Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Spurdo]

Methinks you're putting the classic on a bit of a pedestal there.

Even if that was true, that doesn't magically make the modern games unpopular. Because they are still very popular.

Sonic didn't just stop getting fans after Sonic and Knuckles.

Because they are up on a pedestal.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Because they are up on a pedestal.

Are they?

They don't seem that untouchable. A lot of people don't like them.

Even though Sonic 3 and Knuckles is nothing short of amazing.

 

[Spurdo]

Are they?

They don't seem that untouchable. A lot of people don't like them.

Even though Sonic 3 and Knuckles is nothing short of amazing.

Yes, they are. They are the successful and famous, and they are constantly referenced and they've been trying to bring Sonic back to his roots for years now. This is why we have Sonic Mania and classic Sonic everywhere Compared to everything else the franchise has spawned, they are untouchable. I wouldn't be surprised if they slowly phased Modern Sonic out, actually..

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yes, they are. They are the successful and famous, and they are constantly referenced and they've been trying to bring Sonic back to his roots for years now. This is why we have Sonic Mania and classic Sonic everywhere Compared to everything else the franchise has spawned, they are untouchable. I wouldn't be surprised if they slowly phased Modern Sonic out, actually..

Classic Sonic is back because those two are anniversary titles.

And that is a laugh. The amount of Sonic was never good people are rising.

The classics are just great games. Not untouchable in any way.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I disagree with the Mecha Sonic idea. The two robots are different, and while Mecha is arguably the cooler one to me and should appear more often, it's Metal that is the series' mainstay and thus the one that should be in Smash between the two Badniks.

And since Sonic and Metal Sonic are not the same character, I also disagree with the idea of having Metal be used in Classic Mode as the Metal Box counterpart. Not only does it go against the proper context of the fight (against a playable fighter under a permanent item effect), but it goes against what Metal Sonic is supposed to be like. He's not supposed to be extremely heavy and hard to knock around, drop like a stone in the air, and be slightly slower than Sonic. He's either roughly his equal or in some cases, superior (at a cost) such as Sonic Adventure 2 where he jumps higher and moves faster, but is harder to control due to his momentum.

The skin for Sonic Adventure DX shows that him being an alt for Sonic (or even a promoted one like Doc/Pittoo/Luci) would be acceptable. But not him being a skin for the Metal Box effect.

YMMV, of course. When I hear Metal Sonic, I hate seeing the crappy version from Sonic Heroes' multiplayer. I felt the proper Metal Sonic skin is more of a neat reference. Much like what is likely Dark Super Sonic and the white-colored skin similar to Silver. I get what you mean, though. I do have a good way to do both versions. Have the metallic version just called "Metal" Sonic to emphasize it's not the character. And call the real player Metal Sonic.

You do realize I'm not using the word meme in the 'internet meme' sense, right? That's not the real definition of the word, no need to get hostile about it friend.

Then you need to properly define it. It's on you to explain what you mean, because you're making zero sense.

I would say I have a pretty good reason to be dismissive of anything that isn't one of the classics. It's just that they're indisputably the best, the most popular, well received and recognizable things in the entire franchise, much more say than Sonic Adventure. The classics are what Sonic is about, and Shadow in no way represents them.

If your reasons are being extremely biased and ignoring the fact that multiple eras are popular, including both modern and classic, yes. We appreciate you arguing in good faith, but you aren't doing that. There's no legitimate reason to be dismissive in an argument, ever. That's something only people who doesn't want to participate in a friendly debate and acting holier than thou do.

What?

What's unclear to you? Legitimate question here. Let's see, you didn't define a word you are using so people went with the only legitimate definition for meme and responded accordingly. You were constantly explained why you are wrong on popularity. If you have questions, reply to the exact points being made, not just throwing out word-answers. For that matter, if you have nothing to actually say when you reply to me, don't post a reply. Either say something, or don't type something up if you have no response.

You also have to realize that as a mod, I may have to do something to keep this thread in check. Right now, you're causing issues by being extremely unreasonable. Dismissing arguments is pretty much up there in unreasonable conduct. You can simply not reply otherwise, and believe in what you believe, but if you want to continue to debate with us, I suggest you listen to our arguments and make a real attempt to refute them other than using the tactic of "my opinion wins automatically"(and don't even pretend you've made any real attempt otherwise, we can all see your posts very clearly). I'm sure you can see why users do not appreciate that they're wrong just because you say so.

 

[Spurdo]

Classic Sonic is back because those two are anniversary titles.

And that is a laugh. The amount of Sonic was never good people are rising.

The classics are just great games. Not untouchable in any way.

Classic Sonic is going to stick around long after the 25th anniversary, they've been putting him everywhere and he's rapidly diverging in to his own entity, that's how popular it is.

But regardless of any of this, the classics are what Sonic is famous. If they were to put another one in Smash it would only make sense to represent more of what he's famous for.

What's unclear to you? Let's see, you didn't define a word you are using so people went with the only legitimate definition for meme and responded accordingly. You were constantly explained that why you are wrong on popularity. If you have questions, reply to the exact points being made, not just throwing out word-answers. For that matter, if you have nothing to actually say when you reply to me, don't post a reply. Either say something, or don't type something up if you have no response.

You also have to realize that as a mod, I may have to do something to keep this thread in check. Right now, you're causing issues by being extremely unreasonable. Dismissing arguments is pretty much up there in unreasonable conduct. You can simply not reply otherwise, and believe in what you believe, but if you want to continue to debate with us, I suggest you listen to our arguments and make a real attempt to refute them other than using the tactic of "my opinion wins automatically"(and don't even pretend you've made any real attempt otherwise, we can all see your posts very clearly). I'm sure you can see why users do not appreciate that they're wrong just because you say so.

I was just confused because most of your post was trailing off about random Sonic things which aren't really relevant. I have responded to arguments, but I just see yours as confused and buried under random Sonic discussion. Sorry about that.

 

[Roberto zampari]

Speaking of Sonic characters being included, i bet that Silver the Hedgehog must be a Lucario Clone.
Is Silver the Hedgehog have a different moveset or just a Lucario Clone?

Emerl from Sonic Battle is a good inclusion.
Perhaps, it's a mix between Kirby and Ryu.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Speaking of Sonic characters being included, i bet that Silver the Hedgehog must be a Lucario Clone.
Is Silver the Hedgehog have a different moveset or just a Lucario Clone?

How on earth would that even happen?

They don't have similar abilities...

Or body shapes...

 

[Deleted member]

YMMV, of course. When I hear Metal Sonic, I hate seeing the crappy version from Sonic Heroes' multiplayer. I felt the proper Metal Sonic skin is more of a neat reference. Much like what is likely Dark Super Sonic and the white-colored skin similar to Silver. I get what you mean, though. I do have a good way to do both versions. Have the metallic version just called "Metal" Sonic to emphasize it's not the character. And call the real player Metal Sonic.

They don't need to.
The permanently giant and metal versions of the characters have the "Giant" and "Metal" label above their name in smaller font with only the G or the M being capitalized while the character's name is in a bigger font in all caps and has a giant black slash behind it, at least in Smash 4.

It'd be very easy to tell whether the "Metal Sonic" they're facing is Sonic with a permanent metal effect or his robotic counterpart with that setup.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They don't need to.
The permanently giant and metal versions of the characters have the "Giant" and "Metal" label above their name in smaller font with only the G or the M being capitalized while the character's name is in a bigger font in all caps and has a giant black slash behind it, at least in Smash 4.

It'd be very easy to tell whether the "Metal Sonic" they're facing is Sonic with a permanent metal effect or his robotic counterpart with that setup.

Well, I know a lot of people don't have good eyesight and stuff(you'd be surprised how bad it can get. There'll be at least one person that barely can tell the font difference. But yeah, agreed nonetheless). That said, they really should have the names said differently regardless to emphasis that one's a character. Like how Roy and Roy have uniquely said names.

But regardless of any of this, the classics are what Sonic is famous. If they were to put another one in Smash it would only make sense to represent more of what he's famous for.

Sorry, I can't agree with this at all. Sonic is famous for a ton of stuff. But it's the series as a whole that's evolved over and over. Sonic himself is known for immense speed and agility. And a badbutt attitude. Tails is not known for any of this. If we're trying to represent what the Sonic series is about, Tails wouldn't make sense in that regard. He's not that fast. His key stuff is not really relevant to the general gameplay of the series as a whole. He's a flying character who represents one of may potential gameplay styles. Also, if you honestly think the modern games don't have an immense effect on the Sonic series' infamous nature, you're living in a bubble(I apologize if this sounds harsh, but you really gotta stop dismissing the facts here). There's been 3 total animations based upon games. One is just a loose adaption of Sonic 2 at best. Another is a complete adaption of Sonic CD, but as a movie. And the last is Sonic X, one of the most popular overall and based upon the modern era. The only other show since X is its own unique spin-off similar to the modern era as well. Only two other animations exist, but one is just a spin-off that has nothing to do with anything, just another Adventures of Sonic The Hedgehog, but with a real plot, and the other is a darker version of the Sonic series that at best loosely adapts the first game to a degree. Realistically, the modern era is well known and famous too. Look at exactly what's in Smash to see. Both eras are heavily represented, because both are famous. The old gams put him on the map. The modern era has kept him relevant for years on end. It took forever for a new classic game, and they aren't even received super well outside of someone remaking Sonic 2 as a fangame and Sega allowing to to be properly released and the latest new games being produced. Generations is still a modern era game with a classic style, which isn't so much the old games as trying to remake the engine but having a somewhat weaker version of Sonic 2's mechanics(which is the main problem with the Advance and Rush games. They're modern era games, with an attempt at classic era gameplay, but did not succeed with the mechanics well. And obviously, you have Sonic 4, which was pretty bad. And this is the more main series games. Spin-offs that are completely non-canon have not gone well, but the modern era has gone moderately well, and you know, Sonic's modern design is quite infamous too).

Anyway, last but not least, you can't dismiss opinions that don't match your own, and expect people to take it lightly(never mind dismissing anyone counts as rudeness towards others and is against the rules. Long story short, we're trying to change your view so you understand this issue. I find it better than having to give out a warning or infraction because of rule breaking. Learning how to act more reasonably is also better). So if people constantly work on refuting your claims, you should've known better than coming into a topic with a disruptive and condescending message. If you didn't know better, then you do know. So I suggest you seriously start debating in good faith. So far, your arguments aren't even attempting to sound factual at all, just stating your sole opinion as fact. If somehow the modern era isn't popular at all, you need to back that up if you expect anyone to take your point seriously. And yes, this is both a warning and a suggestion as a mod; we expect better from those debating.

I was just confused because most of your post was trailing off about random Sonic things which aren't really relevant. I have responded to arguments, but I just see yours as confused and buried under random Sonic discussion. Sorry about that.

If you can't figure out which points to specifically reply to, it's probably better to not reply than tag me essentially for no reason. I don't need random notifications at all. My net is often bad enough as is, and every tiny little annoyance can be a big deal when combined together. Plus, you should never quote a person unless you have something substantial to reply with. It's pretty much spam.

 

[Spurdo]

Sorry, I can't agree with this at all. Sonic is famous for a ton of stuff. But it's the series as a whole that's evolved over and over. Sonic himself is known for immense speed and agility. And a badbutt attitude. Tails is not known for any of this. If we're trying to represent what the Sonic series is about, Tails wouldn't make sense in that regard. He's not that fast. His key stuff is not really relevant to the general gameplay of the series as a whole. He's a flying character who represents one of may potential gameplay styles. Also, if you honestly think the modern games don't have an immense effect on the Sonic series' infamous nature, you're living in a bubble(I apologize if this sounds harsh, but you really gotta stop dismissing the facts here). There's been 3 total animations based upon games. One is just a loose adaption of Sonic 2 at best. Another is a complete adaption of Sonic CD, but as a movie. And the last is Sonic X, one of the most popular overall and based upon the modern era. The only other show since X is its own unique spin-off similar to the modern era as well. Only two other animations exist, but one is just a spin-off that has nothing to do with anything, just another Adventures of Sonic The Hedgehog, but with a real plot, and the other is a darker version of the Sonic series that at best loosely adapts the first game to a degree. Realistically, the modern era is well known and famous too. Look at exactly what's in Smash to see. Both eras are heavily represented, because both are famous. The old gams put him on the map. The modern era has kept him relevant for years on end. It took forever for a new classic game, and they aren't even received super well outside of someone remaking Sonic 2 as a fangame and Sega allowing to to be properly released and the latest new games being produced. Generations is still a modern era game with a classic style, which isn't so much the old games as trying to remake the engine but having a somewhat weaker version of Sonic 2's mechanics(which is the main problem with the Advance and Rush games. They're modern era games, with an attempt at classic era gameplay, but did not succeed with the mechanics well. And obviously, you have Sonic 4, which was pretty bad. And this is the more main series games. Spin-offs that are completely non-canon have not gone well, but the modern era has gone moderately well, and you know, Sonic's modern design is quite infamous too).

Anyway, last but not least, you can't dismiss opinions that don't match your own, and expect people to take it lightly(never mind dismissing anyone counts as rudeness towards others and is against the rules. Long story short, we're trying to change your view so you understand this issue. I find it better than having to give out a warning or infraction because of rule breaking. Learning how to act more reasonably is also better). So if people constantly work on refuting your claims, you should've known better than coming into a topic with a disruptive and condescending message. If you didn't know better, then you do know. So I suggest you seriously start debating in good faith. So far, your arguments aren't even attempting to sound factual at all, just stating your sole opinion as fact. If somehow the modern era isn't popular at all, you need to back that up if you expect anyone to take your point seriously. And yes, this is both a warning and a suggestion as a mod; we expect better from those debating.

This is the same writing style that confused me in your earlier, you're trailing off in to terribly specific things that are not only inconsequential but nearly your entire paragraph is padded out with random information about Sonic games that ultimately makes your message vague and confusing. Why do I need to know about plot details of individual Sonic cartoons? Why do I need to know about fangames, or what is or isn't canon? How is any of this relevant? I'm not ignoring what everybody else is saying, in your case it sounds like you are having a completely different discussion with yourself. I really would like to understand your argument but your writing is completely unfocused.

Also, I wasn't referring to Sonic's characters traits, I was talking about the games that made him famous...because they are what he's known for having, his classic games.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, I know a lot of people don't have good eyesight and stuff(you'd be surprised how bad it can get. There'll be at least one person that barely can tell the font difference. But yeah, agreed nonetheless). That said, they really should have the names said differently regardless to emphasis that one's a character. Like how Roy and Roy have uniquely said names.

That would be by default since the way the announcer voiceclip for "Metal Sonic" would sound much different than the clips for "Metal" and "Sonic" back to back.

For example, the "Metal" clip has an inflection and a pause to lead to the character's name.
A clip for "Metal Sonic" would have neither an inflection or a pause between the two words since his name is typically said like it if it were a single word (i.e. "Metalsonic").

And hypothetically, there would be a more "dark" tone in the announcer's voice since Metal Sonic is an antagonistic character like Bowser, Ganondorf, or Dark Pit. You brought up the Roys, and that's a good example of what I mean. Compare the more heroic-sounding "ROY!" when you select the FE character to the more sinister-sounding "ROY...!" when selecting the Koopaling.


And I don't mean to be rude to people with poor eyesight, but....

If they can't tell the difference between Sonic with permanent Metal Box and Metal Sonic by the character render used AND from how separated the "Metal" label is from the name and its size, they probably shouldn't be playing the game in the first place.

Another is a complete adaption of Sonic CD, but as a movie.

Eh, if you're talking about the OVA, which I've seen dozens of times, it's its own thing.
The only similarities are that it involves Sonic facing off with Metal Sonic.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That would be by default since the way the announcer voiceclip for "Metal Sonic" would sound much different than the clips for "Metal" and "Sonic" back to back.

For example, the "Metal" clip has an inflection and a pause to lead to the character's name.
A clip for "Metal Sonic" would have neither an inflection or a pause between the two words since his name is typically said like it if it were a single word (i.e. "Metalsonic").

And hypothetically, there would be a more "dark" tone in the announcer's voice since Metal Sonic is an antagonistic character like Bowser, Ganondorf, or Dark Pit. You brought up the Roys, and that's a good example of what I mean. Compare the more heroic-sounding "ROY!" when you select the FE character to the more sinister-sounding "ROY...!" when selecting the Koopaling.


And I don't mean to be rude to people with poor eyesight, but....
View attachment 126517

If they can't tell the difference between Sonic with permanent Metal Box and Metal Sonic by the character render used AND from how separated the "Metal" label is from the name and its size, they probably shouldn't be playing the game in the first place.


Eh, if you're talking about the OVA, which I've seen dozens of times, it's its own thing.
The only similarities are that it involves Sonic facing off with Metal Sonic.

Now, now, let's not harp on people with eyesight problems. But joking aside, it wouldn't be an issue regardless.

It's not the only similarities, though. The whole nature vs machine conflict is major thing due to each world used. The time travel is replaced with dimensional travel, but heavily present. The princess is pretty much identical to Amy in a ton of ways, bar the name and species, of course. Same obnoxious attitude(moreso of Amy later, and possibly inspired her childish nature. I forget if the OVA came out before Adventure 1 or not). But it still overall adapts the main story, just in a unique spin. The point is Robotnik is causing trouble, only Sonic can stop him from destroying more than one world(he still does in CD, via different timelines, to a degree. It's a small stretch, but the idea is there), and fights Sonic is really powerful mechs. As for Tails and Knuckles, it's very clear the idea was to incorporate a little bit of Sonic 3 and Knuckles into it, but do note that CD and 3&K also happen really close to each other as well, some even arguing that CD is supposed to go right into it. There's no doubt that it's inspired by CD thought.

This is the same writing style that confused me in your earlier, you're trailing off in to terribly specific things that are not only inconsequential but nearly your entire paragraph is padded out with random information about Sonic games that ultimately makes your message vague and confusing. Why do I need to know about plot details of individual Sonic cartoons? Why do I need to know about fangames, or what is or isn't canon? How is any of this relevant? I'm not ignoring what everybody else is saying, in your case it sounds like you are having a completely different discussion with yourself. I really would like to understand your argument but your writing is completely unfocused.

Also, I wasn't referring to Sonic's characters traits, I was talking about the games that made him famous...because they are what he's known for having, his classic games.

And here's the problem with your logic. Most fans don't care what made his games famous in the first place. They like the character too. Sonic is recognized for his worldwide appeal, being everywhere. The games just helped that start, but there's way more to it than that. Yes, he is famous for having multiple animations, multiple characterizations that are mostly his traits. The Sonic games were famous for their speed platforming, not for being 2D or Classic. The 3D games continued the same thing the 2D games were famous for, so nothing really changed. In fact, they're not even really that different other than a lack of polish at best, and the classic gameplay is unpolished too anyway(especially the games that try to "remake" the classic gameplay. They did a horrible job with the physics and world design. While fun to some degree, it was more tedious. The 3D games actually had more good levels because it tried to stop emulating something they lost and be their own thing). Even Sonic 1 has issues. Sonic 2 has a few balance issues, etc. You're way overrating their overall impact. They didn't impact what everybody cares about Sonic. They definitely made an impact, but so did his later games. For better or worse. The classic games aren't all that matters, and the fact that tons of fans love the 3D games show that what you're talking about is nothing more than just personal bias. Let it go. Classic isn't as important as you make it out to be, and definitely only somewhat important to Smash. If you don't believe me, Sonic's own victory theme is taken from Sonic 06. Your view does not coincidence with the reality of how Smash is, the most relevant point to looking at how Smash stuff is taken into account.

You want to see a character make it into Smash from the Sonic series other than Sonic himself? Then you need to realize that the classic games will not dictate anything at all. There's a crapload of factors to consider. And that's the problem, you keep ignoring that it's not that black and white. Let's start with popularity. Shadow already won that. And being the best representation of the other infamous style(3D), who can blame him. If he wanted gameplay uniqueness? He has a truckload to go from. Modern and Classic characters. Tails does not auto-win that either. Shadow has just as much unique potential. Eggman is the only one not to start off as some kind of clone of Sonic when playable, and technically speaking, Amy is the first one to be entirely unique. Mostly cause of her car in Sonic R. She was the most different. Tails and Knuckles were clones of Sonic with a tiny slew of differences. Eggman's first gameplay has him nothing special in Sonic R(maybe close to a clone of someone else? I can't remember how unique he was. He might also be considered to be as unique as Amy was). Then Adventure 1 came along. Big was entirely unique. Gamma was too, obviously being a more playable version of the E-Series robot in Sonic & Knuckles. Rouge was just a swap of Knuckles, but Knuckles never dig till then, so in some ways, she was more famous for her treasure hunting. But also was the first secret agent character of note. Finally, we have to remember that Sakurai is picky on 3rd party characters. For all we know, nobody is playable outside of Sonic because he wants guest series to feel extra special, with one character each. I do not support this view as something he believes in, but is a factor that could be possible, and should not be ignored.

Anyway, now that you see some of the issues with why you can't choose on "cause it came from classic alone"(namely because it won't happen, as factors exist beyond that, and always will in reality).

Let me sum up the problems with your argument entirely;

"I believe only characters from the classic Sonic games should be in because they're my favorite." This is fine. In fact, you should've stopped here.

"How can anybody like someone outside of the classic games?" A bad argument, since everybody has a different opinion. Yes, some people don't like the 2D games. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. Albeit, the first set of main 2D games are a bit better than the newer 2D ones due to better polish and the fact Sega lost the original gameplay coding, and could only try to recreate it(and more or less failed to get it nearly as good). So I do think only trying the latest 2D games can potentially taint you, especially when the first 2 3D games are actually pretty good. Except Big(and I'm sure he has fans too, so of course, Your Mileage May Vary).

"People only know Sonic for his classic games." False. People know about way more than that, since he's influenced tons of stuff beyond games. He's been in commercials, has a movie, various animations, etc. He's worldwide famous for being himself more than just a few games. There's going to be tons of people that recognize him outside of simply being some popular games.

"He's only famous for his first few games." While slightly unique to what you're saying, that's exactly what it is. There were not many classic games to begin with. The game gear games did not go well, only the Sega Genesis/CD/console ones did. However, realistically, this isn't entirely true. This is what got him on the map. But the reality is, he stays on the map for soooooooo much more. When you realize that, you'll realize this is why he's a worldwide icon. People don't recognize what game he's from, they recognize the character and what he can do.

That said, you still haven't explained really well what you mean by a "Shadow meme". That came out of nowhere, and just seemed like a misunderstanding of what he's known for, which, if that's what you meant, yes, I do agree what he's known for can be a turn-off for people. The guns, swearing, etc. But then you realize that many actually know who he is, and like him for being unique, branching out really fast with unique abilities, really making the Chaos Emeralds far more relevant to the series than ever before, was the second character ever to get their own extremely unique spin-off game. Tails is the first. Before you mention Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine, that's based upon one of the animations, it's not related to game Robotnik at all. It's just a silly puzzle game retooled from Japan using some fun characters as a way to promote it. This happens sometimes.

So what did Shadow bring, exactly? The first dark hero. Actual gun gameplay that isn't mech-like shooting. Vehicles outside of racing games. Chaos moves. Full out character deaths. G.U.N. itself. Secret agents due to being the reason Rouge had to exist. Introducing full-out 3D Super Mode gameplay(Sonic Adventure 1 was pretty much no more than slightly different sidescrolling. Now, while it did introduce a 3D way to play Super Mode, it didn't have you floating in the air and control where you go, being more or less the same thing as Sonic running around with just a speed boost at best). So what is Shadow famous for? A lot. It ain't some meme, it's people liking bits and pieces of what he's known for.

Lastly, the Sonic series is not just one set of gameplay games, but a whole faction of tons of unique gameplay styles. If it stayed 2D, you'd have a point. But it didn't. 3D made a huge impact with Sonic Adventure 1, and that is a very infamous and well-liked game(and didn't age well, but not everybody agrees the original set of games did either, so there's that too).

But since you're defending the original characters(but giving no real reason to take them over Shadow at this point besides "cause classic"), why don't you do us the honor of explaining why they deserve the spot sooooo much more than the second most popular Sonic character that took the world by storm? We're all ears. Or in other words, start backing up your points, already. Like everybody else has. You were wrong about who was more famous. You completely dismissed everybody's opinions because it didn't match your own. You ignored the fact that it was more than Sonic's games that made him famous overall(being we're talking about putting characters into Smash, what they do and who they are is extremely relevant), and still haven't give one single reason to put some of the classic characters in. Why care about Tails, Eggman, Amy, Metal Sonic, or Knuckles? Give us reasons to do so. Seniority is not a reason that has ever mattered at any time(it doesn't matter even with Pokemon. See how often Mewtwo was cut. And Pokemon Trainer(Gen 1 based) and Ivysaur and Squirtle) for character selection.

 

[Deleted member]

Now, now, let's not harp on people with eyesight problems. But joking aside, it wouldn't be an issue regardless.

It's not the only similarities, though. The whole nature vs machine conflict is major thing due to each world used. The time travel is replaced with dimensional travel, but heavily present. The princess is pretty much identical to Amy in a ton of ways, bar the name and species, of course. Same obnoxious attitude(moreso of Amy later, and possibly inspired her childish nature. I forget if the OVA came out before Adventure 1 or not). But it still overall adapts the main story, just in a unique spin. The point is Robotnik is causing trouble, only Sonic can stop him from destroying more than one world(he still does in CD, via different timelines, to a degree. It's a small stretch, but the idea is there), and fights Sonic is really powerful mechs. As for Tails and Knuckles, it's very clear the idea was to incorporate a little bit of Sonic 3 and Knuckles into it, but do note that CD and 3&K also happen really close to each other as well, some even arguing that CD is supposed to go right into it. There's no doubt that it's inspired by CD thought.

Inspired by it and has some similarities that could be considered counterparts to each other, possibly.
But not a complete adaptation of it like you said it was by any stretch, though.

If it were a complete adaptation, it would be an exact retelling of the story from CD. (And wouldn't have such godlike side characters like Old Man Owl )

.....now I want to watch it again. I'll do that before bed.....

 

[Spurdo]

"I believe only characters from the classic Sonic games should be in because they're my favorite." This is fine. In fact, you should've stopped here.

"How can anybody like someone outside of the classic games?" A bad argument, since everybody has a different opinion. Yes, some people don't like the 2D games. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. Albeit, the first set of main 2D games are a bit better than the newer 2D ones due to better polish and the fact Sega lost the original gameplay coding, and could only try to recreate it(and more or less failed to get it nearly as good). So I do think only trying the latest 2D games can potentially taint you, especially when the first 2 3D games are actually pretty good. Except Big(and I'm sure he has fans too, so of course, Your Mileage May Vary).

"People only know Sonic for his classic games." False. People know about way more than that, since he's influenced tons of stuff beyond games. He's been in commercials, has a movie, various animations, etc. He's worldwide famous for being himself more than just a few games. There's going to be tons of people that recognize him outside of simply being some popular games.

"He's only famous for his first few games." While slightly unique to what you're saying, that's exactly what it is. There were not many classic games to begin with. The game gear games did not go well, only the Sega Genesis/CD/console ones did. However, realistically, this isn't entirely true. This is what got him on the map. But the reality is, he stays on the map for soooooooo much more. When you realize that, you'll realize this is why he's a worldwide icon. People don't recognize what game he's from, they recognize the character and what he can do.

Okay but the thing is I never said any of this, you are literally only having an argument with yourself at this point because those are your words, not mine.

Even Sonic 1 has issues. Sonic 2 has a few balance issues, etc. You're way overrating their overall impact. They didn't impact what everybody cares about Sonic. They definitely made an impact, but so did his later games. For better or worse. The classic games aren't all that matters, and the fact that tons of fans love the 3D games show that what you're talking about is nothing more than just personal bias. Let it go. Classic isn't as important as you make it out to be, and definitely only somewhat important to Smash. If you don't believe me, Sonic's own victory theme is taken from Sonic 06. Your view does not coincidence with the reality of how Smash is, the most relevant point to looking at how Smash stuff is taken into account.

I'm not, I'm really not. The classic age was the peak of Sonic's popularity, I don't think you can deny this. The classic games are constantly referenced, marketed and payed tribute to in every single Sonic game, they influence nearly everything good about Sonic games, they are how most people learned about Sonic in the first place, I don't even know how this is an argument. It feels like you're deliberately trying to undersell how these games preformed to make the later ones look better when I think it should be fairly obvious which set of games is influencing the franchise the most.

also, Sonic's theme victory theme, while taken from 06, is a remix of a theme from Sonic 3, and I highly doubt they picked that it because everybody just loves Sonic 06.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Inspired by it and has some similarities that could be considered counterparts to each other, possibly.
But not a complete adaptation of it like you said it was by any stretch, though.

If it were a complete adaptation, it would be an exact retelling of the story from CD. (And wouldn't have such godlike side characters like Old Man Owl )

.....now I want to watch it again. I'll do that before bed.....

I did admit I was wrong about it being a complete. >.< Or thought I did. Anyway.

Okay but the thing is I never said any of this, you are literally only having an argument with yourself at this point because those are your words, not mine.

Then I'll requote your entire set of messages a little later. It's pretty hard to see something different from what you said, though. Paraphrasing was how I did it, but it's very hard to deny you've been dismissing anything other than the classic era. And we've proven why it's not going to work for getting characters into Smash itself, which is the main thing we're talking about in the long run.

I'm not, I'm really not. The classic age was the peak of Sonic's popularity, I don't think you can deny this. The classic games are constantly referenced, marketed and payed tribute to in every single Sonic game, they influence nearly everything good about Sonic games, they are how most people learned about Sonic in the first place, I don't even know how this is an argument. It feels like you're deliberately trying to undersell how these games preformed to make the later ones look better when I think it should be fairly obvious which set of games is influencing the franchise the most.

So what? Doesn't matter the other games don't matter. Nor is it even the only thing referenced and important to Smash Bros. You know what else is constantly referenced? Modern games too. And I'd say considering Shadow was given his own game pretty quickly too, the modern games definitely influenced a lot. The dark age of Sonic was pretty much started since Sonic Adventure 1, and hasn't even stopped yet. The classic games haven't done an extreme amount to influence to the newer games beyond small references. Let's also remember that the only classic games todirectly influence an animation... are two, Sonic 2 and CD. Not classic games as a whole. The "classic" gameplay is just basically the Rush gameplay over and over. They haven't actually taken the original gameplay and re-used it. Only people who mod games have. What they did was poorly try to remake the original classic gameplay and failed. This is why the new engine is vastly different and why there's so many silly tricks you can do.

Also, the fact they have been modding Sonic generations to include Sonic 06 areas as well maybe tells us that the modern games matter to fans too. The problem is you're still acting like they aren't important at all. nobody is denying the classic games aren't the most important in the long run. But you're putting them up way too high, when it's a fact that not everybody views them as the best set of games. If you want a good example right here? Take me. I view Sonic 2 as the best of the classic era. I didn't think any other game really surpassed my other favorites. I really liked Sonic Adventure 1, 2, Shadow, Battle, and, Rush Adventure, 06. Yes, these are my favorites. Note, the modern era games aren't in a particular order, but I will admit I like 06 the least of those 5, but I still like it. Note how only one classic game is among them? It's because I don't view the rest of them in a high pedestal and actually like what I like, not making some general statement. I don't really enjoy Sonic 1 much at all. Sonic 3 & Knuckles I thought was meh at best. Sonic 3 was okay. Sonic & Knuckles was pretty decent. Sonic CD was decent. Tails Adventure was a little better, but I felt while fun, needed lots more polish and balance. Other classic era games(including Game Gear I didn't care for). To note, Sonic R and Fighters are pretty unique, but it depends if you consider them modern or classic, being they're both 3D spin-offs. I couldn't really enjoy Unleashed, any of the Advance games(as in Sonic Advance trilogy), found Rush mediocre if not outright unplayable at times, Colors to be okay at best, Generations decent(caveat, only played the DS version, so this may be a modern game I like a little more), and saw Lost World as a great comeback after all the weird games, finally fixing what they had in the original 3D era up to 06, where there was some uniqueness and not Sonic + Sonic.

Now see that paragraph for a second? Here's the point I'm making; Your opinion does not trump others. Get over it and stop pretending it doesn't. You have a right to your opinion. But you are blatantly trying to force it down people's throats and still dismissing with really bad excuses that the classic era is the only one that matters.

also, Sonic's theme victory theme, while taken from 06, is a remix of a theme from Sonic 3, and I highly doubt they picked that it because everybody just loves Sonic 06.

Which isn't what I implied. They picked it because it's from a modern game. Remember, Sega picked it, not Sakurai. They also picked the instrumental version of Sonic's main theme. And tons of modern game themes. They cared about the modern era too. Which is the actual point. If you can't see the fact that even Sega clearly considers the modern era important, then that's your problem, not everybody else's. And it is a problem. You're ignoring some huge facts about how influential multiple parts of the Sonic series are. You say the cartoons aren't that important? Well, guess what, it is. It actually is the sole reason Sonic has a much bigger interest in food and chili dogs. He's a character among so much stuff, that they've bothered to include his notable traits from more than that. Also, newsflash; people recognize Sonic because he's the blue hedgehog with attitude and speed. Not the games alone. The classic games didn't even influence "everything" as you seem to be claiming. Or is it "the most" instead? Cause neither really appears to be true. The tv shows, for instance, were influenced mostly by modern stuff, since two of the shows(Sonic SATAM and Sonic Underground) are not really influenced by the games at all so much as what the character inherently does. As noted, CD influenced one OVA. Sonic 2 influenced one show. All the modern games up to Shadow influenced Sonic X. Sonic Boom was influenced by its own game series, which are set in the modern era in general. If you want to talk about influence, realize that the entire franchise as a whole takes from practically everywhere, both eras included. So saying that classic influenced the most is an iffy statement at best. Etc I will gladly give you a more proper list of what influenced what spin-off games/series if you need it. But it's very clear by doing research that the classic games influenced only some of the stuff in the franchise as a whole. You can't really claim that classic games had immense influence and ignore stuff completely unrelated to it(I.E. Sonic X, which was blatantly about the modern era) and expect to be taken seriously, do you? This is what people mean by you putting it in a high pedestal. You're giving it way more credit than its due. And it deserves a lot, but not to that high of a degree. 60-70% at best, and that's being nice.

Lastly, this is about adding characters from Sonic to Smash. You gave a really bad reason to not put Shadow in(some statement that makes no sense, and then proceeded to completely shut out any positive about the modern era, dismissing tons of opinions). People refuted your claims over and over again. How influential the games are does not control much when it comes to Smash content(namely for 3rd parties). The fact it's a mix of modern and classic prove what you're saying is not even remotely true. Or at the very least, that only classic is really important. So I suggest doing a little research.

You may think I'm making tangents, but I'm telling you how things other than the classic era influenced the franchise. You should not be ignoring these points. In addition, you have completely ignored everybody's points about what's important to Smash as a whole Sonic-wise. Your claim is still "because the classic is the most important", but then... everything proves that it's not that black and white.

 

[Spurdo]

So what? Doesn't matter the other games don't matter. Nor is it even the only thing referenced and important to Smash Bros. You know what else is constantly referenced? Modern games too. And I'd say considering Shadow was given his own game pretty quickly too, the modern games definitely influenced a lot. The dark age of Sonic was pretty much started since Sonic Adventure 1, and hasn't even stopped yet. The classic games haven't done an extreme amount to influence to the newer games beyond small references. Let's also remember that the only classic games todirectly influence an animation... are two, Sonic 2 and CD. Not classic games as a whole. The "classic" gameplay is just basically the Rush gameplay over and over. They haven't actually taken the original gameplay and re-used it. Only people who mod games have. What they did was poorly try to remake the original classic gameplay and failed. This is why the new engine is vastly different and why there's so many silly tricks you can do.

Also, the fact they have been modding Sonic generations to include Sonic 06 areas as well maybe tells us that the modern games matter to fans too. The problem is you're still acting like they aren't important at all. nobody is denying the classic games aren't the most important in the long run. But you're putting them up way too high, when it's a fact that not everybody views them as the best set of games. If you want a good example right here? Take me. I view Sonic 2 as the best of the classic era. I didn't think any other game really surpassed my other favorites. I really liked Sonic Adventure 1, 2, Shadow, Battle, and, Rush Adventure, 06. Yes, these are my favorites. Note, the modern era games aren't in a particular order, but I will admit I like 06 the least of those 5, but I still like it. Note how only one classic game is among them? It's because I don't view the rest of them in a high pedestal and actually like what I like, not making some general statement. I don't really enjoy Sonic 1 much at all. Sonic 3 & Knuckles I thought was meh at best. Sonic 3 was okay. Sonic & Knuckles was pretty decent. Sonic CD was decent. Tails Adventure was a little better, but I felt while fun, needed lots more polish and balance. Other classic era games(including Game Gear I didn't care for). To note, Sonic R and Fighters are pretty unique, but it depends if you consider them modern or classic, being they're both 3D spin-offs. I couldn't really enjoy Unleashed, any of the Advance games(as in Sonic Advance trilogy), found Rush mediocre if not outright unplayable at times, Colors to be okay at best, Generations decent(caveat, only played the DS version, so this may be a modern game I like a little more), and saw Lost World as a great comeback after all the weird games, finally fixing what they had in the original 3D era up to 06, where there was some uniqueness and not Sonic + Sonic.

Now see that paragraph for a second? Here's the point I'm making; Your opinion does not trump others. Get over it and stop pretending it doesn't. You have a right to your opinion. But you are blatantly trying to force it down people's throats and still dismissing with really bad excuses that the classic era is the only one that matters.

You are yet again trailing off in to completely insignificant details. This does not require your opinion on every single individual Sonic game nor does it need to delve in to the semantics of game modding. Stay focused.

I literally never once said they were not important, you keep trying to establish that narrative when that was never once the point. I mean, is this you saying you've given up? Because you just agreed with what I've been saying this entire time.

Which isn't what I implied. They picked it because it's from a modern game. Remember, Sega picked it, not Sakurai. They also picked the instrumental version of Sonic's main theme. And tons of modern game themes. They cared about the modern era too. Which is the actual point. If you can't see the fact that even Sega clearly considers the modern era important, then that's your problem, not everybody else's. And it is a problem. You're ignoring some huge facts about how influential multiple parts of the Sonic series are. You say the cartoons aren't that important? Well, guess what, it is. It actually is the sole reason Sonic has a much bigger interest in food and chili dogs. He's a character among so much stuff, that they've bothered to include his notable traits from more than that. Also, newsflash; people recognize Sonic because he's the blue hedgehog with attitude and speed. Not the games alone. The classic games didn't even influence "everything" as you seem to be claiming. Or is it "the most" instead? Cause neither really appears to be true. The tv shows, for instance, were influenced mostly by modern stuff, since two of the shows(Sonic SATAM and Sonic Underground) are not really influenced by the games at all so much as what the character inherently does. As noted, CD influenced one OVA. Sonic 2 influenced one show. All the modern games up to Shadow influenced Sonic X. Sonic Boom was influenced by its own game series, which are set in the modern era in general. If you want to talk about influence, realize that the entire franchise as a whole takes from practically everywhere, both eras included. So saying that classic influenced the most is an iffy statement at best. Etc I will gladly give you a more proper list of what influenced what spin-off games/series if you need it. But it's very clear by doing research that the classic games influenced only some of the stuff in the franchise as a whole. You can't really claim that classic games had immense influence and ignore stuff completely unrelated to it(I.E. Sonic X, which was blatantly about the modern era) and expect to be taken seriously, do you? This is what people mean by you putting it in a high pedestal. You're giving it way more credit than its due. And it deserves a lot, but not to that high of a degree. 60-70% at best, and that's being nice.

Lastly, this is about adding characters from Sonic to Smash. You gave a really bad reason to not put Shadow in(some statement that makes no sense, and then proceeded to completely shut out any positive about the modern era, dismissing tons of opinions). People refuted your claims over and over again. How influential the games are does not control much when it comes to Smash content(namely for 3rd parties). The fact it's a mix of modern and classic prove what you're saying is not even remotely true. Or at the very least, that only classic is really important. So I suggest doing a little research.

You may think I'm making tangents, but I'm telling you how things other than the classic era influenced the franchise. You should not be ignoring these points. In addition, you have completely ignored everybody's points about what's important to Smash as a whole Sonic-wise. Your claim is still "because the classic is the most important", but then... everything proves that it's not that black and white.

Can you please just stay on topic your posts are becoming more about random Sonic trivia about completely insignificant details like chilli dogs and cartoons rather than the actual topic.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

When posting, please just reply to a user's points. You don't need to talk about he poster's actions. Note, as a mod, I do have to make sure to keep the peace, which is the reason I am allowed to do it, but only because I also never attack people either. I simply just act as a mod.

That said, if you still wish to continue, please repeat all your points clearly, and they will be responded to. If not, you're free to drop it as well.

Two notable things; talking about a user's points isn't off-topic. Talking about a user only is. If you wish to talk strictly about a user's actions, just PM them. It's easier to stay on-topic that way. Lastly, I do apologize for misinterpreting your points, which is why I've asked you to repeat them in this message.

Please do not reply to this post.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Impa will be in the next Smash if she's significant in Breath of the Wild. Am trying to spoil myself to see if she's in actually at the moment. Anyone interessted in helping / spoiling me out?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think Impa will be in the next Smash if she's significant in Breath of the Wild. Am trying to spoil myself to see if she's in actually at the moment. Anyone interessted in helping / spoiling me out?

Just be sure to use spoiler boxes in such a situation. The game gets released this Friday after all, and early spoilers are never good.

 

[Roberto zampari]

Anyone liked the classic mini games like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms and Coin Launcher?
Which game(s) you want for the Smash Bros 5? (port or new)

Seriosuly, Board the platforms (from SSB64) needs more love.
And i prefer the N64 Break the Targets.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Anyone liked the classic mini games like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms and Coin Launcher?
Which game(s) you want for the Smash Bros 5? (port or new)

Seriosuly, Board the platforms (from SSB64) needs more love.
And i prefer the N64 Break the Targets.

The differences between N64 and Melee's BTT are... pretty much nada. It's more or less the same thing. Albeit, Melee did have some more difficult ones overall in comparison.

BTP was incorporated into Race to the Finish in Melee to free up a slot for a new mini-game.

I think they should come back. RttF and BTT especially. If they're going to make Classic a bit shorter, only two is fine. If it's as long as Wii U's version, have Grab the Trophies again.

The issue with BTT is there is too many characters to work with. And you can't go by "franchise" either, due to how unique characters are. The generic ones were not great, but they worked in Brawl. The issue is that was the only mini-game in Brawl's classic.

Coin Launcher was okay, but they can easily improve it. Yes, I do like the lottery from Melee more. Also, I feel Target Blast should stay too. It's actually pretty fun figuring out the best route for each character and gaining points. It works well for a generic thing.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Anyone liked the classic mini games like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms and Coin Launcher?
Which game(s) you want for the Smash Bros 5? (port or new)

Seriosuly, Board the platforms (from SSB64) needs more love.
And i prefer the N64 Break the Targets.

I was pretty surprised they took out Break the Targets. I hope they bring it back.

 

[Deleted member]

You know what I'd rather not have return?

Any challenges that require doing something with the entire roster.
Seriously, those challenges get more and more tedious the more the roster grows.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

You know what I'd rather not have return?

Any challenges that require doing something with the entire roster.

Wouldnt you think whoever directs Smash next cutting all that would be a bit of a long shot?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You know what I'd rather not have return?

Any challenges that require doing something with the entire roster.
Seriously, those challenges get more and more tedious the more the roster grows.

It's one thing when you simply just have to complete a certain game mode with everyone. However, being required to clear a certain "difficulty level" with everyone can potentially be a problem when you look back at Smash Wii U's challenges. Clearing All-Star on Hard with everyone is just pure murder, and the same can also be said for clearing Classic at intensity 7.0+ with everyone.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

It's one thing when you simply just have to complete a certain game mode with everyone. However, being required to clear a certain "difficulty level" with everyone can potentially be a problem when you look back at Smash Wii U's challenges. Clearing All-Star on Hard with everyone is just pure murder, and the same can also be said for clearing Classic at intensity 7.0+ with everyone.

Oh, now I get it.

I have to agree. Those were pretty hard challenges, but if my fiancée was able to clear all of them, I'm not complaining.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Oh, now I get it.

I have to agree. Those were pretty hard challenges, but if my fiancée was able to clear all of them, I'm not complaining.

Still, when you look back at Brawl and Smash 3DS, their harder challenges are less absurd, and don't require you to complete the hardest difficulty levels more than once.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Still, when you look back at Brawl and Smash 3DS, their harder challenges are less absurd, and don't require you to complete the hardest difficulty levels more than once.

True, but the cutting of absurd challenges is going to come with some kind of price, don't you think?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

True, but the cutting of absurd challenges is going to come with some kind of price, don't you think?

For my tastes, I can fully tolerate the grinding challenges, as there's no real challenge to completing them, and they'll eventually be completed as time passes. And as annoying as it was to get all the custom special moves, Mii outfits, and Mii headgear, those challenges are more tolerable than being required to do something like clearing Classic at intensity 9.0 without losing a single life.

I even posted my own concept on the challenges for the next Super Smash Bros. installment...

Spoiler

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Oh, and it sure would be nice if the CPU went back to their behavior in Melee. Many-a night I can't block out the moment I derped myself during that unlock battle against where I was and did side smash on her but psychically whipped out her goddamn counter and killed me. Now, Melee's A.I. was pretty manageable since they liked doing certain things oftentimes. Now CPUs are impossible to cheat out a victory this time.

I'll come out and say it: for the theoretical Smash I think there should not be unlock battles for secret characters. I don't know about y'all sugar pies but I should not have to fight bots, especially level 9 bots, to unlock anyone. I don't care if this breaks tradition, unlock battles should be no longer...

 

[Delzethin]

I'll come out and say it: for the theoretical Smash I think there should not be unlock battles for secret characters. I don't know about y'all sugar pies but I should not have to fight bots, especially level 9 bots, to unlock anyone. I don't care if this breaks tradition, unlock battles should be no longer...

Personally, I think the whole idea of secret characters in fighting games is kinda antiquated. Word spreads so fast on the internet nowadays that "hidden" content doesn't stay hidden for long.

What I'd do instead is have the entire roster be available from the get go, but then have things like alternate costume sets be unlocked through certain conditions. So for example, if you beat Classic on 7.0 or harder as Ike, you'd unlock his Vanguard class costume.

 

[Deleted member]

If all characters are unlocked from the start (and thus given official reveals before release), kiss any future token "surprise characters" in the vein of these three goodbye.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Unlockable characters is a tradition. It's just not fun anymore if you get every character from the start.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There's more fun int he single player if you get something to unlock. Characters is one of the best one because you have to meet the criteria first, making it a neat challenge in itself. It's basically incentive. Stuff like Trophies don't mean as much, although Music and Stages, being they either affect gameplay or might be a song you like, are fairly good.

I don't mind it either way, and tradition doesn't mean much to me. I just find it overall more fun to unlock something other than a trophy by going through Classic more than once. Being Classic got more tedious and boring due to either a lack of multiple kinds of mini-games, or mini-games entirely in Brawl and 4 does not help this. If they reinvent Classic mode to some degree, or at least make it fell less tedious as it has been now, it'd be a bigger difference.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I have one thought about Classic mode, which takes a page from Smash 3DS...

Note: The following is for solo mode play.

• Stage 1 (all routes): 1 vs. 1
• Stage 2 (all routes): 2 vs. 2
• Stage 3 (all routes): 1 vs. 1
• Stage 4 (blue route): 3 vs. 1 (giant)
• Stage 4 (green route): 2 vs. 1 (giant)
• Stage 4 (red route): 1 vs. 1 (giant)
• Stage 5 (all routes): 1 vs. 1
• Stage 6 (all routes): 1 vs. 1 (metal)
• Stage 7 (blue route): Fighting Alloy Team (10 opponents)
• Stage 7 (green route): Fighting Alloy Team (20 opponents)
• Stage 7 (red route): Fighting Alloy Team (30 opponents)
• Stage 8 (all routes): 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 vs. 1
• Stage 9 (blue route; intensity 0.0 - 7.9): Master Hand
• Stage 9 (black route; intensity 3.0 - 4.9): Master Hand & Crazy Hand
• Stage 9 (black route; intensity 5.0 - 5.9): Master Hand & Crazy Hand + Master Edges + Master Shadow + Master Core
• Stage 9 (black route; intensity 6.0 - 6.9): Master Hand & Crazy Hand + Master Beast + Master Edges + Master Shadow + Master Core
• Stage 9 (black route; intensity 7.0 - 7.9): Master Hand & Crazy Hand + Master Giant + Master Beast + Master Edges + Master Shadow + Master Core
• Stage 9 (black route; intensity 8.0 - 9.0): Master Hand & Crazy Hand + Master Giant + Master Beast + Master Edges + Master Shadow + Master Fortress + Master Core

The blue route is the easy route; green is normal; red is hard. Under normal conditions, taking the harder routes can make the opponents more resistant to knockback, but you'll receive better rewards and more points for clearing them. In stage 4, however, the harder routes give you less teammates to help you fight the giant opponent. Similarly, the harder routes in stage 7 require you to take down more opponents in a single match.

For stage 9, the blue route is available at intensities 0.0 through 7.9; the black route is available at intensities 3.0 through 9.0, and you're forced to take that route at intensities 8.0 and above.

When facing Master Hand and Crazy Hand together, Crazy Hand will usually drop at least one Maxim Tomato while performing the Finger Bomb attack. That can potentially come in handy when facing the higher intensity levels, so saving Crazy Hand for last would be recommended, as Master Hand won't give you any kind of healing items at all with his attacks.

In regards to Master Core, a change would be implemented in that you have to completely defeat Master Hand and Crazy Hand first. One of the hands will then change into Master Core; during that point, 5 more minutes are added onto the timer, and you're given a Heart Container so that you can start the Master Core fight at 0% damage. You're given 3 more minutes on the timer and another Heart Container for the Master Fortress phase.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If all characters are unlocked from the start (and thus given official reveals before release), kiss any future token "surprise characters" in the vein of these three goodbye.

Is that really true?

They can still be seen as surprises.

Sakurai seems to highlight the fact that they're NES superstars as more of a surprise then their unlockability.

 

[Deleted member]

Is that really true?

They can still be seen as surprises.

Sakurai seems to highlight the fact that they're NES superstars as more of a surprise then their unlockability.

The point of the surprise is that you literally did not see them coming at all going into the game blind outside what Sakurai/Nintendo tells you.
They weren't given any sort of (OFFICIAL) exposure prior to the release (outside of teasing in the case of Duck Hunt) and stick out compared to the rest of their fellow newcomers for a variety of reasons to where they'd be completely unexpected before encountering them.

The Ice Climbers were specifically added in Melee as NES superstars (and by the way, G&W literally CAN'T be an NES star ) and arguably Pit in Brawl as well. They were not meant to be surprises, hence they were revealed before release and on the starting roster.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Just be sure to use spoiler boxes in such a situation. The game gets released this Friday after all, and early spoilers are never good.

Spoiler: As you wish

I don't really support Impa any more unless it's Hyrule Warriors Impa. She's old again in BotW, and looks like she has no important role like in Skyward Sword which is a disappointment. I was hoping to see more SS Impa styled character development for her, but that stopped in HW. Breath of the Wild MIGHT have a young Impa again in the '100 years a go' scenario, but as of now I'm not expecting it. She's just Kakariko Village's old hag who knows a thing or two. Not Goddess Hylia's Chosen Warrior to protect her mortal form and first guardian of the Triforce.

As a matter of fact, I expect the same Zelda roster as we had in previous games maybe with some updates to Ganondorf and Toon Link.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

It's pretty easy to unlock characters, so there's no reason to make everyone a starter. I'd rather that all custom moves are made available from the start instead.