First, that is totally wrong. Cloud was very controversial because he has no relation to Nintendo (most everyone I talked to noted it was controversial when it was announced). This was a huge complaint about the character. He was never complained about for being strong. The biggest sore spot characters for being good were Bayo and Rosa. For reference, there had never been a poll that had Sheik high for being strong. If you think people are complaining only about these characters for being strong, you're kidding yourself.
Second, we don't actually know who won the ballot because results were never given. You have this nice big asterisk saying "realizable" a term with no definition. Bayo was also only top in Europe, the smallest region and I don't think she ranked in US. The results are questionable given these facts.
There are people who are upset about any cut, but Snake was expected. I think this whole "Everyone misses Snake," only happened after the game came out. Most everyone expected him to go because he didn't fit in.
I said years ago there was a diminishing return with guest characters, and I think its starting to sink in. Just some quick points
Cloud and Bayo were popular, yes, but the issue is that there was just as much dissatisfaction, moreso I would argue for Bayo. Back when characters like Megaman and Pac-Man were being added, there was little to no backlash (Heck, even a fuddy-duddy like me was fine with Pac-Man). But the thing is we are seeing negative responses to the new characters. This wasn't the case before.
The other people is "Who do you add." I argued on Source Gaming that a big reason for the bulk of guest characters as DLC was due to them being more interesting and may be an easier swallow for 5 bucks. The problem is that they have kind of gone all out and there is nothing left. Think about this: what character could you add after adding Cloud? You added a character no one could have thought possible. At this point, there isn't much place left to go. "But what about Shovel Knight." It's too late. You jumped the shark. You can't really top yourself now. Guest characters are one part marketing but you will never get something as interesting as "Cloud is in Smash." This is why Bayo was met with more negativity then other guest characters. At this point, there is no where left to go but down.
Interesting. Thanks for posting that. I haven't kept up with Pokemon since last year and I don't watch shows. I don't have a dog in the fight so it doesn't matter to me either way. I know Sun and Moon will get something since it sold so well. Decidueye made sense as it was an evolution, it has synergy with Greninja and Charizard and its easy to see what it could do. It also has the Z Move.
You claim I'm basing my article on this one poll but I wrote like 6 or 7 paragraphs. If you want to attack my argument, look at the whole thing. Not one snippet.
The whole "They were voted because people consider them broken" isn't true. The only characters this applies to is Rosa and Bayo and that's more how they win. Sheik, ZSS and Diddy were never as high. Also keep in mind these two were the highest alongside Corrin. Also, Corrin was considered a strong character but he wasn't disliked because he was strong? Kind of moving the goal post.
First, holy hell man, PICK A COLOR THAT ISN'T RED. I've been gone for two years and you people haven't figured out that red is hard to see on black? Golden's post are fine because he uses yellow. Please, stop using colors that are hard to read for pete sake.
The only thing I want to say is I always find it funny people try to redefine what Smash is. The first two game didn't have guest characters. Despite people like me complaining, there are have been over 50 Nintendo characters in Smash and there have only been 7 guest characters. The game is never going to be "Video Game Icons," because most of the cast are Nintendo characters and a lot of them are pretty obscure (most people didn't know who Shulk was, for instance). This idea that Smash is about "icons" is ludicious given the shear number of Nintendo characters and the legal impossibility of it being about icons. And this is the crux of my argument. Smash is about Nintendo All Stars. It shouldn't be redefined. You can have guest but they way there are done now wont work going forward.
"Cloud was very controversial" Says who? Sure, there was backlash, but EVERY character in the goddamn game gets backlash from a vocal minority, Cloud was no exception, especially considering how Final Fantasy in a very popular franchise and Cloud being one of the most popular characters FROM said franchise. If they had Cecil, Terra or Bartz instead, would you still whine? Cloud got in because of fan demand for a Final Fantasy character, Cloud was the most popular choice in the ballot when it came to Final Fantasy characters. Simple as that
"If you think people are complaining about these characters being strong, you're kidding yourselfs" MMMMM I absolutely ADORE how you say people want them cut, don't say how many people you asked nor how many people agreed with you and claim this. Oh, and Sheik and Diddy were VERY disliked early in Smash 4. And LOADS of people groaned at Meta Knight's return before it was confirmed he'd be rebalanced. Cut him then too
"We don't know who won the ballot! MUH RESULTS" Have you SEEN how toxic this fandom is? Not showing the results was good, as otherwise, if someone suggests a character you don't like, you could go "NOBODY WANTS THAT TRASH YOU MORON LOOK AT THE BALLOT RESULTS" and knowing the fanbase, lots of people would do that
"Results are questionable" Considering how you're implying the ballot was rigged, I think you have lost the right to be taken seriously when mentioning the ballot now
"People only complained about Snake being cut after the game was released"
Gee. It's ALMOST like it wasn't confirmed he'd be cut until AFTER the game was released!
"Third Party characters are only going to go downhill from now"
This isn't entirely false, there aren't many super iconic characters left to add for Smash, but that's not a reason to cut them. Otherwise we should cut some Zelda characters, no major characters left to add there, so why bother keeping them?
"Bayonetta got backlash because she was after Cloud as he couldn't be topped"
This only proves that cutting Cloud isn't a good idea, as Bayonetta was surprising for being unexpected from the hardcore fandom, due to her being niche there. And again, toxic fanbase whines about anything they can whine about
"I wrote 6/7 articles about it, read it all!" You ALSO wrote (or spread, can't remember) an article explaining that Shovel Knight is actually a bad game and people were being tricked into liking it when voting for Shovel Knight was a bandwagon.
"I find it funny people are trying to redefine Smash" Nintendo dropped the "Nintendo all stars" thing a LONG time ago pal, and they stopped having Smash be about Nintendo's all star cast when they made Melee, as again, Roy debuted in Melee. Therefore Roy singlehandedly proves you wrong despite being in a game before guest characters appeared
Before I begin, I want to say I really like this comment. This is the kind of discussion I want. Kudos to you.
You have a good point, but where I disagree with that I think you are looking in a theoretical sense rather than what is actually going on. I'll summarize why
- Unlike Brawl and Smash 4, there is no one popular guest character
- Nintendo is producing more IPs than they have in the past. Since Splatoon, Pikmin was the last IP which featured characters and worlds. Nintendo has made other IPs, but they were usually like Wii Sports or the Touch Generation games. Nintendo is also making ARMS and will probably have more IPs at E3 given how they are talking (speculation on my part).
- With guest characters, we could be reaching negative utility. Although some have claimed the "character I want to be cut" for Cloud and Bayo are due to them being good, the same wasn't true of other good characters besides Bayo. There was still plenty of controversies when the characters were announced
On the guest character, I think its fair to say that not all guest are created equally. Snake was a character we expected to be cut, and most people didn't seem to mind (it's only after he's gone that fans actually say "What, we love Snake now"). It's not a surprise that Sonic and Megaman were the most popular characters. Megaman has only been successful on Nintendo systems and Sonic games sell the best on Nintendo systems. This also explains why Cloud was controversial. He's doesn't have the same connection as Megaman and Sonic do.
You mention too many Nintendo series being niche and unsuccessful, but let's look at the third party series. First, Sakurai is Japanese and is a big name in that country. He doesn't speak English, so there is a barrier to working with western companies (and he wants to communicate with the creators). Regardless, most western third party games don't do that well on Nintendo system. Outside of Overwatch, there doesn't seem to be a lot of overlap for Nintendo fans and most western series (but feel free to disagree). So let's focus on Japan for now.
Tekken isn't very popular on Nintendo systems and the series is on the decline. Dragon Quest is unpopular in America. YokaiWatch is VERY unpopular in America. Bomberman games don't sell that well. Most of Sega's series are in the ditch as are Konami's. The only Japanese series that does well worldwide and is popular with Nintendo fans seems to be Monster Hunter. So in terms of picking the best character, there's not a lot here. And again, after doing Cloud, these characters character going to be people excited. Moreover, there are only so many mega iconic characters out there.
But also consider your audience. You mention that there would be diminishing returns for Nintendo characters, and that is true of new characters regardless. The jump from 12 to 25 was bigger than 35 to 55. But if the thought is Nintendo will run out of characters, I direct you to Blizzard's all star game, Heroes of the Storm.
The game has more characters than Smash (60+) from only 4 series. Nintendo has a plethora of series to use. "But these characters are obscure." Not to your target audience. The fans of Smash Bros know Nintendo. This is why people aren't usually upset over new characters unless they are a clone or if there is too much from on series. Conversely, we have seen fans be upset if the guest character doesn't fit the mold.
Perhaps you could argue my suggestions too extreme. OK. Take one guest character from the last two games and add one more. Make them feel special and different. This is another way to reach the same goal.
I will say that in terms an ONLY Nintendo game, you have to remember that Nintendo is the point of Smash Bros. Akuma isn't symbolic of Tekken. Predator isn't symbolic of Mortal Kombat. You mention there won't be a Nintendo character as big as Sonic or Cloud, but there also isn't a guest character that would be as big as Cloud or Sonic. Those days are gone. If there isn't a new guest character fans can get excited over, does it need to continue? I would argue no. Again, the point of Smash is Nintendo, so moving in that direction can never be moving backward. You are never moving away from makes Smash, Smash.
"There is no popular guest character" Almost like speculation is over until a new game is announced. Not to mention Cloud got in due to popularity despite seemingly no demand for him. Did YOU see Bayonetta, Ryu or Cloud requests? No? Then that means you're either not looking in the right places or those people aren't speaking up due to people like you acting like this about third party characters
"there were still plenty of controversies" Actually. Y'know what, I want you to get a LARGE amount of people who still complain about the third party characters being in solely for being third party. At this point you're pulling it out your ass. Not to mention Doctor Mario got controversy, Roy got controversy, Ganondorf got controversy, Meta Knight got controversy, Rosalina got controversy, etc.
"People only now are saying they like Snake"
You're ****ting me. I remember a SIGNIFICANT amount of people here wanting Snake to return. Expecting a character to be cut =/= wanting a character to be cut. I expect Inklings to be added in Smash. However, I do NOT want them in Smash. Oh, and Cloud was a Final Fantasy character. Final Fantasy was ALL about Nintendo back in the day
"Tekken is on decline" I haven't been keeping up with Tekken but people are VERY excited for Tekken 7. Especially it's Guest character
"Dragon Quest isn't popular in America"
You said "Let's focus on Japan"
"Bomberman doesn't sell well!"
You haven't seen the sales for Super Bomberman R, have you? It's also gotten patched up to fix criticisms people had and more people are interested due to this
"these characters character going to be people excited" lmao
"Consider your audience"
You don't get business. Nintendo ALREADY panders to their fanbase. Look at the sheer quantity of characters, items, stages, music tracks and more that are solely Nintendo based. That's more than enough
"Heroes of the Storm"
That's a game made exclusively by Blizzard and completely different than Smash. Not to mention focusing on die hard Nintendo fans loses the casual audience. New, casual fans won't care about the new Excitebike character, they don't know him, and if you focus solely on the die hard fans, you alienate the casual fans, which Sakurai has been very vocal against.
"Akuma isn't symbolic of Tekken, etc." That's true. However, you REALLY don't get guest characters. A guest character draws in new fans. If Akuma wasn't in Tekken but rather, a different Tekken character, hype would be SIGNIFICANTLY lower. Not that the other character isn't popular, but it's goddamn Akuma. Guest characters draw in people who otherwise wouldn't care for the game. Having a character pandering to Nintendo fans instead of a third party character doesn't draw more people in to the next Smash.
"You're never moving away from what makes Smash Smash". Adding third party characters isn't moving away from it either. Here's a comparison. Apple pie typically has apples and cinnamon. That makes apple pie what it is. But what if you were eating an apple pie and there's some cranberries or raisins in it there are nice. Sure, it's different from the one you used to know, but you're still eating apple pie and are enjoying said apple pie
