The New Mario Match-Up Index

[Calebyte]

Yes, that would be best. I like the idea of a dedicated thread for each character.

 

[Inferno3044]

If there's gonna be a thread for each character, then there should be table of contents thread that should be stickied.

Although MK is the normal starting character for these kinds of things, Snake isn't a bad idea.

 

[Calebyte]

Since this will be the thread the summaries will be placed in, it could also serve as the table of contents thread. I can just add links to each thread in the top of the OP.

 

[Calebyte]

Started adding MK summary. Snake will follow.

 

[steep]

Just a thought on the MK MU. In all the videos I've been watching it seems that MK can't do much about Mario's jabs once you manage to get in range for them to hit. Just wanted opinions on this. If jabs are relatively safe, then there may be some interesting follow-ups that Mario can do. Thoughts?

 

[Calebyte]

Discuss in the MK Thread plox.

 

[fromundaman]

Oops, I missed this one. Stickied.

 

[Coolwhip]

We need to talk about the samus mu & how to fight thu her legit spacing.

 

[Calebyte]

Samus is fine, anyone else you guys want to discuss?

 

[-Sensei-]

Samus is fine, anyone else you guys want to discuss?

Peach is my vote. She is my curse, as half of my tourney losses are to Peach players.

 

[Inferno3044]

Peach is my vote. She is my curse, as half of my tourney losses are to Peach players.

Just read a previous MU discussion about Peach. Too much drama will come and nothing has really changed. It's 55:45 Peach. You have to fight her very laterally because her dair will eat your shield.

Samus I just say camp the **** out of her. Her zair is really annoying.

 

[fromundaman]

FLUDD is also pretty good vs Samus. Eats her projectiles (except fully charged charge shot) and messes up her spacing pretty badly. It also makes it easy to get in, since you can then punish a landing.

 

[steep]

Hey guys I have been having a little trouble with Olimar. I played Logic at SiiS4 in pools and he whooped me. Hilt also ***** me. Any advice? If there is enough interest, maybe we can start up a whole thread on the Olimar MU.

 

[Calebyte]

I'd be down for an Oli thread, other MU threads have been stagnating recently.

 

[Inferno3044]

I hate the Olimar MU. Luckily, my brother mains Olimar so I really know the MU. I still really hate it. I'll give my bit on the MU.

 

[Inferno3044]

I kinda like the numbers. Shows a little more difference. You can put a key though. I mean a 4:6 and a 35:65 can be seen as disadvantage, but the 35:65 shows that this one is harder. Also, you should put the MU ratio with the first number being Mario, not the second. It's weird to see MK as 70:30 and see Ivysaur as 40:60

 

[steep]

What about a DK thread? I have a lot of experience with that MU, but I would love to see what else I could learn from everyone else!

 

[Coolwhip]

Sooner or later, we'll have to talk about that zzs.

 

[Matador]

I know that match-up pretty well. I can help with that.

 

[Inferno3044]

Caleb, this is your cue to make a Mario vs. DK thread.

 

[Calebyte]

Caleb, this is your cue to make a Mario vs. DK thread.

Threads made for DK and ZSS. Appropriate posts moved from here to their respective threads.

 

[HeroMystic]

I approve of the topic picture.

 

[Calebyte]

Holy ****, Hero's back! Hi Hero!

 

[Juushichi]

Where's the ZSS? Also, can we wrap up some of the ones we've finished and put them in the OP? I think, Peach, Fox, Snake and Samus are about done.

 

[Matador]

I think we need to finish them with the format of each thread's OP.

Matt used to do that for our previous wave of discussions, IIRC.

 

[Calebyte]

Yeah, I need to revamp the OP. Oh and I replaced ZSS with Pika since everyone in the social wanted to do that.

Finishing in the format of each thread's OP is a good idea, I'll get started on that tomorrow.

 

[Sleek Media]

How the heck is Falco only 55:45? He's the worst matchup, as far as I've seen. Everything he has just destroys Mario.

 

[Matador]

How the heck is Falco only 55:45? He's the worst matchup, as far as I've seen. Everything he has just destroys Mario.

You've gotta play him really differently.

If he gets the lead first and it's difficult for you to avoid his grabs, then I can see where you're coming from.

 

[Inferno3044]

Its not 55:45 its 6:4. If a discussion comes up about him I will explain

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, it's clearly 60:40.

 

[Calebyte]

We'll do Falco after Pika and DK start dying down.

 

[Sleek Media]

Okay, I'm looking forward to that explanation. The free 50% on each stock, crazy spot dodge, dair, and laser->usmash are just perfect tools against Mario IMO.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

mash up'b out of his grabs

 

[Matador]

mash up'b out of his grabs

As long as he doesn't know you're doing it and as long as they screw up a bunch on the cg.

Ultimately kinda risky.

 

[Sleek Media]

mash up'b out of his grabs

Never works for me. Their timing has to be off.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Falco I think is 65/35 Falco's favor. It's not completely unwinnable, but it's a pretty depressing matchup overall.

It's basically like fighting Snake, except everything Falco does actually is bordering on completely safe when executed correctly. Falco gets more reward for camping, poking, juggling, and grabbing than you do. You have to basically approach Falco and outdo him in close range, only Falco's close up game is also extremely legit, unlike Snake's which is largely "legit" for his F-tilt doing 21%. He has a 2 frame Jab and the safest Rapid Jabs in the game. While he doesn't exactly have good Jab cancel frame advantage (if Falco tries to Jab1 -> Grab, you can D-smash him in between hits), his good Jab and grab range more than makes up for it. Actually a better comparison is that most of Falco's moves work like yours, but are plain better. Your Smashes are marginally better by virtue of speed and power, though Falco happens to be one of those few characters that just so happens to have an F-smash that outranges your reverse F-smash.

If you're really lucky, you can even the score with an extremely well placed U-tilt (it has to be done when Falco has 9% or it has to be done immediately out of D-throw to properly juggle). Juggling Falco with U-airs can be rewarding, but it's extremely difficult to pull off given that he doesn't risk much by mashing D-airs in between your strings.

Mashing Up-B out of his grabs isn't that good. Mash N-air, which comes out on the same frame.

Things that will help you outplay Falco...autoJabbing/N-airing when he spotdodges, punishing his RCO lag or attempts to work around it (pay attention to his SideB! Especially on stages with sloped terrain, if Falco does not go into his SideB landing animation, he has to deal with RCO lag), SDIing his rapid Jabs to punish with U-air (Flameleon does this a few times in tournament). Crouching under lasers is reliable as well. You can't just hold down the whole match though, you have to actually crouch on reaction to his lasers.

Falco does get utterly **** on when you CP him to Brinstar though, given it's basically his worst stage, and your best stage. Otherwise I would consider Yoshis to be a distance second place contender for where to CP Falco, given the terrain and sometimes the ShyGuys just suck for Falco.

 

[Matador]

Moved from Verm's thread in Tactical Discussion

Look, if Mario's worst matchup is 35:65

with the best and most common character in the game

and Mario's results are terrible

it can mean that either your matchup ratios are off

or all Mario mains are ****ing terrible

That was step-by-step logic there. There's no way all Mario players suck that much, you need to be more realistic about your matchups.

edit: I'm talking about Mario now, but they're definitely not the only character which board claims it has these wonder ratios.

Mario has 60:40s with nearly all of high tier and random bad match-ups scattered throughout middle tier. Mario has a few match-ups in his favor, and the rest are evens.

Add to the fact that the most frequently used character in tournament is harder to deal with than any other match-up we have, and you have your answer for why "Mario's results are horrible".

It has nothing to do with inaccurate ratios. It means that playing Mario in tourney is extremely difficult because you'll rarely ever run into advantageous or even match-ups.

Match-ups only really ever go pass 70:30 when there's something that drastically affects the balance of the match-up. Mario vs D3 with the infinite legal is 70:30.

 

[Flayl]

40:60's are completely winnable by being slightly better than your opponent. Having nothing worse than 40:60's with top tier opponents would mean there would be more Mario "champions", like with Sonic, Ike or Yoshi. I'm not even saying those characters don't have matchups worse than 40:60 because I'm pretty sure they do. Yet they can place decent, something Marios haven't really been able to do.

Having a 40:60 means you're expected to win at least one set out of every three against an opponent of the same skill. 30:70 means at least one out of every 4 sets.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Only KirinBlaze and Boss really are good enough to do anything with Mario, and back in their days, BO X7 and Vato. Most of us have a lot of catching up to do given the technical demand for this character. IMO, as a whole, Mario mains are very underdeveloped as players.

 

[Inferno3044]

40:60's are completely winnable by being slightly better than your opponent. Having nothing worse than 40:60's with top tier opponents would mean there would be more Mario "champions", like with Sonic, Ike or Yoshi. I'm not even saying those characters don't have matchups worse than 40:60 because I'm pretty sure they do. Yet they can place decent, something Marios haven't really been able to do.

Having a 40:60 means you're expected to win at least one set out of every three against an opponent of the same skill. 30:70 means at least one out of every 4 sets.

I disagree with a good amount of those numbers tbh. Those are pretty old numbers. Also to me 3:7 is stupidly hard and you really shouldn't win.