Social Skyworld Hub - "Soaring through the Skys"

[CHOMPY]

Whats your twitter name? Sensane

We'll just see about that! @Strider_123

Shall we settle it over a smash game?

 

[Sensane]

My twitter is @BestNecromancer

 

[SmashGamer1998]

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Not working

 

[Sensane]

Here's a random pic to compensate:

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Here's a random pic to compensate:
View attachment 108821

Good enough

 

[Sensane]

ZeRo's tier list vid made me want to revise my tier list:

Edit: Put Robin in front of Mac

 

[LancerStaff]

Peach is pretty high don't you think? Upper mid is a little big and jumbled up...
Mid is fine but still too big. I'd probably move everybody right of WFT down to low mid.
...Don't get how Roy is ahead of Marth when Marth has better theory and results. Actually I don't think any of them belong in that tier.
Link and Robin seem more low mid then low, IMO.
Palutena's results are way too good for bottom tier, possibly also low mid. Not entirely sure what makes Mii Swordfighter bottom either.

 

[Sensane]

Peach is pretty high don't you think? Upper mid is a little big and jumbled up...
Mid is fine but still too big. I'd probably move everybody right of WFT down to low mid.
...Don't get how Roy is ahead of Marth when Marth has better theory and results. Actually I don't think any of them belong in that tier.
Link and Robin seem more low mid then low, IMO.
Palutena's results are way too good for bottom tier, possibly also low mid. Not entirely sure what makes Mii Swordfighter bottom either.

Peach has potential, but her difficulty against campers and zoners can hinder her ability.
There actually is no low mid; it's just low tier.
Have you ever played a roy player? You really underrate roy sometimes.
I can understand marth having better results, but better theory? Ahhhhh, no. If you took the time to play roy you'd see why he isn't as bad as you make him out to be (though to be fair you aren't the only one underrating him (still looking at @AceStarThe3rd and his huge incompetence)). Also, marth has been about as explored as you can get. He struggles against a plethora of characters like pikachu, sonic, various zoners, etc. Yeah he beats Mario, but even with his buffs, I can't really see hime being solo viable.
However, marth, roy, and lucina have tools that they're just too shy of mid imo, but they're nowhere near low tier (hence the marth n clones tier).
Robin and link are a little too slow for mid imo, though you are right, I do feel that I'm not givin them enough credit.
What results has palutena had recently? I honestly haven't seen them.
The miis are all with their 1111 movesets (I really need to say what movesets they use XP) and all mii players will say how bad they are with their 1111 movesets.
Sorry the mid and upper tiers are too big, I haven't made a tier list in a long while and it felt wrong placing some of these characters into lower tiers.

 

[The Merc]

...Don't get how Roy is ahead of Marth when Marth has better theory and results. Actually I don't think any of them belong in that tier..

I think it's more which grouping the character is in rather than placement. Though seriously, Roy isn't nearly as bad as you think. Yes, Marth does have the advantage with his Buffs, but a good Roy player can still beat a Marth player or any other character
Just have a look at this video

About the 3:50 mark

Robin and link are a little too slow for mid imo, though you are right, I do feel that I'm not givin them enough credit.

*Claims Link and Robin too slow
*Bowser, Ike and DK still Middle tier

Hm.... ah yes, I can not see your logic behind this

 

[Koiba]

ZeRo's tier list vid made me want to revise my tier list:
View attachment 108906
Edit: Put Robin in front of Mac

You guys remember a year ago when everyone thought Mewtwo was trash?




















Then Abadango came in



Shulk seems a liiiiitle bit too high imo. Robin is a bit low too. I feel like some mid chars should've been in either upper or lower.

And can someone explain why Kirby is considered bad? I must get educated.

 

[Sensane]

*Claims Link and Robin too slow
*Bowser, Ike and DK still Middle tier

Hm.... ah yes, I can not see your logic behind this

But bowser and dk are fast and have better tools, and ike is the scariest character to fight imo. Robin has the levin sword, yeah, but his projectiles aren't that great, and link is just outplayed by several other characters imo.

You guys remember a year ago when everyone thought Mewtwo was trash?




















Then Abadango came in



Shulk seems a liiiiitle bit too high imo. Robin is a bit low too. I feel like some mid chars should've been in either upper or lower.

And can someone explain why Kirby is considered bad? I must get educated.

Mewtwo was neer really trash, just not very good. Pre patch mewtwo was always low mid at best and bottom 10-6 at worst in my book, but now his buffs make him amazing.
Shulk has a ton of potential and can go even with zss and probably beats (or at least goes even with) mario. Plus monado art canceling is the new shulk meta.
Kirby's not bad, he's just low tier. He can't really approach anyone or deal with disjoints very well. People on anthers ladder make him look better than he actually is.

 

[The Merc]

But bowser and dk are fast and have better tools, and ike is the scariest character to fight imo. Robin has the levin sword, yeah, but his projectiles aren't that great, and link is just outplayed by several other characters imo.

Bowser.... is fast....
I don't think so. His frame data is near similar to Link's, if not just 1-2 Frames faster here and there.

Well if that is your thoughts, then i don't think you know much about the characters. I can say for Robin he is put at a disadvantage with faster characters, I will give you that, but calling his projectiles "not great" is just insulting. They are great. Have you not seen what his books can do? You just need to know how to use them.

Again with Link, the only character he gets outplayed by speedier characters, and even then Link can still deal with them. You need to know how to use his projectiles is all.

 

[Koiba]

Shulk has a ton of potential and can go even with zss and probably beats (or at least goes even with) mario. Plus monado art canceling is the new shulk meta.

Um, I'm gonna disagree with you here

At best the ZSS is still pretty hard for Shulk. ZSS's frame data is literally 99.937593% better than Shulk's, if she gets in it's extremely hard to get out.


Wouldn't really call MALLC a "new" Shulk meta when it's already been found and explored a year and a half ago

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Evo...Pit...must catch up on the latest Smash news

 

[Sensane]

Man, the SATs were tedious af, man, couldn't keep myself together for like three hours. Anyways, my responses:

Why does everyone think that bowser is slow? Sure he has mediocre frame data, but his ground mobility is well above average. This isn't melee or brawl where his slide hardly qualifies for decent mobility, he can actually run fast now. What makes him so slow?

Shulk goes even with zss because his range + increased shield stun + buster + zss's terrible grab + nerf on said grab + subpar neutral = difficulty punishing shulk, especially since shulk has low landing lag on his nair. More people are saying how much potential shulk has as the game goes on. Once someone like tremendo dude or nicko gets out and about more, more people will see what he can do (why haven't I gone back to shulk yet despite technically never dropping the character?). Shulk in general has a ton of potential, and yeah mallcing isn't a new thing, but to be fair most people couldn't consistently utilize it in neutral that often. His only real flaws are his poor frame data and high startup on some of his moves (and high endlag on others).

Robin's projectiles are bad as a list because thunder has short range, arc fire is too laggy and easily punishable when whiffed, and arc thunder is really slow. Elthunder and thoron are fast and damaging, but that's the most robin can get out of projectiles. I don't find him that much of a threat, especially considering that he has a limit on his projectiles. I find him to be somewhat overrated.

Link doesn't have great frame data or mobility (though to be fair his frame data is better than shulk's in terms of startup). He's better than robin because of his bombs, kill power, weight, and the fact that he actually strikes fear into me.

 

[Koiba]

Shulk goes even with zss because his range + increased shield stun + buster + zss's terrible grab + nerf on said grab + subpar neutral = difficulty punishing shulk,

Can't she punish with other options besides grab though?

 

[Sensane]

Can't she punish with other options besides grab though?

Not out of shield; zss can't really punish that well when coming out of her shield (I used to main zss, but I dropped her for this very reason (that and the nerfs she received really hurt her play for me)).

Evo...Pit...must catch up on the latest Smash news

Might not want to catch up on too much; there's a sociopath who has recently been banned from the 2gg series for cautionary purposes.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Not out of shield; zss can't really punish that well when coming out of her shield (I used to main zss, but I dropped her for this very reason (that and the nerfs she received really hurt her play for me)).

Might not want to catch up on too much; there's a sociopath who has recently been banned from the 2gg series for cautionary purposes.

Doesn't seem important

 

[LancerStaff]

Have you ever played a roy player? You really underrate roy sometimes.

Best Roy I've played thinks he's 7th from the bottom actually. I'm really not underestimating him... He's ridiculously flawed. Even at a core level comparing his stuff to Marth's numbers it makes no sense at all. Most of Roy's ground moves do 0.5 - 1% more then Marth's on either the sweetspot or sourspot and have like three frames less endlag at most for objectively worse hitbox placement. Roy's aerials are weaker overall, to the point where the hilt on Marth's Uair is stronger then his. ...Just, why? All his other pros over Marth seem to have been built with cons that cancel out most or all of the advantage he could of gained, and that's before Marth got buffed to heck and now we have oddities like Roy's Dsmash having nearly ten more frames of endlag compared to Marth's.

Like, really, if you could go point-for-point how Roy even deserves to be in the same tier as Marth that'd help a lot because frankly I don't see how.

...but a good Roy player can still beat a Marth player or any other character

...Dude, quoting a meme isn't helping your case. I don't care that one of his best players occasionally catches people off guard with him. That's not the point, and I never said he couldn't. I struggle to fit ten characters below him. The only reason I don't say he's bottom tier is because Zelda and Puff exist.

If you really think he'sworth more then that then place him on your own tier list and explain why.

 

[Airpoizon]

Not out of shield; zss can't really punish that well when coming out of her shield (I used to main zss, but I dropped her for this very reason (that and the nerfs she received really hurt her play for me)).

Might not want to catch up on too much; there's a sociopath who has recently been banned from the 2gg series for cautionary purposes.

Your tier list is probably one of the best I've seen imo, the only change I'd make is to put Lucas a bit higher.

 

[Sensane]

Hey lancer I made an analysis on marth and roy on smash amino that I think you should go check out. It's on the featured page right now. You said you wanted me to go point for point, so.....there's that.

Also, uniown hero wasn't quoting a meme; roy mains have actually beaten marth mains before, not just in the set video he showed you.

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey lancer I made an analysis on marth and roy on smash amino that I think you should go check out. It's on the featured page right now. You said you wanted me to go point for point, so.....there's that.

Also, uniown hero wasn't quoting a meme; roy mains have actually beaten marth mains before, not just in the set video he showed you.

Smash Amino? Mind linking, because I've never heard of it.

"Any skilled Roy can beat a Marth/Fox" has been a meme since the early days of Smashboards... It's a meme because it's a flawed argument. Doesn't matter if you or Sethlon or anybody beats a Marth with Roy when you're not comparing them with players at the same skill level. When the two players are at the same level then it's obvious that Roy's at a severe disadvantage.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Guessing Roy isn't popular still/anymore

 

[Airpoizon]

Guessing Roy isn't popular still/anymore

Just underestimated.

 

[Koiba]

Not out of shield; zss can't really punish that well when coming out of her shield (I used to main zss, but I dropped her for this very reason (that and the nerfs she received really hurt her play for me)).

She can't do an OoS nair? Dash attack?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Just underestimated.

So Roy memes are dead?

 

[Airpoizon]

So Roy memes are dead?

Silly child, Roy memes will never die.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Silly child, Roy memes will never die.

It seems like they did

 

[Sensane]

She can't do an OoS nair? Dash attack?

Nair is too slow to be a good out of shield option, and name one characer who can dash attack oos lol.

Smash Amino? Mind linking, because I've never heard of it.

"Any skilled Roy can beat a Marth/Fox" has been a meme since the early days of Smashboards... It's a meme because it's a flawed argument. Doesn't matter if you or Sethlon or anybody beats a Marth with Roy when you're not comparing them with players at the same skill level. When the two players are at the same level then it's obvious

Smash amino is an app. You can download it on ios (idk about android, but it should be downloaded). My page is on the featured page like right now.

I didn't know it's been a meme for a while. I thought it was just a joke in the one video lol.

 

[Shaya]

dash attack oos is really good for a lot of characters.
7 frame drops, 1 frame start up of dash, dash attacks around the 5-8 mark.

A lot of ground moves and auto cancel aerials we consider safe are around the -15 to -20 mark. Dingdingding.

 

[Sensane]

dash attack oos is really good for a lot of characters.
7 frame drops, 1 frame start up of dash, dash attacks around the 5-8 mark.

A lot of ground moves and auto cancel aerials we consider safe are around the -15 to -20 mark. Dingdingding.

No; you can jump oos and use a fast aerial. You can even up smash out of shield.

 

[Shaya]

My eyes are rolling.

It's almost like you're saying a jump aerial (with requiring time for aerial mobility to ramp up) or up smash has as much horizontal range as a dash attack.
And/or that retreating aerials (air time for higher aerial mobility) and solid ground pokes like Marth's ftilt after shield push back are going to be in range of your immediate aerials/up smash.

If your character mains are accurate, it's bewildering that two of the fastest/longest ranged dash attacks in the game have completely gone over your head as an oos option.

 

[Sensane]

Your eyes are hating; your eyes are patrolling; trying to catch me riding dirty (please kill me now).

I never thought about any dash attacks as viable oos options. I always thought that oos meant just bypassing the shield drop frames (like a jump/up smash does), but apparently it just means your next option out of shield. I legit never thought of that XP

 

[Shaya]

Dash Attacks OoS were staple in Brawl more so than Smash4.
And I get now that you meant the native oos options, just the wording of it "name one char who can dash attack oos" "well, everybody? #_#" (Sonic and Fox, yuck)

A lot of characters love their jab oos too because that's usually 9-10 frames (7 frame shield drop, etc). When people are referring to a character's diversity in OoS options they also are referring to their immediate attacks.
Like, that jab oos at 9-10 frames, is going to be the same amount of time as the usual jump aerial (4 frame jump squat, 6 frames or more aerial start up).

Pit's dash attack oos is 15 frames, which is going to be more horizontal space covered oos in the same amount of time as anything you can do. Pit's DA OoS used to give me nightmares before they actually allowed Marth aerials that can be safe spaced properly.

ZSS DA OoS is 16 frames, same as her grab. Jab OoS at 8 frames is pretty great. Shulk does deceptively alright against ZSS, don't think it's even though. Not having an immediate OoS answer to a landing shulk (not many chars do/should) doesn't change the fact the next action he does is either shield or not a threat for a dozen or so frames at the minimum.
Obviously Up-B at 4 frames is pretty awesome.

 

[The Merc]

Best Roy I've played thinks he's 7th from the bottom actually. I'm really not underestimating him... He's ridiculously flawed. Even at a core level comparing his stuff to Marth's numbers it makes no sense at all. Most of Roy's ground moves do 0.5 - 1% more then Marth's on either the sweetspot or sourspot and have like three frames less endlag at most for objectively worse hitbox placement. Roy's aerials are weaker overall, to the point where the hilt on Marth's Uair is stronger then his. ...Just, why? All his other pros over Marth seem to have been built with cons that cancel out most or all of the advantage he could of gained, and that's before Marth got buffed to heck and now we have oddities like Roy's Dsmash having nearly ten more frames of endlag compared to Marth's.

Like, really, if you could go point-for-point how Roy even deserves to be in the same tier as Marth that'd help a lot because frankly I don't see how.



...Dude, quoting a meme isn't helping your case. I don't care that one of his best players occasionally catches people off guard with him. That's not the point, and I never said he couldn't. I struggle to fit ten characters below him. The only reason I don't say he's bottom tier is because Zelda and Puff exist.

If you really think he'sworth more then that then place him on your own tier list and explain why.

.... Meme?

I was being serious. You seriously are underestimating Rou at the moment. I'm not going to say his easily top tier, no. However, even if Roy is low tier, he can easily take on most mid tiers + highs.

Also another important point

Tier list don't mean jack ****

That is all

 

[Sensane]

If I knew how fast my dash attacks came out relative to oos then that friggin dinosaur wouldn't be able to get away with his stupid dash attacks.

 

[Shaya]

Dinosaur? Dash attacks?
Yoshi?

So you learned something new today? :o

 

[TMNTSSB4]

What has happened here?

 

[Koiba]

What has happened here?

Sm4sh Lessons with Shaya



It seems you missed class today