Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[KillerJawz]

I havn't seen a single person who'd been able to SDI screw attack consistantly. It's heavily dependant on how Samus moves when she's attacking as well.

 

[Cherry64]

I played one offline a few weeks back. I used it all of three times and got punished by it. It was an Olimar so I think that because he was so small he got out easier?

I also took said olimar to final stock every time.

 

[KillerJawz]

Not sure, I don't play Olimars as Samus anymore so I wouldn't know.

 

[Cherry64]

I don't do too bad against them. I'd rather win though so neither do I.

these were seriouslies

 

[NO-IDea]

Hold control stick up. Mash c-stick up. You get out.

All this non-sense of going left and right is just bogus. Best case scenario you get spiked instead of safely avoiding the last hitbox. Nearly all characters of the cast can get out.

 

[ZeroL]

What NO-IDea said. If opponents would begin to SDI when they predict a screw attack they'll get out in no time.

 

[KillerJawz]

Hold control stick up. Mash c-stick up. You get out.

Not entirely correct. When it's a normal screw attack, this does work, however, when moving left and right, you have to mash the cstick in a slightly different direction.

 

[NO-IDea]

Actually, if the Samus is moving left or right, it makes it easier to get out before the last hitbox...

 

[KillerJawz]

Actually, if the Samus is moving left or right, it makes it easier to get out before the last hitbox...

That's more person specific tbh. I find I trap more people when I move to the left or right.

 

[IYM!]

hey guys i need help, i dont know how to fight agains a Wolf, he is faster, have better priority, and his F*****g laser, just defeat my Zair, ah and the reflector give me troubles with me CS, somebody can give me a council please?

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

Wolf is soooo much easier for me than say Falco. His lasers come out a bit slow and don't travel very fast and are relatively easy to avoid. Simply put, wolf will **** you in the air due to his aerials. Your best bet is reading and getting gimps. Wolf's recovery is predictable but don't underestimate his side-b, i have been screwed over too many times by that move. Save CS for when you KNOW it will hit, this is mostly offstage. Keep on constant missle pressure, even if he reflects them, because if he is reflecting he can't do anything else. In this sense, you should avoid using super missles because they are a lot more dangerous when reflected compared to missles

 

[KillerJawz]

Out of interest, having never played a decent Wolf before in my life. What parts of his side b spike you? There have been times where CPU Wolf has done a side b, only to send my rocketing into the blast zone rather then being spiked.

 

[Dragonmaster_Omega]

His Side-B spike hitbox is directly below him. I used to second wolf and i have played Seagull a number times and faced his wolf a few times. A wolf that can space well is going to be one hell of a deal with Samus, because proper spacing completely shuts down her OoS options except MAYBE filt or dtilt if you PS it.

 

[Throwback]

wolf's dtilt/ftilt, or samus'?

 

[IsmaR]

Pretty sure he meant her's.

I find Wolf stupidly annoying. I don't think it's a bad match up(well, compared to everyone/thing else), just annoying.

 

[NO-IDea]

*still has no idea how to play the Wolf MU*

I get Seagull down to last hit last stock every time. Still trying to figure things out.

 

[DelxDoom]

wolf is a bad character and you should feel bad for not beating wolf

olol

As a wolf main from a long long time ago, I must complain that all my characters are bad
honestly, what is giving you guys problems? He walks up, shields through your obstacle course, then starts SH aerialing at you? Spacing bairs? What are your guys' problems, could you be specific lol

 

[NO-IDea]

It's a lot harder than you think. Or from when you played Wolf. Trust me.

 

[DelxDoom]

QUALIFY PLEASE, is what I'm saying

I can learn from both sides, I'm interested

etc
etc

 

[NO-IDea]

It's more generic than specific. Analyzing specifics often resort to theory-craft, which while I don't mind doing, usually assumes both players know the MU and can execute perfectly. And through perfect execution, one can capitalize on one specific advantage to win the match. (Because this isn't the case, Samus' jab cancels and grab still works, despite being disadvantageous frame-wise.)

I still go by percents when classifying my MUs. My general rule is to add or subtract the following five variables based on a scale of -2 to +2, and then multiply the final score by 5% and add to 50%. The variables are correlated, but still are significant enough to stand out on there own.

For example, Wolf:
Aerial Mobility - The higher this is, the less likely Samus can land a kill move in the MU. Wolf has good aerial mobility and can safely pressure shields with b-air, use retreating f-air as a kill move and unfortunately for Samus, can link his n-air to several ground moves due to Samus's size. (-1)

Ground Mobility - The higher this is, the less likely Samus can camp. Wolf's dash is less than mediocre. He does make up for it with an f-smash that spaces itself, a d-throw that prepares its own follow-ups, and DACUS. (0)

Projectile Game - Can this character rival or shut down Samus's projectile game? To an extent, Wolf can. You can certainly stand and charge a shot, power shielding lasers as they are fired. However, Wolf can full hop->reflector, gaining invincibility frames that even z-air can't penetrate, and then proceed to capitalize on aerial mobility. (-1)

Survivability - How does this character fare in weight and recovery? Wolf is heavy, won't die to d-tilt/f-smash until a relatively high perecent and is hard to gimp without heavy risk. (-1)

Size - How well can Samus apply shield pressure and combos? Wolf is slightly bigger than Mario, making z-air viable. His fall speed doesn't help him at all, making aerial combos and even u-smash viable for punishing landing lag. While his shield is bad and succumbs to poking after only one super missile, this is mitigated by reflector use. (+1)

Overall: -2
MU ratio I would give: 60-40 Wolf's favor

He doesn't overwhelm Samus in any particular field, but put together and Wolf is actually a decent character. If you disagree with any of the above, feel free to explain.

 

[Xyro77]

*still has no idea how to play the Wolf MU*

I get Seagull down to last hit last stock every time. Still trying to figure things out.

Noid noidea ragin asian

I know you dont like taking advice from me but hear me out and try what i say and see if i helps or maybe opens up new ways for you to make things happen. I offer one simple step in greatly improving the odds in the MU for you.

POWER SHIELDING(lol hear me out)

First off, i have a feeling this wolf isnt stupid enough to be a zairs length away so hes probably about an ftilt and a half or maybe a little more away from you at all times, right? I say this because its the perfect spot for him to be cause you cant missle or zair him without risk of getting hit. Anyways, about powershielding. Seriously, learn to(or improve on) PS wolfs bair. You can literally run into his bair and powershield it. You can dtilt/ftilt/jab(ONLY do first jab or risk getting shined) if you PS it. Not only does this build damge on him, it also refreshes your killing moves, it makes wolf rethink how he does his attacking and perhaps makes him wanna get more space between you and him(which opens up your zair and missle option). I already know you dont fall for the dthrow to fsmash or dthrow to laser or the ******** bair to fsmash or ftilt or the over-b thru the stage....ect so i wont bother there. Im pretty sure you know the goal is to get him off stage so i wont go there either. So like i said, if u learn to PS better i seriously think you got this **** down.




off topic, marth(fair master) and wolf(bair master) some times feel the same to me. If im PS well that day the MU becomes easier. It doesnt make the MU in our favor but i notice a big *** difference.

 

[NO-IDea]

Eh, in no way did I say I had a b-air problem. Not to mention that I took that advice long ago from a friend. Works for reasons you stated, doesn't work for the following two reasons:

1) Wolf don't spam b-air as an approach, mostly because people are power shielding. It's 2010 guys, not '08. By now, most players have learned not to land in front or DI into the opponent. Not to say it doesn't happen still, but we no longer revolve the metagame around the idea that landing with an aerial on shield is a good idea. It's considered a mix-up at best for most characters. There aren't many highly active Wolf players out there anymore, but check out the vids of the ones still active.

2) A spaced b-air can be punished by perfect shield, but a feint spaced the exact same way puts you in shield for no reason. This is the same for Marth. Marth can switch the timing of f-air (rising or falling), or feint into a grab (shielding extends your hurtbox, making the grab easier to land). It's not the move itself one should look at, but the options it provides for the rest of the moveset. We don't (or at least you shouldn't) use z-air just because of it's range and safety. It should be known by now that z-air offers mix-ups of its own.

As I said in my post earlier, it's not one aspect where Wolf dominates. In many small ways, Wolf is a better character. Thanks for the advice anyway.

 

[Xyro77]

My advice was implying you didnt fall for fake bairs or low bairs.........

Wolf is a very obvious character. He does not have many tricks and really doesnt excel at anything to the point samus cant handle. If this wolf isnt using bair to hit you with then why the hell are you getting hit at all? Maybe you need more ledge play in your life?

 

[KillerJawz]

Ahh Xyro. Your talk on ledge play brings happiness to us all.

From watching Seagull and Choice, I can see that well spaced fairs are a good retreating option as well, perhaps that's something that could be factored into this MU.

 

[Xyro77]

Why would you chase after a retreat bair? Only run in if its an approaching bair.

 

[KillerJawz]

I said fair not bair.

 

[NO-IDea]

My advice was implying you didnt fall for fake bairs or low bairs.........

Wolf is a very obvious character. He does not have many tricks and really doesnt excel at anything to the point samus cant handle. If this wolf isnt using bair to hit you with then why the hell are you getting hit at all? Maybe you need more ledge play in your life?

-dead- @ ledge play

I dunno how to say this Xyro other than the times I said it before.

He doesn't overwhelm Samus in any particular field, but put together and Wolf is actually a decent character.

Eh, in no way did I say I had a b-air problem... As I said in my post earlier, it's not one aspect where Wolf dominates. In many small ways, Wolf is a better character. Thanks for the advice anyway.

And I'll reiterate this. I find this MU personally hard because in my past experience against Wolf, I haven't won by a large amount. Lack of success = difficulty. I blame this mostly due to my inexperience in the MU. I still get to last hit last stock, so proclaiming I'm bad at the MU is false as well.

The amount of competitive Wolf mains in the U.S. is staggeringly low. The only few I can bother thinking of are Choice, JJ and Seagull. Every other Wolf user is less skilled (tournament result wise). So unless you've played any of the three, it's hard to understand the difficulties of the MU.

 

[KillerJawz]

There are really a lack of decent wolfs. We have one over here in Europe, but even then, he seconds D3 :/.

 

[Lord Chair]

You're forgetting Semifer. He's about as good if not better than T.

 

[KillerJawz]

Never even heard of Semifer so I didn't forget him xD.

 

[Xyro77]

So unless you've played any of the three, it's hard to understand the difficulties of the MU.

^This must be the case for me cause i dont have issues with wolf(meaning i dont get molested by them). If i did, i would go rob. Dont you have shiek? I could have sworn sheik has this ftilt lock or something that can do obscene damage.

 

[NO-IDea]

I stopped using Sheik for a couple months. I'm just trying to pick her up again this week for this weekend's tournament.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Noid noidea ragin asian

I know you dont like taking advice from me but hear me out and try what i say and see if i helps or maybe opens up new ways for you to make things happen. I offer one simple step in greatly improving the odds in the MU for you.

POWER SHIELDING(lol hear me out)

First off, i have a feeling this wolf isnt stupid enough to be a zairs length away so hes probably about an ftilt and a half or maybe a little more away from you at all times, right? I say this because its the perfect spot for him to be cause you cant missle or zair him without risk of getting hit. Anyways, about powershielding. Seriously, learn to(or improve on) PS wolfs bair. You can literally run into his bair and powershield it. You can dtilt/ftilt/jab(ONLY do first jab or risk getting shined) if you PS it. Not only does this build damge on him, it also refreshes your killing moves, it makes wolf rethink how he does his attacking and perhaps makes him wanna get more space between you and him(which opens up your zair and missle option). I already know you dont fall for the dthrow to fsmash or dthrow to laser or the ******** bair to fsmash or ftilt or the over-b thru the stage....ect so i wont bother there. Im pretty sure you know the goal is to get him off stage so i wont go there either. So like i said, if u learn to PS better i seriously think you got this **** down.

off topic, marth(fair master) and wolf(bair master) some times feel the same to me. If im PS well that day the MU becomes easier. It doesnt make the MU in our favor but i notice a big *** difference.

Marth's fair and Wolf's bair are pretty similar, but I think Wolf walls better. Plus, Wolf has a projectile and Marth doesn't. Most of the time I juggle Samus for the most damage or Bair or Laser.

My advice was implying you didnt fall for fake bairs or low bairs.........

Wolf is a very obvious character. He does not have many tricks and really doesnt excel at anything to the point samus cant handle. If this wolf isnt using bair to hit you with then why the hell are you getting hit at all? Maybe you need more ledge play in your life?

How does Samus hit without Zair ?

He is always on the ledge. Wolf's Dsmash can reach Samus when she zair recovers on the ledge.

There are really a lack of decent wolfs. We have one over here in Europe, but even then, he seconds D3 :/.

Semifer and T are awesome. Semifer is a Wolf at the peak of the metagame in my opinion.

-dead- @ ledge play

I dunno how to say this Xyro other than the times I said it before.

And I'll reiterate this. I find this MU personally hard because in my past experience against Wolf, I haven't won by a large amount. Lack of success = difficulty. I blame this mostly due to my inexperience in the MU. I still get to last hit last stock, so proclaiming I'm bad at the MU is false as well.

The amount of competitive Wolf mains in the U.S. is staggeringly low. The only few I can bother thinking of are Choice, JJ and Seagull. Every other Wolf user is less skilled (tournament result wise). So unless you've played any of the three, it's hard to understand the difficulties of the MU.

Kain too. Kain's played Sago I think. I dunno how good Sago is compared to other Samus's though.

You're forgetting Semifer. He's about as good if not better than T.

He's better from vids. They have the same tourney placings though.

^This must be the case for me cause i dont have issues with wolf(meaning i dont get molested by them). If i did, i would go rob. Dont you have shiek? I could have sworn sheik has this ftilt lock or something that can do obscene damage.

Rob gets ***** by Wolf. Wolf ***** Sheik without the tilt lock. Tilt lock isn't guaranteed after one Ftilt like on Fox. Wolf can DI and Fair Out of shield. Or shine with DI. I know those matchups too.

I want to go to Whobo 3 on a side note.

 

[Xyro77]

Marth's fair and Wolf's bair are pretty similar, but I think Wolf walls better. Plus, Wolf has a projectile and Marth doesn't. Most of the time I juggle Samus for the most damage or Bair or Laser.

How does Samus hit without Zair ?

He is always on the ledge. Wolf's Dsmash can reach Samus when she zair recovers on the ledge.

Semifer and T are awesome. Semifer is a Wolf at the peak of the metagame in my opinion.

Kain too. Kain's played Sago I think. I dunno how good Sago is compared to other Samus's though.

He's better from vids. They have the same tourney placings though.

Rob gets ***** by Wolf. Wolf ***** Sheik without the tilt lock. Tilt lock isn't guaranteed after one Ftilt like on Fox. Wolf can DI and Fair Out of shield. Or shine with DI. I know those matchups too.

I want to go to Whobo 3 on a side note.

SEAGULL MAN DUDE GUY

Please go to whobo 3. noid is going maybe you guys should team?

 

[Seagull Joe]

SEAGULL MAN DUDE GUY

Please go to whobo 3. noid is going maybe you guys should team?

I'll try to go.

 

[-LzR-]

So I have been playing against a really good Samus player. He is incredible.

So how is Samus so crappy? I mean, she has no lag in her aerials, missiles create wonderful frametraps and her zair is incredibly safe and it combos really well.

I don't see anything bad except killing. And is her killing problem that bad it makes her a bottom tier character? I don't think so. So tell me what makes her so bad and how to beat Samus.

 

[KillerJawz]

She has plenty of priority problems. Lacks decent OoS options that are not SDIable. She lacks kill setups, kill power and missiles lose to everything. Charge Shot is beaten out by most aerials and most of her aerials are indeed lagless, but she's floaty and gets combo'd extremely easily by jugglers. She lacks a decent melee game as well. She also lacks disjoints in moves that DESPERATLY NEED THEM (Bair).

 

[IYM!]

Bair have a disyointed hit box, also all fire attacks and Zair too

 

[KillerJawz]

Bair does not have a disjoint. The hitbox is as you see it. Her fire based attacks have large disjoints, but she really wants it in bair. Can you imagine if bair came out a bit faster, was safer on block and had more of a disjoint? That would just be disgusting <3.

 

[IYM!]

to be honest i am very satisfied with the Bair, is a strong move, easy to conect and is fast, i would like that Nair have kill power, no so much as melee, but , more knockback always is good