Social Skyworld Hub - "Soaring through the Skys"

[Sensane]

Updated my pit mu chart:

TALK! If it's about our [other] boy, keep salt to a minimum plz.

 

[Koiba]

Updated my pit mu chart:
View attachment 115240

TALK! If it's about our [other] boy, keep salt to a minimum plz.

From my experience I don't think it's even for Banado boy. At least in out advantage imo

But other than that I'm not too hot with writing massive paragraphs on the game soooooo.....
Talking one on one is much better for me ^^;;

 

[Final-Fortress]

From my experience I don't think it's even for Banado boy. At least in out advantage imo

Agree. Again from personal experience. Maybe I just met bad players.

 

[The Merc]

Updated my pit mu chart:
View attachment 115240

TALK! If it's about our [other] boy, keep salt to a minimum plz.

I personally feel that Link and Robin are too low.

Not saying that Pit doesn't has the advantage, just with the strength and the projectiles they both have, it's not a flat out win for Pit.

 

[Sensane]

From my experience I don't think it's even for Banado boy. At least in out advantage imo

But other than that I'm not too hot with writing massive paragraphs on the game soooooo.....
Talking one on one is much better for me ^^;;

Agree. Again from personal experience. Maybe I just met bad players.

I can kinda see how we would have a sligh advantage, but a shulk can wall us out very easily. His monado arts are also tricky to deal with at times. Good Shulk players are super patient, even the mediocre shulk players at least know that shulk cannot be played aggressively. Sure shulk can't really escape pressure that well, but air slash oos can catch us off guard. If he misses it he'll normally get punished, but then again if we send him upwards he can just land using nair or use a bair or fair to throw us off, so we need to keep him offstage so that he can't escape our pressure, but shulk has quite a few (albeit slow) get off me tools that can work in plenty of situations. It's like fighting a slower zss that can actually give you breathing room. Vision and buster/smash alone make it so that we can't make a single mistake or else we'll get punished hard. Arrow camping is only good if shulk doesn't have jump or speed monado. Shulk is one of those mus that can either be free or super difficult depending on whtat you do, and I consider those types of matchups even.

I personally feel that Link and Robin are too low.

Not saying that Pit doesn't has the advantage, just with the strength and the projectiles they both have, it's not a flat out win for Pit.

Link and Robin are kinda similar in a way. They fall under pressure rather easily. We can also camp them out for days and they cannot land, and whaddya know: pit is fantastic at catching landings. Their recoveries are also rather exploitable, especially link's. Link I actually feel is more of a +1 rather than a +2 since he can wall us out, but his poor mobility and subpar frame data prevent him from being any more of a threat. Robin you can sleep on more since his projectiles either take a bit to startup (arcthunder and thoron), have mediocre range (thunder) or both (arcfire). The only projectile worth concerning about is elthunder and his tomes/levins. Yes, he can hoo hah for a kill at like 86 or something, but remember he has to get in first, and actually bypass his bad grab range.

 

[Tito Maas]

If any of you guys are in the Georgia, North Carolina, and South Carolina regions:

https://smash.gg/tournament/donut-dub-i/details

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Welp, I forgot this place existed again.

I know how you feel

 

[The Merc]

Link and Robin are kinda similar in a way. They fall under pressure rather easily. We can also camp them out for days and they cannot land, and whaddya know: pit is fantastic at catching landings. Their recoveries are also rather exploitable, especially link's. Link I actually feel is more of a +1 rather than a +2 since he can wall us out, but his poor mobility and subpar frame data prevent him from being any more of a threat. Robin you can sleep on more since his projectiles either take a bit to startup (arcthunder and thoron), have mediocre range (thunder) or both (arcfire). The only projectile worth concerning about is elthunder and his tomes/levins. Yes, he can hoo hah for a kill at like 86 or something, but remember he has to get in first, and actually bypass his bad grab range.

Well by your logic then, shouldn't Robin be +1 if Link is +1 since they are kinda of similar?

I mean i see your points as too why you put them there, and i'm not Smash expert so my word means nothing honestly with ohw much i play LInk, Robin and Pit, I just feel like Robin and Link are at least +1.

I mean sure Robin's projectiles are slow, but Pit's arrow aren't exactly the next Fox's Blaster. Plus Robin's projectiles give him really good stage control. On on the subject of frame data, Robin's is better then Link's, and easily matchable to Pit's. And you seem have forgotten Link can use his Clawshot to recover, which can reach a long way away.

Just saying Link and Robin not as bad as you may think

 

[ReRaze]

There's a Robin and a Link on my PR and I have to say the MU is in Pit's favour but it's definitely not +2

Biggest thing is their kill power, we can outplay them in neutral and even outcamp them but they kill much earlier than we can.

edit: wait The Merc you're from Aus right? you know xettman and ignis?

 

[Sensane]

Well by your logic then, shouldn't Robin be +1 if Link is +1 since they are kinda of similar?

I mean i see your points as too why you put them there, and i'm not Smash expert so my word means nothing honestly with ohw much i play LInk, Robin and Pit, I just feel like Robin and Link are at least +1.

I mean sure Robin's projectiles are slow, but Pit's arrow aren't exactly the next Fox's Blaster. Plus Robin's projectiles give him really good stage control. On on the subject of frame data, Robin's is better then Link's, and easily matchable to Pit's. And you seem have forgotten Link can use his Clawshot to recover, which can reach a long way away.

Just saying Link and Robin not as bad as you may think

That is not what I said at all; I said they were similar IN TERMS OF HOW YOU PLAY THE MATCHUP.

Arrows are actually what you shouldn't be relying on much. They're useful, but you need play a more pressuring playstyle with aerials, as Robin has a bad oos game aside from up smash oos and maybe a nair, but the latter is the only safe one of the two as up smash has too much endlag.

Also, btw, I actually updated this again just so I could put link at +1 instead of a +2 because I forgot about his range.

 

[Final-Fortress]

I know how you feel

RIP us

 

[Tito Maas]

I get trashed by Link pretty regularly tbh

 

[Sensane]

Tryhard ness main spams pk thunder in a match and SDs with pk thunder and then this happens:

-_- Anther's is toxic sometimes.

 

[Koiba]

Tryhard ness main spams pk thunder in a match and SDs with pk thunder and then this happens:
View attachment 115429
View attachment 115430
-_- Anther's is toxic sometimes.

OMG Ness being a "thunder heavy" character lmao

I've been playing Ness wrong the whole time then thanks for clearing that up nintendo53!!!!!!

 

[Final-Fortress]

Tryhard ness main spams pk thunder in a match and SDs with pk thunder and then this happens:
View attachment 115429
View attachment 115430
-_- Anther's is toxic sometimes.

I'm sorry

 

[Sensane]

No no; I love the salt, too. It's delicious!

 

[LancerStaff]

Updated my pit mu chart:
View attachment 115240

TALK! If it's about our [other] boy, keep salt to a minimum plz.

...Why does Pit lose to DK?

Roy, Falco, Kirby, DDD, Shulk and Palutena I don't think are even with Pit, largely because I don't think they're that good to begin with. We can play safer then Roy and deal just as much, if not more, to him. Falco and Kirby we outspeed and outrange while not being combo'd hard by them. Kirby's better but he struggles with swords. DDD's only real advantage at all is that Gordos can be hard to reflect... Shulk doesn't really wall us out. Palutena's just mediocre at everything besides movement, Pit's pretty good at everything. She doesn't have any real advantages.

Ike and Pac I also think Pit beats but not because they're terrible characters. Cloud and Rosa I don't think beat vanilla Pit. Dark Pit's better against Rosa but not by much. Pit I'm sure is the better of the two against Cloud because he can stop him from gaining limit in certain situations.

 

[Final-Fortress]

So, I actually began playing For Glory again after so long.

I can safely assure you folks that I had my ass handed to me on a silver platter.

****.

 

[Sensane]

...Why does Pit lose to DK?

Roy, Falco, Kirby, DDD, Shulk and Palutena I don't think are even with Pit, largely because I don't think they're that good to begin with. We can play safer then Roy and deal just as much, if not more, to him. Falco and Kirby we outspeed and outrange while not being combo'd hard by them. Kirby's better but he struggles with swords. DDD's only real advantage at all is that Gordos can be hard to reflect... Shulk doesn't really wall us out. Palutena's just mediocre at everything besides movement, Pit's pretty good at everything. She doesn't have any real advantages.

Ike and Pac I also think Pit beats but not because they're terrible characters. Cloud and Rosa I don't think beat vanilla Pit. Dark Pit's better against Rosa but not by much. Pit I'm sure is the better of the two against Cloud because he can stop him from gaining limit in certain situations.

DK beats pit because his limbs outrange our moves, we can't kill him until high percents, he can kill us early, and edgeguarding him is tricky. And before you say he can't land, keep in mind that not many characters can land that well anyway. Yeah yeah, he also has ledge trouble or whatever, but don't most if not all characters?

I faced a roy recently and I now say it's a +1 our favor.

Kirby and palutena I could've sworn were originally a +1 our favor. My b.

Seems to me that you've never faced a shulk player in your life because he can wall us out, and outrange us, too. Also monados. Why does everyone ignore the power of the monado? Buncha jokas.

DDD is a similar case with dk only ddd can land better and it overall isn't as bad. Remember pit can throw out punishable moves, too.

Ike can not only outrange us, not only can he punish everything we can do, but he can also kill us off of a throw at 90 by the ledge with no rage. Our edgeguards aren't even anything super notable to begin with.

Pac is mostly due to the fact that I have no clue what I have to do in the mu, so I'll just take your word for it on the +1.

 

[LancerStaff]

DK beats pit because his limbs outrange our moves, we can't kill him until high percents, he can kill us early, and edgeguarding him is tricky. And before you say he can't land, keep in mind that not many characters can land that well anyway. Yeah yeah, he also has ledge trouble or whatever, but don't most if not all characters?

I faced a roy recently and I now say it's a +1 our favor.

Kirby and palutena I could've sworn were originally a +1 our favor. My b.

Seems to me that you've never faced a shulk player in your life because he can wall us out, and outrange us, too. Also monados. Why does everyone ignore the power of the monado? Buncha jokas.

DDD is a similar case with dk only ddd can land better and it overall isn't as bad. Remember pit can throw out punishable moves, too.

Ike can not only outrange us, not only can he punish everything we can do, but he can also kill us off of a throw at 90 by the ledge with no rage. Our edgeguards aren't even anything super notable to begin with.

Pac is mostly due to the fact that I have no clue what I have to do in the mu, so I'll just take your word for it on the +1.

He has some intangibility but his attacks still extend his hitboxes... Like Bowser. He and Bowser are practically the same character honestly. What's DK got over Bowser?

I've fought some decent Shulks and they've said he really can't do much in the MU... Pit by design does well against swordfighters. Wait outside of their range and whack them with DA whenever they commit to something. If they don't commit, you're either equally mobile (all things considered) and have a projectile or are more mobile then them (or they're Roy, lol.) Shulk can be more mobile then us but he's not very scary when he is. If he's in Buster or Smash just don't face him head on.

DDD... Really doesn't have anything. Gordos can be hard to deal with, especially offstage, but in every other situation he just flounders around. Not really sure what you're having a problem with.

Ike is like Shulk and other swordsmen. Don't press buttons and punish when he presses his. IMO Pit beats almost every swordsman and is even with the rest.

Pac is hard to explain... He's a bag of tricks with clear answers to every trick, but he just has a ridiculous number of them. Pit has a few unique ways around his tricks like arrows and GOs too.

 

[Sensane]

He has some intangibility but his attacks still extend his hitboxes... Like Bowser. He and Bowser are practically the same character honestly. What's DK got over Bowser?

I've fought some decent Shulks and they've said he really can't do much in the MU... Pit by design does well against swordfighters. Wait outside of their range and whack them with DA whenever they commit to something. If they don't commit, you're either equally mobile (all things considered) and have a projectile or are more mobile then them (or they're Roy, lol.) Shulk can be more mobile then us but he's not very scary when he is. If he's in Buster or Smash just don't face him head on.

DDD... Really doesn't have anything. Gordos can be hard to deal with, especially offstage, but in every other situation he just flounders around. Not really sure what you're having a problem with.

Ike is like Shulk and other swordsmen. Don't press buttons and punish when he presses his. IMO Pit beats almost every swordsman and is even with the rest.

Pac is hard to explain... He's a bag of tricks with clear answers to every trick, but he just has a ridiculous number of them. Pit has a few unique ways around his tricks like arrows and GOs too.

Where did bowser come into this? Also, HURTboxes.

Yes, punish when they commit, literally the basics of nearly every single character in the game. What makes pit so different? Dash attack is a good move, but nothing that stands out from any other dash attack in the game. It's still a dash attack.

Well, let's see: his range is better than ours, he has larger hitboxes in his attacks, and for the last time WE CANNOT GET THE KILL SO EASILY. What's so difficult to understand by "we cannot get the kill"?

Yeah, I'm literally with you there about swordsman MUs (except mk because I say we lose to him) but someone has to commit to something at some point. If it's ike, the worst that could happen is that he gets grabbed into a combo and maybe we get a lucky edgeguard. If it's us, he has dash attack, running up smash, fair, and bair, all of which are kill moves that can punish hard. And unlike us, ime can kill off of a throw combo, while our kill throw won't kill until around 155 by the ledge (assuming that there's no rage). It's one reason why we lose to MK.

All I know about the pac mu is that arrows can clank with his fruit and nair can break out of our combos. Maybe we could orbitar his trampoline jump?

 

[LancerStaff]

Where did bowser come into this? Also, HURTboxes.

Yes, punish when they commit, literally the basics of nearly every single character in the game. What makes pit so different? Dash attack is a good move, but nothing that stands out from any other dash attack in the game. It's still a dash attack.

Well, let's see: his range is better than ours, he has larger hitboxes in his attacks, and for the last time WE CANNOT GET THE KILL SO EASILY. What's so difficult to understand by "we cannot get the kill"?

Yeah, I'm literally with you there about swordsman MUs (except mk because I say we lose to him) but someone has to commit to something at some point. If it's ike, the worst that could happen is that he gets grabbed into a combo and maybe we get a lucky edgeguard. If it's us, he has dash attack, running up smash, fair, and bair, all of which are kill moves that can punish hard. And unlike us, ime can kill off of a throw combo, while our kill throw won't kill until around 155 by the ledge (assuming that there's no rage). It's one reason why we lose to MK.

All I know about the pac mu is that arrows can clank with his fruit and nair can break out of our combos. Maybe we could orbitar his trampoline jump?

Like I said, Bowser and DK are incredibly similar characters. I basically treat them the same when I play... We can kill fatties. Space out some Bairs or Fairs, grab > throw > gimp, punish things with our f10 and f6 smash attacks, or muscle through something with Electroshock. I don't think Pit's average killing ability effects these MUs much.

DA works so well because Pit's other tools work with it. Jab, dtilt and aerials keep people out and DG keeps people from shielding. Pit's DA is a biiiit more then just a DA though... It's not a crazy combo starter but it's definitely a top 10 DA. Comes out fast, good damage, great range, disjointed... It's an important tool because it outranges most character's midrange moves and is generally better then the ones it doesn't outrange.

Ike's options are generally quite sluggish... DA is f15 and Usmash is f25 which are both trapped behind a slow dash and a not so great DG means shielding is a good option. Aerial options are better but again are bogged down by slow speed and a terribly slow f7 jumpsquat. Fair is f19 and Bair is f14 effectively. I dunno what else to say, but judging from what you think of MUs against fatties and Ike I think you're not playing patient enough.

Pit's arrows are good at preventing Pac from charging in situations like after somebody throws or gets launched, while also being a long range option that can weave between hydrants and platforms. GOs stops z-drop aerial trickery cold because reflecting something powerful like a key means death at like 60%, though shoving him off the trampoline sounds like a really good idea too...

 

[Sensane]

Like I said, Bowser and DK are incredibly similar characters. I basically treat them the same when I play... We can kill fatties. Space out some Bairs or Fairs, grab > throw > gimp, punish things with our f10 and f6 smash attacks, or muscle through something with Electroshock. I don't think Pit's average killing ability effects these MUs much.

DA works so well because Pit's other tools work with it. Jab, dtilt and aerials keep people out and DG keeps people from shielding. Pit's DA is a biiiit more then just a DA though... It's not a crazy combo starter but it's definitely a top 10 DA. Comes out fast, good damage, great range, disjointed... It's an important tool because it outranges most character's midrange moves and is generally better then the ones it doesn't outrange.

Ike's options are generally quite sluggish... DA is f15 and Usmash is f25 which are both trapped behind a slow dash and a not so great DG means shielding is a good option. Aerial options are better but again are bogged down by slow speed and a terribly slow f7 jumpsquat. Fair is f19 and Bair is f14 effectively. I dunno what else to say, but judging from what you think of MUs against fatties and Ike I think you're not playing patient enough.

Pit's arrows are good at preventing Pac from charging in situations like after somebody throws or gets launched, while also being a long range option that can weave between hydrants and platforms. GOs stops z-drop aerial trickery cold because reflecting something powerful like a key means death at like 60%, though shoving him off the trampoline sounds like a really good idea too...

You make these mus sound so easy and that pits are at 20xx level of play at all times lol. Also I need to chill out more when having these matchup discussions

What I meant is that it can be difficult to space since some of his aerials technically outrange or moves, even though they aren't disjoints. Now I'll answer your question from earlier: what does dk have that bowser doesn't? Well, a few things: 1. DK can kill off of a throw, while Bowser can't do that (or at least not anymore). 2. Bowser's air mobility is pretty bad, while dk's is not only good, but better than ours. 3. Bowser doesn't have aerials that outrange us aside from maybe fair. Thinking about it now, I guess the one reason bowser isn't +1 is because of a lack of experience.

Nope. Still a standard dash attack. Most of them come out quick, some last longer, and others have more of a use (whether it be killing or combo starters or actually being somewhat safe on shield). Why is pit's so different?

Actually ike's fair is f12 and bair is f7. IDK where you got those misconceptions (you're right about eveything else though). I actually am being patient enough, and I don't lose to many (if any) ike mains with pit, so I think I'm playing it fine. Also forgot to mention his f4 jab and f9 counter. Besides, it's not like our aerials come out much faster. Fair is f11 and bair and dair are f10. Our only fast aerial is f4 (which is really fast for an aerial).

 

[InfinitySoul]

Why is Cloud even for DP and not for Regular Pit ?

 

[Sensane]

Side b. And also because arrow camping isn't a good idea in the matchup, so arrows are rather unecessary.

 

[LancerStaff]

You make these mus sound so easy and that pits are at 20xx level of play at all times lol. Also I need to chill out more when having these matchup discussions

What I meant is that it can be difficult to space since some of his aerials technically outrange or moves, even though they aren't disjoints. Now I'll answer your question from earlier: what does dk have that bowser doesn't? Well, a few things: 1. DK can kill off of a throw, while Bowser can't do that (or at least not anymore). 2. Bowser's air mobility is pretty bad, while dk's is not only good, but better than ours. 3. Bowser doesn't have aerials that outrange us aside from maybe fair. Thinking about it now, I guess the one reason bowser isn't +1 is because of a lack of experience.

Nope. Still a standard dash attack. Most of them come out quick, some last longer, and others have more of a use (whether it be killing or combo starters or actually being somewhat safe on shield). Why is pit's so different?

Actually ike's fair is f12 and bair is f7. IDK where you got those misconceptions (you're right about eveything else though). I actually am being patient enough, and I don't lose to many (if any) ike mains with pit, so I think I'm playing it fine. Also forgot to mention his f4 jab and f9 counter. Besides, it's not like our aerials come out much faster. Fair is f11 and bair and dair are f10. Our only fast aerial is f4 (which is really fast for an aerial).

Uh, I dunno... When I play I try playing optimally. I don't really see a point doing anything else. Against DK and Bowser that consists of never overextending ever.

Bowser can still kill off of a throw, it's just a slightly more narrow range. Pretty sure it still works on Pit. Air acceleration tends to matter more then speed, and Pit has higher accel then DK. Heck, Pit's walk is faster then all but seven character's airspeeds. (Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Roy, Wario, Mii Brawler, and ZSS. Take note guys.) Usually when somebody jumps at you, just casually walk away and DA/Arm the landing. If they get gud and attempt to mix up their landing timing then try and punish with something safer, or maybe just stuff the jump with an arrow.

Try and give me ten DAs better then Pit's.

With jumpsquat... Ike's is seven frames. Ike's jab is f4 but we have no reason to be in range of it 99% of the time.

Also counters besides Witch Time are garbage... A good Ike won't use his for anything but edgeguarding. Against Pit they're even worse, because he can outrange most of them, he can use a rising Dair or Nair and jump away before he gets hit (including Corrin though the spacing is tight if you plan to stay between the water pillars for a big punish), he can use a multihit and take a measly 7% for a sixty frame commitment, his grab game is good, and he can do anything up to a partly charged Fsmash on reaction. They're never a legitimate option.

Side b. And also because arrow camping isn't a good idea in the matchup, so arrows are rather unecessary.

Arrows are a looooot more then for camping. They're good for approaching Cloud, because you can make him stop charging while closing the gap. Against any other character if you launched him up high he could charge limit for free, but with Pit you can harass him all the way down. Arrows are really good for edge guarding, especially against Cloud because he has to travel in a straight line. They bait airdodges extremely well, and if they tank the hit they're basically back in the same position as before. They can stuff jumps on and offstage, they can be used while retreating to make space... They're incredibly versatile.

Electroshock is good but in most MUs it doesn't compare to that. Electroshock can't prevent limit gain like arrows can.

 

[Sensane]

Uh, I dunno... When I play I try playing optimally. I don't really see a point doing anything else. Against DK and Bowser that consists of never overextending ever.

Bowser can still kill off of a throw, it's just a slightly more narrow range. Pretty sure it still works on Pit. Air acceleration tends to matter more then speed, and Pit has higher accel then DK. Heck, Pit's walk is faster then all but seven character's airspeeds. (Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Roy, Wario, Mii Brawler, and ZSS. Take note guys.) Usually when somebody jumps at you, just casually walk away and DA/Arm the landing. If they get gud and attempt to mix up their landing timing then try and punish with something safer, or maybe just stuff the jump with an arrow.

Try and give me ten DAs better then Pit's.

With jumpsquat... Ike's is seven frames. Ike's jab is f4 but we have no reason to be in range of it 99% of the time.

Also counters besides Witch Time are garbage... A good Ike won't use his for anything but edgeguarding. Against Pit they're even worse, because he can outrange most of them, he can use a rising Dair or Nair and jump away before he gets hit (including Corrin though the spacing is tight if you plan to stay between the water pillars for a big punish), he can use a multihit and take a measly 7% for a sixty frame commitment, his grab game is good, and he can do anything up to a partly charged Fsmash on reaction. They're never a legitimate option.



Arrows are a looooot more then for camping. They're good for approaching Cloud, because you can make him stop charging while closing the gap. Against any other character if you launched him up high he could charge limit for free, but with Pit you can harass him all the way down. Arrows are really good for edge guarding, especially against Cloud because he has to travel in a straight line. They bait airdodges extremely well, and if they tank the hit they're basically back in the same position as before. They can stuff jumps on and offstage, they can be used while retreating to make space... They're incredibly versatile.

Electroshock is good but in most MUs it doesn't compare to that. Electroshock can't prevent limit gain like arrows can.

Bout time you showed up; you must have a lot going on in life XP

Ten DA's better than pit's: Sonic, MK, yoshi (it's pretty safe because its range is amazing), peach (can kill and has somewhat low endlag for a da), pacman, palutena, bowser jr (moving hitbox that last long and doesn't have too much endlag), greninja, and kirby (it's a nice anti air). Dash attacks in general aren't anything special except for mk and greninja (and possibly sonic and yoshi). Because his other tools work with it isn't a valid excuse to justify a move's use. Sure it has quite a bit of range, but t isn't safe, can't kill, can't act as a combo starter, and really why are you using it when you have nair and other aerials? Aerials can still be safe even though they're kinda slow.

Yes it has poor range, but we could go in for a grab and it could whiff, he could use a jab for a quick punish.

No, counters are not "garbage". You really need to understand the fundamentals of other chracters. It's called punishing what we do. And how is it "even worse" against pit? Dair and nair don't have the range to avoid counters (let alone kamui). It's not like everything we have has little endlag or massive range. Don't act like it's impossible for us to be punished.

Yeah, arrows are good for edge guarding, but no they are not good for approaching. A good cloud can see your arrows and punish with a jab, tilt, grab (to throw us off), dash attack, side b, aerial, basically anything. IDK why you think this.

I wish you wouldn't act like pit beats or goes even with everyone. He has his disadvantages and loses to some characters. I know you're not directly saying that, but it's evident the way you're communicating about this that you think that.

Edit: Wow I was rude quite a bit in this post. Sorry bout that fam. This past week has swamped me out lately and made me come across as very salty to those that don't deserve to be yelled at. My b. I never thought I'd have totell myself this: but Sensane put that thing away; there are children here.

 

[LancerStaff]

Bout time you showed up; you must have a lot going on in life XP

Ten DA's better than pit's: Sonic, MK, yoshi (it's pretty safe because its range is amazing), peach (can kill and has somewhat low endlag for a da), pacman, palutena, bowser jr (moving hitbox that last long and doesn't have too much endlag), greninja, and kirby (it's a nice anti air). Dash attacks in general aren't anything special except for mk and greninja (and possibly sonic and yoshi). Because his other tools work with it isn't a valid excuse to justify a move's use. Sure it has quite a bit of range, but t isn't safe, can't kill, can't act as a combo starter, and really why are you using it when you have nair and other aerials? Aerials can still be safe even though they're kinda slow.

Yes it has poor range, but we could go in for a grab and it could whiff, he could use a jab for a quick punish.

No, counters are not "garbage". You really need to understand the fundamentals of other chracters. It's called punishing what we do. And how is it "even worse" against pit? Dair and nair don't have the range to avoid counters (let alone kamui). It's not like everything we have has little endlag or massive range. Don't act like it's impossible for us to be punished.

Yeah, arrows are good for edge guarding, but no they are not good for approaching. A good cloud can see your arrows and punish with a jab, tilt, grab (to throw us off), dash attack, side b, aerial, basically anything. IDK why you think this.

I wish you wouldn't act like pit beats or goes even with everyone. He has his disadvantages and loses to some characters. I know you're not directly saying that, but it's evident the way you're communicating about this that you think that.

Pac and Jr's aren't that good... Kirby's is terrible and Peach and Palutena's have some niche uses, though you forgot Fox's.

DA is f7. Fair is f16 with jumpsquat, and Nair is f9. Pit's DA is good because of it's range and how it covers it's entire range quickly, it's disjoint, and damage. Just watch Earth vs. Tweek at EVO. I don't think anybody else could of juggled him like that.

Why are we missing a grab? If Ike had a better walk/foxtrot then yeah, we could be missing a bit but the punish isn't special for how little range it has. Since Ike's practically glued to the ground that really shouldn't be an issue.

No, I get how other characters work. Each and every one of them refuse to go for counters besides for edgeguards because they're trash. Earth, even with Corrin's prepatch counter, never used it. Ryo plays like five different characters with counters and never uses them. Pugwest never uses his counter. Every decent Shulk I've seen doesn't use their counters. The only characters who'll intentionally go for a counter are Bayonetta and Little Mac, and Mac only does because his landing options are also terrible. Even if we broaded the definition of counters to "laggy attack that beats other attacks" then Electroshock ain't even getting that much use because it's still too risky, and that's with it covering half the stage with potential hitboxes.

Why are you using arrows where Cloud of all characters can jab you? Use them at an effective range. When I say to approach with them I don't mean to let one loose at point blank.

Not sure what you're complaining about... You only put five characters as a -1 or worse. You're not that much better then me in that regard.

 

[Sensane]

At this point I'm done; it's blatantly obvious that you aren't gonna listen to what I have to say and if you have anything competent to say, I might oversee or just flat out ignore/deny it. IDK why we're still going on about this. As much as I wanna say something snarky like I normally do in conversations, given the context of the situation that wouldn't be appropriate for me to do.

I guess our views of matchups work differently from each other. I'm not sure how you look at matchups, but I constantly picture important situations where we need to consider what options we need to use and what options they have. I guess it may be also because I'm more of a readsy kinda player in neutral. But I would like to clear up just a few misconcpetions:

Why are we missing a grab?

Not so much miss, more like baited into doing so. We dash grab, he sidesteps in time, and jabs us (or maybe grabs us back).

Not sure what you're complaining about... You only put five characters as a -1 or worse. You're not that much better then me in that regard.

That was mostly a miswording on my part. I meant to say that you were acting like pit has little flaws and almost never get in the way of a matchup against another character, when anyone with a 0.1% understanding of the game would say that that's a bold faced lie. Or maybe it's because you're thinking frame perfect TAS level of play (based on your communications).

Sorry [if] I made this come across as an argument. You have your opinions, I have mine. Sometimes I struggle with that in conversations.

 

[LancerStaff]

At this point I'm done; it's blatantly obvious that you aren't gonna listen to what I have to say and if you have anything competent to say, I might oversee or just flat out ignore/deny it. IDK why we're still going on about this. As much as I wanna say something snarky like I normally do in conversations, given the context of the situation that wouldn't be appropriate for me to do.

I guess our views of matchups work differently from each other. I'm not sure how you look at matchups, but I constantly picture important situations where we need to consider what options we need to use and what options they have. I guess it may be also because I'm more of a readsy kinda player in neutral. But I would like to clear up just a few misconcpetions:


Not so much miss, more like baited into doing so. We dash grab, he sidesteps in time, and jabs us (or maybe grabs us back).


That was mostly a miswording on my part. I meant to say that you were acting like pit has little flaws and almost never get in the way of a matchup against another character, when anyone with a 0.1% understanding of the game would say that that's a bold faced lie. Or maybe it's because you're thinking frame perfect TAS level of play (based on your communications).

Sorry [if] I made this come across as an argument. You have your opinions, I have mine. Sometimes I struggle with that in conversations.

To me it feels more like there's things you're overlooking or misunderstanding. Things like Bowser's Uthrow > Uair still working or the value of counters...

There's really no point in Ike jabbing from a spotdodge or shield in the MU, honestly. A few frames usually doesn't make a difference, not so much that you'd settle for a jab over grab.

I'm not assuming TAS perfection, I'm assuming humanly optimal play. Generally when I play or discuss smash I try and think about what Earth would do or if I could somehow do it better. Again, I don't see a point in doing anything else. If there's a best way to do something, I do it. If there's some element of risk/reward then I go with what has the best ratio. When I see things like Earth making the Cloud MU look like it's +2 in Pit's favor just by basically spamming DA I'm going to try and replicate it.

 

[Sensane]

Okeeeeeeey, I'm gonna choose to ignore that last post and change the topic to avoid doing anything I'll regret.

So: has anyone seen suicide squad yet? I know critics don't like it, but I've heard people say that it isn't as bad as people say it is. TMNTSSB4 or The Merc have either of you seen it yet?

 

[The Merc]

Also counters besides Witch Time are garbage...

Roy and Corrin would like a word with you.

Ten DA's better than pit's: Sonic .

Am i going to have to question you there. Sonic's DA isn't that bad, but better then Pit's? Not in a million years

So: has anyone seen suicide squad yet? I know critics don't like it, but I've heard people say that it isn't as bad as people say it is. TMNTSSB4 or The Merc have either of you seen it yet?

No i haven't and i am very on the fence about it. I mean it looks pretty good (minus the Joker.)

But then again i haven't heard good things about it. Plus the Flash cameo makes me just hate the character more.

 

[LancerStaff]

Roy and Corrin would like a word with you.

No. They're terrible moves. Corrin's counter manages to be even less useful then most because it launches up and is way worse offstage because of it. Using it in any other situation against a decent opponent will, more often then not, get you hit harder then you would of hit them back.

For example, Pit runs at Roy. If Roy counters and Pit DAs then that's just a hair shy of 15%. If Pit baits a counter then a simple Dair > Uair combo is 20%. And that's with absolutely everything in Roy's favor here. If Pit instead jumped and Nair'd him that's not even a full percent of damage on Pit, and that's with a 60 frame commitment. If we had something more reasonable... Anything that does 6% really. Only 8% reward on the most damaging counter in the game, for a 60 frame commitment that basically sets yourself up for the strongest punishes in the game just short of fully charged smashes. You're probably thinking "but you're supposed to counter powerful moves." Well, you know what else takes 60 frames? Fully charging a smash attack. Try and read a smash and get read by the very thing you were trying to beat in the first place.

You want actual good counters? Try Bayonetta. Or anybody in Pokken besides Gengar.

 

[Sensane]

No no no no no no no PLEASE stop this at some point. As soon as I thought lancey boy and I were cool SOME people just had to start it back up again. Why can't we have one sane conversation about the game where we don't constantly debate with one another? Heck, these aren't even debates; they're just big **** contests. @CHOMPY please do something about this. I'm really getting annoyed.

 

[The Merc]

No. They're terrible moves. Corrin's counter manages to be even less useful then most because it launches up and is way worse offstage because of it. Using it in any other situation against a decent opponent will, more often then not, get you hit harder then you would of hit them back.

For example, Pit runs at Roy. If Roy counters and Pit DAs then that's just a hair shy of 15%. If Pit baits a counter then a simple Dair > Uair combo is 20%. And that's with absolutely everything in Roy's favor here. If Pit instead jumped and Nair'd him that's not even a full percent of damage on Pit, and that's with a 60 frame commitment. If we had something more reasonable... Anything that does 6% really. Only 8% reward on the most damaging counter in the game, for a 60 frame commitment that basically sets yourself up for the strongest punishes in the game just short of fully charged smashes. You're probably thinking "but you're supposed to counter powerful moves." Well, you know what else takes 60 frames? Fully charging a smash attack. Try and read a smash and get read by the very thing you were trying to beat in the first place.

You want actual good counters? Try Bayonetta. Or anybody in Pokken besides Gengar.

Oh.... well i thought they were good moves

Well my bad then ahah. I am sorry about that. I mean i would still use to from time to time as a like a surprise move. But would never spam it 100% and i do see where you are getting at.

No no no no no no no PLEASE stop this at some point. As soon as I thought lancey boy and I were cool SOME people just had to start it back up again. Why can't we have one sane conversation about the game where we don't constantly debate with one another? Heck, these aren't even debates; they're just big **** contests. @CHOMPY please do something about this. I'm really getting annoyed.

..... okay?

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't see the problem, Sensane... I'm using logic and hard data to back up my viewpoint. They're just ridiculously undertuned and nobody good at the game uses them.

 

[Sensane]

My point was everyone was being rude to one another for no reason. Thankfully it seems to have toned down now, so I have nothing more to complain about atm.

Edit: I might actually leave the boards for a while. No, not because of this, but because I've been having a very stupid week and a half and need to figure out some things. Sorry for being a brat for no reason; please do not view me as such as I'm not normally like this. In fact, I'm not like this at all. I just haven't caught a break in like a month.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

RIP us

RIP us indeed

 

[Final-Fortress]

RIP us indeed

I'm too busy in Voxel Hell to play Smash anymore anyways I don't even know why I still use this damn website.

 

[ReRaze]

You really need to understand the fundamentals of other chracters. It's called punishing what we do. And how is it "even worse" against pit? Dair and nair don't have the range to avoid counters (let alone kamui). It's not like everything we have has little endlag or massive range. Don't act like it's impossible for us to be punished

Actually Pit's full hop dair outspaces corrin's counter and countering nair does nothing as Lancer said since nair is a multihit that does so little damage.
Technically speaking Pit can be impossible to punish, so can alot of characters, you only get punished when you make mistakes. If you space things perfectly and don't take any risks you can't actually be 'punished'.