Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[notyourparadigm]

Since the new My Smash Corner video has the subject brought up, I have a question for everyone: how often (if at all) and when do you use Pit's b-reverse and wavebounce? I'm actually rather fond of b-reversing arrows myself, but use it mainly as a mixup or to get someone off me when I'm feeling overly pressured since, as we all know, the bow is so slow. Are there other applications / interesting ways to use the b-reversed arrows?

Since Upperdash Arm throws Pit horizontally at the same velocity regardless of original momentum, I see b-reversing it as pretty much useless. And Guardian Orbitars... I can't think of anything practical to be gained with them. They're still as unfortunately dangerous to use as ever.

As for wavebouncing the arrows... even after practicing it for a good long while, I can barely even see any effect (at least, after just a full hop). The momentum shift seems like nothing. It is as useless as it appears? Do Pit's multiple jumps hinder the use of these techs compared to other members of the cast?

 

[LancerStaff]

Wavebouncing is something I really should be looking into... I've gotten some weird momentum off of GOs before. Impacts would probably benefit the most.

B-reversing is nice and definitely something every Pit player should know, but if it were patched out we wouldn't miss it much either. B-reversing is actually pretty helpful for the Orbitars (when we use them) and it's alts, as it lets us control the direction we face. We could even use it specifically to turn around mid-air without stopping if we used a jump, although the default ones would be terrible for this because they don't have a hitbox or act as a makeshift auto-dodge. Don't think it'd be incredibly useful either way though.

Oh yeah... If you're looking for less laggy arrows, shoot 'em out of a fullhop. You save about 20 frames of lag as long as you don't hit the ground before the animation is over. Guiding Bow too, but their added lag makes it slightly harder. Piercing Bow also has less lag when used in the air, but making quick use of it obviously would be difficult.

 

[Makorel]

I see Pits that keep down throwing at high percents way past the point where any follow ups are guaranteed. Do people not know that up throw does more damage?

 

[Wa_Black]

I see Pits that keep down throwing at high percents way past the point where any follow ups are guaranteed. Do people not know that up throw does more damage?

I up throw up for mix ups on landing, but d-throw is kind of like the best of both worlds because it acts as a mix between before f-throw and u-throw.

 

[ReRaze]

I see Pits that keep down throwing at high percents way past the point where any follow ups are guaranteed. Do people not know that up throw does more damage?

I guess they're just trying to keep fthrow and uthrow from going stale since those are both kill throws.

 

[LancerStaff]

I see Pits that keep down throwing at high percents way past the point where any follow ups are guaranteed. Do people not know that up throw does more damage?

It's quite a bit easier to get mixups off of Dthrow, and keeping it stale helps to balance out the extra KB from rage if you get the first KO. I prefer to go for Uthrows at that point, though.

I guess they're just trying to keep fthrow and uthrow from going stale since those are both kill throws.

Uh, I don't think Uthrow is much of a KO throw... By the time it KOs Fthrow can KO from the middle of FD. You'd have to be in one heck of a bad spot for Fthrow for Uthrow to be better, besides really high spots like the top platform of BF.

 

[Dr. Snakes]

I typically Uthrow once Dthrow send them really far away to the point that even airdodge reads can't be reliably punished. Even if you're not in range to followup, your opponent should be conditioned to automatically react when they see you Dthrow and Jump towards them, either with a jump or an airdodge. If they airdodge, you can catch them with an USmash and MAYBE get a kill if they're at a high enough percent. If they jump, throw a couple of arrows at them on their way or try to punish their landing.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just some late-night insomniac ramblings...

Omega Skyworld is made of six tiles that look like picture frames plus a row of bricks on each edge., and are the units of this test. (Yes I chose it because KI. Sue me.)

Putting Pit's actual right foot on the crack between frames and then Upperdashing will result in going exactly two tiles away, meaning the grounded move makes Pit travels a third of FD with "normal" traction. Will test later if traction effects the distance... Standing on the edge gives you more distance because Pit can't technically step back. He'll travel 2 and a third like this.

The effective attack range of the move is slightly less... Moving Pit's left foot so where his heel is hovering over the "frame" and his toes are in the "picture" will hit Captain Falcon (Blame Xacer, been trying to recreate his jab lock stuff. ) from his default reset position about two tiles away.

Aerial distance is two tiles plus one side of a frame. Aerial attack distance is the same as when grounded, but when his arm droops he starts falling. This particular spacing can lead to the Arm cancel technique.

I'm told the SA lines up with the flashing, but I dunno. It appears to last until he starts to put his arm down, and it'll still attack at this point. So 1.25 tiles have SA.

Dash attack clearly travels 1.5 tiles. Ftilt and jab infinite finisher move Pit forward the distance of a frame edge and a half. Fsmash just one frame edge.

Back roll goes a tile and about a third of another, as does forward roll even though it's hard to tell. Dash is slightly less then a frame.

Power of Flight travels five tiles when angled as much as possible.

Next I'm going to test all the unchanged arrows and then the effective attack distance on the Electroshock.

 

[IrkenPPG]

forward throw, side b ( best kill move in my opinion besides smash attacks), forward air (use offstage to kill easier), up air, forward tilt (decent when close to the edge)

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey guys, double post sorry I've been sidetracked lately. Friend of mine has been having problems and I've been playing Splatoon.

Anyway, with the 1.0.8 update presumably coming tomorrow, I'd like to remind everybody to not fall for the placebo effect. Pit and Edgy have had zero changes since launch, and I'm thinking that nothing will change with this update either. Be absolutely sure before posting about it, and don't forget about rage, staleness, and training modes effects, along with the blastzone differences between versions.

I'll be testing things myself, between two 3DS systems, like usual. Probably have something to show an hour or two after the direct ends.

 

[Speed Boost]

My most common kill option is definately jump cancel up smash. Conditioning your opponent to air dodge with aerials and then baiting them out with arrows and empty hops at kill percent to get the kill with up smash is BNB for Pit.

Up smash can also pressure through platforms on many of Pit's best stages like Battlefield and Smashville. Up smash out of shield to punish aerial approaches. Up smash to edgeguard jumps back on stage from the ledge. It's easily his best kill option. Forward smash is stronger but less has less setups and has much more cooldown.

You all have mentioned forward throw near the ledge and side b already which are your second and third best kill options when you take into account reliable setups. Run past To side b is a great setup if used very sparingly. You can also bait out a side b or forward smash punish with a SH retreating nair if they block and then attempt to dash punish.

In general I would use forward smash as a punish for laggy mistakes and hard reads but doesn't have the varitey of setups to be a consistent kill option like the other three IMHO.

Bair is another great kill option too, you can poke and space it around shields. You can mix up your landings with a cross up bair, stage spike, ledge trump, etc.

 

[ReRaze]

Dthrow to bair is a really good kill setup, not only does it true combo but it kills around 80-100% near the ledge.

 

[LancerStaff]

Come on guys, I don't wanna triple post...

Just some small stuff today, trying to limit it so I don't end up with just two hours of sleep again.

First I've been testing the Arm ledge cancel. Doing it from a rolling ledge getup has virtually no room for movement. An aerial, ground level attack can go from ever so slightly less then a third of FD to about a Pit over.

Then if you jump, hold a direction, use the C-Stick (don't hold it) to do a Dair just before touching the ground and you'll run in the chosen direction. Smash 4 C-Sticks are weird...

And if you drop off the ledge, jump up and perform an aerial fast enough it'll AC when you land. Only works for Fair Nair and Bair.

 

[Tito Maas]

I hate Pit and Dark Pit's pointless nerfs. How the Electroarm and Upperdash Arm only reflect projectiles for the sole purpose of leaving you open--especially devastating while trying to return to the ledge.

And UpB flying way over the edge if you're not deep under the stage. What's the thought process behind making that a thing?!

Guardian Orbitars having both the start-up and endlag to make it an almost useless move, on top of being the easiest reflector in the game to break?

Couldn't find the Social Thread so I just used this platform to complain a bit.

 

[LancerStaff]

I hate Pit and Dark Pit's pointless nerfs. How the Electroarm and Upperdash Arm only reflect projectiles for the sole purpose of leaving you open--especially devastating while trying to return to the ledge.

And UpB flying way over the edge if you're not deep under the stage. What's the thought process behind making that a thing?!

Guardian Orbitars having both the start-up and endlag to make it an almost useless move, on top of being the easiest reflector in the game to break?

Couldn't find the Social Thread so I just used this platform to complain a bit.

Not every projectile is deflected up and out, although it's seemingly random which ones will or not. Greninja's water shuruken and Zelda's phantom come to mind. It's mostly to give the move an obvious weakness, or when offstage, a weakness at all.

Yeah, I don't really understand the Uspecial thing either, but it's solved by crashing into the bottom of a stage and sliding up to the ledge. Easier then it sounds.

Guardian Orbitars are more of a FFA move. Lower the startup (or give it SA like it did in early footage) and it's too easy to break out of combos, lower the endlag and it's too free to just throw out and cancel mixups or otherwise land safely. It's more for reflecting things like aura spheres and protection offstage.

 

[W1m0]

Can I get an answer,not a guess on what comes out faster jab or down tilt? Thank you

 

[LancerStaff]

Can I get an answer,not a guess on what comes out faster jab or down tilt? Thank you

Jab comes out on frame five and the hitbox lingers until six, Dtilt starts on six and lasts until seven. Also worth mentioning is Dsmash where the first hit comes out on five and lasts until six, but that's with absolutely no charge.

 

[ReRaze]

Jab comes out on frame five and the hitbox lingers until six, Dtilt starts on six and lasts until seven. Also worth mentioning is Dsmash where the first hit comes out on five and lasts until six, but that's with absolutely no charge.

Is it possible to use it without charge?

 

[LancerStaff]

Is it possible to use it without charge?

Yes, but it's a little precise. I'm not actually familiar with charging mechanics... There might be a buffer of a frame or two where charging won't make a difference and won't slow you down either.

Another little factoid is that Ftilt and Fsmash both come out on frame ten, without charge of course. You should really check out the frame data if you haven't already.

 

[Tito Maas]

Decided officially that I like Dark Pit more than Pit due to falling speed. Seems like my Pit never touches the ground.

 

[LancerStaff]

Decided officially that I like Dark Pit more than Pit due to falling speed. Seems like my Pit never touches the ground.

Uh, they have the same exact fall speed. All of their "attributes" like that and weight are the same. Heck, the corresponding taunts last the exact same amount of time. The only differences are arrows, Ftilt, and Arms.

 

[Tito Maas]

Uh, they have the same exact fall speed. All of their "attributes" like that and weight are the same. Heck, the corresponding taunts last the exact same amount of time. The only differences are arrows, Ftilt, and Arms.

I know placebo runs rampant when to comes to Smash but I'm very sure Dark Pit has a faster fall speed, which is why people initially thoguht he was a heavier character. Plus I just ran like 20 matches against a Ness (and a Meta Knight yesterday) using both Dark Pit and Pit and there's a noticeable difference.

Easy to tell when I have so much trouble reaching the ground with either but it's decidedly different when it comes to regular Pit.

 

[Tito Maas]

According to this, Pit has a better horizontal fall (3.98 m/s for Dark Pit, 4.03 m/s for regular Pit), Dark Pit has greater change in speed from neutral fall to fast gall (3.04 m/s, a .44 m/s difference for Dark Pit; and 3.65 m/s, a .52 m/s difference for regular Pit).

Horizontal and Neutral-To-Fast Fall speed changes are combined together for their list of "best aerial agility". Dark Pit ranks at #43 and Pit ranks and #38, so while Pit travels further horizontally (evidence of him falling slower), Dark Pit falls faster and they do indeed have a difference in how they move in the air.

 

[LancerStaff]

I know placebo runs rampant when to comes to Smash but I'm very sure Dark Pit has a faster fall speed, which is why people initially thoguht he was a heavier character. Plus I just ran like 20 matches against a Ness (and a Meta Knight yesterday) using both Dark Pit and Pit and there's a noticeable difference.

Easy to tell when I have so much trouble reaching the ground with either but it's decidedly different when it comes to regular Pit.

All of our data says otherwise... Including data taken from the game itself.

A simple test. Ever hear about fullhop arrows? You save twenty frames of lag by shooting out of a fullhop, basically. You can do it with the Guiding bow custom too, but you'll be right above the ground post-lag since it has more lag then default. So for my test: Shoot a fullhop Guiding arrow, and make sure to press jump and special at basically the same time because buffering will make things more consistent, and then buffer another action like an airdodge as Pit and then Dark Pit. They should both react at the same point above the ground.

 

[Tito Maas]

All of our data says otherwise... Including data taken from the game itself.

A simple test. Ever hear about fullhop arrows? You save twenty frames of lag by shooting out of a fullhop, basically. You can do it with the Guiding bow custom too, but you'll be right above the ground post-lag since it has more lag then default. So for my test: Shoot a fullhop Guiding arrow, and make sure to press jump and special at basically the same time because buffering will make things more consistent, and then buffer another action like an airdodge as Pit and then Dark Pit. They should both react at the same point above the ground.

The evidence I posted above supports my claim that the two have different fall speeds.

 

[LancerStaff]

The evidence I posted above supports my claim that the two have different fall speeds.

Perform my test then come back, please.

 

[Tito Maas]

Perform my test then come back, please.

I don't have the means to have both Pit and Dark Pit jump, neutral fall, as well as jump and fast fall at the same time on the same screen.

But I don't think you can ignore two different tests that list Pit and Dark Pit having noticeably different aerial speeds in both vertical and horizontal falling. Surely we're not passing well-respected Smash Highlights as a channel that makes very many mistakes or one that only does a half job when it comes to its tests.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't have the means to have both Pit and Dark Pit jump, neutral fall, as well as jump and fast fall at the same time on the same screen.

But I don't think you can ignore two different tests that list Pit and Dark Pit having noticeably different aerial speeds in both vertical and horizontal falling. Surely we're not passing well-respected Smash Highlights as a channel that makes very many mistakes or one that only does a half job when it comes to its tests.

Ah, found an easier test. Make the training CPU Pit and set it to jump. Be Dark Pit yourself and time a jump at the same time as the CPU, and slow it down to 1/4. Same fall speed, and fast-fall speed is derived from fall speed.

Myself, I just set the two to wavebird controllers and did stuff. Like falling off of the top-right of Temple and jumping to the bottom-most platform. They're just wrong and didn't make sterile enough tests.

 

[Tito Maas]

Ah, found an easier test. Make the training CPU Pit and set it to jump. Be Dark Pit yourself and time a jump at the same time as the CPU, and slow it down to 1/4. Same fall speed, and fast-fall speed is derived from fall speed.

But is it an exact formula? Even things such as weight aren't the complete basis for things like kill percents or fall speeds. Fast falling may be correlated to fall speed, sure, but necessarily uniform and completely consistent with that? I don't think that's the case.

They seem to have the same neutral fall speed but neutral falling definitely wasn't the basis of the difference I saw in-game or the test that I posted. I fast-fall to get back to the ground.

Saying that their "fall speed" is different may be a bit inaccurate. But I think there's a difference in their aerial agility. I don't think your test accurately portrays a difference if there is one, because it's going off the basis of "if they have the same neutral fall speed, they have the same fast fall speed and same fall speed difference" without proper testing.

 

[LancerStaff]

But is it an exact formula? Even things such as weight aren't the complete basis for things like kill percents or fall speeds. Fast falling may be correlated to fall speed, sure, but necessarily uniform and completely consistent with that? I don't think that's the case.

They seem to have the same neutral fall speed but neutral falling definitely wasn't the basis of the difference I saw in-game or the test that I posted. I fast-fall to get back to the ground.

Saying that their "fall speed" is different may be a bit inaccurate. But I think there's a difference in their aerial agility. I don't think your test accurately portrays a difference if there is one, because it's going off the basis of "if they have the same neutral fall speed, they have the same fast fall speed and same fall speed difference" without proper testing.

Actually, can you play a round on SSBU real quick? I can show you if I can find my wavebirds...

 

[Tito Maas]

Actually, can you play a round on SSBU real quick? I can show you if I can find my wavebirds...

Sure. Just add my NID: 2OwtBlue

 

[LancerStaff]

Sure. Just add my NID: 2OwtBlue

Added, made room. Join in and pick Temple. I'll go through the entire moveset if you wish.

 

[Tito Maas]

Added, made room. Join in and pick Temple. I'll go through the entire moveset if you wish.

okay. I'm coming. Let's play a few matches afterward.

 

[Tito Maas]

Whoa that's pretty cool! how did you do that?

Interesting how Smash Highlights got their information, in that case.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wavebird controllers, my friend. They're official wireless GC controllers, noted for the manual channel selector that lets me do things like that. Wasn't quite every move, but I think that is proof enough for the aerial mobility, correct?

 

[Tito Maas]

Wavebird controllers, my friend. They're official wireless GC controllers, noted for the manual channel selector that lets me do things like that. Wasn't quite every move, but I think that is proof enough for the aerial mobility, correct?

Yes.

Could you run through the demonstration one more time? Wanted to save a video but in my excitement at the symmetry I forgot

 

[Tito Maas]

Brilliant. Let's run a match or two.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just a sec...

 

[LancerStaff]

Dun goofed. It's the silly 1p/2p thing... I'm fine with basically anything just short of Ridley and voice chat, alright?

 

[Tito Maas]

Dun goofed. It's the silly 1p/2p thing... I'm fine with basically anything just short of Ridley and voice chat, alright?

cool. Just wanna make my Pit better.