Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[WedginatorX]

I guess that tesh didn't understand that I was joking.
Stingers is much more knowledgeable about the matchup in my opinion. Also seeing as he secondaries sonic and has a much more solid sonic than more than half of the world's sonic mains.
Edit: I might be able to pull ninjalink in here? Idk haven't talked to randall in awhile. But I remember he seemed to have the matchup on lockdown when he went rob vs my sonic in early 2010.

 

[Tesh]

I'm just gonna make the export thread and post in their matchup thread and perhaps their social/general. If you have ideas about people that can give special or more insightful info, please invite them as well.

 

[-LzR-]

I know about Rob as he is my old main. I know about Sonic too. I don't know the MU, but I know the chars.

Rob's moves are laggy. When he whiffs, it's always a free punish.
Also when he is below juggle him like no tomorrow that's his weakness.

Don't try to gimp him as it's not worth the trouble but still try to rack some damage.

 

[Tesh]

Lets move this fight to a safer place: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=295951

 

[Kinzer]

The type of ignorance you are talking about comes from forming an opinion without actually talking to the mains of other characters.

I've seen enough cases were people fail to realize Sonic as a character, but I suppose as long as it's just taking opinions into consideration instead of having to actually explain it to those people (and watch their counter-counter rebuttals afterwards) I can put up with it.

Super late reply, but oh well.

 

[JayBee]

Im interested in what people think about Powershield cancelling and its effect on matchups like this for sonic. Things seem to get a lot more punishable...

 

[Tesh]

Isn't PSC just overhyped buffering? Thats not really the sort of thing that changes matchups. Seeing as power shielding alone would make killing with Sonic pretty easy. It just isn't easy to powershield stuff and then buffer things out for frame perfect punishing.

Unless ur snake or ZSS.

 

[da K.I.D.]

powershield canceling isnt new.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx3W8MYpIbI#t=07m51s

Powershielding has never had lag, and certain people have always known this...

 

[Tesh]

Which matchup should be up next for discussion? Since we will have seperate threads, we don't need the R.O.B. discussion to "conclude" before starting the next one.

Just tossing some names out.

Kirby DDD Bowser Toon Link Pit or Lucas.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I figured just going down the tier list would be the best course of action. Sonic's not low tier, so we don't have to mostly focus on low tier MUs for low tier tournaments, and since most of Sonic MUs are widely agreed to be within the same range (slight disadvantage - even - slight advantage), and that his MU spread isn't all over the place, we don't have to really prioritize the order of MU discussions.

Excluding the hot topics like Peach, ROB, and perhaps Wolf, I thought it would be better just to go one by one down the list, so that there's no need to strain over, and pick and choose a character that is seemingly "random" to go with.

 

[da K.I.D.]

People arent going to bother wanting to put effort into this kind of matchup discussion unless:

1. They just lost to a character in tourney (usually badly) because they didnt know what to do and are coming here for help.
2. They are nice people and are trying to help the dude from number one out.

thats why we do it the way we do it.

At my last tourney, I pretty much got ***** by kingtoon. I immediately came back here and asked for help on the toon link matchup, and thats what we talked about. If, for example the same thing happened but instead of just immediately talking about toon link, we were still on wario or something, and I had to wait for discussions (that nobody really wants to participate in) for like 10 characters to finish before you got to my problem. Not only would I not bother coming to get help, but at the same time I would be too disallusioned with this place to come here and help other people with matchups that I do know well and would want to help people with. Like DK, and ike for example

 

[Chis]

Kid makes a good point. We've also had a good amount of character discussions recently which I think would be worth digging up.

And maybe instead of write ups which are loaded with words, we can quote relevant parts of the discussion so people won’t need do write as much.

 

[Kinzer]

Which matchup should be up next for discussion? Since we will have seperate threads, we don't need the R.O.B. discussion to "conclude" before starting the next one.

Just tossing some names out.

Kirby DDD Bowser Toon Link Pit or Lucas.

Seems like a good idea. I was thinking by the weeks, but I suppose I'm not expecting enough. It is very possible to juggle a couple here and there, no?

I figured just going down the tier list would be the best course of action. Sonic's not low tier, so we don't have to mostly focus on low tier MUs for low tier tournaments, and since most of Sonic MUs are widely agreed to be within the same range (slight disadvantage - even - slight advantage), and that his MU spread isn't all over the place, we don't have to really prioritize the order of MU discussions.

Excluding the hot topics like Peach, ROB, and perhaps Wolf, I thought it would be better just to go one by one down the list, so that there's no need to strain over, and pick and choose a character that is seemingly "random" to go with.

Uh, slight problem.

Going down the tier list is fine, really it is. For the sake of how often you'll see characters, the trend is that the higher up they are, the more often you'll see that character and need to know how to deal with them to advance.

That however leaves the characters who are seldom/never used to never be discussed. At all. Probably not a loss since they're not used for a reason, but never as an exaggeration as we all know, and I'm sure we all have our good friends who happen to use Ganon and be decent enough to give us a run for our money.

Whether you win or lose against your buddy is irrelevant to the point. At the end of the match, you'll probably be thinking something along the lines of: "Wow, I got hit by so many of those when I'm sure they could've been avoided. How do I go about minimizing the damage?" or "How do I best exploit his bad recovery? He always SDI's my Spring and it seems to do nothing but give him 4% and bring him back up easily. :/"

I personally would love to discuss Wolf or Marth next.

 

[Tesh]

I understand your points, folks. This is why I wanted it all redone in export threads. Maybe we aren't all interested in the Bowser matchup atm, BUT we can get started and add more week by week, month by month and it will stay in one neat package.

As opposed to:
Bowser matchup pages 1-20
Then we talked about toon link 21-24
Page 25 mentions some helpful Bowser tips
Bowser discussion continues on page 35
Extensive Bowser discussion page 40-50
Random Bowser knowledge on page 401 of the social thread.

Each thread can also serve as a continuous matchup specific Q&A/FAQ. Instead of people asking the same question every 50 pages in this one massive thread, They can read through the matchup discussion thread for their specific problem character. Then if they need more info, they can bump it with their question. Thus expanding the information in the neat package.

We can still do extra neat concise write ups, but there is less need for it if we have another way to seperate information for each matchup.

 

[WedginatorX]

I say do wolf.
Please. I don't wanna lose another moneymatch to Yes!

 

[Tesh]

Dances with wolves?

 

[Chis]

I understand your points, folks. This is why I wanted it all redone in export threads. Maybe we aren't all interested in the Bowser matchup atm, BUT we can get started and add more week by week, month by month and it will stay in one neat package.

As opposed to:
Bowser matchup pages 1-20
Then we talked about toon link 21-24
Page 25 mentions some helpful Bowser tips
Bowser discussion continues on page 35
Extensive Bowser discussion page 40-50
Random Bowser knowledge on page 401 of the social thread.

Each thread can also serve as a continuous matchup specific Q&A/FAQ. Instead of people asking the same question every 50 pages in this one massive thread, They can read through the matchup discussion thread for their specific problem character. Then if they need more info, they can bump it with their question. Thus expanding the information in the neat package.

We can still do extra neat concise write ups, but there is less need for it if we have another way to seperate information for each matchup.

So do we start a new thread with a macth up chart and links to the discussions or should I just edit the OP of this thread?

We should also discuss how we're going to do write ups. Let's be honest, no one wants to do them so we need to find another way to approach them.

 

[Tesh]

I don't think we need to make a new thread for the matchup "hub" really. Only thing I would want in a new thread would be maybe a link list for all the export threads, as well as chart/graph/spectrum of matchups with some explanations on grading a matchup difficulty.

If anything that could even be a collapsed section of the Sonic Guide, but for now I think the OP of this thread works fine. BTW I think everyone agrees that my matchup chart is AT LEAST better than the one we currently have up.

Write-ups are......meh. If people want to give useful information in a concise manner, it wouldn't be any trouble to put it in the OP. But alot of the write-ups I have seen are so empty that you don't get anything out of it anyway. There can be alot to deal with and once you put it all into a write-up, you have the whole thread just crammed back into the OP. Perhaps videos would be more useful at illustrating the thing outlined in the threads.

 

[Kinzer]

Too bad videos aren't readily handy at all times, and even those can be criticized like "oh that opponent didn't abuse this or that" or blah blah blah.

Then again, as long as you're willing put out the obvious "this sould've happened at this moment and would demonstrate how to abuse the opponent's character's weakness" et cetera.

Hell, that's kind of what I wanted to do with Jerry for a while now. I want to get better with the cast and I want him to improve with Sonic so that we can have some videos to put up and just use that as some sort of guideline and whatnot. If not that, there's always just being a camera-***** around Vegassmash. There is enough diversity and skill to go around and give everybody at least some idea. If you want the absolute best demonstration, you're asking for too much. Not everybody gets many chances to play M2K, 3Z@/\/\, @113y, and whatnot (leetspeak to avoid namesearch baits), but then again I hope people are more reasonable than this.

 

[Tesh]

Ideas for next matchup discussion? I kinda wanna know how everyone feels about DDD vs Sonic now. I used to feel it was sort of even, but now with easiest kill setup in the game i dont know.

 

[NH Cody]

I used to feel it was sort of even, but now with easiest kill setup in the game i dont know.

What?

For who? Us or D3?

 

[Tenki]

For D3. Some kind of grab > usmash thing, I think.

 

[Tesh]

Dthrow-upsmash true combo

So yea, instead of living til 200+ cuz he cant uptilt sonic and back air is his only other good move, now we die at 130 from a frame 6 massive grab.

I have yet to experience this, but it sounds awful. Its not just about the killing either. CGing across the stage into an upsmash is more guaranteed damage than trying to edgeguard sonic. I don't even know how much damage upsmash does but......each CG could easily be 30 damage and Upsmash would still be semi fresh for killing.

 

[WedginatorX]

No one really seems to know about it though lol. Would be nice to keep it that way as long as possible.

 

[Kinzer]

No one really seems to know about it though lol. Would be nice to keep it that way as long as possible.

Unfortunately, I don't know how else to say it.

Earlier I was thinking "eh, nobody plays D3, why even bother?" I just hate to say that though because no MU I feel should be underestimated. No matter how far in Sonic's favor it may be, or how little it actually gets played out.

If there had to be a vote for a new discussion, I would put my vote in for Yoshi... even though the same can be said I believe where few (if any besides myself) Sonic's play any Yoshis. I know they exist, but bleh.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I wouldn't mind knowing what to do vs DeDeDe

Like, do you get a hit in and then just run away for the whole match? Grab and Bair are terribly irritating

 

[da K.I.D.]

I fight yoshi far FAR more often than anybody should reasonably be allowed

 

[Espy Rose]

I fight THE Yoshi FAR more often than anybody should reasonably be allowed.

 

[Trent]

We should discuss the Metaknight match up.

Spoiler

lul

 

[da K.I.D.]

espy, I would say i have it worse because I have to play like 5 different yoshis, and they all play different. its more gay and annoying then being able to adapt to the one guy, even if he is the best yoshi.

and trent that might not be a bad idea. Although im pretty sure most of us know every single solitary aspect of the mk matchup and the only thing holding people (or at least me) back, is execution.

 

[WedginatorX]

OH BOOHOO
YOSHIS
LET'S CRY ABOUT FREE WINS IN BRACKET.
/caps

 

[Espy Rose]

Actually, I fight two Yoshi's. And their styles are different.
Still. I'd rather fight five different Yoshi's than THE Yoshi over and over again.
The best is the best for a reason KID.

 

[Chis]

So are we just going to make more threads or are we going to actually do some write ups? Or quotes at least.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ive done a full and complete write up on ike. even though its old I still typed out a lot of info about wolf, and i personally oversaw our discussion on DDD.

The work is being put in. so who ever is in charge of the thread needs to put it together.

 

[Tesh]

Nah, its gotta be new. I have sifted through the old discussions. If the old discussions were perfectly fine, then we wouldn't have new discussions (no one would). Like I said if someone has a good summary that has all the information relevant to the matchup, then I'll put it in the OP of each thread. But it can be alot of info and I see no point in quoting an entire thread. All it would really help is to remove the posts that are completely off topic. Such as folks complaining about the thread existing or setting up money matches etc.

Whats the point of a write up anyway?

 

[Chis]

Someone wants to know how to fight Snake. They read the write up which includes the stage recommends, things to look out for and how to deal with certain things. All without going through pages and pages of ‘debating’. A match up ratio isn’t going to help you beat a Snake player.

 

[Tesh]

Well, if you have everything important in the write up, its gonna be pretty big anyway. It does help remove all the fluff, but if usually people just have these 150 word paragraphs with a vague "idea" of how things go.

 

[Trillion]

I think we just need to make a summary thing that looks something like this. It is short, simple, lists the MOST relevant stuff and when a question is asked that is not already answered, we update it to include that answer.

Character Name

Advantages (things in our favor) to Note: (i.e. easy to gimp, light and easy to kill, etc.)

Disadvantages (things in their favor) to Note: (I.e. this character chain grabs us, this character out priortizes us on every attack, etc.)

How to Deal with Moves/Tactics/Disadvantages: (I.e. bair or fsmash tilted up can beat tornado, don't try to throw back grenades, etc.)

General Strategy: (i.e. run away and play extra safe, try to approach more, try to gain control of the bananas, etc.)

Stages to Ban and Reasons Why:

Stages to CP and Reasons Why:

Match up Ratio:

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=273168

 

[Kinzer]

... GDI.

Now that Goggles gave me that thread, I'm starting to think Donkey Bong would've generated more discussion than King D3.

Everybody here is at a consensus that D3 wins either 55:45 or 6:4. Minor difference but close enough.

B****es don't know about Donkey Bong's Sonic's Back air though and I am on the belief that MU is even.

Yeah I said it. Don't fall for stupid @#$% and you win. G@me.