Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[ph00tbag]

Lucas's PKT2 is pretty good used on stage, and its startup and finish are great, but its definitely quite vulnderable to high priority moves in the middle portion of the attack. Furthermore using the thunderslide to aid in its use is sort of more of an aerial use, at least from my view. And if you use it on stage its easy for your opponent to predict the angle...sideways. And its not too hard time since you can pretty much see it coming.

It's harder to time if they make it so you can't see it coming. PKT1 is very easy to direct, and a good Lucas will be able to change the path very quickly to throw off your timing.

Plus I mentioned it before, but there are some pretty bad matchups for Lucas now with the whole grabbing thing. But at leasts hes not really nearly as bad off as Ness.

I count one against a character that he wouldn't really have a great time against anyway.

 

[manhunter098]

Could be Toon Link, but his up b on the ground really isn't very useful. I dunno.

It doesnt need to be particularly useful, just hard to punish, since in theory any move thats hard to punish is going to have some application anyways, if its a little damage dealt to your opponent and you can almost garuntee you wont get hit in return, then its a useful move. If it helps you escape safely and works almost every time its a useful move too. So all in all any hard to punish move is useful, though a useful move can still be easy to punish.

Either way it wont be TL because his up B on the ground is easy to punish.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Ok let's break up the hints here.
-Almost everyone think this character is strong (top/high tier)
-Not placing well in tournaments (so not MK or snake, just high tier)
-Great projectile game (by this point I'd say the only characters fitting the criteria so far is D3, Olimar, Pit, or Toon Link. Why not Zelda, Falco, or Pikachu? Because not everyone thinks those characters are strong. Falco maybe, but he doesn't fit that description at all like D3, Olimar, Pit, and Toon Link do.)
-Good recovery that is very hard to gimp or punish (That rules out D3, Olimar, and Pit. Toon Link is the only remaining choice.)
-Recovery move is useful on the ground (Toon Link fits here too)
-VERY annoying character (Toon Link IS extremely annoying. Frikken back air wall of pain )

So yeah, my bet is Toon Link.

flawed logic, everyone thought pikachu was the most buffed character for awhile (until they found gdubs)
d3 can make his recovery hard to punish

d3's recovery is not good on ground though so i'd rule him out

your two options are toon link and pikachu, who are both extremely annoying, with usable upbs on the ground (QAC is too good)

however, if it aactually say more useful on the ground then it is pikachu, because TL's upb attack on the ground isn't anything special

 

[manhunter098]

Toon Links Up B on the ground also easy to punish...which is what it says the move isnt. In fact it says nothing about it being useful on the ground at all...the only thing it says is that its hard to punish, though typically any hard to punish move is going to be useful in some cases.

 

[Steeler]

i like how it's more a discussion of who the next person will be than over the current person

 

[St. Viers]

because the BR is doing that for us, and leaving us this tricky little clues.

And everyone is convinced that if they guess correctly the BR will love them... >_>

@manhunter: I see what you did there. Nice

 

[goodkid]

-Zelda- recovery is pretty easy to punish, even with the added attack.
-Lucas- up-B recovery can be gimped and rope snake is in special situations
-Toon Link- up-B isn't the best
-Pit-has to be Pit with gliding, arrow looping, wing-cancel, pit's recovery is pretty hard to punish, and Pit is just doing okay in tournaments.

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

falco,

i dont know

a friend gave me the idea

 

[AlexX]

-Pit-has to be Pit with gliding, arrow looping, wing-cancel, pit's recovery is pretty hard to punish, and Pit is just doing okay in tournaments.

How is Pit's recovery hard to punish? And how is it useful on the ground?

 

[Kirby Redux]

I think our choices can be narrowed down to:

Fox(projectiles arent amazing, but recovery can be used well on an off stage, dunno about approaching)

Falco(better projectile than Fox, same recovery, approaching is same as Fox)

Zelda(amazing recovery, and it can be used on the stage to moderate effect. great projectiles, can be easy to approach, but D-smash can be spammed, making it hard)

Toon Link(great projectiles, not so great recovery, dunno about approaching)

Samus(maybe, semi-good projectile. her recovery isnt great, fairly easy to approach)

Pit(good projectile, great recovery off stage, but not much use onstage, medium for approachability)

Pikachu(good projectile, but recovery not great on stage, hard to approach)

Lucas(good projectiles, good recovery when combined with tether grab and PKT, somewhat easy to apporach)

Ness(same as Lucas)

Dedede(good projectiles, hard to approach, pretty good recovery - super armor (i think))

 

[chansen]

I'm about 99% convinced that it's Dedede. His projectile game is **** besides the fact that there's chances for Gordo and Waddle Doos. And his super armor makes him practically unstoppable. His weight combined with his grab range make him almost broken on ground game (ever seen a d3 shield grab ALL of your moves?)

And I doubt many broomers come here unless its to post new clues. If I was a broomer I'd stick to more intelligent threads.

 

[poorboy93]

I think our choices can be narrowed down to:

Pikachu(good projectile, but recovery not great on stage, hard to approach)

JUST pikachu, because of qac aka quick atack cancel... NO ONE listins, QAC is TOO GOOD

 

[waks]

Either Pikachu or Toon Link, imo.

 

[superglucose]

Honestly the character that jumps to mind is Wolf... but they already did wolf...

 

[Cliche-Guevara]

My vote goes to Zelda / Pika, both Up Bs can be used in multiple directions, both have good smashes and good projectile game. I lean towards Zelda because if the rankings list (Ankoku's Ranking List) is still semi-accurate, Zelda is not doing as well as Pika is. Everyone in the first few weeks was talking about how much better Zelda was, but she hasn' been performing up to that talk.

I vote Zelda.

 

[Kasai]

I think that this is going to be pikachu. A very annoying character to approach with the thunder bolts, a recovery that is hard to punish (toon link's is VERY EASY to punish because you can simply hit from above). And everyone assumed that pikachu would do good due to his intense buffs.

 

[DarkRenji]

I think that this is going to be pikachu. A very annoying character to approach with the thunder bolts, a recovery that is hard to punish (toon link's is VERY EASY to punish because you can simply hit from above). And everyone assumed that pikachu would do good due to his intense buffs.

Pikachu does fairly well in tournaments, Toon Link does not.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Dedede? the description seems to fit him, and his projectile game is pretty good. I'm just not sure of his tournament rankings

 

[DarkRenji]

Dedede is having good tournament places...

 

[St. Viers]

guys, I think it's TL... I'd call his z-air pretty un punishable, as a ledge-grab, or as a lagless attack from landing. (auto-cancels)

 

[Lib3r4t3]

When is the next update get posted anyway? Mondays? Sundays? Tuesdays?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Falco, Toonie, and Pit are my guesses this time.

 

[manhunter098]

QAC is pretty much pure amazingness. Ive yet to see any video in which a person using it can bring out its full potential either. Its amazingly difficult to do with consistency (as in throwing in attacks mixed with the proper angles) but once someone can start to pull it off like that, then Pikachu could jump to the top 3 or 4 characters in the game if hes being used by someone who can take full advantage of QAC.

D3's super armor isnt that amazing...you just have to hit him anytime after he is almost at the peak of his jump, and he goes flying, incredibly easy to stop if he uses it on the stage, since all you need is a disjointed hitbox that is above your character, and then you just use that attack underneath him, easy as pie to stop, heck you dont even need a disjointed hitbox if you can get the timing right. Then you can also approach from the side too, which makes it even easier. As long as you get him coming down...its not too difficult and therefore his recover used on the stage is easy to punish.


The Z-air with Toon Link is very interesting, I knew of it but Ive yet to hear it mentioned here. The trick is when solving these hints though, is to get inside the heads of the BRers and see the hint as they would see it. So the question is would they counder a Z-air a recovery, its sort of like calling Snake's f-air a recovery move, so I doubt it, but it definitely does help Toon Link to fit a bit better, but the issue arises when you say that its hard to punish on the ground...but you cant even use it on the ground, so I dont think that it applies.



@ Lib3r4t3, Im pretty sure its updated Tuesdays, but it might be Wednesday.

 

[St. Viers]

well, they said recovery, not upB.

If you read their previous hints, they are very specific--just read what they posted before this hint...so I'm thinking outside the box, for better of worse.

this would also help validate sheik, except that no one thinks she's good anymore >_<

 

[manhunter098]

Well the issue is how do you exactly use z-air on the ground since I dont think that it works, but thats just me. I dont doubt it might be considered a recovery move, but I dont think that they consider it to be a recovery move when its being used as a grab, and its easy to punish if you use it on the ground because if you miss, you are definitely open for an attack.

 

[BBQ°]

I think it's Pit because very few people enjoy playing against him.

 

[Adapt]

Toon Link or Zelda, (maybe pit, but not likely)

d3's up-B is not useful on stage, pikachu is doing good in tourneys, and no one else really fits the description

of course I haven't been able to guess any of the others except for snake, so I'm prolly wrong.

 

[One_With_Sumthing]

Let's review the hints.
Seems the top competitors are TL, Pikachu and Zelda...

This week's character is someone who nearly everyone thinks is a very strong competitor, but strangely isn't placing as well in tournaments as some would expect.
TL: Fits. [most think he's really good, yet not so good tourny results from what i hear]
Pikachu: [i wouldn't say nearly everyone thinks that he is a very strong competitor, so kind of doesn't fit; i'm told he's placing well in tournies.]
Zelda: [well, from what i know, many don't think zelda's very good at all. i'm not sure about the tourny results, anyhow.]
Perhaps nobody has tapped into the character's true potential yet? One way or another, this character can be frustrating to approach with the character's great projectile game, but is no slouch when you get in close.
TL: good projectile game, not-bad close game. good fit
Pikachu: Projectile game isn't great, it is good. good close game i suppose, no slouch indeed.
Zelda: Amazing projectile game, good close game, good fit.
Couple that with a recovery that is hard to punish, whether you use it in the air or on the ground, and you have a character that only very few would enjoy playing against.
TL: tether recovery=good fit; on the ground though... i'm starting to doubt.
zelda: i wouldn't say it's hard to punish. not at all.
pikachu: truly does fit well.
none of these characters completely fit, maybe it's another one? well, anyways.

 

[nukethemall73]

does it have to be ON the ground? cos TLs Z-air is hard to punish when used just before he hits the floor, as it has no lag frames.

 

[Kitamerby]

ZELDA ZELDA HOO. ZELDA ZELDA HOO.


Most likely Pit or Zelda. Wing Cancel is great, and a good Zelda will make the Farore's Wind unpunishable by not being predictable.

 

[menofuntall]

I really don't see what you're going to do with Pit's recovery on the ground. Fly around and become aerial bait? Not a particularly hard thing to punish.

 

[redgreenblue]

Let's review the hints.
Seems the top competitors are TL, Pikachu and Zelda...

This week's character is someone who nearly everyone thinks is a very strong competitor, but strangely isn't placing as well in tournaments as some would expect.
TL: Fits. [most think he's really good, yet not so good tourny results from what i hear]
Pikachu: [i wouldn't say nearly everyone thinks that he is a very strong competitor, so kind of doesn't fit; i'm told he's placing well in tournies.]
Zelda: [well, from what i know, many don't think zelda's very good at all. i'm not sure about the tourny results, anyhow.]
Perhaps nobody has tapped into the character's true potential yet? One way or another, this character can be frustrating to approach with the character's great projectile game, but is no slouch when you get in close.
TL: good projectile game, not-bad close game. good fit
Pikachu: Projectile game isn't great, it is good. good close game i suppose, no slouch indeed.
Zelda: Amazing projectile game, good close game, good fit.
Couple that with a recovery that is hard to punish, whether you use it in the air or on the ground, and you have a character that only very few would enjoy playing against.
TL: tether recovery=good fit; on the ground though... i'm starting to doubt.
zelda: i wouldn't say it's hard to punish. not at all.
pikachu: truly does fit well.
none of these characters completely fit, maybe it's another one? well, anyways.

toon link and zelda do not fit recovery at all. I honestly think Falco and Pikachu are the only two possible for this week's hint.

 

[Nelo Vergil]

I'd have to guess pikachu myself

 

[TehBo49]

I'm not sure whether it's Pikachu or Toon Link. Toon Link seems to fit, except his recovery not being punishable doesn't sound right. Pikachu fits the recovery part, but it says they're no slouch when you get close, which doesn't sound like Pika. Ironically, I main both of those characters.

 

[1312020]

Like many others, I think Falco is very likely. Pikachu... I'm not so sure about the projectile thing. It's good, but it never seemed THAT good. Zelda definitely has the projectile part, and her recovery can be decent and a little difficult to punish, but it's still pretty easy to if you can make a good guess. Toon Link... recovery good on the ground? I don't really think so in this case. Falco definitely seems like he has the strongest case, with Pikachu probably next. So confusing.

 

[ice_cream_man]

why not fox.. im goin with falco though, just wondering why no one is guessing fox.

 

[manhunter098]

Well Thunder is also a projectile you know. Even though it doesnt travel from Pikachu. Also Pikachu's close up game is made pretty good just because he has his awesome down smash (huge hitbox and priority, along with the duration), and his f-air and b-air, which are two awesome aerials in terms of priority and they come out pretty quick too.


@ Ice Cream: Fox's Laser has no hitstun...therefore it cant be used to stop people for approaching.

 

[St. Viers]

I still don't see how falco has an unpunishable recovery >_<

 

[biohazard930]

I'm about 99% convinced that it's Dedede. His projectile game is **** besides the fact that there's chances for Gordo and Waddle Doos. And his super armor makes him practically unstoppable. His weight combined with his grab range make him almost broken on ground game (ever seen a d3 shield grab ALL of your moves?)

And I doubt many broomers come here unless its to post new clues. If I was a broomer I'd stick to more intelligent threads.

Seriously? I've found his recovery very easy to punish. Super armor is not a factor because he has so much lag after he lands.

Aerial Dodge -> Punish

That has been my experience, but maybe the Dedede I play doesn't recover properly.

 

[biohazard930]

why not fox.. im goin with falco though, just wondering why no one is guessing fox.

That's because Fox's laser does not stun like Falco's does. Thus, Fox isn't terrible to approach.