The New Mario Match-Up Index

[ThatGuy]

EDIT: I still say 35:75 to 20:80. Mario can outplay MK in every respect and still lose. All MK has to do is stay patient. Sooner or later Mario will be offstage and then it's game over, man. Game over.

35:75 sounds good.

 

[Calebyte]

25:75, my math is terrible, lol. Good thing I studied art and design

 

[Fire!]

"90% of meta knight players aren't good"..i'm fairly sure that is a false assumption. I can't think of any bad players that main Meta Knight in the Midwest. Maybe one or two.

I'm guessing he was saying that 90% of Meta Knight players don't bother to actually learn him and learn him well. I'm pretty sure that most if not all of Washington has MK as a second or third just for the sake of playing him.

As for my videos, I completely agree with ThatGuy. I went for the gimps because in all honesty, it wasn't my great spacing or infinite patience that was gonna give me the win. Those were Wifi matches BTW.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm guessing he was saying that 90% of Meta Knight players don't bother to actually learn him and learn him well.

This. Seriously.

 

[Ryo_Guikido]

hey dudes. I was readin the MK summary and noticed somethings that were missing. It was said that MK can't do anything but shield marios fireballs. Wrong. his dash attack stops them. also sweetspotted reverse F-smash can get thru Nado and U smash if MKs above you. and for gimping cape all his B moves. they get super salty about that. ill have some vids up of me vs M2K later. THIS IS NOT RYO BTW. MY NAME IS LC AND IM A MARIO MAIN.

 

[Coolwhip]

My god....The mario boards just keeps getting better day-by-day. This is hella legit.
<----Da Bess

 

[HeroMystic]

hey dudes. I was readin the MK summary and noticed somethings that were missing. It was said that MK can't do anything but shield marios fireballs. Wrong. his dash attack stops them.

Which honestly shouldn't happen if you're camping correctly. I.e., not approaching and keeping distance.

Careful with taking statements out of context.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Why would MK ever dash attack a fireball?

 

[HeroMystic]

I dunno. They would use tornado out of anything else honestly.

 

[Reducas]

yea but its easy for mario to double jump away right?

 

[SKidd]

Any tips on the Marth and Lucario matchups?

 

[JuxtaposeX]

FLUDD and Cape work on Marth, but he still pretty much out ***** you on the ground and in the air. Still better than Luigi in my opinion.
Throw out a few capes out to let Lucario know that he'll have to work even harder to land an Aura Sphere, or keep it hidden and use it as a surprise, and I guess watch out for Lucario's DAIR? It pretty much beats anything Mario has when hes right above you, I think. You should probably keep an easy to land killing move fresh, or spam fireballs to refresh them.

If all else fails, just take his money with upbs.

 

[HeroMystic]

yea but its easy for mario to double jump away right?

Only if Tornado isn't used at the right time. Most of the time Tornado is used to punish the fireball lag, which is why it's important to keep your distance when fireball camping.

Any tips on the Marth and Lucario matchups?

Juxt pretty much said the concern vs Marth. D-tilt and F-air both perfectly space Mario and it also blocks fireballs. The majority of the match is just waiting for an opening and punishing hard. This often leads you to camping and throwing out fireballs trying to wait it out. FLUDD helps considerably on this match-up. Cape Jumping can help intercept his F-air.

Lucario's pretty simple. The first stock kill will often tell who the winner is. Lucario's back is the weakest part, which is incredibly hard to capitalize on, but his front is pretty weak too (in the air). Make good use of fireballs and when Lucario is knocked in the air, turn it into an aerial battle because your Anti-Air options won't do much good here. Cape his aura spheres, etc. Pretty much an even match, probably 55:45 Lucario.

 

[mars16]

I ye another funny moving signature picture

 

[Calebyte]

Working on stuff for Wario. Feel free to chime in here, guys.

One of Mario's easier high tier MUs, Wario relies heavily on air-camping and bike shenanigans. Generally the best strategy for Mario is to stay in the air. Bair and Nair are your nest options in the air. Try not to let Wario get above you because of you do you're asking to be daired. If you're feeling ballsy, UpB is a good answer to Wario's dair. SH fireballs can help out quite a bit. On the ground your tilts will halp you out a lot, especially utilt, since Wario likes to approach from above.

This is also an MU where it's pretty vital for Mario to take the first stock. Wario's air mobility is insane and once he has a lead, he's going to nimbly fly around the stage avoiding us, forcing us to take a risks with approaching.

Other points...Wario's fart can kill you early, thought I admittedy don't know how the fart works at all. Also, his recovery is really good, meaning you won't be gimping him.

Otherwise Wario doesn't really have anything gay on us, so I'd put the ration at 45:55 Wario. Not a bad MU, but in Wario's favor.

Like I said, I'm not a know-it-all, so please chime it with your thoughts.

 

[HeroMystic]

Luigi Summary

Luigi

The beloved brother to Mario, but also a force to be reckoned with. Luigi is a character that may have the same moves and cosmetics as Mario, but the two work fundamentally different. While Mario has speed and defensive tactics, Luigi excels in offensive power and technique.

Mario has to be very careful when fighting Luigi. Every bit of damage he takes takes him a few steps closers to getting F-Smash'd, which takes out Mario at 90%, and not to mention safe on block, which makes it spammable. U-Smash kills about 10% earlier than Mario(110%), and D-Smash, while usually it doesn't kill, can put you in unfavorable positions. Luigi has better aerials than Mario overall. B-air outranges Mario's B-air, and N-air is no ****ing joke as it's a combo breaker and a kill move. D-air is a good vertical spacer as well.

Then there is the Super Jump Punch, AKA the "Shoryuken". This move can instantly turn the tables on Mario if he gets this off, and if he is losing, he will go for it, even at random. Extreme emphasis on staying spaced at the entire match-up, otherwise you'll eat an Up-B OO(P)S. He can also use Jab -> Up-B or D-tilt(Trip) -> Up-B. Thankfully the range on these moves are rather poor so as long as Mario doesn't try to blitz, he can avoid getting caught in those situations.

Other tidbits are Luigi's jabs leading into grabs, and B-throw being able to kill Mario about 15-20% earlier than his (if not DI'd. Otherwise it's only about 10%, if that).

Despite all of this, Mario has the tools to combat Luigi's strengths. While Luigi's jabs are better, Mario can still use his to space. Breakdance Combo and PPK Combo are also legit. F-tilt is excellent at spacing Luigi and is also safe on block, and of course D-Smash is a good GTFO move as always. Ironically, Mario's U-air has more range than Luigi's aerials, so poking with that whenever Luigi is aerial is a good idea. However, your usual Anti-Air options (U-tilt and U-Smash) are better, especially since U-Smash gives invincibility and thoroughly negates Luigi's N-air. Use Fireballs on a consistent basis this MU but don't rely on them for spacing since Luigi can just use Cyclone to approach.

Despite the emphasis on Luigi's power, Mario can kill (or gimp) Luigi just as consistently. F-Smash at 130% will most definitely kill Luigi, and Sliding(Charged) U-Smash are legit which closes the gap in kill power, though that will be hard to use since U-Smash is important for Anti-Air. Luigi has an awesome, but vulnerable recovery. Use FLUDD if Luigi is using the Missle, since it'll stop him instantly, and use Cape if he's getting close to the ledge. Fireball if he has to recover from below and watch out for Cyclone Recovery since it doesn't put him in a freefall. Mario still has his aerials as well so if Luigi manages to avoid the usual options, use them.

This MU is all about spacing. Mario has to poke his way through this match and thanks to Luigi's bad approach options and terrible aerial speed this is possible and easily what makes this MU an even match. However, be sure to stay attentive as Luigi can easily jump right back in the lead if you allow him to get a Shoryuken off.

Stages to CP: Battlefield, Final Destination, Yoshi's Island.
Stages to Ban: Frigate, Halberd.

====

Correct or add in anything I wrote up. It's been too long since I fought a Luigi, but this is mainly based off my matches with PolMex.

 

[HeroMystic]

Wario

Like I said, I'm not a know-it-all, so please chime it with your thoughts.

Know-it-all to the rescue! Found my post in the redicussion thread about Wario.

Wario is another one of those "Paper vs Practicality" Match-ups. Statistically speaking, Wario beats Mario in various ranges especially in the recovery business, but when applying this on-stage this often feels like an even match due to Mario's mix-ups.

B-air is your best friend here. Wario's aerial speed doesn't make camping very viable, and this is generally a match where you have to pressure Wario pretty hard but not be too aggressive. Wario is godly at spacing, but FLUDD and B-air really messes him up. I wouldn't apply ground game much. Just jab or D-Smash to get Wario away from you. F-Smash if possible. Save U-Smash for KOs though.

It's definitely 60:40 Wario. He's capable of living longer, has an S-tier recovery, and can kill faster than Mario, but that's all stats. B-air pressure and messing up Wario's approaches with FLUDD does plenty this match.

About Bolded: U-Smash and F-tilt(vs grounded Wario) are legit.

Some other add-ons are Wario's aerials, particularly F-air having godly spacing attributes thanks to his aerial speed, and Wario's Bite being stupid and killing off any physical approach we have except for fireball approaching. It's definitely not even. 55:45 is debatable but I feel 60:40 is just right. Wario just has too much going for him vs Mario to call it even.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

uh can anyone please tell me how I'm supposed to play peach? she's possibly one of my worst match ups when it comes to characters that aren't "counters" against mario.

 

[Calebyte]

Check the "Threads of Reference" in the OP, you should be able to dig up something. Or not. We can maybe do Peach next once we get Luigi and Wario done.

 

[HeroMystic]

Peach has been popping up recently so she should be next. I won't be able to write up the analysis though.

 

[Calebyte]

BoX7 plays some Peach now doesn't he? Maybe we can coax him back to the boards to give us some insight into that MU.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Bo still plays? I thought he quit awhile ago.

 

[Fire!]

I think he quit in early summer. His information would still be up to date though.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm gonna give little bits of information on the ones being discussed.

Luigi - Camping and spacing are very important. Being aggressive will not be helpful to you. I did a $2 MM with Hippiedude at Apex 2010 and I played pretty aggressively. There was good amount of trading hits and with Luigi's much better kill power, it really helped him out. If you space well, it will help you. If Luigi doesn't PS a move, it's basically safe on block. His aerial mobility is also very poor which means he has very poor approaches. I'd consider it an even MU.

Wario - He's really annoying and really campy. He can weave around fireballs with ease so camping him is useless. As Wario is landing, use a move that hits above you like Utilt or Usmash to rack up some damage. Uair is also a good tool against Wario if you're up close or he's trying to dair you. A good Wario will stay alive for a long time and will not get gimped. It's definitely a winnable MU, but it's a disadvantage. Probably 45:55 or 4:6.

Peach - Peach uses lots of turnips, lots of dair since its very good at poking shields, and lots of fair because it's good and it auto cancels. Her dair is a key move and being below her for most of the battle is bad. It really helps her rack up a lot of damage Fight her more horizontally with bair. I don't know if Mario can use UpB OOS successfully against Peach's dair. If you can, it would be a helpful tool for you to use. Gimping Peach is hard and shouldn't happen often. It's either even of 45:55.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think good Peach players should use D-air that much against Mario. You can definitely Up-B oos between hits, and you have more moves that can punish it with perfect timing if she commits to the final hit on your shield. Plus Mario is good at SDI punishing Peach's D-air. If you can get above her while SDIing, you can get a free hit on her when she D-airs you.

Rest of the analysis is correct. On a side note, I personally think Mario beats Wario on Brinstar, even though most Warios will take you to that stage as their preferred counterpick. If you know how Brinstar works, I'm pretty convinced it benefits Mario significantly more, and you can actually camp him on that stage very effectively due to its layout.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why isn't it good to stay grounded against Wario? Walking utilt > Dair / bite and it's lagless enough to follow up with a pivot grab or AAA if he baits with empty jumps / airdodges. If he does high dairs you can also just duck below them to sneak under him, from where utilt beats all his moves. Walking is much better for spacing / baiting than jumping because Wario is so much faster than Mario in the air. If you know how to use your ground game you will lose a lot less space than by spacing in the air, where he is more mobile than Mario and where he deals more damage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's important to mix up between walling with B-air and tilts against Wario. They both work in different situations, and Mario needs the damage of his aerials to keep up in this matchup.

And on Brinstar, I'm pretty sure Mario beats Wario in the air more easily since the smaller stage leaves less room for Wario to space, and the platforms are well spaced for fireball camping. Mario also pressures platforms from below better than Wario thanks to the way his D-air works.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Mario also pressures platforms from below better than Wario thanks to the way his D-air works.

What do you mean?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's D-air from below is one of the best platform pressure aerials in the game. Wario doesn't really have anything that good for the purpose of pressuring platforms (his U-air does a lot of damage and knockback, but really shouldn't be hitting you often if you're careful). From my experiences, this is one important tool that gives Mario a better ability to control the platforms on Brinstar.

Mario's D-air is multihit, and you can reach the top platform with fullhop D-air. More importantly, D-air has like no ending lag after the final hit. Basically not only does it shieldstab like a pro, if your opponent even manages to block it, they generally have to stay on the platform shielding or risk getting punished. Against most characters who platform pressure, generally after they hit your shield, it's safe to jump out of shield, or possibly ledgedrop out of shield if that's your thing (although it's very difficult to do). Mario's D-air is such a move that after it ends, you can follow up quickly enough to punish anything your opponent does that isn't continued blocking.

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe SH D-air also covers the side platforms as well. Mario also camps quite well on the platforms, which add more depth to his fireball game.

 

[Inferno3044]

I don't think good Peach players should use D-air that much against Mario. You can definitely Up-B oos between hits, and you have more moves that can punish it with perfect timing if she commits to the final hit on your shield. Plus Mario is good at SDI punishing Peach's D-air. If you can get above her while SDIing, you can get a free hit on her when she D-airs you.

Rest of the analysis is correct. On a side note, I personally think Mario beats Wario on Brinstar, even though most Warios will take you to that stage as their preferred counterpick. If you know how Brinstar works, I'm pretty convinced it benefits Mario significantly more, and you can actually camp him on that stage very effectively due to its layout.

Making sure that you could UpB her dair. Also, Peach can just float away while using dair to make it safe on block.

Mario can't efficiently camp Wario. He weaves through fireballs like it's nothing.

 

[BSP]

I'm gonna give little bits of information on the ones being discussed.

Luigi - Camping and spacing are very important. Being aggressive will not be helpful to you. I did a $2 MM with Hippiedude at Apex 2010 and I played pretty aggressively. There was good amount of trading hits and with Luigi's much better kill power, it really helped him out. If you space well, it will help you. If Luigi doesn't PS a move, it's basically safe on block. His aerial mobility is also very poor which means he has very poor approaches. I'd consider it an even MU.

I agree with this writeup. Did you get hit by Fsmash a lot? I've played this MU a bit and I've noticed Luigi's KO power only extremely outclasses Mario's with Fsmash and Up B. The gap in KO power is lowered a good bit if Mario spaces really safely and doesn't fall into an up b or fsmash. I agree on even. And Mario can usually shut down his approach with FBs and some Bair and even Fsmash (weegee slides too far to retaliate) thrown in.

Wario - He's really annoying and really campy. He can weave around fireballs with ease so camping him is useless. As Wario is landing, use a move that hits above you like Utilt or Usmash to rack up some damage. Uair is also a good tool against Wario if you're up close or he's trying to dair you. A good Wario will stay alive for a long time and will not get gimped. It's definitely a winnable MU, but it's a disadvantage. Probably 45:55 or 4:6.

It's good to note that Utilt will trade with his Dair if you get it out early enough. Wario takes 7% opposed to Mario 2%, so it's worth it if you see it coming. Also, utilize Up B OOS in this MU. Wario can usually hit opponents shield and manuver away before they can retaliate, but we have a good up B. Mario should be able to hit him with it as soon as the last hit of Wario's dair hits our shield.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario can't efficiently camp Wario. He weaves through fireballs like it's nothing.

Fireball camping is much more effective on Brinstar, the favorite counterpick of most Wario players and a stage that happens to benefit Mario more (given that it seems a lot of people don't know what stages Mario likes to counterpick, this is something you should know). Wario doesn't have particularly good answers to Mario's platform strategies, and the side platforms are spaced perfectly for controlling space from either side of the stage. Anyone who has played against another Mario on Smashville should be well aware of how annoying Mario is when camping as the platform lingers past one side of the stage. The same strategy works just as well, if not better on Brinstar.

And Mario can actually camp Wario reasonably well without fireballs, if we go by the strict definition of camping as a playstyle that emphasizes low risk. As you're aware, Wario and Metaknight can camp, despite not having true projectiles.

 

[HeroMystic]

We good with Wario and Luigi?

I noticed the discussion everyone had on Luigi was pretty much in my synopsis.

 

[Calebyte]

Yeah I'll add those shortly. No time now though, I'm posting from my phone while sitting in an airplane.

 

[Juushichi]

uh can anyone please tell me how I'm supposed to play peach? she's possibly one of my worst match ups when it comes to characters that aren't "counters" against mario.

From my experience: Fireball, try to mess up their rhythm with an aerial (bair and uair) when they're in cooldown of a move), cape (situational)/ fludd (situational)/ up-B (for turnip glide toss, fair and dair respectively) and be smart with jabs (theirs is faster).

The biggest key to this MU. Don't get sucked into their pace. I will repeat again: Do not get sucked into their pace. I feel like Peach is in the same boat as TL in the sense that if you let them get momentum, they will ride that train until you get your poo pushed in. If you get damaged from low % to like 40-50%, don't freak out. Just calm down and keep your head.

Realize that they will space fair so it auto-cancels and they might jab or grab you afterwards. Also, watch your DI in order not to land in a zone they want you. If you get hit, realize where they can attack from next. Uair has deceptive range, I think their nair beats most of our aerials and fair has sort of deceptive timing.

Save your jumps when you're knocked from offstage and mix up your recovery and your ledge get up. I usually lose to a Peach because I can't get off the ledge correctly (and we're both at high%'s last stock).

If you control the pace, this should always be an even-ish in terms of % and stock count, but if you can't... you might get two or three-stocked.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah I'll add those shortly. No time now though, I'm posting from my phone while sitting in an airplane.

I like your dedication.

 

[Matt07]

Do you guys want to start re-discussing match-up's (one thread per character), and then we can summarize the information in this thread?

I dunno how that sounds to the rest of you guys.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Can we do Snake?

 

[HeroMystic]

Do you guys want to start re-discussing match-up's (one thread per character), and then we can summarize the information in this thread?

I dunno how that sounds to the rest of you guys.

This seems good to me, if only because it'd promote discussion. To be honest this thread is kinda dry.

 

[Matt07]

Can we do Snake?

Alright, sure!

This seems good to me, if only because it'd promote discussion. To be honest this thread is kinda dry.

Yea I agree, we need some metagame discussion around here.