Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[ZephyrZ]

Do you think this is real???

I stopped taking it seriously at "my dad works at Nintendo",

 

[Wintropy]

I'm sorry for this because its not the topic but I've a question.

Do you think this is real???

http://mydadworksatnintendo.tumblr.com/post/95847055746/hello-nintendo-fans-i-have-some-inside

Does SSB4 make Kid Icarus more popular??

As above. Nothing that starts with "my dad works at Nintendo" should be taken seriously. That and it suggests Zelda U footage will be displayed, when it's already been confirmed that it won't be displayed at E3.

The lack of any new titles and the blatant fanservice titles are also points against it. Nothing to see here, move along.

 

[_Darkpit_]

Okay thanks a lot ^^

 

[DavemanCozy]

Where does one share a matchup thread around here?

The MU thread is locked, but click the above link to join us, we began discussing the MU vs Pit and the Latino Lucifer in the Fox boards.
vs
vs

 

[CHOMPY]

Did you guys know that 3-Hit jab to Usmash is a thing?

 

[ReRaze]

Did you guys know that 3-Hit jab to Usmash is a thing?

Is it a true combo? or a mixup

 

[LancerStaff]

Did you guys know that 3-Hit jab to Usmash is a thing?

Sorta. Comboing a lvl 50 Pit amiibo is kinda like comboing metal Bowser. What's the % range on a normal character?

 

[CHOMPY]

Its not a true combo necessarily. If you can buffer the usmash after the 3-hit jab, it can really work wonders. With just enough hitstun and knockback, I believe the combo works around 20-40%.

 

[LancerStaff]

Should've posted this all here first but whateves.

Borrowing a friend's GC adaptor and I'm messing around with Wavebirds. For those who don't know, a Wavebird GC controller can be sync'd with multiple ports and can essentially become Ice Climbers mode for any two characters. This means I can actively compare frame data between both Pit and Pittwo and different custom moves.

Normal moves are the same, no surprise. As are the default specials.

Funnily enough, the taunts take the exact same amount of time to do.

Arrow speed on default is basically the same, but Pit's last longer and thus go further.

First interesting difference I've found is that Dark Pit's Guiding Bow can be charged a moment longer then Pit's. Any other level of charge has the same frame data. Pit's definitely go faster, and again further.

Piercing Bow can also be charged a moment longer with DP. Pit's last a few frames longer and go very slightly further. Pittwo's are superior for the damage.

Sadly, no other custom move has any noticeable speed difference.

Default vs Guiding, Guiding fires a few frames sooner but has noticeably more endlag. Piercing is obviously slower.

Electroshock and Quickshock have roughly the same endlag, but it's hard to tell because of the start-up. Interception is overall longer then default. Testing lag on hit is difficult...

Power = Striking >>>>>> Breezy in terms of lag when hitting the ground.

Guardian and Amplifing have equal start-up but Guardian wins in end-lag. Amplifing can be held out much longer. Impact has noticeably more start-up and similar end-lag to default, but has to be "held out" for a moment making it slower then the shortest default.

 

[Wa_Black]

Should've posted this all here first but whateves.

Borrowing a friend's GC adaptor and I'm messing around with Wavebirds. For those who don't know, a Wavebird GC controller can be sync'd with multiple ports and can essentially become Ice Climbers mode for any two characters. This means I can actively compare frame data between both Pit and Pittwo and different custom moves.

Normal moves are the same, no surprise. As are the default specials.

Funnily enough, the taunts take the exact same amount of time to do.

Arrow speed on default is basically the same, but Pit's last longer and thus go further.

First interesting difference I've found is that Dark Pit's Guiding Bow can be charged a moment longer then Pit's. Any other level of charge has the same frame data. Pit's definitely go faster, and again further.

Piercing Bow can also be charged a moment longer with DP. Pit's last a few frames longer and go very slightly further. Pittwo's are superior for the damage.

Sadly, no other custom move has any noticeable speed difference.

Default vs Guiding, Guiding fires a few frames sooner but has noticeably more endlag. Piercing is obviously slower.

Electroshock and Quickshock have roughly the same endlag, but it's hard to tell because of the start-up. Interception is overall longer then default. Testing lag on hit is difficult...

Power = Striking >>>>>> Breezy in terms of lag when hitting the ground.

Guardian and Amplifing have equal start-up but Guardian wins in end-lag. Amplifing can be held out much longer. Impact has noticeably more start-up and similar end-lag to default, but has to be "held out" for a moment making it slower then the shortest default.

could you make them side b each other, so we can see if one has more armor?

 

[LancerStaff]

could you make them side b each other, so we can see if one has more armor?

Super Armor is Super Armor. It has strict rules and isn't dependent on the move. Only thing that's unique is Bowser's walking armor. The angels' armor is tied to the animation and gives out right when they swing. It's the same.

 

[Wa_Black]

Super Armor is Super Armor. It has strict rules and isn't dependent on the move. Only thing that's unique is Bowser's walking armor. The angels' armor is tied to the animation and gives out right when they swing. It's the same.

So are you saying that with the exception of bowser's walking armor all super armor moves are active for the same amount of frames? I know for a fact that the armor isn't instant because I've been hit out of the start up of my move many times.

 

[LancerStaff]

So are you saying that with the exception of bowser's walking armor all super armor moves are active for the same amount of frames? I know for a fact that the armor isn't instant because I've been hit out of the start up of my move many times.

No, the actual strength of the armor. Frames I believe is the same... Somebody looked through the data a while back for us.

 

[CELTiiC]

Hey guys! DK boards are currently discussing the DK vs Dark Pit matchup and would love to get some input from some Dark Pit mains on how the matchup plays out with or without customs.

http://smashboards.com/threads/monk...atchup-thread-wave-2-falcon-charizard.396228/

 

[TriTails]

I'm curious on what Pit(too) mains think on how the angles fares against Luigi.

 

[ReRaze]

I'm curious on what Pit(too) mains think on how the angles fares against Luigi.

It's fairly even. It's hard for luigi to get in with Pit's long range disjoints (especially as luigi gets pushed back easily) but when he does he gives the angels hell.

 

[TriTails]

Really? It's that simple? Luigi mains had think this MU is in the angels' favor.

And aside from smashes and maybe B-air, I don't see any of Pit's moves pushes Luigi far (I don't even know if F-smash is safe on Luigi's shield), especially when Luigi has Cyclone, but I'll need to test them beforehand.

 

[W1m0]

Really? It's that simple? Luigi mains had think this MU is in the angels' favor.

And aside from smashes and maybe B-air, I don't see any of Pit's moves pushes Luigi far (I don't even know if F-smash is safe on Luigi's shield), especially when Luigi has Cyclone, but I'll need to test them beforehand.

I'm pretty sure in most situations on luigi, f tilt is safe on shield.

 

[Hoenn]

Just posting here for information and updates

How does pit deal with luigi's fireball approaches?

 

[TriTails]

Use your bow and guide it over the Fireball and hit Luigi.

Though, Fireball has a very low commitment. He'll probably just say 'Bleep this, I'm dashing/shielding'. He usually outprojectiles you, so I don't recommend fighting his Fireballs at midrange.

 

[Hoenn]

Pit's arrow has a lot of endlag, are you sure that is a good option?
I am no expert, but I feel like that would put me at the disadvantage

 

[ReRaze]

Pit's arrow has a lot of endlag, are you sure that is a good option?
I am no expert, but I feel like that would put me at the disadvantage

If you do a jumping arrow properly, you can auto cancel the lag so its safe. Although I dont really see how luigi's fireballs are a big deal, their slow, short ranged and have like 0 hitstun. Just jump over them or something or shield them all, the luigi will get bored eventually

 

[TriTails]

If you do a jumping arrow properly, you can auto cancel the lag so its safe. Although I dont really see how luigi's fireballs are a big deal, their slow, short ranged and have like 0 hitstun. Just jump over them or something or shield them all, the luigi will get bored eventually

: U FIREBALLS ARE 2 SLOW!
: You shielded/jumped one Fireball? Have another.

Nope, no Luigi will ever get bored of spamming Fireballs. You jump over them? Have a floating Fireball. You shield? Get grabbed. You spotdodge? Cyclone'd. You PS? Have another to PS while I slowly make my way to you and Cyclone you to the face once I'm close enough.

Luigi's Fireballs are very strong projectiles. Hell, even more than your own arrows or Mario's own Fireballs. They have very low commitment, deals 5% (6% at midrange), incredibly low end lag, they float, and basically create a fiery wall if the Luigi player wants to.

And I know what people might think, but Guardian Orbitars are rather slow to execute, so even if you can reflect one, he'll cancel it with another, and you won't gain any benefit from it anyway.

Pit's arrow has a lot of endlag, are you sure that is a good option?
I am no expert, but I feel like that would put me at the disadvantage

Don't do it at midrange. His dashing speed is slow enough to not be able too punish you if you do it far enough. Or do a jumping arrow, like Xacer said.

 

[ReRaze]

: U FIREBALLS ARE 2 SLOW!
: You shielded/jumped one Fireball? Have another.

Nope, no Luigi will ever get bored of spamming Fireballs. You jump over them? Have a floating Fireball. You shield? Get grabbed. You spotdodge? Cyclone'd. You PS? Have another to PS while I slowly make my way to you and Cyclone you to the face once I'm close enough.

Luigi's Fireballs are very strong projectiles. Hell, even more than your own arrows or Mario's own Fireballs. They have very low commitment, deals 5% (6% at midrange), incredibly low end lag, they float, and basically create a fiery wall if the Luigi player wants to.

And I know what people might think, but Guardian Orbitars are rather slow to execute, so even if you can reflect one, he'll cancel it with another, and you won't gain any benefit from it anyway.


Don't do it at midrange. His dashing speed is slow enough to not be able too punish you if you do it far enough. Or do a jumping arrow, like Xacer said.

You forgot to mention that pit has multiple jumps and as such can approach you from the air, you cant keep a wall of fireballs continously in the air as you have to land after 1 or 2 (Not really sure how practical this is though since I generally like to fight luigi close to the ground).

@ Hoenn You can camp at the ledge with arrows (because you outrange fireballs) and when luigi comes closer just use pit's stupidly fast dash attack, if this conditions them to start shielding mix it up with a grab too. Thing to note is pit's dash attack is fast enough to beat/clank with some projectiles and still manage to hit the opponent, this works against a megaman zoning with lemons as well, just requires good timing. I'm not sure if luigi's fireballs are transcendant or not but regardless a trade off with dash attack vs fire ball is in Pit's favour. Also im pretty sure all of pit's aerieals beat fireballs (and lemons too) so you can approach with that (they also autocancels after a short hop so no lag). You can use fair if you want to space a hit but nair lasts longer and can bring you in close fore a followup.

Guardian orbitars are a terrible option against luigi's fireballs please dont use them.

 

[W1m0]

You forgot to mention that pit has multiple jumps and as such can approach you from the air, you cant keep a wall of fireballs continously in the air as you have to land after 1 or 2 (Not really sure how practical this is though since I generally like to fight luigi close to the ground).

@ Hoenn You can camp at the ledge with arrows (because you outrange fireballs) and when luigi comes closer just use pit's stupidly fast dash attack, if this conditions them to start shielding mix it up with a grab too. Thing to note is pit's dash attack is fast enough to beat/clank with some projectiles and still manage to hit the opponent, this works against a megaman zoning with lemons as well, just requires good timing. I'm not sure if luigi's fireballs are transcendant or not but regardless a trade off with dash attack vs fire ball is in Pit's favour. Also im pretty sure pit's nair eats fireballs (and lemons too) so you can approach with that (it also autocancels after a short hop so no lag).

Guardian orbitars are a terrible option against luigi's fireballs please dont use them.

Since you mentioned nair, in case anyone didn't know if you auto cancel nair do down tilt the second you hit the floor and it covers your opponents aerial option and and most ground options, especially grab.


(And I believe just a short hop fair approach could beat out fireball)

 

[ReRaze]

Since you mentioned nair, in case anyone didn't know if you auto cancel nair do down tilt the second you hit the floor and it covers your opponents aerial option and and most ground options, especially grab.


(And I believe just a short hop fair approach could beat out fireball)

You dont have to commit to dtilt (if thy decide to continue shielding they can punish you). Jab is more reliable than dtilt in this situation since it covers spot dodges, applies more shield pressure so they cant shield grab (like they can with dtilt), is faster (I believe jab is a frame or so faster than dtilt) , covers more area and does more damage for basically the same knockback and trajectory. You can also mix things up using jab 1 and 2 then grabbing since they'll be expecting a third and keep shielding.

Also all of pits aerials beat out fireball and auto cancel. nair just lasts the longest and can technically protect you from more fireballs it also covers your entire body, fair has quite a thin reach and so you could possibly be hit by a fire ball under or on top of you if you miss.

 

[TriTails]

Wait, I'm lost. Can Pit AC his aerials out of SHFF? So you basically enter a fast-fall during the aerial, will that AC? Or do you must not FF for it to autocancels?

 

[Smash_Pariah56]

Wait, I'm lost. Can Pit AC his aerials out of SHFF? So you basically enter a fast-fall during the aerial, will that AC? Or do you must not FF for it to autocancels?

@ TriTails I have been playing Dark Pit for awhile now and you can't fast fall Nair or Fair to AC. Not that it matters to much since Nair's hit box covers Dark Pit through almost the entire short hop and Fair hits a decent distance in front of you, so your pretty damn safe to let fly the buzzsaw blades so long as you AC them.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wait, I'm lost. Can Pit AC his aerials out of SHFF? So you basically enter a fast-fall during the aerial, will that AC? Or do you must not FF for it to autocancels?

You can SHFF all of Pit's aerials. Only saves a frame or two on Dair and Uair though. You can get something significant out of Fair. I think...

Well, I tested the autocancel frames on all of Pit's aerials by full hopping an aerial onto one of the slanted platform on the beginning of Skyloft. The higher I could go, the sooner the aerial AC'd.

 

[Dr. Snakes]

Well, you can kinda SHFF Nair. You have to wait until right after he stop spinning his blades, since landing at that point will result in an autocancel.

 

[ReRaze]

Pit can full hop fast fall auto cancel his moves although the timing is different for each move e.g Nair you have to wait a sec after using the move at the peak of the jump then fast falling, this lets you land with a hitbox and without lag making it very difficult to punish.

 

[W1m0]

Out of curiosity from a pit main, what is the appeal of dark pit? Is it just personal preference because pit has better everything that is different about the two.

 

[SoulRed12]

Out of curiosity from a pit main, what is the appeal of dark pit? Is it just personal preference because pit has better everything that is different about the two.

The arms are each good for different reasons but other than that for all the other differences Pit's got an edge. Well...

 

[ReRaze]

Out of curiosity from a pit main, what is the appeal of dark pit? Is it just personal preference because pit has better everything that is different about the two.

- Dark pit is the second most badass character in the game (after mewtwo)
- Dark pit's ftilt jablocks and can be used to set up jablocks
- Dark pit's arrows have slightly more priority than pit's so they could possibly beat out certain projectiles/attacks that pit's cant (although very limited, it hardly makes a difference and pit could just curve around other projectiles anyway).
- Bad DI against the electroshock arm is more devastating than bad DI against upperdash arm especially near the ledge and on stages with high ceilings.
- Dark pit is better for dealing with luma and heavy characters (Ganondorf, King Dedede, Link, Captain Falcon) since neither electroshock nor upperdash will be killing them anytime soon, electroshock just leaves them in a worse position, preferably offstage because most heavies dont have good recoveries.

 

[Tito Maas]

- Dark pit is the second most badass character in the game (after mewtwo)
- Dark pit's ftilt jablocks and can be used to set up jablocks
- Dark pit's arrows have slightly more priority than pit's so they could possibly beat out certain projectiles/attacks that pit's cant (although very limited, it hardly makes a difference and pit could just curve around other projectiles anyway).
- Bad DI against the electroshock arm is more devastating than bad DI against upperdash arm especially near the ledge and on stages with high ceilings.
- Dark pit is better for dealing with luma and heavy characters (Ganondorf, King Dedede, Link, Captain Falcon) since neither electroshock nor upperdash will be killing them anytime soon, electroshock just leaves them in a worse position, preferably offstage because most heavies dont have good recoveries.

I guess no one has acknowledged it yet but I really feel like the Upperdash Arm was buffed. Not sure if I can say the same for Electroshock but despite being a Dark Pit uuser, Pit's new Upperdash makes him a completely better character for me nowadays.

Only reason I use DP is because he's the most badass character in the game, and for some reason I win more with him than I do regular Pit.

 

[W1m0]

I had an epic play on for glory today and would like everyone to see it!
http://youtu.be/ZS39JY2Vq48

 

[Tito Maas]

Anyone else hate the fact that the Upperdash/Electroarm reflect projectiles? Not only do they reflect items at a completely useless angle, but they stop your momentum and set you up for the easy punish.

Super armor should already be enough tfor Pit1/Pittoo to slice through witout stalling; the reflection just seems to be a hindrance to me. I would never recommend using the over B to reflect projectiles and I hate that it does.

I mean, jeez, why wouldn't it just reflect the item back from the direction it came from? At the very least.

 

[LancerStaff]

Anyone else hate the fact that the Upperdash/Electroarm reflect projectiles? Not only do they reflect items at a completely useless angle, but they stop your momentum and set you up for the easy punish.

Super armor should already be enough tfor Pit1/Pittoo to slice through witout stalling; the reflection just seems to be a hindrance to me. I would never recommend using the over B to reflect projectiles and I hate that it does.

I mean, jeez, why wouldn't it just reflect the item back from the direction it came from? At the very least.

It's a unique weakness for flavor. Although it does actually reflect certain projectiles, typically spinning ones like boomerangs and shuruken. On the other hand, a projectile that's reflected up and out isn't actually reflected, as my partners have learned messing around with team matches.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Anyone else hate the fact that the Upperdash/Electroarm reflect projectiles? Not only do they reflect items at a completely useless angle, but they stop your momentum and set you up for the easy punish.

Super armor should already be enough tfor Pit1/Pittoo to slice through witout stalling; the reflection just seems to be a hindrance to me. I would never recommend using the over B to reflect projectiles and I hate that it does.

I mean, jeez, why wouldn't it just reflect the item back from the direction it came from? At the very least.

It kind of depends on the projectiles. For some, I find it really annoying, exactly as you just described.

However, the knockback angle is kind of inconsistant. It is very useful as a reflector against both Villager's Lloid Rocket and Zelda's Phantom Slash, for instance, because it knocks them back horizontally for some strange reason(well, I guess it makes sense with the Phantom, at least).

It's more of a double-edged sword, if anything.

 

[Wa_Black]

It kind of depends on the projectiles. For some, I find it really annoying, exactly as you just described.

However, the knockback angle is kind of inconsistant. It is very useful as a reflector against both Villager's Lloid Rocket and Zelda's Phantom Slash, for instance, because it knocks them back horizontally for some strange reason(well, I guess it makes sense with the Phantom, at least).

It's more of a double-edged sword, if anything.

If done close enough, it's a free punish on projectiles.