Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Why do people still say we have too many sword fighters in Smash? We have 58 characters in SSB4 and only 12 characters are sword fighters. That's like about 20% of the whole roster.

In regards to custom equipment, saying that there are too many sword users is almost like saying that too many fighters are wearing boots. At least the Sword equipment can be used by a decent number of fighters; equipment like the Toad, Collar, and Lollipop are far less fortunate.

Of course, it still boggles my mind how Yoshi can use Boots equipment when he's not really wearing boots; you'd think that he'd be compatible with the Shoes equipment instead.

 

[Bowserlick]

I suspected that to be the case... whenever I see people complaining about "too many sword fighters", I suspected they were actually complaining about "too many Fire Emblem characters".

I think people are sick of counters in general. But also, of sword characters having a counter, an Up B that slashes upwards and a side special that slashes sideways and a B move that charges a sword move.

 

[LunchmanJ]

How do you guys judge which character is best suited for the game? I'm not talking about likelyness but stuff like importance, relevance, etc.

 

[FunAtParties]

How do you guys judge which character is best suited for the game? I'm not talking about likelyness but stuff like importance, relevance, etc.

Importance
Well known, big impact characters.

Relevance
Characters/Series that are currently or recently being sold.


We only talk about these things, because the games director himself has mentioned these characteristics are important for characters to be considered.

 

[LunchmanJ]

Importance
Well known, big impact characters.

Relevance
Characters/Series that are currently or recently being sold.


We only talk about these things, because the games director himself has mentioned these characteristics are important for characters to be considered.

Aren't there other factors like uniqueness, doability? I just want to know exactly what are all the factors for choosing a character.

 

[Kirbeh]

Aren't there other factors like uniqueness, doability? I just want to know exactly what are all the factors for choosing a character.

Those are all factors that go into it. Importance, relevance, uniqueness, feasibility of course. It's not really an exact science though. These factors can fluctuate from one series to another. It's a case by case basis for every character.

First parties will always be more feasible than third parties on the simple fact that they're characters Nintendo already owns themselves. None of the legal hoops to jump through like with third parties.

Relevance in Mario is different than in series like Pokemon and Fire Emblem. The former generally always uses the same cast; Mario and Luigi as the playable heroes, Bowser as a villain, Peach a damsel/supporting role/occasional playable role. The latter two have a unique cast of characters in each game. Each game has it's main protagonists/villains, but these are different and ever changing from game to game unlike Mario or Zelda where you can always expect Mario and Link.

Uniqueness is quite important too. That's what gave Ice Climbers the edge over multiple other retro characters. And that said, they weren't relevant either, but the unique idea Sakurai came up for them was enough to warrant their inclusion. They're also an example of feasibility. They take a lot of work, but were doable in Melee and Brawl, but were cut in Smash For due to issues with the 3DS version.

Many, many factors go into it, but these factors aren't quite the same for every situation. I probably didn't do a very good job explaining that, but hopefully some of it helps.

 

[FunAtParties]

Aren't there other factors like uniqueness, doability? I just want to know exactly what are all the factors for choosing a character.

Oh most definitely. Uniqueness has been mentioned as well, doability isn't mentioned much outside of last second additions, and clones, but it's obviously a factor for many others.

It's also important to mention (as Kirbeh already brought up) that this isn't exactly down to a science. Importance is obviously a debatable area, uniqueness isn't always obvious and sometimes relies on inspiration, relevance is something that relies a bit on importance as well. Wonder Red for example was definitely relevant at the time of smash 4, but never got a chance, there's many other examples.

Honestly it's a messy process that's hard to balance. Sakurai and his team definitely have their work cut out for them every time.

 

[Luminario]

You know what I'd also really like to see? A Kirby rep that brings together more of the copy abilities from the actual Kirby games. Kirby's got Fighter and Ninja down pretty well with single moves for Cutter and Yoyo and Stone and such along with copy abilities to emulate Fire and Laser etc, Metaknight covers Sword and Wing pretty well, and Dedede's all about Hammer, but what about Beam? or Mirror? or Leaf? or Ice? I'd love to see a character who could have Ftilt as the typical Beam attack, or Dair as the downward Beam projectile attack, or side B as the Cutter boomerang, Nair as the Freeze breath spin, Up B as Hi-Jump, Dtilt as the Leaf attack that pops out of the ground, and so on and so forth. Even though Bandana Dee has great potential with using purely the Spear ability, they could really branch out with him and give him tons of unique Kirby abilites that can't get into the game any other way, complete with the aesthetic design of switching hats on the go depending on the move used.

 

[Bowserlick]

Waddle Dee can take Corrin's side special and smash in the next game when Corrin is removed.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Waddle Dee can take Corrin's side special and smash in the next game when Corrin is removed.

Waddle Dee has more fitting Side B's from his own games.

Let Corrin keep Dragon Lunge.

 

[FunAtParties]

Waddle Dee can take Corrin's side special and smash in the next game when Corrin is removed.

I like everything about this comment.

You know what I'd also really like to see? A Kirby rep that brings together more of the copy abilities from the actual Kirby games. Kirby's got Fighter and Ninja down pretty well with single moves for Cutter and Yoyo and Stone and such along with copy abilities to emulate Fire and Laser etc, Metaknight covers Sword and Wing pretty well, and Dedede's all about Hammer, but what about Beam? or Mirror? or Leaf? or Ice? I'd love to see a character who could have Ftilt as the typical Beam attack, or Dair as the downward Beam projectile attack, or side B as the Cutter boomerang, Nair as the Freeze breath spin, Up B as Hi-Jump, Dtilt as the Leaf attack that pops out of the ground, and so on and so forth. Even though Bandana Dee has great potential with using purely the Spear ability, they could really branch out with him and give him tons of unique Kirby abilites that can't get into the game any other way, complete with the aesthetic design of switching hats on the go depending on the move used.

Who would you suggest?

 

[Luminario]

Who would you suggest?

That's the problem, there really isn't anyone that can bring it all together besides Kirby again. Like I said Bandana Dee could feasibly do it but that would require a bit of creative liberty, which isn't that much of a stretch as it's kinda along the lines of Ness and Lucas using PK moves they can't learn in-game, just with Dee's entire moveset, but it's not ideal.

 

[FunAtParties]

That's the problem, there really isn't anyone that can bring it all together besides Kirby again. Like I said Bandana Dee could feasibly do it but that would require a bit of creative liberty, which isn't that much of a stretch as it's kinda along the lines of Ness and Lucas using PK moves they can't learn in-game, just with Dee's entire moveset, but it's not ideal.

Yeah it's tough, because the only real possibilities are characters with individual abilities (Like Knuckle Joe).

This is the exact reason I support Prince Fluff, and Susie Haltmann though. They can rep the mechanics of Epic Yarn, and Robobot respectively.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This is the exact reason I support Prince Fluff, and Susie Haltmann though. They can rep the mechanics of Epic Yarn, and Robobot respectively.

Why rep mechanics though?

I mean, Fluff and Susie have fun gameplay possibilities for sure, but if they're included they're going to be included because of the fun gameplay.

Not because the mechanics of their original series needed to be repped.

 

[FunAtParties]

Why rep mechanics though?

I mean, Fluff and Susie have fun gameplay possibilities for sure, but if they're included they're going to be included because of the fun gameplay.

Not because the mechanics of their original series needed to be repped.

True. I'm just trying to give a little extra justification to their inclusions. You have to admit it's doubtful either character would have a chance without working as some sort of representation towards the games they came from.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You have to admit it's doubtful either character would have a chance without working as some sort of representation towards the games they came from.

Smash doesn't work like that at all though.

It's VERY rare to have representation towards specific games.

 

[Deleted member]

I haven't played Robobot. What makes Susie so special?

 

[Chandeelure]

Waddle Dee has more fitting Side B's from his own games.

Let Corrin keep Dragon Lunge.

Maybe his Dash Attack could be something like this.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Maybe his Dash Attack could be something like this.

View attachment 129003

I dunno.

That seems weird for Bandana Dee's body type.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I haven't played Robobot. What makes Susie so special?

She's got a Robobot Armor herself, as proven with her boss roles.

Spoiler

Which makes sense because her father's business (Haltmann Elite Works Company) mass produces them. And he also happens to be efficient with one that he plated in solid gold himself.

She got pink top-like drones (which can act as missles, remote control decoys that act out her movements, or explosive spinning tops that spiral down any surface), a drill (something she not only uses to stomp you, but raise any mechanism that she spins above. A reoccurring mechanic for most Robobot boss fights), and lots of spinning.

Aussie came up with the idea that her playstyle should suit the boss fight by having her attacks be strengthened or deadly based on how she or her drones interact with the stand that she can screw out of the ground. This includes the drones spinning around it, acting as a secondary shield for her a la Villager's Tree, or electrifying her Drill Rush attacks (based on the final phase of her fight).

 

[FunAtParties]

Smash doesn't work like that at all though.

It's VERY rare to have representation towards specific games.

Let me reword this.

I enjoy Robobot and Epic Yarn abilities, and would like to see them in Smash one day. Prince Fluff and Susie Haltmann are 2 great choices to be able to see these abilities in Smash, and that's why I support them.

Now regardless if it's very rare to see specific game mechanics be 'repped' it would be nice imo if these two were, and would probably make them a little bit more likely to be at least considered, as characters like this tend to not have much a chance without something working along with them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You know what I want.

I want to be revamped. I'd have a more exciting base moveset over a customizable one.

Any ideas on how to revamp those three while still keeping the feel from Smash 4?



Don't say cut Miis.

 

[Deleted member]

You know what I want.

I want to be revamped. I'd have a more exciting base moveset over a customizable one.

Any ideas on how to revamp those three while still keeping the feel from Smash 4?



Don't say cut Miis.

Give the ability to walljump to begin with.

Seriously, and are able to walljump but not , as and do?

 

[FunAtParties]

You know what I want.

I want to be revamped. I'd have a more exciting base moveset over a customizable one.

Any ideas on how to revamp those three while still keeping the feel from Smash 4?



Don't say cut Miis.

Why do you want them revamped exactly? I don't really like Mii's in general, but they are a lot of fun to play with, especially swordfighter.

 

[Zerp]

I haven't played Robobot. What makes Susie so special?

Not really much makes her more important than the other one-shot villains except for

Spoiler: Planet Robobot Spoilers

that she survives the end of the game and may or may not return. She's unique moveset wise like the other Kirby villains, but nothing as of yet makes her more important than characters like Taranza and Daroach.

You know what I want.

I want to be revamped. I'd have a more exciting base moveset over a customizable one.

Any ideas on how to revamp those three while still keeping the feel from Smash 4?



Don't say cut Miis.

Not really a revamp but I think a change as small as letting them onto For Glory could make a really big difference for them, more people would play them and with a increased player-base + more people playing against them on a regular basis, Miis would have a much better shot at becoming legal in competitive play outside of their horrid G1111 forms.

 

[Luminario]

You know what I want.

I want to be revamped. I'd have a more exciting base moveset over a customizable one.

Any ideas on how to revamp those three while still keeping the feel from Smash 4?



Don't say cut Miis.

Someone mentioned somewhere on this site that the Miis should have fully customisable smashes and aerials too. I'd say they should scrap custom moves for the rest of the cast in order to completely focus the customisation on the Miis themselves.

 

[AlphaSSB]

You know what I want.

I want to be revamped. I'd have a more exciting base moveset over a customizable one.

Any ideas on how to revamp those three while still keeping the feel from Smash 4?



Don't say cut Miis.

I'd cut the Brawler/Swordfighter/Gunner archetypes and just make them into one Mii Fighter. Give the player complete control over the Mii's height, weight, every single move, color palette, and more. Make the Miis more customization, and removed the archetype restriction. They can use weapons like swords, guns, and more; they'd just be holstered when not in use, like how Shulk puts his Monado on his back when not attacking with it. The flaw with this idea is that it would require a lot of effort to balance every move, and try and prevent one set-up being completely overpowered. It's a work in progress, but I think its certainly possible.

Should a competitive mode like 'For Glory' return, have the Miis revert to a default moveset, height, weight, etc. Color and the actual Mii's face would carry over, though. That way, they can be used legally in tournament play.

 

[Arcadenik]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-color-of-magic-wandering-heroes-support-thread.447113/

Wandering Heroes are from StreetPass Mii Plaza, or more specifically Find Mii. These Miis can be either cats, dogs, bunnies, or humans. These Miis are sword fighters but they are not to be confused with . Yes, Wandering Heroes use swords just like Mii Swordfighters do... but Wandering Heroes also carry shields and possess magic.

Wandering Heroes know 12 different types of magic but they cannot know them all at once. Wandering Heroes in Find Mii wear different shirts... and those shirts determine what type of magic Wandering Heroes will use.

Red = fire
Orange = extra attacks, combos, lasers
Yellow = sand, wind, lightning
Light Green = sleep, plasma whips
Green = buffs, bouncing balls
Light Blue = ice
Blue = water, homing missiles
Pink = critical hits (sweet spots), sticky shots
Purple = poison, charge shots
Brown = summoning, spikes
White = light, buzzsaws
Black = dark, bombs

So in Smash, all Wandering Heroes share the same normal moves... but they don't share the same special moves because the color of their shirts are different.

 

[Lord-Zero]

So folks. How likely do you think Krystal's chances are?

Pretty low. She needs to be in a new Star Fox game to become relevant again. Slippy and Wolf are more likely candidates and even those 2 have it pretty bad now.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

So folks. How likely do you think Krystal's chances are?

Low. She lacks recency and Wolf will most likely be higher priority. I think her chances rely on the ballot now.

 

[Luminario]

Can't we just get more than one rep for Starfox? If Fire Emblem can jump from 2 to 6 reps in one game then Starfox can jump from 2 to 4, especially considering 2 of those characters are already semi-clones and Wolf has an entire moveset ready to be picked right out of Brawl.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think Andross has a better chance than Krystal. Although, a costume for Fox would not be the most horrible thing in the world.

 

[Deleted member]

I dislike Krystal, but even I have to argue that she'd be more likely than Andross.

People put way too much stock in the giant monkey head having a full body artwork in Zero.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think I would like to play as Slippy Toad.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Even if wolf didnt exist, i dont think krystal would get in. Lack of recency and repeatedly being glanced over pretty much makes me assume she isnt even on the radar.

I think I would like to play as Slippy Toad.

i know i would. Second favorite crew member after Falco.

 

[Bowserlick]

Andross with metal thruster gloves, command over space/time and body size and an arsenal of gadgets would be amazing.

Enough with the Fox variants.

 

[Kirbeh]

Andross with metal thruster gloves, command over space/time and body size and an arsenal of gadgets would be amazing.

Enough with the Fox variants.

Because Andross is the only character capable of not being a Fox clone? I've got nothing against Andross and agree that future Star Fox characters shouldn't carry over the same set of specials based on Fox, but discounting the other characters is just silly.

With the release of Star Fox Guard, Slippy could potentially have moves revolving around setting up turrets, deploying Ribbots, etc. This even fits better with his role as the team mechanic. Krystal has her staff and some magic at her disposal. Andross of course could be quite unique, but that's provided they take the creative liberty to include him with his original body and not just continue to relegate him to AT as a giant head.

That said, I don't really think any of the 3 are very likely (and they're the only remaining Star Fox characters who stand any chance at this point imo), especially with the current state the Star Fox series is in.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

She's got a Robobot Armor herself, as proven with her boss roles.

Spoiler

Which makes sense because her father's business (Haltmann Elite Works Company) mass produces them. And he also happens to be efficient with one that he plated in solid gold himself.

She got pink top-like drones (which can act as missles, remote control decoys that act out her movements, or explosive spinning tops that spiral down any surface), a drill (something she not only uses to stomp you, but raise any mechanism that she spins above. A reoccurring mechanic for most Robobot boss fights), and lots of spinning.

Aussie came up with the idea that her playstyle should suit the boss fight by having her attacks be strengthened or deadly based on how she or her drones interact with the stand that she can screw out of the ground. This includes the drones spinning around it, acting as a secondary shield for her a la Villager's Tree, or electrifying her Drill Rush attacks (based on the final phase of her fight).

This.

I love my Susie as much as the rest of my Kirby babies. I know she's got some potential.

 

[N3ON]

If Krystal didn't get in after the one-two punch of Adventures and Assault it seems unlikely she'd be included any time soon.

Can't we just get more than one rep for Starfox? If Fire Emblem can jump from 2 to 6 reps in one game then Starfox can jump from 2 to 4, especially considering 2 of those characters are already semi-clones and Wolf has an entire moveset ready to be picked right out of Brawl.

You must see how comparing a declining series to a fledging one is no small false equivalency...

Sadly the most I see SF getting in the future barring a return to form for the series is Wolf being re-added at some point.

 

[Bowserlick]

I hope Sakurai or a new developer sees the potential in crafting their own mad scientist/ sci-fi villain in the blank canvas that is Andross with a body. He can serve as a villain to Fox, but also Samus.