Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[KillerJawz]

I've love for nair to have more knockback. I'd actually favour it over up b as an OoS option.

 

[-LzR-]

Ah thanks a lot, I understand. Don't you think her high shorthop also sucks?
I can't really out prioritize missiles or anything thanks being a MK user. But thanks anyways. Maybe my opponent is just really a lot better than me.

 

[IYM!]

beat Samus as MK isnt hard. all your moves can defeat Samus ones, (that is why i hate mk)

good luck in your next battle -LzR-

 

[Throwback]

If you're losing to samus as MK you're probably spacing incorrectly. I recommend getting in her face & staying there. Don't let her charge her shot & she will have a very hard time responding to nado. If she goes off the edge, force her to tether to the ledge then dair/nair for a stock (this is very hard for samus to get around thanks to MK's 6 jumps and insane aerials), OR if she is coming from high you can wait for the airdodge then upB for a kill.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

For being a heavy weight, Samus sucks at living long due to her horrible momentum cancel.

 

[Muz]

-LzR-, who is the samus you are facing, and do you have any vids of you two vsing?

Other problems Samus has against MK:
-samus can't play the ledge like she wants
-mk has an easy time gimping samus off the stage
-samus has a hard time punishing MK after tornado because she falls slowly
-samus has a hard time approaching because of mk's shuttle loop, limiting aerial approaches, and samus has a weak ground game

 

[IYM!]

For being a heavy weight, Samus sucks at living long due to her horrible momentum cancel.

Samus dont have a bad MC, is good, but no .

i do bombs for MC and it realy works, first i do Uair, if the hit is strong, i do 2 , and immediately i drop a bomb

 

[Throwback]

if you have time to do 2 uairs, you're probably not going to die anyway & the bomb is a waste of time. I'm also pretty sure it's already been found that bombs don't MC.

The biggest issue with samus' longevity is her terrible ffall speed.

 

[IYM!]

Are you sure Throwback? the bombs work for me

 

[KillerJawz]

Throwback means she can't live long off the top. See floaty characters have the ability to live much longer off the sides then off the top, I'm not exactly sure why it works, but it does. For example, if Samus is fsmashed by a Marth, she will live longer then Ganondorf, who is heavier then herself, but if she is utilted by Snake, she'll die quicker then Yoshi, who is lighter then her.

 

[Throwback]

Are you sure Throwback? the bombs work for me

do they actually momentum cancel or are you just using them at a time when you wouldn't die anyway?

@KJ I was just referring to the fact that her terrible fast-fall speed means that she gets less benefit from hitting down on the c-stick than other characters (when she is hit upwards). The thing about the floatiness + sideways survival is incredibly obscure, I've never heard of it lol

 

[KillerJawz]

@KJ I was just referring to the fact that her terrible fast-fall speed means that she gets less benefit from hitting down on the c-stick than other characters (when she is hit upwards).

Thats what I said.

The thing about the floatiness + sideways survival is incredibly obscure, I've never heard of it lol

It's been known for a long time, just not by many people. I personally discovered it when finding out if we killed any characters quicker then 100% without DI from the other side of FD (which we don't). I discovered during this time that Jigglypuff was living longer off the sides then G&W, but dying a good few % off the top before anybody else (moves used were Fsmash angled up and dtilt).

I also lived a fresh bthrow (blue) from Olimar at 168% from the side of Delphino. Snake/D3/DK can barely pull that off, and I'm not so sure that Bowser can.

 

[Throwback]

It might have something to do with the fact that samus has faster deceleration than most characters, as does jiggly.

Since you said without DI, it could have something to do with natural (ie no input) braking rate; I don't know if that's constant between characters or not.

A 3rd hypothesis is that 'fat' characters hit the blast line earlier simply because they are wider. I think (but can't confirm atm) that snake has a wide hit-stun (hit-lag???) animation, whereas samus doesn't. No idea about G&W/jiggs though. Regardless, this one's a pretty far-fetched guess.

 

[-LzR-]

My opponent is Skinutski. He is among the best players and is by far the best player in my area. No one has ever come close to beating a set against him in a tournament.
He doesn't play Samus in tourneys thought.
I can sometimes beat his Samus, but he can read most of my stuff, he is so good at it.
But I'll try not to let him charge the powershot.
He usually finished me by shooting some missiles, waits until my shield is weaker and shoots it with some kind of a frametrap that Samus has and shoots it at me.

Again, MK and his priority backfires in this MU. I can't beat his missiles without nado or DA and that gets predictable after a while. Maybe I just need to play the MU a lot more.

Well thanks again Samus players.

 

[IYM!]

Good luck -LzR-, you can do it, ah, and is charge shot dont power shot XD


@Throwback: i drop a bomb in the last moment, this works, because, when i was hited by a Fsmash, i die if dont use a bomb.

 

[-LzR-]

Well yeah I see, it's not powershot, because nothing about it really is similar at all to "power" as this thing sucks for killing.
And I still gotta say again that the player behind Samus is by far a better player so it's not a big deal if I lose to him with MK sometimes.

I just always fall for the same thing.

Missile -> Powershield -> Grab while I am stuck in my shield

How do I avoid that trap?

 

[-Cross-]

Spotdodge or roll back or forward depending the level of risk you want to take and how good your character's roll is. The key is doing it before the missile hits your shield, or if you powershield buffering the command asap, technically the best option is to not shield anyway. If you find yourself shielding against this shield trap that means that you are too much of a reactive shielder (most people are) and you just shield out of habit and not because you expect what the enemy Samus is going to do.

But if you're stuck in shield anyway, I would use an aerial that clashes with the missile, if you're using MK just upB OoS if you see the Samus rushing at you after shooting the missile. Grounded SL hitbox is pretty big.

 

[IYM!]

I just always fall for the same thing.

Missile -> Powershield -> Grab while I am stuck in my shield

How do I avoid that trap?[/QUOTE]


you must see the moment, if your opponent shot a missile, stay alert of the possibles moves, with practice you will evade it,

sorry if this dont the answere that you want, but i dont see another solution

 

[Throwback]

spot-dodge works most of the time & lets you punish with anything you like

 

[KillerJawz]

Just retreating Nado the missile and Samus's grab will NEVER land. Or better yet, just stay above Samus :/.

 

[-LzR-]

Hey thanks a lot. I appreciate how you help me destroy your character
I have never thought about the reactive shielder thing. MK has weird aerials as they have high priority, but won't even beat Din's Fire.
I am going to try nado then and see what happens.

 

[KillerJawz]

It's a sure bet. If you're still having trouble, send some videos our way and we'll help you some more.

 

[-LzR-]

I doubt I can get any videos this year, but maybe later. We rarely record our matches.

 

[KillerJawz]

Well if you can provide the .bin files I'll be happy to record them for you.

 

[-LzR-]

I mean, we never record our matches and even more rarely save the replays. So no can do.

 

[-Cross-]

Where is the frame data for this character?

 

[Xyro77]

Where is the frame data for this character?

No one will do it for us. I did it a while back but it was the old inaccurate way. Ask any brawl+ nerd to do it or a smash dev and they will help you. I would like to see the TRUE data too.

 

[Throwback]

all I know is that her landing frames are awesome.

Also KJ, I really wouldn't recommend getting above samus unless you are edgeguarding - uair has got to be samus' 2nd-best move.

 

[KillerJawz]

Disregard post.

 

[DelxDoom]

yeah, air to air uair suckssssssssss

 

[Throwback]

It's the 2nd best move (imo) in OUR arsenal. Are you forgetting that Jigglypuff is the queen of the air? Why would you want to go there with her? You want to stay grounded as much as possible. We can't use our frame traps with uair on Jiggly, she's far too floaty. We can't combo uair, and Jiggs can SDI out of it and punish with fair/nair or even REST (yes, it has happened).

errrrrr, what? We have been talking about MK, not Jiggs.

 

[KillerJawz]

errrrrr, what? We have been talking about MK, not Jiggs.

LOL I posted that in the wrong thread! Disregard completely xD!!!

 

[Blubolouis]

Your Upb is reallllly obnoxious, how do I sdi it? I know that sdi-ing the first hit is easy if you see it coming, but if you're caught, what do you do? Sdi up, down..?
Also, does it have invincibility frames?

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Your Upb is reallllly obnoxious, how do I sdi it? I know that sdi-ing the first hit is easy if you see it coming, but if you're caught, what do you do? Sdi up, down..?
Also, does it have invincibility frames?

According to Noid, hold the analogue stick up and SDI up. As for invincibility frames, I'm not sure. Someone more knowledgeable will have to inform you and me on that one. I'd rather say "not sure" than misinform.

 

[KillerJawz]

It doesn't have invincibility frames. It hits on frame 5.

 

[Darkmetroidomega]

Sorry if I'm bringing up an old topic, but do bombs have some use in the MU with MK? I have very little experience in that area and from watching some of Muz's videos, it seems to work when the MK doesn't choose to pressure with nados (to a certain extent, anyway).

 

[NO-IDea]

Nice to see that this thread is still alive! I was for sure the whole "trash character" excuse would pop up and destroy this thread.

I have a question for NO-IDea; how reliable is following up a missle with an aerial attack, such as an nair? I watched your video against Charizard, and I noticed that the missile didn't knock back Charizard crazy far.

How DO you consistently perform SH missile -> ground missile anyway? I end up getting a smash missile in the mix, and/or my DI is off.

If the opponent is in the air, the missile is meant to limit options. Whether or not the missile connect didn't matter during those scenarios because I was attempting to just connect the aerial. Therefore, it won't necessarily matter if you're opting for homing or super.

As for the second question, I'm unsure if I'm interpreting it correctly. Could you elaborate?

Sorry if I'm bringing up an old topic, but do bombs have some use in the MU with MK? I have very little experience in that area and from watching some of Muz's videos, it seems to work when the MK doesn't choose to pressure with nados (to a certain extent, anyway).

Halfway through reading that post, I was about to link you to one of Muz's videos.

It seems to be popular with wifi players. SmashGOD comes to mind. Overall, I'd recommend not to put emphasis on it though. You don't want to revolve your gameplay on an attack that's so stringent on timing against a character with fast ground speed like MK. However, I will recommend it as a mind game or retreating manuever.

 

[Darkmetroidomega]

It seems to be popular with wifi players. SmashGOD comes to mind. Overall, I'd recommend not to put emphasis on it though. You don't want to revolve your gameplay on an attack that's so stringent on timing against a character with fast ground speed like MK. However, I will recommend it as a mind game or retreating manuever.

Alright, thanks. I had guessed something along those lines, but I believed that bomb use would have almost 0 effect on MK.

I guess in general I just have a hard time adapting to MK's approach. Zair works, but it becomes increasingly difficult to keep him from getting inside my spam wall =(

 

[Throwback]

Like noid said, MK's very fast on the ground, and you may have noticed he's also very short. My aim from any neutral position is actually to get inside MK's wall of incredible range, frames & nado. In other words, I tend to run at him, not away. You can dash into: retreating zair (having ensured a defensive play from MK); dash attack; shield (the go-to option); spot-dodge, or a SH aerial. Don't go for retreating options UNTIL you have conditioned the MK to expect your approach.

I suggest trying for zair or missile frame traps after you get a big frame advantage on MK (which is very hard to do).

Note that by 'frame advantage' I'm talking about 'frames until MK can hit you', not the +/- frames usually referred to.


Also, I want to add that MK's shield is pretty horrible, and samus' shield stabbing is absolutely phenomenal (nair). Ergo, HMC frame traps are gold in this MU. Sadly they are very very hard to set up thanks to nado, sideB, 6 jumps, glide attack, incredible running speed and the fact that YOU will be the one in tumble animation most of the time, not MK.

 

[Laem]

how does falcon beat samus' ledgejump fair onstage