Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[~TBS~]

Wow thats the MU in a bunch huh. Definitely was playing it wrong...thanks. nair is a hassle. D:<

Running away huh? got it

The only ones i know of are the ones on here...there was one euro sonic but there was a vid of him playing from a while ago and i dont know if he plays anymore.

 

[Kupo Rose]

I wish I could play some you guys Seriously, are there ANY Euro Sonic's out there?

Meeee.

But I sucked against you.

 

[da K.I.D.]

dair is much more problematic than nair when you play the matchup correctly.

nair just punishes you for being greedy and having bad spacing and bad timing. but if your arent being greedy theres no chance for her to nair you.

 

[Joshkip]

yo speed you saw my match against nicole right? :D

 

[~TBS~]

yes...WHY WERE YOU SPINDASHING AND ROLLING SO MUCH D:

 

[da K.I.D.]

do not spindash against peach.

spindash in most matchups is your, ima just throw this out to try and make an opening move.

against peach, spindash is your, never use this move except for when you pull super hard reads and are getting a full ASC combo out of it, move.

I wish we could get that space bears picture and put it at the top of every thread like they do with the tournament threads.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

dair is much more problematic than nair when you play the matchup correctly.

nair just punishes you for being greedy and having bad spacing and bad timing. but if your arent being greedy theres no chance for her to nair you.

This

Dair is somewhat disjointed and will catch Sonic out a lot because it pokes at his hurtbox and will stop his moves
Nair is only a problem when you spindash lots or Spring -> Dair or get sloppy with your recovery

Just play really campy - Turnips can't force approaches as such so get the lead and then concentrate on being safe and avoiding damage - only go in for hits when you are absolutely sure you won't get punished yourself because Peach's punishment game is pretty darn brutal in the right hands


So yea, Sonic's other match ups - teach me

 

[Joshkip]

yes...WHY WERE YOU SPINDASHING AND ROLLING SO MUCH D:

because she didn't know how to deal with it...if you didn't notice.

do not spindash against peach.

spindash in most matchups is your, ima just throw this out to try and make an opening move.

against peach, spindash is your, never use this move except for when you pull super hard reads and are getting a full ASC combo out of it, move.

I wish we could get that space bears picture and put it at the top of every thread like they do with the tournament threads.

i was actually doing quite a bit ASC into something like fair or bair. like i said before she really didn't know how to deal with sonic getting into a ball and rushing at you really fast.

 

[WedginatorX]

She obviously did.
because you lost.

 

[Joshkip]

She obviously did.
because you lost.

she won because i started getting predictable on yoshi's it was my mistake.

 

[Kinzer]

Tell me when the majority are happy with Tesh’s chart then I’ll add it into the OP.

Why not just throw up Tesh's MU chart in the OP?

Even if a majority of us can't agree to a consensus, all of us well say "It's much more accurate than the one currently up there." I'm willing to bet money on that too.

Can you fix the picture that says 65:45, I'm not just if that is some joke I'm not getting...

Not a joke. Honest mistake.

As for the rest of the post, where do you want to start? Nobody has been motivated enough to follow some type of scheduled order, so for the moment it's just been people coming in here asking for advice on specific MUs. Most of them tend to be top tiers, or Sonic's most difficult MUs. When was the last time we talked about Yoshi extensively, huh...?

I would not mind following a similar format, or just letting somebody progress character discussion at their own discretion (since we can't really do "top of the page anymore" lol). I wouldn't mind Chis since he's the new owner, but I'm not sure if he'd want to manage one more thing, on top of the Sonic guide that's in progress (which BTW I think we ought to just cover Sonic's entire grab game in one go. F-Throw will be a pretty boring discussion outside of "replacement set-up for U-Throw > Spring when they start properly DIing U-Throw" and whatnot. Sonic's pummel would also be pretty straight-forward, bland, short, and what have you.)

That, would be totally awesome if he did though. I would love to follow a schedule, that way I wouldn't be as angry if my reviews got (heavily) criticized because at least There will be a schedule and a topic at hand.

If not him, somebody else? Perhaps myself? I mean progressing discussion anyway, Chis can keep the OP if he wants. Afterall, the hard-work involves discussing the character, and then making a guide for that matchup. all you have to do in the OP is just make a directory. Fancy pictures not included.

 

[da K.I.D.]

We are now discussing sonics matchup with peach.

I want to make sure you all know how to play this matchup. I feel this is a very important matchup to learn the right way to play, because it requires you to play FAR differently from the style that most of us play regularly.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Do we have to? Can we make it quick then cause I want to know about MU's other than Peach lol

For the record, I agree with Tesh's chart aswell, although I personally think Falco should be a red, that MU gives me hell

 

[Tesh]

I would prefer neat thread exports. Its great because we can have 2 or 3 discussions going on at once. Lets say we are discussing Jiggs, Kirby and Yoshi. We might not get a quick discussion from a dead board like Jiggs, so it doesn't have to hold up the other discussions.

This also means if we are discussing Snake and you have important questions and tips for the Wario matchup, you can put them in the proper spot and information doesn't get lost in places people won't look for it.

When the time comes to rediscuss a matchup, we can still bump these export threads so that old information links directly into new information without hundreds of pages in the way.

When we come to a decent consensus on the matchups, I'd like to reorder that chart on a spectrum from hardest matchup to easiest. I'm fine with keeping the numbers, colors and words but I'm sure none of us would rank our advantages with Bowser, DK, Zelda, Ganondorf, Charizard and Ivysaur so closely. Which is why I would prefer to have them ordered for a little more precision. This isn't important though.

I hope we can get this part over with quickly though. Since Peach is already being discussed now I don't want information being heavily placed here if we decide to go with the export threads.

 

[Espy Rose]

What is there to the Peach match up?
You run, run, run.

How can they possibly catch up?

And if Rickerdy says anything to answer the above with the usage of bone-walking or free pulling, I'm ripping his head off.

 

[Tesh]

However true that may be, maybe we should focus on the other parts of the matchup. Like dealing with her projectiles, recovery and spacing game. Assuming at times we may have to approach or that certain stages might force us into her zone.

Where does Peach like to CP a character like Sonic?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

What is there to the Peach match up?
You run, run, run.

How can they possibly catch up?

And if Rickerdy says anything to answer the above with the usage of bone-walking or free pulling, I'm ripping his head off.

At least you know what they are and I need this head tyvm :/

Assuming you're talking about Sonic running away, you don't use either them of them for approaching, they're for Peach running away. GL finding a Peach who can actually do either of those techs without B Sticking. If the Peach does B Stick though, you're going to have a field day with punishing their free pulls and iffy spacing


Anyway, pretty much run, run, run. Peach trying to bait you out of her Float? Walk away. Peach chasing you? Run. Peach pulling up a Turnip? Run up to her and tease her - grab her or heck, just stand there and see what she does - make her know it is NOT ok to pull up Turnips in this MU when you're in a neutral position because you're Sonic. Frustrate her - this MU is more about beating the Peach player rather than beating Peach herself. If the player gets angry, they're more likely to mess up and thats when you can run in with aerials/grabs and catch her out

Despite Peach being a bit slow, she can catch up to characters but Sonic can make it really nasty for her to catch up due to his speed. You want a big stage like FD where you have lots of room to run. Turnips aren't Lasers, they don't force approaches as such, they just build up a bit of damage or create traps. So don't approach her if you don't have to - let her do the work for you. You only need to be careful of Turnips when she's chasing you and throwing them up to catch you out when you're running away from her

If Sonic was running away from me, I'd take the chance to pull up a Turnip and proceed to Glide Toss it up depending on where you were. Sonic only has so much stage to work with. Peach wants to stay in the middle and try and predict where you're going to go and punish that. This is difficult on a big stage or one that has an odd layout

Get the lead and run around her and for goodness sake keep your options open so Peach can't get a lol string on you because if Peach regains the lead its going to be a nightmare getting it back if she camps and is patient


In the eyes of a Peach, this is basically the Wario MU but your speed is on the ground rather than the air. Nair is also my 'grab' in this MU - dangerous to you only if you blindly run into it

Sonic needs to take his time and out-patient Peach. You guys can live up to around 170%, maybe even higher (I think the highest I've had was around 220%) and more due to momentum cancelling and Peach's inability to land any sort of kill move provided you play safe


Peach will want to CP you to a small stage so you're limited to where you can run to. Get rid of Brinstar and possibly SV. CP YI's or Lylat - her Ground Floating is crippled there so everytime she goes for a Ground Floating Nair to punish your incoming spindashes, she'll do a Jab instead. You've also got invincible spindash and a tilting platform to work with

More to come, probably

 

[~TBS~]

Ah yes this is good. Learrrnin.
Also Kinza, good point on other MU's not really discussed. We need to be ready.

Tesh, the peaches i play either take me to battlefield (i hate that stage ugh), or brinstar.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Do not spindash in this matchup, if you try to mindgame her with it, she will dair you. if you try to catch her landing with it, she will probably dair you.

the only two times you should really be spindashing is if:
1. she pulls a turnip from across stage and you can punish with it.
2. If you hard read a dash attack and SH backwards into a 30+% ASC combo.

If you try to approach with fair, it will most likely get naired or daired, but like rick said, if you see her trying to fair you, our fair is faster and can be snuck in first.

If you see her floating, Space Bears!
If you see her approaching, run away and Space Bears!

If shes aerialing your shield, you can do one of two things.
1. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11952725&postcount=8515
2. Dont try to punish the dair on shield, that is being greedy and will get you naired, instead, either roll away, or shield all of the aerials, and the inevitable jab that will come after, and punish that jab.

when she is offstage, try to homing attack her float or double jump.

as for parasol, its best most of the time to not contest it, but if you get into the right position with some good timing, you can fast fall an invincible fair from the ledge and beat her umbrella.

 

[Chis]

when she is offstage, try to homing attack her float or double jump.

Don't do that. She'll just hit you in the face with a nair.

 

[Exceladon City]

Bair. Is. Godlike. That's like your primary tool in this MU. If she jumps, RAR a Bair. Falling Fair? Space yourself for a SHFFBair.

According to KB, Dair on our shield is a free Fair OOS. I don't recall using Fair OOS much in the match-up. I'm pretty partial to Uair OOS.

Get in and out of Peach's defenses. Jab comes out on Frame 2 and it's a pain to deal with. Get in, do some work, run away and watch for an approach you can deal with. Dair isn't gonna be one of them.

As KID said before, DO NOT MINDLESSLY SPINDASH. Ground Float Nair eats them alive and it puts you in a pretty bad position.

TBH you're probably gonna want to Zcatch Turnips. It's sorta gives you an approach. Nothing too significant, but something to work with.

King Beef/KBizzle namesearch. He's very familiar with this MU having played Shugo and ITT on numerous occasions.

 

[Joshkip]

i have always banned brinstar....ALWAYS >:I

 

[Tesh]

I kinda feel like Brinstar is Sonic's worst stage. Not to mention you gotta factor in pocket MKs. I always ban that stage.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Just because I know hes coming now, Im going to brag about beating KB on the aib ladder. lol.

 

[Exceladon City]

Just because I know hes coming now, Im going to brag about beating KB on the aib ladder. lol.

Well while you're at it, I'll brag about 2 stocking your Sonic with Luigi. inb4wifijohns

 

[da K.I.D.]

and ill brag about beating your sonic with my toonlink.

and winning the ladder match.

 

[Exceladon City]

and ill brag about beating your sonic with my toonlink.

and winning the ladder match.

Barely. You lucky I wasn't able to get my MM with Kingtoon in. I was about to show you up, by not getting 3 stocked super hard.

 

[Kinzer]

Keep talking about Peach damn you, it was great up until you brought trashtalk in here. :X

*Ahem.* Seems like a lot of what could be said has already been covered. I won't say much, if anything since it's been so long for me.

Spindash, yeah. Not recommended. Still works great though if they happen to be right on top of you thanks to invincibility, but every other instance you'll be lucky to trade.

And instead of a more "gimmicky" approach; what with Spinball shenanigans and fake-outs and what not, rely on Sonic's base stats. As strange that sounds, it'll get you further many times over than trying to use scare tactics on Peach. Direct aerial combat she's probably better at since Sonic's mobility in the air is limited. I would restrict yourself to retreating Back Airs and Forward Airs from a run. Uair to land camp as per usual, except it happens to be much more effective in this MU due to Peach's limited defensive aerial tactics.

You approach this matchup patiently and very slowly. I can't think of anything else to say that isn't blatant pure theorycraft and something that Sonic doesn't lose at with much rebuttal.

Yeah, Brinstar's pretty bad. It forces you to stay close when sometimes you'll just want to get away from Peach. It also encourages a lot of aerial combat and once again Sonic can only deal with so much before he'll either need to work with ground or just run away.

Has anybody actually made a Peach write-up or no...? I'm certain that it's one of the most discussed MUs in this thread, so I would assume somewhere along the way somebody must've made an attempt to make one. If not, eh~...

 

[da K.I.D.]

what stages is peach bad on?
I would say just counterpick fd and picto because they are big, and make it harder for peach to kill.

also, that sonic ditto strat of charge side b until they attack you then beat their attack with invincibility works good against peach as well.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Peach's turnips don't force approaches, so having big, wide stages to run around in and give you space to punch holes in her defense is good. FD, Pictochat, Castle Siege's 2nd and 3rd transformations, and Luigi's (if it's legal) come to mind.

If Peach plucks out a Mr. Saturn, be really careful with shielding since getting hit by it would slice it hard. If she gets a bob-omb, stay the hell away until she throws it, and remember that these particular bob-ombs cannot be caught like regular items, so you can't try and throw it right back at her. If she gets a Beam Sword....good luck?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Pictochat is an excellent stage choice for Sonic - run away all day

Avoid places like BF and SV, they're very small and make it difficult to run away when you need to. Small stages are good for Peach because she gets to stay in mid range which is where she's good

 

[Mr. Johan]

So are we going to go through making exports after all?

If Tesh wants assistance with handling exports, I could help out.

And I guess we could knock Peach off the checklist as a 40:60 - 45:55/slight disadvantage too.

 

[Tenki]

what stages is peach bad on?
I would say just counterpick fd and picto because they are big, and make it harder for peach to kill.

also, that sonic ditto strat of charge side b until they attack you then beat their attack with invincibility works good against peach as well.

what about say, jumping towards a floating Peach and charging sideB?

it's more of a pseudo approach but using that idea lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

as long as you put yourself in the position where she is attacking your side b charge so you can just release it and beat her. whatever works.

 

[Tesh]

Lets get these neat Export threads going for matchup discussions. This time we need to invite another board over for their input so we don't just have a dozen Sonics and a Peach/Sonic discussing the matchup.

I've heard some buzz about the R.O.B. matchup so I'm thinking that would be the first place to go. Any other suggestions?

 

[Kinzer]

You know, I kind of liked it without inviting the other mains.

No more of this "Sonic has no priority we win blah blah blah" BS. I trust that we're all intelligent enough to know better when Sonic loses on one property to one character and loses on another to another character.

The only real disagreement we have as far as I know is on who is Sonic's toguhest MU is, and whether it's winnable or not.

I mean, how often do you hear any of us going "We beat Falcon 6:4 cause we're faster" "No we don't, we lose 55:45 'cause he has better pseudo-setups into his kill moves?" For the really unorthodox things, or in the grand scheme, we all moreorless agree... we just have different views and view the degree of the win/lose differently.

TL;DR can we try to keep this to ourselves please?

 

[Tesh]

We don't have to take their word as law. But it helps you have mains of other character to give inputs about things we might not know about or understand fully. The type of ignorance you are talking about comes from forming an opinion without actually talking to the mains of other characters.

We want to get as much information as we can and then WE can decide how relevant all of it is and what the ratio will be listed as. But as far as discussion goes, we shouldn't turn our noses up at any input from anywhere.

 

[WedginatorX]

Because it was brought up, sonic vs. falcon is 55:45.
If we do a rob discussion as tesh suggested (and I second that motion), as much as goggles dislikes him and some people discredit him, I believe we should get chibo in on the discussion.

 

[Tesh]

Isn't Chibo the best ROB? Why wouldn't we want him in the discussion? Honestly the only 3 ROBs I've ever heard of are Chibo, Stingers and Lada. It was definitely be good to get the best of the best in here for a chat.

 

[Espy Rose]

Because Chibo thinks ROB completely stops Sonic's ground game with gyro, that's why.