Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[LancerStaff]

GGs, man. That's enough for me... Pretty tired. Imagine how good I am when I'm awake and my fingers co-operate, haha.

 

[Tito Maas]

GGs, man. That's enough for me... Pretty tired. Imagine how good I am when I'm awake and my fingers co-operate, haha.

any advice before you're off?

 

[LancerStaff]

TBH, you should use Pit against another Pit unless you're using customs. It's a pretty severe disadvantage because Pit gets fullhop arrows and you don't.

You also need to think ahead more. Just stop, think, and be patient more often. You're playing a fairly defensive character, yaknow? Focus more on spacing with fast moves then throwing out powerful ones. Fsmash in particular should be saved for punishes or if you're desperate for a KO.

 

[Tito Maas]

TBH, you should use Pit against another Pit unless you're using customs. It's a pretty severe disadvantage because Pit gets fullhop arrows and you don't.

You also need to think ahead more. Just stop, think, and be patient more often. You're playing a fairly defensive character, yaknow? Focus more on spacing with fast moves then throwing out powerful ones. Fsmash in particular should be saved for punishes or if you're desperate for a KO.

I've noticed lately that my approaches are often reckless and unsafe. Gotta find a better way to do it.

 

[BaPr]

Is there a list of things that Pit can and can't be hit out of during Upperdash arm? Unless I am doing something wrong, I sometimes get hit out of it and would like to know what it is safe against and what to look out for.

EDIT: Also if the aerial version and the grounded version can take different hits. That would be nice.

 

[LancerStaff]

Is there a list of things that Pit can and can't be hit out of during Upperdash arm? Unless I am doing something wrong, I sometimes get hit out of it and would like to know what it is safe against and what to look out for.

EDIT: Also if the aerial version and the grounded version can take different hits. That would be nice.

It's actually really simple. The very end of the dash doesn't have SA, and the punch won't either at this point. If you're getting hit out of it, just get closer before activating it.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

July 31st update speeds up end lag on arrows and gives dark pit stronger arrows. This also applies to customs.

 

[CHOMPY]

Are there any new combo/conversions I should be trying?

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Are there any new combo/conversions I should be trying?

No, all that was changed was the jab infinit and arrows

 

[LancerStaff]

Are there any new combo/conversions I should be trying?

Actually the lag reduction has a major effect on shooting in the air. If you alternate between jumps and shots you'll keep the same position, which keeps you away from most projectiles.

 

[Maister]

I feel like pits arrows make a big difference and imo makes him a better pick. He also dominates ness if he edgegaurds with them pulled this off : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLOk7nHqV1M

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

With dark pit you get a new combo at high % white up throw~>up charged arrow. This combo kills around 120% on medium or light characters.

 

[ReRaze]

With dark pit you get a new combo at high % white up throw~>up charged arrow. This combo kills around 120% on medium or light characters.

That seems very very dodgy....you sure it's a true combo?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I feel like pits arrows make a big difference and imo makes him a better pick. He also dominates ness if he edgegaurds with them pulled this off : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLOk7nHqV1M

I love doing that to Ness and Lucas. It helps alot for Pit, not sure about Dark Pit

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

That seems very very dodgy....you sure it's a true combo?

Never said it was a true combo, I'm just saying it's gotten me lot of kills. If your not good enough with the arrows then I'm sry.

 

[ReRaze]

Never said it was a true combo, I'm just saying it's gotten me lot of kills. If your not good enough with the arrows then I'm sry.

no need to be rude or judgemental, I'm very proficient with my arrows tyvm so I don't need you to feel sorry for me. But no matter how good you are it doesnt change the fact that your opponent has plenty of time to react to the arrow or airdodge.You shouldn't call it a combo then It's a followup and one that's easily escapable at that too.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

no need to be rude or judgemental, I'm very proficient with my arrows tyvm so I don't need you to feel sorry for me. But no matter how good you are it doesnt change the fact that your opponent has plenty of time to react to the arrow or airdodge.You shouldn't call it a combo then It's a followup and one that's easily escapable at that too.

Was not my intention to come off rude. I'm just trying to get new information about dark pit out there so we can advance his meta like the title of this thread says. See I'm still new here and didn't know there was a difference between combo and follow up, thank you.

But it does indeed work. They usually don't bother to DI or air dodge because they don't think you can do anything when their that high and a lot of people don't even know we can shoot arrows straight up. Pits will rarely secure a kill do to the slower and weaker knock back on his arrows but DP's arrows can and will if aimed properly.

Of course the forward throw can kill at lower %, but if you get in a grab and aren't facing the correct way, or are right in the middle of the stage and they are at 110-150% it can be a good alternative. charge arrows accordingly before you fire them.

 

[Project_B]

Ninj4pikachu I also believe that Dark Pit's up throw does the most percent to an opponent out of his throws, so at center stage, this is likely the best option, however, if you can backthrow an opponent off of the stage to set up for an edgeguard, then around 130+% a runoff fair will KO many characters, and depending upon their recovery option it can be very easy to land.
Hopefully you will be able to tech a recovery with a hitbox because getting stage spiked will put you in a bad position and you will likely be hit into a stage wall should you fail in execution after running off.

I love doing that to Ness and Lucas. It helps alot for Pit, not sure about Dark Pit

This is true, and an advantage for Pit, plus I know how destructive it can be from personal experience playing Pit. However, when Ness does not try to upB from right next to the stage, or tries to mix up his recovery by dropping low before upB-ing, this will not work even somewhat reliably, even for you snipers.

For the Ness/Lucas matchup, the BEST gimp (in my opinion, as well as the one most commonly used by Nairo) is to use the Guardian Orbitars, as they can push Ness/Lucas if you collide with them (and it has no hitbox to take them out of helplessness), preventing them from hitting themselves at the right angle with PK Thunder, or it can deflect the thunder to make it travel in a straight line opposite to the way it was headed, once again stopping the recovery and will KO Ness/Lucas. If Ness/Lucas is already in the PK Thunder 2 stage, then the Orbitars will shatter, but Ness/Lucas will travel a MUCH shorter distance. This is particularly deadly to Ness.

The only possible complications with this strategy is that if the tail of the PK Thunder hits Ness/Lucas they will be able to use it again to recover (If the have GODlike reaction time and execution). As well as this, Guardian Orbitars has massive endlag, so you need to know how and when to release B (the invincibility and pushing effect stays out after you let go for a short while) in order to recover.

If you do not tech stage-spikes consistently, then I would definitely recommend it for any Pit/DP player who edgeguards for KO's. There are two good ways to learn, (1) explode yourself with bob-ombs offstage in training at varying percents, then tech/tech-jump and recover, or even better, (2) practice with a friend hitting each other into a stage lip on battlefield/FD, particularly using moves that you consistently don't tech until you learn.

That last paragraph ^ actually applies to EVERYONE playing ANY character, but it especially fits in with Pit/DP's edgeguards and especially against Ness. Best of luck to you in your Smash career!

 

[Gunla]

Ninj4pikachu I also believe that Dark Pit's up throw does the most percent to an opponent out of his throws, so at center stage, this is likely the best option, however, if you can backthrow an opponent off of the stage to set up for an edgeguard, then around 130+% a runoff fair will KO many characters, and depending upon their recovery option it can be very easy to land.
Hopefully you will be able to tech a recovery with a hitbox because getting stage spiked will put you in a bad position and you will likely be hit into a stage wall should you fail in execution after running off.



This is true, and an advantage for Pit, plus I know how destructive it can be from personal experience playing Pit. However, when Ness does not try to upB from right next to the stage, or tries to mix up his recovery by dropping low before upB-ing, this will not work even somewhat reliably, even for you snipers.

For the Ness/Lucas matchup, the BEST gimp (in my opinion, as well as the one most commonly used by Nairo) is to use the Guardian Orbitars, as they can push Ness/Lucas if you collide with them (and it has no hitbox to take them out of helplessness), preventing them from hitting themselves at the right angle with PK Thunder, or it can deflect the thunder to make it travel in a straight line opposite to the way it was headed, once again stopping the recovery and will KO Ness/Lucas. If Ness/Lucas is already in the PK Thunder 2 stage, then the Orbitars will shatter, but Ness/Lucas will travel a MUCH shorter distance. This is particularly deadly to Ness.

The only possible complications with this strategy is that if the tail of the PK Thunder hits Ness/Lucas they will be able to use it again to recover (If the have GODlike reaction time and execution). As well as this, Guardian Orbitars has massive endlag, so you need to know how and when to release B (the invincibility and pushing effect stays out after you let go for a short while) in order to recover.

If you do not tech stage-spikes consistently, then I would definitely recommend it for any Pit/DP player who edgeguards for KO's. There are two good ways to learn, (1) explode yourself with bob-ombs offstage in training at varying percents, then tech/tech-jump and recover, or even better, (2) practice with a friend hitting each other into a stage lip on battlefield/FD, particularly using moves that you consistently don't tech until you learn.

That last paragraph ^ actually applies to EVERYONE playing ANY character, but it especially fits in with Pit/DP's edgeguards and especially against Ness. Best of luck to you in your Smash career!

Please refrain from double posting (as it violates the ToS in most situations), and instead use the edit option.

 

[ReRaze]

Sooooo my friend and I have been testing out a double strat....what do you guys think of this.

if you go double pit, say you knock your opponent offstage, one pit can use up b to fly at his opponent while the other one shoots an arrow at him to cancel out the free fall, (arrows also have very little hitstun) this lets the other pit pressure the opponent deep offstage with all his jumps intact and still make it back. This can also be applied onstage where one pit uses up b to chase an opponent launched upwards allowing him to maybe get early kills with uair or side b. Its helpful because pit can't really chase opponents aerially due to his low, slow jumps.

Of course this wont lead into any true combos but it allows for much more pressure on the opponent as well as being a decent mixup on the opponent that could catch them off guard.

 

[S0RBET]

Sooooo my friend and I have been testing out a double strat....what do you guys think of this.

if you go double pit, say you knock your opponent offstage, one pit can use up b to fly at his opponent while the other one shoots an arrow at him to cancel out the free fall, (arrows also have very little hitstun) this lets the other pit pressure the opponent deep offstage with all his jumps intact and still make it back. This can also be applied onstage where one pit uses up b to chase an opponent launched upwards allowing him to maybe get early kills with uair or side b. Its helpful because pit can't really chase opponents aerially due to his low, slow jumps.

Of course this wont lead into any true combos but it allows for much more pressure on the opponent as well as being a decent mixup on the opponent that could catch them off guard.

Thats intense :0

 

[LancerStaff]

Sooooo my friend and I have been testing out a double strat....what do you guys think of this.

if you go double pit, say you knock your opponent offstage, one pit can use up b to fly at his opponent while the other one shoots an arrow at him to cancel out the free fall, (arrows also have very little hitstun) this lets the other pit pressure the opponent deep offstage with all his jumps intact and still make it back. This can also be applied onstage where one pit uses up b to chase an opponent launched upwards allowing him to maybe get early kills with uair or side b. Its helpful because pit can't really chase opponents aerially due to his low, slow jumps.

Of course this wont lead into any true combos but it allows for much more pressure on the opponent as well as being a decent mixup on the opponent that could catch them off guard.

Can't see why it wouldn't work... But doubles is kinda broke anyway.

Uspecial I think is faster then arrows, and adding c

 

[Zio~]

Can someone help me on what are the best ways to fight shiek and metaknight, those are the ones I struggle the most.

 

[Wintropy]

Can someone help me on what are the best ways to fight shiek and metaknight, those are the ones I struggle the most.

We discussed the Sheik matchup here if you want to check out the notes.

I don't know Meta Knight that well, you might want to talk to @ZTD | TECHnology, since he plays both characters.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

I tend to struggle in neutral, anyone know some safe approach options with Pit?

 

[Zio~]

I tend to struggle in neutral, anyone know some safe approach options with Pit?

I usually go for the grab, dash attack works if your opponent isn't aware of the ridiculously long range that has pit's dash attack, another way to aproach that I don't recommend using very often is short hop nair.
But my recommendation is to force your opponent to aproach with the arrows, that seems to be the best option most of the time.

 

[tibs7]

this character is simply brainless, won so many time with him.
dash attack in neutral (beats short hops, beats most other dash attacks), mix up with dash grab and you know the rest dthrow uair bait an airdodge every so often into kill move.
then if i miss dsmash second hit of it seems to be safe on everyones sheild!! can someone confirm?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

this character is simply brainless, won so many time with him.
dash attack in neutral (beats short hops, beats most other dash attacks), mix up with dash grab and you know the rest dthrow uair bait an airdodge every so often into kill move.
then if i miss dsmash second hit of it seems to be safe on everyones sheild!! can someone confirm?

If being balanced is brainless, then I don't want to be in this gaming world anymore.

 

[meleebrawler]

If being balanced is brainless, then I don't want to be in this gaming world anymore.

Don't worry he thinks Yoshi is braindead too.

 

[tibs7]

yoshi is s tier of doing as he pleases (brainless lol)

pit has a bit more than average characteristics so I wouldn't say hes 'balanced'. he blows up anyone with half his range, half his speed. which is about half the cast.

 

[xfateful]

yoshi is s tier of doing as he pleases (brainless lol)

pit has a bit more than average characteristics so I wouldn't say hes 'balanced'. he blows up anyone with half his range, half his speed. which is about half the cast.

If you're doing well with Pit without much practice, it simply means you have good fundamentals. Pit is a fundamentals character; anyone with good fundamentals will do well with him without knowing the small intricacies in his play. However, that will only get you so far. I believe if you play really good people, you won't be able to beat them with Pit without putting in effort to learn him and knowing his options.

That is because, compared to other members of the cast, there's not much Pit can do to kill other characters early if you are against good players. You simply have to rack up damage and kill with your kill moves. But because other many characters can kill you early, you have to be consistent in racking up damage and avoiding those deadly moves.

Also, Pit does have good range, but his range isn't as good as most of the other sword characters; he is fast, but only faster than about half the cast. For every good asset he has, there are multiple other characters that are better in that asset. In that way, he is pretty average. Nothing stands out. Good play will get you far though.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

If you're doing well with Pit without much practice, it simply means you have good fundamentals. Pit is a fundamentals character; anyone with good fundamentals will do well with him without knowing the small intricacies in his play. However, that will only get you so far. I believe if you play really good people, you won't be able to beat them with Pit without putting in effort to learn him and knowing his options.

That is because, compared to other members of the cast, there's not much Pit can do to kill other characters early if you are against good players. You simply have to rack up damage and kill with your kill moves. But because other many characters can kill you early, you have to be consistent in racking up damage and avoiding those deadly moves.

Also, Pit does have good range, but his range isn't as good as most of the other sword characters; he is fast, but only faster than about half the cast. For every good asset he has, there are multiple other characters that are better in that asset. In that way, he is pretty average. Nothing stands out. Good play will get you far though.

You don't have to be a full on swordsman to have good range

 

[LancerStaff]

If you're doing well with Pit without much practice, it simply means you have good fundamentals. Pit is a fundamentals character; anyone with good fundamentals will do well with him without knowing the small intricacies in his play. However, that will only get you so far. I believe if you play really good people, you won't be able to beat them with Pit without putting in effort to learn him and knowing his options.

That is because, compared to other members of the cast, there's not much Pit can do to kill other characters early if you are against good players. You simply have to rack up damage and kill with your kill moves. But because other many characters can kill you early, you have to be consistent in racking up damage and avoiding those deadly moves.

Also, Pit does have good range, but his range isn't as good as most of the other sword characters; he is fast, but only faster than about half the cast. For every good asset he has, there are multiple other characters that are better in that asset. In that way, he is pretty average. Nothing stands out. Good play will get you far though.

Pit's got equal range to Marth at least, actually. Shorter then Ike or Shulk's of course but beats the other swordsmen. Speed's actually really good too, besides the airspeed. All-around he has high acceleration, which usually means more then the speed itself as Marth can attest to... Pit's walking speed is potentially one of the fastest net walking speeds in the game. People tend to think Pit's dash speed is better then it is because he has a ton of reach on his dash attack and dash grab, and his jumpsquat is the fastest possible too. His raw walking and running speed is faster then Mario's if you're looking for a benchmark.

Thing is that Mario ended up being trash in Brawl because he's just average at everything. Now Mario's great at everything besides like range and recovery. Pit's an all-arounder like Mario too, and he's also great at everything besides combos and finishing stocks.

 

[xfateful]

You don't have to be a full on swordsman to have good range

True, just giving him an idea of what characters beat Pit's range though.

Pit's got equal range to Marth at least, actually. Shorter then Ike or Shulk's of course but beats the other swordsmen. Speed's actually really good too, besides the airspeed. All-around he has high acceleration, which usually means more then the speed itself as Marth can attest to... Pit's walking speed is potentially one of the fastest net walking speeds in the game. People tend to think Pit's dash speed is better then it is because he has a ton of reach on his dash attack and dash grab, and his jumpsquat is the fastest possible too. His raw walking and running speed is faster then Mario's if you're looking for a benchmark.

Thing is that Mario ended up being trash in Brawl because he's just average at everything. Now Mario's great at everything besides like range and recovery. Pit's an all-arounder like Mario too, and he's also great at everything besides combos and finishing stocks.

Very true and very good points.

However, the point of me mentioning the last paragraph was to support my main argument that although Pit might be easy to play and win with at first, against good players, you can't be brain-dead and still pull out a victory.

And one of the reasons is that none of Pit's "assets" really stand out. For each of his assets, there is someone in the cast that simply has a better version. Because of that, he's pretty good with everything but does not excel at anything. He is an all-rounder like you said. And therefore, without any glaring weakness that can be exploited, he is quite simple to play and get stuff done with. However, without any glaring strengths either, he suffers from doing well against good players simply because the Pit player has to be playing consistently well to win.

 

[LancerStaff]

True, just giving him an idea of what characters beat Pit's range though.


Very true and very good points.

However, the point of me mentioning the last paragraph was to support my main argument that although Pit might be easy to play and win with at first, against good players, you can't be brain-dead and still pull out a victory.

And one of the reasons is that none of Pit's "assets" really stand out. For each of his assets, there is someone in the cast that simply has a better version. Because of that, he's pretty good with everything but does not excel at anything. He is an all-rounder like you said. And therefore, without any glaring weakness that can be exploited, he is quite simple to play and get stuff done with. However, without any glaring strengths either, he suffers from doing well against good players simply because the Pit player has to be playing consistently well to win.

Even Mario has some specialization though... Range is terrible but he has the overall fastest frame data in the game. Pit's is a little less apparent but it's there. Big things are probably having so many good options out of a dash and his unique safety on his aerials. Pit's Fair and Nair can't be perfect shielded properly, and combined with the fast autocancels you have a uniquely safe character.

 

[xfateful]

Even Mario has some specialization though... Range is terrible but he has the overall fastest frame data in the game. Pit's is a little less apparent but it's there. Big things are probably having so many good options out of a dash and his unique safety on his aerials. Pit's Fair and Nair can't be perfect shielded properly, and combined with the fast autocancels you have a uniquely safe character.

However, his good options out of dash, such as his good dash grab, does not reach as far as Falcon's. And while his dash attack is good as well, Falcon's is the same in terms of how fast it comes out but actually has less endlag. In that way, Falcon has better out of dash options. Of course, the fact that Pit's dash attack hits above the ground is very nice. It's a special property, just like how his side-b has super armor. I might be a bit ignorant on this fact, so correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that Pit is the only character that has a dash attack that hits above the ground so it's not a property that only Pit has.

And even if Pit has pretty safe aerials, he will never be a safer character to play than Sheik. Nonetheless, Pit is a special character that has a unique combination of good options. If anything, his specialization is to be above average in everything. No other character has such a good mix of everything besides for maybe Sheik. But in higher levels of play, it is simply not enough to be above average to plow through opponents when you're not thinking.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

yoshi is s tier of doing as he pleases (brainless lol)

pit has a bit more than average characteristics so I wouldn't say hes 'balanced'. he blows up anyone with half his range, half his speed. which is about half the cast.

If Yoshi is S tier, why is it that he has never won a major tournament? Also, "blowing up anyone with half his range" is something that ALL sword characters do, aside from roy, but roy sucks.
And while Pit is fairly quick, he's nowhere near as fast as captain falcon, sheik, sonic etc.

 

[LancerStaff]

However, his good options out of dash, such as his good dash grab, does not reach as far as Falcon's. And while his dash attack is good as well, Falcon's is the same in terms of how fast it comes out but actually has less endlag. In that way, Falcon has better out of dash options. Of course, the fact that Pit's dash attack hits above the ground is very nice. It's a special property, just like how his side-b has super armor. I might be a bit ignorant on this fact, so correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that Pit is the only character that has a dash attack that hits above the ground so it's not a property that only Pit has.

And even if Pit has pretty safe aerials, he will never be a safer character to play than Sheik. Nonetheless, Pit is a special character that has a unique combination of good options. If anything, his specialization is to be above average in everything. No other character has such a good mix of everything besides for maybe Sheik. But in higher levels of play, it is simply not enough to be above average to plow through opponents when you're not thinking.

Options out of a dash are more then just dash grabs and dash attacks. There's also shielding (which Pit's also pretty good with since he slides quite a ways), and most importantly safe SH aerials. Captain Falcon is significantly more limited in that department, and there's nobody else with a good dash attack and dash grab off the top of my head, much less with a variety of great aerials to boot.

Likewise, it being impossible to perfect shield is a huge thing. Marth and especially Roy struggle because one perfect shield means a punish.

And we're very quickly getting to a level where the top and high tiers aren't braindead. I don't think anybody expects to winning to be easy for anybody anymore... Even once you get past learning how Sheik works you still have to know your matchups well because everybody knows the Sheik matchup at this point. ZSS similarly needs to get into your head to get grabs, and without that there's not much that can be done. Even Mario needs some skill to close a stock.

 

[xfateful]

Options out of a dash are more then just dash grabs and dash attacks. There's also shielding (which Pit's also pretty good with since he slides quite a ways), and most importantly safe SH aerials. Captain Falcon is significantly more limited in that department, and there's nobody else with a good dash attack and dash grab off the top of my head, much less with a variety of great aerials to boot.

Likewise, it being impossible to perfect shield is a huge thing. Marth and especially Roy struggle because one perfect shield means a punish.

And we're very quickly getting to a level where the top and high tiers aren't braindead. I don't think anybody expects to winning to be easy for anybody anymore... Even once you get past learning how Sheik works you still have to know your matchups well because everybody knows the Sheik matchup at this point. ZSS similarly needs to get into your head to get grabs, and without that there's not much that can be done. Even Mario needs some skill to close a stock.

I believe Falcon also slides when he shields and while his aerials might not be the safest, they lead to combos much better. Of course no one has a good dash attack, dash grab, and good aerials except for Pit. That's what makes him unique. I specifically mentioned that Pit is good at everything. But at the same time, he is not the best at anything. He does not have the best dash grab or best dash attack in the entire time; he does not have the safest aerials in the entire game; he does not have the best range or speed in the entire game... and so on. Pit is unique because he has a good combination of everything. And that's why his specialization would be to be above average in every aspect.

Yes, that is true. However, Pit is not the only one with multi-hitting aerials. He is the only one to have two - his N-air and F-air. Because of that, he has two pretty safe aerials and thus, one more option to use than most other characters with multi-hitting aerials. Nonetheless, having one more safe option to use than the majority of the cast does not mean he is the safest character in the entire game. That honor would go to Sheik. Meanwhile, I believe the character with the safest aerials in the entire game is Villager.

True, and that was what I was trying to emphasize during my first post. My post was about Pit as opposed to top or high tier characters but I was explaining why he might be winning with Pit easily and why he is also wrong in thinking that some of Pit's assets such as his range and speed are... for the lack of a better word "broken."

 

[BaeBraham]

It really is a strange aspect to the move. Although it does have some drawbacks against projectiles, it does have it's uses for specific matchup's.

I.e- Pikachu's using their thunder to edge-gaurd from underneath will receive the thunder right back towards themselves if Pit/Dark Pit use their side-special to get back to the stage. It reverses stage control pretty quickly in that matchup, and typically prevents Pikachu mains from using this option as much as some tend too.

Also, it's just not the best option 99% of the time for reflecting projectiles because Pit has a reflector that is more suited for it, in my opinion.