best ones IMO. Missiles also have a better chance of killing them(save for red obviously) or at least knocking 'em back.

2)

Skipping this one. Can't think of anything to say to make you think differently.

3) Speaking of predictable, know Olimar's line-up at all times. Olimar mains have to do it, you better get on it as well. Low percentages, it won't matter what Olimar uses as a grab. But higher percentages, you HAVE to know when the blue pikmin is up or second in line. It means Olimar is going to attempt to land a grab. Purple pikmin always used for throwing or reserved for kill options. Red and yellows are often than not used for smashes and u-airs (major disjointed htiboxes on the yellow pikmin here.) White's are always used for throwing. Get it, got it? Done.

Mostly agreed. Purple pikmen are good for grab kills(U/D-throws kill around 140ish%, I think), and as projectiles/edgeguarding, white ones do decent damage used for grabs, yellow/red are good for spiking/other aerials, and I find blue ones to be good for smashing.

4) Now that you know that Olimar players are awfully predictable

lol

what other options can Samus use? Since technically, you never really want to be retreating from Olimar (always pressure him, only turn back to reset spacing, etc.) Samus also has d-air (neat thing is to auto-RAR it. Samus has amazing momentum using this, and since d-air's hitboxes actually start behind her, it leaves you with two good options. One, if you land in front of Olimar, the d-air hits earlier than usual, the shield stun giving ample time to DI away before landing. Two, if you land above or behind Olimar, the usual hitboxes of d-air are cheived, but you are safer because of Olimar's fewer OoS options behind him.) U-air I try not to use too much because of pivot grabs and u-smashes. N-air is a great surprise follow-up from z-air once you start reading patterns. F-air is alright, but because of Olimar's height, Olimar's f-air reaches you always before Samus's does. Tiem and time again, f-air fails because of where the starting hitboxes are (upper right/left.) it should only be used on aerial opponents or tall ones.

Agreed with all of this.

5) Try to avoid vertical knockback moves. Specifically d-tilt and screw attack. Avoid d-tilt because while it's decent damage (14%) and comes out in six frames, it's also not to hard to punish for an Olimar (shield grab) and nullifies any horizontal advantage you try to gain from z-airing. Remember, you'r trying to pressure him off stage. Unless he gets to kill percentages. Then of course find a way to land the d-tilt. Screw attack in general is highly punishable, even on BF, and strays from the z-air strategy.

Both of those are pretty useful IMO. Screw Attack is sex on BF, and D-tilt throws them off. You should never try to use either without thinking, as in leaving yourself open for an immediate shield-grab or to be punished from falling.

The grammar was horrible and I apologize. My thought process was also severely scattered while reading over this. School is a pain =/

You are forgiven.

@Blackrider - Happens to me too, I think it has something to do with momentum.

 

[Rhyme]

In general I have a huge problem with the olimar matchup. They outspam me and when I try to attack, his stupid disjointed hitboxes outprioritize and outrange me. Tips?

If you haven't already, go over to the MU thread. I wrote up a decent entry on how Samus can beat Olimar's camping game. Also, keep in mind that it bears a certain similarity to Falco's camping game.

and if you do manage to connect a z-air on Olimar whilst he's in the air throwing Pikmin

Note that Olimar will not always jump before throwing pikmin.

For this MU in particular, I like to chain Zair->Zair. It continues the 'up and in front of Samus' theme and gives you some room to frame trap Olimar.

Low percentages, it won't matter what Olimar uses as a grab. But higher percentages, you HAVE to know when the blue pikmin is up or second in line. It means Olimar is going to attempt to land a grab.

Blues are also great for Dsmash/Fsmash, so watch your spacing. Whites do about twice the pummel damage of any other pikmin, so I don't know why any Olimar would use a white throw. =/ Also, Olimars love to try grab release mindgames with their ultra long grab range. If this happens, retreating SH->Fair is among your most reliable escape options.

Since technically, you never really want to be retreating from Olimar (always pressure him, only turn back to reset spacing, etc.)

Actually, you do want to retreat from Olimar on occasion. Olimar's approach options are not safe. Convincing Olimar to make a hasty approach is the difficult part.

Try to avoid vertical knockback moves.

O' contraire. Olimar is very limited when it comes to getting back to the ground safely. You want to use vertical knockback moves when possible because, when they land, they put you in an advantageous position (by putting Olimar in a bad position).

School is a pain =/

x.x My brain knows how your brain feels.

1: No hurtbox can be grabbing the ledge.

this sounds similar to why sometimes characters don't grab the ledge when doing their Up B, which can lead to stuff such as Marth's double dolphin slash.

"Occupying" is not the same as "grabbing". For example, Snake can occupy the ledge by crouching over it at the right time.

Characters like Marth, Mario, and G&W routinely miss their auto-sweetspot for a different reason. Either the necessary amount of time between the upB input and their intersection with the ledge hasn't been reached, or they are too close to the ledge horizontally.

The double upB, iirc, happens because the character was footstooled while upBing. Either that, or you are talking about the case where the character hits the edge, stops all momentum (without grabbing) and falls straight down...I don't know what causes that one.

 

[LanceStern]

That was a great read there NO IDea.

And I'm hearing two positives for Utilt and one negative for utilt. It's definitely good farther away. Maybe good close range.

I really liked the auto-RARed Dair idea too.

 

[Blackrider213]

So, If I get this right, I should be changing the term "occupying" to "grabbing" the ledge right?

The double Up B I was referring to was the one where the character hits the edge and has all the momentum stopped and so forth. This effect seems to happen to me while I zair the ledge, though the momentum part seems iffy to me. I sometimes stop all my momentum, but at other times I still retain momentum while still not grabbing the edge.

 

[NO-IDea]

At low percentages (0-20), any color pikmin throw is guaranteed a follow-up (referring to color, not type of throw). Either another throw/hyphen smash/u-air/f-air. Even white pikmin throws are guaranteed a follow-up.

EDIT: Earlier, when I mentioned

White's are always used for throwing.

I meant side+b. Not grab to throw.

It's one of those MUs where the character has this certified attack string at specific attack percentages, which you try to avoid (TL/Wolf b-air string, Pika's CG, Sheik's f-tilt lock, etc.)

And as for vertical hits, generally Olimar's don't have a big issue getting onto the ground as most people think. Any decent variation between air dodging and whistling is sufficient. As far as positioning goes, yes Olimar can do little to hurt you, but if you mess up a f-air/u-air when air chasing, the entire scenario takes a 180 with Olimar being able to juggle you. It's iffy

As a side note, I thought chaining z-air->z-air was something every Samus main did, regardless of the MU. xD

 

[IsmaR]

And as for vertical hits, generally Olimar's don't have a big issue getting onto the ground as most people think. Any decent variation between air dodging and whistling is sufficient.

Beg to differ. Quoting Praxis, "The opponent can air dodge at any time, but you also know they can air dodge at anytime." Really it boils down to whether you can predict what they'll do. 2 options won't save every Olimar every time.

As far as positioning goes, yes Olimar can do little to hurt you, but if you mess up a f-air/u-air when air chasing, the entire scenario takes a 180 with Olimar being able to juggle you. It's iffy

Don't mess up?
The way I see it(and have seen it today), Olimar's bad positions aren't as hard to get him into as people say. I tend to pick stages where he'll have more bad positions than he'd be more easily gimped(oddly enough, I CP Brinstar on most Olimars and never gimp any as much). Stages Olimar is good on, like Yoshi's Island, tend to be better because he can avoid us while still being able to attack, giving him more good positions.

As a side note, I thought chaining z-air->z-air was something every Spamus did, regardless of the MU. xD

Fix'd for great justice.

Rhyme, I'm curious. You mentioned that Olimar's camping game is similar to Falco's. I have trouble keeping up with any Falco, regardless of skill, due to me not being able to approach them well(TAC makes it look so easy .-.) and falling in to pretty much everything. I'm thinking that me not being able to get around their camping so well screws up my game overall. You wouldn't happen to have any advice, would you?

 

[Cherry64]

your side note can be debunked, I will occasionally chain z air to z air but not usually. I prefer chaining it to some thing that does more damage.


Izzy, get the timing down on Falco's lasers and pick a small stage I prefer BF for this, and if they are camping lasers on a side, SH air dodge > z air is really your only option buddy. everythign else is too slow or won't hit him.

 

[IsmaR]

GGs/thnx Cherry. That's what I meant by "TAC makes it seem so easy." Guess I just need actual in-the-moment practice.

 

[bobson]

How do I use jab to do anything besides get shieldgrabbed? Everything I try to cancel into will get shielded (even jab2, what the **** is that **** how can you have a jab combo that can be ****ing shielded after the first hit?? **** you sakurai), and jab > grab only works here and there and leaves me bent over with my pants down when it doesn't. Random stuff like jab > retreating down-B doesn't really get me anywhere, either, although it is kinda fun.

 

[Crystanium]

You can stop it at any point in the tornado with a well-placed Zair.

D-air works, too. Strangely, yesterday when I was brawling with Jamnt0ast, I think it was, or maybe it was Cheese, I footstooled the Mach Tornado and jumped really high. Mach Tornado didn't stop, though.