Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luminario]

The thing is, in the case of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, the game greatly improves Battle Mode, but it heavily ruined the character stat balance that Mario Kart 8 got right.

I'd hate to see a dilemma like that occur with a Smash Wii U port, where buffs AND nerfs are made. Instead, focus on buffing the fighters who are struggling the most, and don't nerf anyone.

Wait, how did Deluxe ruin the stat balance? It was bad to begin with in 8 with entire lobbies of Mortons and Dry Bowsers with the Falcon Kart.

 

[SlickWylde]

Super Smash Bros: Deluxe makes a lot of sense. Which means that won't be the name

For some reason, I don't feel like this is gonna happen, but I still think Vaanrose had* a point like 3 years ago when he called this very thing happening. It makes the "Smash 6" on Bandai Namco employees link'd in page make a whole lot of sense.

But if there is anything announced, I doubt it will be till at least 2018. Wanna make a bet on it? I'll eat my shoe if I'm wrong

 

[Bowserlick]

I'd hate to see a dilemma like that occur with a Smash Wii U port, where buffs AND nerfs are made. Instead, focus on buffing the fighters who are struggling the most, and don't nerf anyone.

Nerfs are necessary. The top of the cast can do too many things, have too many useful tools and/or have very little weaknesses that matter.

In order to preserve the variety of playstyles, nerfs and buffs are vital to character design.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Wait, how did Deluxe ruin the stat balance? It was bad to begin with in 8 with entire lobbies of Mortons and Dry Bowsers with the Falcon Kart.

Have you seen how imbalanced the character stats are in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe? Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach have a higher stat total than everyone else in the game, while the characters with the lowest stat totals are "all" lightweights.

Mario Kart 8 made sure that everyone shared the exact same stat total (excluding the mini-turbo stat, which decreased as the weight stat increased). And I can confirm that heavyweights don't always get their own way in that game, as I have lost to some very good lightweight and middleweight players throughout my online racing career, even when I used a heavyweight character. In fact, it's the lightest characters in the game who can achieve the best possible stat totals with their vehicle combinations, since the heavier characters have weaker mini-turbo stats.

In Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, however, it's pretty much a Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach show, as no one else has the stat totals to compete with them.

Nerfs are necessary. The top of the cast can do too many things, have too many useful tools and/or have very little weaknesses that matter.

In order to preserve the variety of playstyles, nerfs and buffs are vital to character design.

Still, the focus should be to improve the low-ranked fighters first, because you're not exactly helping them with their problems if you're only nerfing the higher-ranked fighters.

Once the lower-ranked fighters have been improved, "then" the focus can turn to nerfing the higher-ranked fighters.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I just want Top Tier Diddy a 3rd time. Don't care for much else

 

[Luminario]

Have you seen how imbalanced the character stats are in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe? Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach have a higher stat total than everyone else in the game, while the characters with the lowest stat totals are "all" lightweights.

Mario Kart 8 made sure that everyone shared the exact same stat total (excluding the mini-turbo stat, which decreased as the weight stat increased). And I can confirm that heavyweights don't always get their own way in that game, as I have lost to some very good lightweight and middleweight players throughout my online racing career, even when I used a heavyweight character. In fact, it's the lightest characters in the game who can achieve the best possible stat totals with their vehicle combinations.

In Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, however, it's pretty much a Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach show, as no one else has the stat totals to compete with them.



Still, the focus should be to improve the low-ranked fighters first, because you're not exactly helping them with their problems if you're only nerfing the higher-ranked fighters.

Once the lower-ranked fighters have been improved, "then" the focus can turn to nerfing the higher-ranked fighters.

They did that with the stats? That's a terrible idea, what were they thinking?
And I agree, they should definitely focus on buffing the bottom tiers first. It's a better idea to give bad characters more options first instead of giving good characters less options.

 

[FunAtParties]

It was never outright stated, one can infer that is the case by how it was worded in the Nintendo Direct by the translator.

"Among the negotiable and realizable characters, Bayonetta was the number one choice worldwide."

She may have not won outright, but they thought Bayonetta worked the best for them.

Thank you, for at least addressing the possibility that Bayonetta may not have won the ballot. Lots of scenarios at play, and the wording was iffy. Every time I bring it up, people act like it's an impossibility. Very annoying.

Originally my stance was a firm "no," but based on the fact you're basically the 3rd person to ask, go ahead.

I don't get why you would say no to this.

 

[N3ON]

Well, Bayonetta did win the ballot. The purpose of the ballot was to get a character included in the game, not to rack up the most votes. Some people believed the two to be inherently intertwined, but clearly they weren't, as Bayonetta obviously did not receive the most votes in general. Getting votes was important, but the "winner" of the ballot is the character who gets included. In this case the ballot winner was a popular, obtainable character who made the most sense to the powers at be.

If getting the most votes was the only qualification for winning, you guys would have a different president.

 

[Bowserlick]

Still, the focus should be to improve the low-ranked fighters first, because you're not exactly helping them with their problems if you're only nerfing the higher-ranked fighters.

Once the lower-ranked fighters have been improved, "then" the focus can turn to nerfing the higher-ranked fighters.

You can do both for release. Nerfing good characters helps worse characters by giving them a weakness to go after in a fight. Many top characters do not have crippling weaknesses.

 

[Opossum]

Have you seen how imbalanced the character stats are in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe? Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach have a higher stat total than everyone else in the game, while the characters with the lowest stat totals are "all" lightweights.

Mario Kart 8 made sure that everyone shared the exact same stat total (excluding the mini-turbo stat, which decreased as the weight stat increased). And I can confirm that heavyweights don't always get their own way in that game, as I have lost to some very good lightweight and middleweight players throughout my online racing career, even when I used a heavyweight character. In fact, it's the lightest characters in the game who can achieve the best possible stat totals with their vehicle combinations, since the heavier characters have weaker mini-turbo stats.

In Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, however, it's pretty much a Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach show, as no one else has the stat totals to compete with them.



Still, the focus should be to improve the low-ranked fighters first, because you're not exactly helping them with their problems if you're only nerfing the higher-ranked fighters.

Once the lower-ranked fighters have been improved, "then" the focus can turn to nerfing the higher-ranked fighters.

Kind of beside the point, but you shouldn't use quotation marks to indicate emphasis. It's incorrect form.

That being said, many times nerfing a certain threat can cause a buff in a lower ranked character.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You can do both for release. Nerfing good characters helps worse characters by giving them a weakness to go after in a fight. Many top characters do not have crippling weaknesses.

The funny thing is, there might be people who want Rosalina nerfed, but she's not even a top 5 contender right now. And at this point in time, it's only really the Luma who needs nerfs, due to the fact that some of its attacks (such as a sweetspotted u-tilt, and the u-air) have high base knockback values that can take advantage of the rage mechanic.

Kind of beside the point, but you shouldn't use quotation marks to indicate emphasis. It's incorrect form.

What's the proper way to indicate emphasis then?

That being said, many times nerfing a certain threat can cause a buff in a lower ranked character.

It does depend on what gets nerfed though.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll eat my shoe if I'm wrong

How many shoes do you have, Slick?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'll eat my shoe if I'm wrong

Only if the condiments are Mayo, Relish, Mustard, Ketchup, Ranch Dip, Sour Cream, and Whipped Cream.

 

[Luminario]

Kind of beside the point, but you shouldn't use quotation marks to indicate emphasis. It's incorrect form.

That being said, many times nerfing a certain threat can cause a buff in a lower ranked character.

I feel that really depends on the character. I play and a lot and their movesets feel fundamentally flawed in one way or another. I get what y'all are saying though with doing both buff the bad and nerf the good.

I just want Top Tier Diddy a 3rd time. Don't care for much else

Plot twist: and switch tier places in the next Smash

What's the proper way to indicate emphasis then?

I believe you either bold or italicize. CAPS LOCK also works but is more like shouting through text than emphasis.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Have you seen how imbalanced the character stats are in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe? Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach have a higher stat total than everyone else in the game, while the characters with the lowest stat totals are "all" lightweights.

Mario Kart 8 made sure that everyone shared the exact same stat total (excluding the mini-turbo stat, which decreased as the weight stat increased). And I can confirm that heavyweights don't always get their own way in that game, as I have lost to some very good lightweight and middleweight players throughout my online racing career, even when I used a heavyweight character. In fact, it's the lightest characters in the game who can achieve the best possible stat totals with their vehicle combinations, since the heavier characters have weaker mini-turbo stats.

In Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, however, it's pretty much a Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach show, as no one else has the stat totals to compete with them.

I knew something wasn't right when those metal abominations were suddenly unnaturally good.

Hope the rebalancing for Smash wouldn't be as bad.

 

[Opossum]

The funny thing is, there might be people who want Rosalina nerfed, but she's not even a top 5 contender right now. And at this point in time, it's only really the Luma who needs nerfs, due to the fact that some of its attacks (such as a sweetspotted u-tilt, and the u-air) have high base knockback values that can take advantage of the rage mechanic.



What's the proper way to indicate emphasis then?



It does depend on what gets nerfed though.

As mentioned, generally italics or boldface is the proper way to denote emphasis.



As far as balancing goes, I just want Little Mac and Pac-Man buffs.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Honestly, I really do wonder how Smash for switch would be balanced. Im sure online mode would be a factor with just a tad of competetive gameplay.

As for desire over predictions, please buff Roy, Falco, and Samus.

I mean I can enjoy them at this point, but being actually half decent instead of terrible would be nice.

And Little Mac and the two Pits while we're at it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I knew something wasn't right when those metal abominations were suddenly unnaturally good.

Hope the rebalancing for Smash wouldn't be as bad.

Same here. At the same time though, I do dread about if the nerfs are more extreme than what the people really asked for. I don't think anyone ever asked for Falco to get nerfed as heavily as he did.

As far as balancing goes, I just want Little Mac and Pac-Man buffs.

I can't say much for Little Mac, since he's meant to have an atrocious recovery. PAC-MAN could afford to receive buffs for his direct attacks though, since their damage and knockback statistics can be rather underwhelming, while Bonus Fruit can be quite predictable when used from a distance.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

In terms of buffs, I'd really like Ike to move up a lot in the list but aside from that Little Mac, Roy, Shulk need to move up and Diddy, Bayonetta, and Cloud need to take some nerfs.

 

[Deleted member]

Just make everyone good.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Wolfie557]

The ballot was a fraud.

Bayonetta shouldn't have happened

Even if this is a joke, why the hell do I disagree with 80% of what you say?

I think our tastes and reasonings are basically the oppositete...

Sakurai even notes she was top 5 among the regions. She was only number 1 in the UK region.

It makes sense, being she's a European character in design.

...the UK region?
The UK doesn't like Nintendo aside from the few. (Ik you mean Europe but UK is basicallY Fifa & Cod & recent popular games like Overwatch, minus the once in a while Pokemon or Mario Kart orr....Wii Fit)

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

It was kind of surprising to see that Bayonetta got more votes in Europe than Rayman.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It was kind of surprising to see that Bayonetta got more votes in Europe than Rayman.

I'm not.

Bayonetta is REALLY popular there.

Rayman ironically has a bigger following in the US than Europe.

 

[Delzethin]

Honestly, I really do wonder how Smash for switch would be balanced. Im sure online mode would be a factor with just a tad of competetive gameplay.

Honestly? Probably more of the same. A combination of online reactions and competitive results, with both nerfs and buffs as needed. Every patch for the Wii U and 3DS versions have improved the overall balance, so all a theoretical Switch version would need to do is continue that.

I would not be surprised if the Switch version's initial release hits Diddy, Bayo, and Cloud pretty hard. Though, Cloud more because of how dominant he is in low level play than anything else. Kind of like how Mac was toned down early on.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Cloud could indeed very well be the ballot winner. Just realized how much sense that makes, cause even during Brawl speculation, people where massively asking for Cloud. King K.Rool was also popular of course, but Cloud was probably voted for more.

So when was it said that Bayonetta wasn't the ballot winner? Never recall to read such a quote.

No.

Cloud was NOT the winner but was influenced by the ballot iirc. He was added as there were LOADS of requests for a Final Fantasy character. Cloud was the most requested Final Fantasy character not to mention how he's the most iconic character in the franchise, so he was added after Sakurai noted that

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Suggesting Cloud was the ballot winner is an attempt at bargaining reality.

Cloud started development before the ballot ended and looking at the dates, Bayonetta was probably started afterwards.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I want Jigglypuff buffed.

 

[Curious Villager]

Wasn't it datamined that two additional character's where in the works until another one came along by a patch afterwards at some point after the Lucas, Roy & Ryu wave?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Wasn't it datamined that two additional character's where in the works until another one came along by a patch afterwards at some point after the Lucas, Roy & Ryu wave?

Pretty much, which points to work on Corrin and Cloud most likely starting around that time.

 

[Curious Villager]

Pretty much, which points to work on Corrin and Cloud most likely starting around that time.

Yeah, I can't remember whether that last slot was added before or after the ballot closed though.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Bayo and Corrin char slots were added into the game a good 6 months before the ballot ended. They were modeled off ZSS and Ike respectively.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) November 3, 2016

According to KuroganeHammer, Bayo and Corrin had been worked on 6 months before the ballot ended.

Ryu, Lucas, Roy, Cloud and Bayo's data were added in 1.0.6. Corrin was in 1.0.8.

Point of interest: Fire Emblem Fates was released in Japan the same month as 1.0.8.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Bayo and Corrin char slots were added into the game a good 6 months before the ballot ended. They were modeled off ZSS and Ike respectively.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) November 3, 2016

According to KuroganeHammer, Bayo and Corrin had been worked on 6 months before the ballot ended.

Ryu, Lucas, Roy, Cloud and Bayo's data were added in 1.0.6. Corrin was in 1.0.8.

Corrin seems more similar to Marth than Ike if anything.

Also, some people believe that K. Rool might have had a disadvantage as DLC because he couldn't have been modeled based off anyone, but there is no confirmed or logicalevidence that characters like Bayonetta and Corrin are anything other than 100% made-from-scratch unlike say, Lucas (Brawl assets) or Roy (obviously based off Marth being a semi-clone)

 

[Deleted member]

Bayo and Corrin char slots were added into the game a good 6 months before the ballot ended. They were modeled off ZSS and Ike respectively.

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) November 3, 2016

According to KuroganeHammer, Bayo and Corrin had been worked on 6 months before the ballot ended.

Ryu, Lucas, Roy, Cloud and Bayo's data were added in 1.0.6. Corrin was in 1.0.8.

Point of interest: Fire Emblem Fates was released in Japan the same month as 1.0.8.

Not surprised was based on .

I remember having read some SourceGaming article citing that:

was modeled from (obviously).
was modeled from (obviously).
And was modeled from .


Remain and . Were there some pieces of information concerning their models too?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Not surprised was based on .

I remember having read some SourceGaming article citing that:

was modeled from (obviously).
was modeled from (obviously).
And was modeled from .


Remain and . Were there some pieces of information concerning their models too?

I thought Ryu was a photoshopped Little Mac?

 

[Kirbeh]

I thought Ryu was a photoshopped Little Mac?

No that's Shulk.

 

[Luminario]

Is it really that unlikely to some of you lot that Bayonetta was one of the more popular characters on the ballot? She had a highly praised Wii U exclusive near the time the ballot opened and people like her as a character. Even if there were a few other characters above her in places other than Europe her uniqueness, popularity, and the way she fits into Smash blows any other potential character out of the water.

 

[Kirbeh]

Is it really that unlikely to some of you lot that Bayonetta was one of the more popular characters on the ballot? She had a highly praised Wii U exclusive near the time the ballot opened and people like her as a character. Even if there were a few other characters above her in places other than Europe her uniqueness, popularity, and the way she fits into Smash blows any other potential character out of the water.

^This. Though I'd still contest the last bit since that's pretty much subjective.

 

[FunAtParties]

Is it really that unlikely to some of you lot that Bayonetta was one of the more popular characters on the ballot? She had a highly praised Wii U exclusive near the time the ballot opened and people like her as a character. Even if there were a few other characters above her in places other than Europe her uniqueness, popularity, and the way she fits into Smash blows any other potential character out of the water.

Throughout the voting process, her popularity came and went. For me, I believe she could have won, but I'd like to see the data. I find it unlikely that she would have won without the voting stopping after one vote.

If voting stopped after one vote per IP address or something, then imo her winning makes sense. Her popularity peaked around April/May, and started fading after that. Its very possible that she got the most votes during that period, but I just don't see it happening any other way.

 

[Deleted member]

As for 2, she could've been real, real lucky. I seriously doubt that throughout the supposed entirety of the process she beat Wolf, BK, Inklings, Ice Climbers, or K.Rool, BUT each one could have had things preventing them from making it in, at least from Sakurai's standpoint which paved her way in. For characters like BK, Ice Climbers, and maybe even K.Rool I can see reasoning, the others previouy listed are more questionable.

I can imagine Bayo beating K. Rool and Wolf, as popular as the latter two may be. Banjo and the Ice Climbers obviously weren't going to be added due to Microsoft ownership and technical limitations, respectively. That leaves us with Inkling, who might not have been feasible either.

 

[FunAtParties]

I can imagine Bayo beating K. Rool and Wolf, as popular as the latter two may be. Banjo and the Ice Climbers obviously weren't going to be added due to Microsoft ownership and technical limitations, respectively. That leaves us with Inkling, who might not have been feasible either.

Maaaaan, I had just edited that part out. I don't want to stir anything up with that. Plus it wasn't really relevant to the comment I was replying to to.

As to your point, yeah I can see BK and IC getting ignored, because of other issues. K.Rool possibly for being too big or whatever Sakurai reasons. I really don't see Wolf being beaten though, being a veteran goes a long way (should have added Snake to that list too). Inkling popularity came a little late, so maybe they just couldn't make up the necessary ground.