The Nintendo "Off My Chest" thread (BE CIVIL)

[Cyborg Sun]

I think I've come to dislike the idea of a Mario & Sonic crossover not for gameplay issues, but just because it kinda doesn't make sense without out-universe context, even if that context is one everybody knows. Mario and Rabbids is a way more fitting crossover from a strictly in-universe perspective given both series heavily feature creature armies, and primarily tell stories through silent slapstick, I'd even say that's true of the Minions, as limited as the crossovers relation to the Mario movie have been.

no one tell this guy about the olympic game crossovers

...ah crap I blew it

 

[Deleted member]

I wish they put "Kid Icarus: Uprising" on Wii instead of 3DS. The Wii Remote aiming would have helped hugely instead of destroying my touch screen.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I wish they put "Kid Icarus: Uprising" on Wii instead of 3DS. The Wii Remote aiming would have helped hugely instead of destroying my touch screen.

Honestly there a few franchises where a Wii game could have really done them some good. Kid Icarus as you mentioned, a Star Fox game that played like Sin and Punishment with Wii Controller and Nunchuk, an actual Pilotwings sequel and so on. Heck given how well Yoshi turned out in Galaxy 2, they probably could have done the first 3D Yoshi game where you could use his tongue or throw eggs using the Wii remote and had a very solid title.

 

[Perkilator]

Persona 4 would’ve been pretty fun on Wii, too. You could use the Wii Remote to select an enemy, and then select your commands with the Nunchuk. It works pretty well with the in-universe framing device of fighting in a television world.

 

[dream1ng]

I wish they put "Kid Icarus: Uprising" on Wii instead of 3DS. The Wii Remote aiming would have helped hugely instead of destroying my touch screen.

So long as it wouldn't have prevented Uprising getting made, I wish we could've got Factor 5's Kid Icarus game for Wii. That kind of flying, third-person shooter was right in their wheelhouse.

I also wouldn't have minded getting a more mature Pit design (again assuming it didn't change Uprising). It'd be like how Link's design shifts across games. Though obv some of those concept designs are better than others.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Persona 4 would’ve been pretty fun on Wii, too. You could use the Wii Remote to select an enemy, and then select your commands with the Nunchuk. It works pretty well with the in-universe framing device of fighting in a television world.

I'm not sure how this is particularly thematic or intuitive.

I'm not getting the vision here.

 

[MartianSnake]

Persona 4 would’ve been pretty fun on Wii, too. You could use the Wii Remote to select an enemy, and then select your commands with the Nunchuk. It works pretty well with the in-universe framing device of fighting in a television world.

Aren't all console versions of persona TV equally fitting of that framing device?

 

[Perkilator]

I'm not sure how this is particularly thematic or intuitive.

I'm not getting the vision here.

I just figured it would be thematically fitting since the plot involves going into another world through the TV.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I feel bad for how Pit gets treated in "Uprising".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly, I feel bad for how Pit gets treated in "Uprising".

How so?

He's pretty much the de facto hero.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

How so?

He's pretty much the de facto hero.

I think they mean in-game by the cast.

 

[Perkilator]

Based on some of the ideas I've seen for the next Mario Kart based on the 15 or so seconds we've seen of it, I kind of feel like Nintendo fans want certain games to be waaaaaay more ambitious than I think Nintendo themselves would want them to be. To be accurate; I've seen a good amount of people speculate that the next Mario Kart is gonna do away with laps entirely and become an open-world racer, whereas I think the footage we saw is of a track that changes routes each lap (like the Tour city courses in 8 Deluxe).

I'm all for being more ambitious, but as far as I'm concerned, there's such a thing as being too ambitious, especially for a franchise like Mario. You've got to draw some kind of line.

 

[MartianSnake]

Based on some of the ideas I've seen for the next Mario Kart based on the 15 or so seconds we've seen of it, I kind of feel like Nintendo fans want certain games to be waaaaaay more ambitious than I think Nintendo themselves would want them to be. To be accurate; I've seen a good amount of people speculate that the next Mario Kart is gonna do away with laps entirely and become an open-world racer, whereas I think the footage we saw is of a track that changes routes each lap (like the Tour city courses in 8 Deluxe).

I'm all for being more ambitious, but as far as I'm concerned, there's such a thing as being too ambitious, especially for a franchise like Mario. You've got to draw some kind of line.

I've seen people say "ohh what if you can get out of your car and walk around" it's crazy man

 

[BonafideFella]

Based on some of the ideas I've seen for the next Mario Kart based on the 15 or so seconds we've seen of it, I kind of feel like Nintendo fans want certain games to be waaaaaay more ambitious than I think Nintendo themselves would want them to be. To be accurate; I've seen a good amount of people speculate that the next Mario Kart is gonna do away with laps entirely and become an open-world racer, whereas I think the footage we saw is of a track that changes routes each lap (like the Tour city courses in 8 Deluxe).

I'm all for being more ambitious, but as far as I'm concerned, there's such a thing as being too ambitious, especially for a franchise like Mario. You've got to draw some kind of line.

VRY speculative but i think that’s more to do w/ the trailer’s presentation too — ending on that giant shot of the highway expanse

does that necessarily indicate it’s open-world? absolutely not in the least, and i think the loudest voices in the conversation are suggesting it more for internet traffic n clicks than for anything else

it elicits an interesting split between marketing few seconds of a game and say , of a film — a wide shot teaser for a movie would be par for the course when indicating its content , but for a game , such a shot implies GAMEPLAY functionality rather than just a satisfying visual. it’s curious stuff!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've seen people say "ohh what if you can get out of your car and walk around" it's crazy man

I know that in Kirby Air Ride, you can jump off your Air Ride machine in City Trial (unless you're playing as King Dedede or Meta Knight). But outside of that, you're pretty much committed to the Air Ride machine that you've chosen to ride on.

 

[Perkilator]

I think limited voice acting might work out pretty well for the mainline Pokémon games. It keeps the cinematic cutscenes from feeling as empty as they do while also having the benefit of not taking up too much storage space.

 

[MartianSnake]

I think limited voice acting might work out pretty well for the mainline Pokémon games. It keeps the cinematic cutscenes from feeling as empty as they do while also having the benefit of not taking up too much storage space.

There's been way too many cutscenes in the past two gens that just scream "this is where voice acting would go if we had it"

Though at this point, it'd settle for ace attorney style blip sounds that line up with the letters and words in text boxes, the fact the text boxes are just a singular blip with each one oddly adds to the cheap feel the games can have

 

[BritishGuy54]

I do believe many Nintendo fans aren’t fully prepared for what the Switch 2 era will bring to the table.

• Wii Nostalgia - We’ve seen tricklings of Wii nostalgia already, such as some fan-favourite stages or characters reappearing in many Switch games. With a nearly 20 year old console over 100 million strong, Nintendo knows that nostalgia for the Wii kids will be strong. Ports of Wii games will become more common.
• Cementing of newer series - With the Switch 2, and by proxy, crossover opportunities in Smash Bros., Mario Kart, and the like, I believe the biggest winners will be series such as Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Xenoblade, and Splatoon cementing themselves into the core and integral Nintendo lineup of games, and Smash inclusions.
• Switch 2 ports of Switch 1 games - I think we will see this. With game development likely being tighter nowadays, Nintendo will be looking at some Switch games to spruce up and give another go on Switch 2. But I would expect these games to be more… hardcore. So, not really Mario Kart or Smash.
• Strengthening of IP - With the success of the Mario Movie, and rumours of future movies and TV projects, Nintendo will likely want their IP strengthened and future-proofed. Expect more multimedia projects in the Switch 2 era.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

• Wii Nostalgia - We’ve seen tricklings of Wii nostalgia already, such as some fan-favourite stages or characters reappearing in many Switch games. With a nearly 20 year old console over 100 million strong, Nintendo knows that nostalgia for the Wii kids will be strong. Ports of Wii games will become more common.

Not again.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Mario X Peach not being an official ship (anymore) is awesome. It's a really nice message for kids that romance isn't a reward, and it makes a good contrast when Bowser is shown to be a bit creepy like in the CGI movie.

Continuing off of this take, I think that if Nintendo are to phase out damsel-in-distress plots, Odyssey is the best possible bow-out for it - it involves an actual wedding; you get to see what Peach does with her freedom in the post-game; and the ending - if you don't interpret it in a dishonest way - clearly shows that she trusts him to board the ship even as a platonic friend.

 

[Perkilator]

I don't think people fully realize just how much potential there is with Switch 2's mouse mode. This could not potentially reach out to the PC crowd with experiences that were originally best suited for PC gaming, but also allow for way more creative gameplay styles just from Nintendo's IP's alone. Arlo sums it up pretty well for me:

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I do find it weird that people are so adamant on making it look like Mario 64 is the first 3D platformer, but don't really care whether or not Donkey Kong is the first platformer - that's also a factually wrong statement, but there's way less counter-examples in comparison, and the one there is - Space Panic - is a tiny bit more ambigious as a "platformer" per say since you can't jump. Is it console war residue? It's always console war residue, isn't it...

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I do find it weird that people are so adamant on making it look like Mario 64 is the first 3D platformer, but don't really care whether or not Donkey Kong is the first platformer - that's also a factually wrong statement, but there's way less counter-examples in comparison, and the one there is - Space Panic - is a tiny bit more ambigious as a "platformer" per say since you can't jump. Is it console war residue? It's always console war residue, isn't it...

Couple of reasons come to mind. Super Mario 64 was transformative to a lot of people that played it, and the game could be said to be pretty influential for how movement in 3D worked (even though it as noted wasn't the first). There's a vested emotional interest in really building up the significant nature of SM64 because it was so meaningful to them. Donkey Kong has a different issue in that those most interested in it to argue its place... are the ones most likely to know the history and cite something like Space Panic first.

Beyond the fact that pre-NES Nintendo gaming is a haze to lot of fans anyway, the 1981 Donkey Kong just isn't something that many people are deeply into, at least not the point of debating its merits in the first platformer space. Arcade fans like it but have loads of games from other companies to also discuss, Mario fans are aware of its historical contest while viewing it as far removed from the 2D SMB games they like, and the Donkey Kong fandom respect its notability but are far more invested in the Country games. Whether or not it was first just doesn't really matter to a lot of the gaming audience. (Heck there's far more visible excitement at DK94 getting added to NSO yesterday than for any other non-Country Donkey Kong title being put up, the 1981 arcade game included, which tells you where the interest is.)

It's like how a somewhat learned Disney animation fan views the Alice Comedies from the 1920s; however much they recognize their significance, there's not be that many that would get particularly impassioned if there was an article debunking its significance as a live action/animation hybrid.

 

[SharkLord]

Couple of reasons come to mind. Super Mario 64 was transformative to a lot of people that played it, and the game could be said to be pretty influential for how movement in 3D worked (even though it as noted wasn't the first). There's a vested emotional interest in really building up the significant nature of SM64 because it was so meaningful to them. Donkey Kong has a different issue in that those most interested in it to argue its place... are the ones most likely to know the history and cite something like Space Panic first.

Beyond the fact that pre-NES Nintendo gaming is a haze to lot of fans anyway, the 1981 Donkey Kong just isn't something that many people are deeply into, at least not the point of debating its merits in the first platformer space. Arcade fans like it but have loads of games from other companies to also discuss, Mario fans are aware of its historical contest while viewing it as far removed from the 2D SMB games they like, and the Donkey Kong fandom respect its notability but are far more invested in the Country games. Whether or not it was first just doesn't really matter to a lot of the gaming audience. (Heck there's far more visible excitement at DK94 getting added to NSO yesterday than for any other non-Country Donkey Kong title being put up, the 1981 arcade game included, which tells you where the interest is.)

It's like how a somewhat learned Disney animation fan views the Alice Comedies from the 1920s; however much they recognize their significance, there's not be that many that would get particularly impassioned if there was an article debunking its significance as a live action/animation hybrid.

I'll also add that when many fans think of platformers, they'll think of sidescrollers. Donkey Kong '81 is a platformer by definition, but it's not a sidescroller, so it comes off as rather unconventional compared to what most people think of for platformers (i.e. Sonic, Mega Man, Castlevania, Kirby, etc.)

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

To somewhat spin-off of the above point, it is funny and a little sad that there's been a decently active subseries like Mario vs DK that's largely a faithful continuation of classic arcade titles with a consistency of releases in some ways more impressive than what other first parties have had... and it goes largely unnoticed because puzzle platformers are so niche and DK has become far more defined by the Country series to most major Nintendo fans. I mean not many golden age arcade games can be said to have modern games paying such strong tribute to them (outside Pac-Man) but even with Nintendo's clear care and interest in them, they just don't seem to land with much impact in the collective memory.

Not that any fan should be compelled to support a series mind you, just that for a company that is lambasted for not getting new games for certain select IP's, it is interesting that a modestly successful one like Mario vs DK going for so long has been met with the cultural equivalent of a shrug, possibly because it wears its roots as an arcade puzzle platformer so blatantly.

 

[Perkilator]

Genuine question: would asset reuse have allowed for more characters in the respective rosters of Mario Party Superstars and Super Mario Party Jamboree? Because that’s what I would’ve liked to do.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I hope future Mario movies show more of the human realm instead of just sticking to the Mushroom Kingdom. I find reverse-isekai to be way more interesting than the other way around, and there's a bit of seed-planting in the film relating to a sort of semi-shared universe with mostly NES games I think is way more reasonable than a Smash movie. Plus, I think plumbing - being manual labor that involves a lot of mess - is easy to make into a fun cartoon thing for kids, so it wouldn't be like the live action Garfield movies or whatever where it just cuts to people talking about taxes in a room for 5 minutes.

Genuine question: would asset reuse have allowed for more characters in the respective rosters of Mario Party Superstars and Super Mario Party Jamboree? Because that’s what I would’ve liked to do.

I think an obvious one would be power-up variants and more enemies - both of which I'm all for. IIRC all modern Mario games reuse a core set of assets with minor stylistic tweaks, but I could be wrong on that.

 

[Perkilator]

I’m starting to think Smash fans are pretty much “executive meddling” levels of tone deaf when it comes to speculation.

 

[MartianSnake]

I’m starting to think Smash fans are pretty much “executive meddling” levels of tone deaf when it comes to speculation.

I'm interested in this perspective, can you elaborate on what this means?

 

[Perkilator]

I'm interested in this perspective, can you elaborate on what this means?

Basically, just for a couple examples, things like only caring about sales figures and relevance, and making up reasons for why certain things absolutely will or won’t happen.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I’m starting to think Smash fans are pretty much “executive meddling” levels of tone deaf when it comes to speculation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: fan demand and executive meddling are literally the same thing. There is no distinction, it's the same fundimental idea, interferring with someone else's project's development from a distance with the intent to maximize sales. They're value neutral, at least in terms of effect on a work's quality if not morally, but the fact of the matter is that if one's inherently bad, the other's bad; and if one's inherently good, the other's good.

 

[Opossum]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: fan demand and executive meddling are literally the same thing. There is no distinction, it's the same fundimental idea, interferring with someone else's project's development from a distance with the intent to maximize sales. They're value neutral, at least in terms of effect on a work's quality if not morally, but the fact of the matter is that if one's inherently bad, the other's bad; and if one's inherently good, the other's good.

This is a genuinely wild and arguably factually incorrect take.

Power dynamics play an absolutely massive role in the distinction here. You, as a creator, can choose to ultimately ignore fan demand because the fans aren't the ones hanging your employment on a thread while brandishing a pair of scissors in the other hand. The same cannot be said for executive interference: if you ignore something your boss tells you, at best you lose your job, and at worst you get blacklisted from the industry entirely.

Fan demand is value neutral. Executive meddling is inherently evil because those in positions of power and who are, presumably, far richer than you are are also inherently evil. You don't become rich by being "value neutral."

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This is a genuinely wild and arguably factually incorrect take.

Power dynamics play an absolutely massive role in the distinction here. You, as a creator, can choose to ultimately ignore fan demand because the fans aren't the ones hanging your employment on a thread while brandishing a pair of scissors in the other hand. The same cannot be said for executive interference: if you ignore something your boss tells you, at best you lose your job, and at worst you get blacklisted from the industry entirely.

Fan demand is value neutral. Executive meddling is inherently evil because those in positions of power and who are, presumably, far richer than you are are also inherently evil. You don't become rich by being "value neutral."

I distinctly addressed the moral aspect as not being what my post was about, as that also wasn't what the post I was responding to was about either:

they're value neutral, at least in terms of effect on a work's quality if not morally

The post I was responding to used "tone deaf" (in the sense of not knowing what would be best for the game), not "evil"; and I used "bad" and "good", not "good" and "evil". I was making that distinction primarily because factually a lot of famous films do - like it or not (I sure don't) - owe their acclaim to changes made by corporate. If I was considering morality, I wouldn't be as much as considering this comparison at all. You are 100% correct that major studios are evil and there aren't many moral issues with fan demand (the only one that comes to mind being compensation, which is only really an issue when official platforms are provided). Perhaps an "and" in place of the "if" could've clarified things, I dunno.

Additionally, appealing to fan demand - in the modern era - IS what executives want. That's what gets headlines and strengthens brand loyalty. There is far more overlap than there was back in the days when "it's what the network wants, why bother to complain?" was considered a funny theme song lyric.

 

[SharkLord]

This is a genuinely wild and arguably factually incorrect take.

Power dynamics play an absolutely massive role in the distinction here. You, as a creator, can choose to ultimately ignore fan demand because the fans aren't the ones hanging your employment on a thread while brandishing a pair of scissors in the other hand. The same cannot be said for executive interference: if you ignore something your boss tells you, at best you lose your job, and at worst you get blacklisted from the industry entirely.

Fan demand is value neutral. Executive meddling is inherently evil because those in positions of power and who are, presumably, far richer than you are are also inherently evil. You don't become rich by being "value neutral."

This explains it pretty well so I'll just re-highlight this for emphasis. Executive meddling implies that something is being forced upon the devs, oftentimes right in the middle of the development process and throwing their original plans out the window. It's also not necessarily synonymous with fan appeal; They might instead mandate that a character can't act a certain way to fit the brand (i.e. How Sonic was and to a degree still is treated in the comics), or request a character or design be implemented from a recent installment for cross-promotion (Which Sakurai feared would happen with Pac-Man's Ghostly Adventures design).

Sakurai's stated that he does some research on popularity in advance, takes it into account when settling his project plan, and sticks to that set plan pretty rigidly afterwards. Fan demand isn't derailing his project, because he chooses to reference it while drafting it up. Furthermore, he doesn't scramble to change things based on fan outcry mid-development, so after the plan is solidified fan demand won't interfere.

In this scenario, fan demand is in no way close to executive meddling. Fan demand is just a suggestion Sakurai chooses to consider; Executive meddling is something he didn't intend for and has no choice in the matter.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Given the seeming heavy emphasis of the Mouse Con for Switch 2, beyond the elevation of various old PC games, I'd like to see various Nintendo IP's develop spin-offs more oriented around mouse controls. Something like a Zelda point and click adventure game with the princess herself as the talking protagonist and leaning into the lighter/more whimsy side of the series again would be really fun.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

While there's a lot of valid criticisms of the NES and SNES fandoms, I would argue they have the best mentality about their respective consoles' libraries. When I see people discuss those consoles; and make throwback tributes and hacks, there's a rainbow of games represented - good, bad, iconic, cult classics, first party, multiplatform, bootleg, franchise, adaptation, generic - it feels like everybody's own individual NES or SNES experience gets into a melting pot rather than being consumed by Mario and Mega Man, and people are willing to give a whirl to weird games they either didn't play or didn't like as a kid. I can't say for certain, I wasn't there, but I was there for the Wii and DS, and all the Wii-era nostalgia talk feels very inauthentic to me because it's just so consumed by the same few games, most of which were popular moreso with established Nintendo fans than general audiences, and it kinda looks like Switch discussion is heading the same path. Speaking as someone who had both, the Wii without Ninjabread Man is incomplete, the Wii without WarioWare Smooth Moves can be a complete story.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This is probably me being British speaking, but a lot of discourse over how iconic certain Nintendo IPs are (especially in a Smash context) feels a bit like "game 10 people played vs. game 5 people played". I don't think the gap between say, Metroid and Chibi-Robo is as significant as people believe.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This is probably me being British speaking, but a lot of discourse over how iconic certain Nintendo IPs are (especially in a Smash context) feels a bit like "game 10 people played vs. game 5 people played". I don't think the gap between say, Metroid and Chibi-Robo is as significant as people believe.

I mean, one franchise has several million seller games and has impacted the industry so much it gave an entire subgenre half of its name (Metroidvania). Metroid was also a big feminist cornerstone in early gaming.

The other franchise might not have hit one million sales for the entire franchise and had such little impact it straight up died. I love Chibi-Robo (the first game at least), but it isn't comparable.

You could argue that sales don't matter, but surely you can see the rest of Metroid's impact. Metroid isn't one of Nintendo's essentials like Mario, Zelda or Pokemon, but it is one they value a lot. I gotta turn this around on you. I could make a list on how iconic Metroid is. And yet, even though I've played most of the games in the franchise, I can't in good faith argue that Chibi-Robo is iconic... at all. What makes Chibi-Robo iconic? It didn't impact the industry the way Metroid did.

 

[AlRex]

Metroid/Samus is like the Wonder Woman of Nintendo, relative to Mario and Link/Legend of Zelda being the Superman and Batman, if that makes any sense. It’s ostensibly as important, Samus/Diana are well-known female characters and usually considered the heroine of their respective company, they get some material…but relative to the other two, not as much, and not as much about them is as well-known to the public at large as the other two. People calling Samus herself “Metroid” (albeit Link has a similar problem) and people not really knowing many WW villains compared to Superman and Batman, among other things. It is what it is.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Samus & Metroid by extension has been in an odd place because (at least since fans recognized the quality of Super Metroid) it was one of the most respected Nintendo franchises in the West, even if it wasn't the most popular.

It had a sort of novelty in the first couple of years of its existence as one of the major pillars of Nintendo alongside Zelda and Mario, hence why elements from all three ended up in stuff like the early cartoons. However, the Kongs and Yoshi somewhat supplanted it and LoZ for a couple of years, with that only really changing in 1998 when Pokémon took off outside of Japan and Ocarina of Time bringing back its franchise in a major way. Metroid essentially being in hibernation after 1994 and until 2002 meant it simply lacked the chance to really keep its relative spot.

However, the growing reputation of the SNES game strongly build up goodwill towards it and the growing sentiment about Nintendo being too kiddy meant its status as the darker/more mature first party IP (with Zelda only being its real peer in that sense) did serve to elevate how well regarded it was. Prime's release in 2002 as quasi-FPS game was not only meaningful because of its quality, but also because it gave the Gamecube some credibility in the midst of a gaming zeitgeist shift that often saw Nintendo's games being seen as outdated. In an era of a Mario Sunshine with goofy cutscenes, Zelda as a cell shaded cartoon, DK doing bongo games with children's songs, and Fire Emblem still yet to go big in the West. the Prime games were a lifeline to fans that could point to as being demonstrative of the range the company had outside child friendly titles.

Moreover, with the Metroidvania genre slowly gaining appreciation and games (particularly Castlevania ones) getting released in it, what the series had pulled off was becoming more and more recognized, with games like Zero Mission even managing to improve ambitious, but flawed titles like Metroid 1. To use an admittedly dubious metaphor, it had become a more successful Velvet Underground to some, lacking the major numbers of other Nintendo series, but remarkably influential to those that did experience it.

The passion of its fans and the impact it had is why Other M became infamous, how Tropical Freeze received such an initial backlash when being announced, and explains the extent of the rancor with Federation Force. Samus had developed a respect that made the controversial portrayal in Other M become known outside even the fandom. The credibility the Prime trilogy developed among journalists led to articles decrying Retro developing "another damn Donkey Kong game". The sentiment among even broader Nintendo fans that the series warranted another mainline entry made a Chibi spin-off with Samus seemingly not in it an entirely easy target for hate and ridicule. And of course, such a context explains why Prime 4 was met with such strong approval in many circles.

tl;dr Metroid has long been enshrined in gaming culture even if the more casual/non-Nintendo fans tended to respect the series more often than they bought the games.