Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ok, you're just trolling.
Blocked.

I've pretty much done the same thing myself not too long ago.

Anyway, on a different subject, whenever I look back at Ultimate's list of songs, it feels like some of the franchises could've had more songs than what we ended up getting. The Banjo-Kazooie franchise would easily come to mind for not including the following songs...

• Vs. Gruntilda (Banjo-Kazooie)
• Mayahem Temple (Banjo-Tooie)
• Vs. Weldar (Banjo-Tooie)
• Vs. HAG-1 (Banjo-Tooie)

 

[Perkilator]

whenever I look back at Ultimate's list of songs, it feels like some of the franchises could've had more songs than what we ended up getting.

That's what I'm saying! There are so many songs that should feel like a no-brainer inclusion, and yet...they're just not in the game.

 

[TheZizz]

There are players who want to win, and players who want someone else to lose. Smash net play is exhibit A, going back to brawl. Sakurai was wise to shatter this false dichotomy, either/or mindset. There's a reason the top echelon are proficient with every character, relevant or not. They love the game, warts and all.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Lucario is no more of a Mewtwo clone than King Dedede is of Kirby.

Also Charizard and Bowser since they also have similar neutral specials. Even more extreme example since that’s the only similarity.

 

[MartianSnake]

I've pretty much done the same thing myself not too long ago.

Anyway, on a different subject, whenever I look back at Ultimate's list of songs, it feels like some of the franchises could've had more songs than what we ended up getting. The Banjo-Kazooie franchise would easily come to mind for not including the following songs...

• Vs. Gruntilda (Banjo-Kazooie)
• Mayahem Temple (Banjo-Tooie)
• Vs. Weldar (Banjo-Tooie)
• Vs. HAG-1 (Banjo-Tooie)

We need to remember what we know of development. In the Terry reveal it was stated they send the 3P companies a list of songs they want to use and receive a list of approved songs from that list in return.

We also know that composers choose what songs they wanna remix themselves, which is probably why there were so many mega man & snk remixes, the composers REALLY wanted to remix those, and the respective copyright holders really had no issue with any song being requested.

But for some copyright holders, they're either more protective, don't hold the full rights to every song requested of them, or simply feel a need to be more curative and selective of what they allow.

What I'm saying is, Smash doesn't get free reign with what they can add.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't like side specials as a mechanic. They're too unruly control-wise and I'd rather just have quick access to a neutral special while moving.

That being said, while I adore both Smash 64 (inc. Remix) and NASB1, both of them don't have enough horizontal recovery moves (though I don't think those would inherently have to specials, or even that removing side specials would disqualify having 4+ specials, a strong/light special system feels very appealing to me for a non-Smash platfighter)

 

[TheZizz]

New conversation. 75m is a perfectly fine stage and I'm not convinced 25m would play better.

Even though I don't like fighting on it, I have a soft spot for 75m, it's the site of my first ever taunt party, after five rounds of incrementally goofier antics finally hit critical mass. In the first month of brawl things were very organic, no expectations. Before the dark times...before the supspace invasion.

I don't like side specials as a mechanic. They're too unruly control-wise and I'd rather just have quick access to a neutral special while moving.

I always thought the window between neutral-b and side-b could be a little more generous. Doing a reverse neutral-b is really touchy, and there's no situation where I'm not trying to do side-b where the stick is tilted less than 50%

 

[MBRedboy31]

They could add the option to bind a ”neutral special” button (and also a “neutral attack“ button,) like in Multiversus.

I use the neutral attack button quite a lot in Multiversus myself (although it’s also because a lot of MVS characters have a projectile bound to neutral attack/neutral air, so it feels more intuitive that way.)

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Third parties need more content based on their hardware (like the Super Scope item or PictoChat stage). Microsoft provides the most content in that regard from Windows alone (not that Xbox doesn't have some super iconic imagery that could work well in Smash) (Clippy in particular I think gets unduely overlooked in discussion of a third MS rep), but Sega's platforms have had some neat stuff you could use (Sega CD US bios baybee) and while I'm unfamiliar with Neo Geo I've heard there's some neat stuff there (apparently one of the consoles had horoscopes?)

 

[fogbadge]

Third parties need more content based on their hardware (like the Super Scope item or PictoChat stage). Microsoft provides the most content in that regard from Windows alone (not that Xbox doesn't have some super iconic imagery that could work well in Smash) (Clippy in particular I think gets unduely overlooked in discussion of a third MS rep), but Sega's platforms have had some neat stuff you could use (Sega CD US bios baybee) and while I'm unfamiliar with Neo Geo I've heard there's some neat stuff there (apparently one of the consoles had horoscopes?)

in fairness I don’t think anyone counts Microsoft office as a video game so I’m not sure anyone counts clippy as viable. unless there’s some piece of his history I’m missing

 

[TheZizz]

in fairness I don’t think anyone counts Microsoft office as a video game so I’m not sure anyone counts clippy as viable. unless there’s some piece of his history I’m missing

There is (or was) a secret game hidden inside Microsoft office, but I don't think clippy was a part of it so that's a big stretch. The jester from mindmaze better qualifies

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

It really sucks that every discussion of Clippy in Smash has to devolve into semantics instead of just... the character's merit. Nobody has these discussions about characters like the DSi budgie or the 100 Classic Books owl. Every Nintendo toy is completely unrepped in Smash, while Nintendo utility applications are well-repped. Utility software products are video games by Smash's own logic, I find it hard to believe it's a special Nintendo-only exception, because if Nintendo got exceptions like that, there would be Hanafuda and Ultra Hand content at least, those aren't estranged branches of the Nintendo "family tree" they're supposedly ashamed of like CDi and such, they pop up all the time in every other Nintendo game that uses nostalgia aesthetics. "Nintendo content can get this, 3P content can't" has always been something diminshed in every Smash game, and I think it's just right to assume that what goes for Nintendo - at least in terms of what source materials are included and what role they are given, if not individual depictions - always COULD go for Microsoft or Sega or etc - not WILL, I don't believe Clippy or Windows as a whole is remotely on Smash's radar, just COULD.

Additionally, I don't think Clippy is as inherently tied to Office as many people believe. Yes, that is the product he is from, but most people who know Clippy think of him moreso as a general image of Windows as a whole, not just Office. He has a similar "unofficial mascot" status to say, Mega Man, where he is treated as a visual shorthand for Microsoft and Windows, despite not officially being designed for or ever having taken that role.

 

[TheZizz]

It really sucks that every discussion of Clippy in Smash has to devolve into semantics instead of just... the character's merit. Nobody has these discussions about characters like the DSi budgie or the 100 Classic Books owl. Every Nintendo toy is completely unrepped in Smash, while Nintendo utility applications are well-repped. Utility software products are video games by Smash's own logic, I find it hard to believe it's a special Nintendo-only exception, because if Nintendo got exceptions like that, there would be Hanafuda and Ultra Hand content at least, those aren't estranged branches of the Nintendo "family tree" they're supposedly ashamed of like CDi and such, they pop up all the time in every other Nintendo game that uses nostalgia aesthetics. "Nintendo content can get this, 3P content can't" has always been something diminshed in every Smash game, and I think it's just right to assume that what goes for Nintendo - at least in terms of what source materials are included and what role they are given, if not individual depictions - always COULD go for Microsoft or Sega or etc - not WILL, I don't believe Clippy or Windows as a whole is remotely on Smash's radar, just COULD.

Additionally, I don't think Clippy is as inherently tied to Office as many people believe. Yes, that is the product he is from, but most people who know Clippy think of him moreso as a general image of Windows as a whole, not just Office. He has a similar "unofficial mascot" status to say, Mega Man, where he is treated as a visual shorthand for Microsoft and Windows, despite not officially being designed for or ever having taken that role.

This is one who Clippy has seen through many an arduous essay. I never considered that Wii Fit doesn't constitute as a proper game, fair point.

Hell, even in the SSE, Lucario was clearly shown to be cooperative and quick to resolve conflict peacefully by using Aura to determine friend from foe.

He is approached with great apprehension and hesitation, a menacing figure with unclear motivation not unlike Mewtwo. Anyway this is a place for unpopular opinions so yea

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

We need to remember what we know of development. In the Terry reveal it was stated they send the 3P companies a list of songs they want to use and receive a list of approved songs from that list in return.

We also know that composers choose what songs they wanna remix themselves, which is probably why there were so many mega man & snk remixes, the composers REALLY wanted to remix those, and the respective copyright holders really had no issue with any song being requested.

But for some copyright holders, they're either more protective, don't hold the full rights to every song requested of them, or simply feel a need to be more curative and selective of what they allow.

What I'm saying is, Smash doesn't get free reign with what they can add.

Yeah, copyright can really be an inconvenience. The Final Fantasy series obviously knows that too well, since the base game only has two songs from Final Fantasy VII.

 

[fogbadge]

It really sucks that every discussion of Clippy in Smash has to devolve into semantics instead of just... the character's merit.

what merits were you thinking of? the sheer uniqueness of playing as a paper clip?

 

[Guynamednelson]

in fairness I don’t think anyone counts Microsoft office as a video game so I’m not sure anyone counts clippy as viable. unless there’s some piece of his history I’m missing

MS Office is meant for work
Work is the opposite of play
Games are meant to be played

Thus I have indisputable proof Clippy is not a video game character

 

[MartianSnake]

MS Office is meant for work
Work is the opposite of play
Games are meant to be played

Thus I have indisputable proof Clippy is not a video game character

Live Chef from Personal Trainer Cooking reaction:

 

[DragonRobotKing26]

in fairness I don’t think anyone counts Microsoft office as a video game so I’m not sure anyone counts clippy as viable. unless there’s some piece of his history I’m missing

you're right, Clippy don't counts as video game character, i can give Hatsune Miku as example, Miku was started as a voicebank and she got a pouplarity on internet, and she have her own games as Project Diva and Project Sekai and are lisensed by Crypton Future Media, the difference from Miku with Clippy is Clippy is a software that don't have any game, nor in a exclusive Xbox game, since Miku is a voicebank and she have merchandise like Sega games, and Hatsune Miku is also a 4th party character

 

[Diddy Kong]

Not sure if popular or unpopular opinion , but certain character suggestions don't necessarily warrant serious discussion. Clippy is a good example. If brought up to the developers, all they would do themselves is laugh as well I'd imagine.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Not sure if popular or unpopular opinion , but certain character suggestions don't necessarily warrant serious discussion. Clippy is a good example. If brought up to the developers, all they would do themselves is laugh as well I'd imagine.

Disregarding picks as jokes? in 2025? Come on now. If you think Clippy doesn't make sense, actually argue for it. Don't just take it as a given that "Clippy makes no sense" without elaborating whatsoever. I do not have whatever third-eye knowledge supposedly makes it obvious that Clippy doesn't make sense in a post-Cloud world. Or even better: just say "I don't like Clippy" and not try to make some kind of objective statement out of it.

MS Office is meant for work
Work is the opposite of play
Games are meant to be played

Thus I have indisputable proof Clippy is not a video game character

Is the Wii Shop Channel "play"? Cooking Guide has no original gaming content (G&W Chef is included as an easter egg) and has a music track (which is decidedly non-G&W Chef-themed). Even Wii Fit, while arguable as a game through even the strictest definitions, is represented almost entirely in Smash through its utility content and not the game content.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

While we just had a discussion proving the issue with 'Echo Fever', where people go so insane about the idea of simply making Number Go Up to the point things quickly stop making sense, I think the opposite is also true, a lot of people try too hard to put emphasis on how 'unique' a character is. There's cases like people complaining that some characters share a single move like say, Joker and Hero having a variation of Marth's back air but being silent when the characters they like share a bunch of moves with other characters. But also? I think it bleeds too much into a lot of fanmade movesets. "For his forward tilt, Rayman swings a ukelele, this is a reference to when he held one for 5 seconds in a cutscene. For his forward throw, Alucard does a special move from Symphony of the Night which I made a throw because I really wanted to reference how he can use Holy Water in his specials. For his aerials, Dante does poses from his Shakespearian Rap Battle with Angus to be a reference to that cutscene". Mind you I made up that last one but this mentality just tends to make things incoherent for the sake of 'lol so random' or referencing for the sake of referencing when Smash movesets... Don't really do that. This mentality works in other games like say DBFZ or Nick All Star Brawl, but 95% of the moves in those games are made to be specific references so the incoherency becomes the coherency

 

[Lenidem]

Disregarding picks as jokes? in 2025? Come on now. If you think Clippy doesn't make sense, actually argue for it.

The Barnum effect renders that demand unreasonable. If you really don't see the difference between Cloud and Clippy, it's unlikely for you to ever understand anyway.

 

[fogbadge]

Disregarding picks as jokes? in 2025? Come on now. If you think Clippy doesn't make sense, actually argue for it. Don't just take it as a given that "Clippy makes no sense" without elaborating whatsoever. I do not have whatever third-eye knowledge supposedly makes it obvious that Clippy doesn't make sense in a post-Cloud world. Or even better: just say "I don't like Clippy" and not try to make some kind of objective statement out of it.

allow me: microsoft office is not a game and I don't think anyone has ever argued that it is. unlike say hatsune miku and wii fit where people have definitely argued in favour of them being games. but I suppose you could ask how do we define a game? in my time on this forum I've seen people stretch and bend the definitions the include just about anything but rarely has that included office. so I think it's safe to say that most people don't discuss him because most of us see him as a 4th party character. and that would be why he doesn't make sense in a post cloud world.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

The Barnum effect renders that demand unreasonable. If you really don't see the difference between Cloud and Clippy, it's unlikely for you to ever understand anyway.

Nothing says "vague enough to be worthless" more than "it's unlikely for you to understand, don't waste my time." I literally don't see the difference.

allow me: microsoft office is not a game and I don't think anyone has ever argued that it is. unlike say hatsune miku and wii fit where people have definitely argued in favour of them being games. but I suppose you could ask how do we define a game? in my time on this forum I've seen people stretch and bend the definitions the include just about anything but rarely has that included office. so I think it's safe to say that most people don't discuss him because most of us see him as a 4th party character. and that would be why he doesn't make sense in a post cloud world.

I have already argued this in this very page, but the prescedent within Smash is that Cooking Guide, PictoChat, and Wii Shop Channel are games. Wii Shop Channel has no gaming element, PictoChat has no gaming element nor is connected to the game features of the console, and Cooking Guide has no original gaming element. The Wii U eShop has a gaming element (the loading screen puzzle), but that is not represented in Smash in a tangible form. If you have a problem with utility content in Smash, take it out on Smash first and those who want more second.

And again, the only place I see people distinguish between Office and Windows on such an extreme level - at least in regards to Clippy - is Smash speculation. While Clippy is by all means a part of Office and not a part of Windows, Office is itself a part of Windows. It's been released on Mac, yes, but it is marketed and branded alongside Windows - much like say, the Wii Shop Channel is part of the Wii's brand despite being a seperate product from the Wii BIOS. Clippy is a part of Office, and that makes him a part of Windows.

 

[fogbadge]

Nothing says "vague enough to be worthless" more than "it's unlikely for you to understand, don't waste my time." I literally don't see the difference.


I have already argued this in this very page, but the prescedent within Smash is that Cooking Guide, PictoChat, and Wii Shop Channel are games. Wii Shop Channel has no gaming element, PictoChat has no gaming element nor is connected to the game features of the console, and Cooking Guide has no original gaming element. The Wii U eShop has a gaming element (the loading screen puzzle), but that is not represented in Smash in a tangible form. If you have a problem with utility content in Smash, take it out on Smash first and those who want more second.

And again, the only place I see people distinguish between Office and Windows on such an extreme level - at least in regards to Clippy - is Smash speculation. While Clippy is by all means a part of Office and not a part of Windows, Office is itself a part of Windows. It's been released on Mac, yes, but it is marketed and branded alongside Windows - much like say, the Wii Shop Channel is part of the Wii's brand despite being a seperate product from the Wii BIOS. Clippy is a part of Office, and that makes him a part of Windows.

Wario what you’re forgetting is that those things are part of Nintendo. People make exceptions for Nintendo stuff cause smash started out being about Nintendo

 

[Otoad64]

Nothing says "vague enough to be worthless" more than "it's unlikely for you to understand, don't waste my time." I literally don't see the difference.


I have already argued this in this very page, but the prescedent within Smash is that Cooking Guide and Wii Shop Channel are games. Wii Shop Channel has no gaming element, and Cooking Guide has no original gaming element. The Wii U eShop has a gaming element (the loading screen puzzle), but that is not represented in Smash in a tangible form.

And again, the only place I see people distinguish between Office and Windows on such an extreme level - at least in regards to Clippy - is Smash speculation. While Clippy is by all means a part of Office and not a part of Windows, Office is itself a part of Windows. It's been released on Mac, yes, but it is marketed and branded alongside Windows - much like say, the Wii Shop Channel is part of the Wii's brand despite being a seperate product from the Wii BIOS. Clippy is a part of Office, and that makes him a part of Windows.

Yes, but the Wii is a game console. Windows isn’t associated with video games. It can play video games, of course, but it’s not it’s primary function. If there was a movie crossover game series, for example, I think it’d be fine to include a Blu-Ray player but it’d be weird to include a PlayStation.

 

[TheZizz]

While we just had a discussion proving the issue with 'Echo Fever', where people go so insane about the idea of simply making Number Go Up to the point things quickly stop making sense

Yea, and are mechanically and thematically similar and that's OK

referencing for the sake of referencing when Smash movesets... Don't really do that. This mentality works in other games like say DBFZ or Nick All Star Brawl, but 95% of the moves in those games are made to be specific references so the incoherency becomes the coherency

It's fine for "fantastical" characters like G&W to pull a piano orchestra out of their behole but it certainly isn't warranted across the board

In a way, neglecting to have characters with only slight variations would be a wasted opportunity in a way. Also the feeling of comradery from counter picking an "echo" is undeniable

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Oh this is an interesting discussion to have, because if I’m gathering this right, the following is ThreeDubs’ argument:

Premise 1: PictoChat and Wii Shop Channel have content
Premise 2: PictoChat and Wii Shop Channel are not video games
Conclusion: Non-video game content is allowed

But, how does this argument stop at fringe cases like Clippy or Hatsune Miku? If non-video game content is ostensibly fair (non)-game, then how’s this argument stopping me from arguing in favor of, say, the Mercedes GLA? Shaun the Sheep? Classic “fourth party” choices like SpongeBob Squarepants or Goku? Legally, there is already no such thing as fourth party, so logically, all content is created equal.

So, let’s see where us speculators draw the line between video game content and non-video game content with a proposal for a peace offering of common ground: Minesweeper for Smash.

 

[TheZizz]

Nothing says "vague enough to be worthless" more than "it's unlikely for you to understand, don't waste my time." I literally don't see the difference.

As much as I loathe when people tell you you have no idea what you're talking about with zero elaboration (on a discussion board or elsewhere), if this bid for Clippy is 100% serious then this is a legitimate case study that is bound to advance our understanding of humanity. Next you'll be vouching for Waluigi with a straight face, come on man

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Yes, but the Wii is a game console. Windows isn’t associated with video games. It can play video games, of course, but it’s not it’s primary function. If there was a movie crossover game series, for example, I think it’d be fine to include a Blu-Ray player but it’d be weird to include a PlayStation.

See, this is a compelling argument - I'm not sure if PS in a movies fighting game is too compelling a comparison, since the PS2 was as successful as a budget DVD player as a console, but it's a valid counterpoint as a whole - however, when you bring up the movies hypothetical: what do you do about educational content? nobody would say that a feature-length nature documentary is not a movie, plenty of people would say there's no room for it or potential content to draw from, but there is no debate on if it's elegible in the first place. Same with say, teleshopping; sports; or news programs in a TV crossover. If we called video games "software" or "videos", without the word "games", and that word implied something like Pac-Man or Mario from a consumer perspective and not just a corporate one, where would the line exist? The same techniques and tools used to make and play games are the ones that gave us Word and Clippy.

Now I think about it: what is the core aspect of the Wii Shop Channel? Is it gaming, or shopping? When you buy Mario on the Wii Shop Channel, is your biggest thought the dent in your finances, or about the wait to play Mario? From an adult's point of view, it would be the finances, but from a child's point of view, it's Mario. Similarly, contrasting the work view with which an adult would view Office, a child's point of view of Office would be playing with Clippy or using funky Powerpoint transitions.

 

[fogbadge]

. Next you'll be vouching for Waluigi with a straight face, come on man

How new to the smash fandom are you?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Next you'll be vouching for Waluigi with a straight face

It's a million times better than acting like two fighters being "thematically similar" means they share a moveset.

 

[TheZizz]

How new to the smash fandom are you?

The running gag is that goomba, koopa, etc. (you name it) has more of a place than a-WALUIGI! How new are you? It's a joke dude

It's a million times better than acting like two fighters being "thematically similar" means they share a moveset.

Their specials are mechanically similar, as I mentioned. The case is not only the thematic similarities, as you are well aware

The relevant point is that it's a completely innocuous and inoffensive opinion that doesn't warrant hostility in any capacity. You get it or you don't

 

[fogbadge]

The running gag is that goomba, koopa, etc. (you name it) has more of a place than a-WALUIGI! How new are you? It's a joke dude

the fact that you think people aren't serious when they say they want waluigi is a joke

 

[Opossum]

Their specials are mechanically similar, as I mentioned. The case is not only the thematic similarities, as you are well aware

Literally none of them are even close to thematically similar beyond Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere. Confusion and Force Palm are nothing alike. Disable is an incredibly unique move while Double Team is a bog standard counter. Mewtwo has Teleport (essentially shared with Zelda, Sheik, and Palutena) while Lucario's Extreme Speed is a rushing attack. Even with their Final Smashes, Mewtwo uses Psystrike to blow up foes in a horizontal crossfire, while Lucario's Aura Storm shoots an aimable beam down at the stage: a decidedly vertical attack.


Hell, out of the four charge-and-shoot-an-orb moves, it's not even Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere that are the most similar: it's Shadow Ball and Charge Shot. Aura Sphere gains power with more aura and also has a hitbox on the charge up, while Sun Salutation gets more powerful with Deep Breathing and also heals.

So they're not even the most similar out of the single shared special options.

 

[TheZizz]

the fact that you think people aren't serious when they say they want waluigi is a joke

If you can't tell that I'm hype for waluigi you're a hopeless case or just looking for any pretense to find falsehood, sorry. You should have kept me blocked

The

Literally none of them are even close to thematically similar beyond Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere. Confusion and Force Palm are nothing alike. Disable is an incredibly unique move while Double Team is a bog standard counter. Mewtwo has Teleport (essentially shared with Zelda, Sheik, and Palutena) while Lucario's Extreme Speed is a rushing attack. Even with their Final Smashes, Mewtwo uses Psystrike to blow up foes in a horizontal crossfire, while Lucario's Aura Storm shoots an aimable beam down at the stage: a decidedly vertical attack.


Hell, out of the four charge-and-shoot-an-orb moves, it's not even Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere that are the most similar: it's Shadow Ball and Charge Shot. Aura Sphere gains power with more aura and also has a hitbox on the charge up, while Sun Salutation gets more powerful with Deep Breathing and also heals.

So they're not even the most similar out of the single shared special options.

The specials are mechanically similar, the characters demeanor + the ultra hyper energy motif are thematically similar. I'm not conflating the two in such a way. I understand there is a big overlap between Pokemon and smash fans but I'm not among them, surely you can entertain this perspective? Dittos for Mewtwo and Lucario couldn't be easier to brainstorm anyway, by you guys' own admission. The original point stands!

 

[Opossum]

The specials are mechanically similar,

You keep saying this. Tell me which special moves, besides Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere, are at all similar between Mewtwo and Lucario.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

"Mewtwo is a Lucario clone" and "Lucario has nothing to do with Mewtwo" are both absurd takes, and both sides are just intentionally Lincoln Loud-ing this cold case nobody will get anything out of - even to add to their existing perspective - to repetition. This is not a debate, It is spam and slop on both sides.

 

[fogbadge]

If you can't tell that I'm hype for waluigi you're a hopeless case or just looking for any pretense to find falsehood, sorry. You should have kept me blocked

you were the one suggesting no one seriously supported Waluigi. And don’t flatter yourself I never blocked you

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Incineroar is kind of a Lucario clone if you think about it: Bipedal cat, command grab Side B, Counter Down B, martial artist, gets stronger the more he gets hit (if using Revenge), gameplan relying on said raw strength, diving Up B, mostly using kicks for the rest of the moveset