Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Megadoomer]

Just drop it and move on. There's no reason to derail the thread and keep arguments going like this.

 

[TheZizz]

no is misinformation on Nintendo’s say so. you don’t get to decide the anime is canon to the games

I said the Kirby mythos was gravely serious and started gushing about the anime. The games encompass said mythos. I mean the dark miasma possessing everyone seems "gravely serious" to me despite the bright overtone. So whatever man, bygones

 

[fogbadge]

Just drop it and move on. There's no reason to derail the thread and keep arguments going like this.

alright alright I won't tell him why his wrong this time

 

[TheZizz]

alright alright I won't tell him why his wrong this time

Praytell, I embrace correction

 

[fogbadge]

Praytell, I embrace correction

no. when a mod tells you to drop it, you drop it

 

[TheZizz]

no. when a mod tells you to drop it, you drop it

I accept your concession

 

[Megadoomer]

Seriously, just drop it. If someone gets on your nerves easily, there's an Ignore feature if you go to a user's profile.

 

[fogbadge]

I accept your concession

you wish

 

[TheZizz]

I'm thinking express user mod-ability for the next smash might resolve the issues of development cost nicely. The "DOOM WAD" approach if you will. There are disadvantages to not having a single standard but it might be befitting of "smash ultimate 2"

you wish

Womp womp

I have ceased to care, but not for all time. Just, let's not contend over trivia meant for fun like "ohh but but Kirby isn't serious like that" it's ok dude we'll figure this out together, and no there are no "hopeless cases" that was wrong of me to say, now as for the one two? Mm yes wappush and I figure a Scot of all people can relate but then maybe I've watched too many movies from the previous century and the whole place is unrecognizable. Oof

 

[Megadoomer]

My unpopular Smash opinion is that I don't think Melee's nearly as good as parts of the fandom seem to think it is. At the very least, I don't see why people are so devoted to it that they're willing to track down increasingly outdated CRT TVs to play the game on since modern TVs have a fraction of a second of input delay.

It feels like the attachment to competitive Melee is like if Street Fighter fans insisted that Super Street Fighter II Turbo should be a main-stage EVO game while Street Fighter 6 should be relegated to a side tournament. (or, at best, that SSF2T and Street Fighter 6 should have equal prominence at EVO) Maybe I'm uninformed, but I played Melee growing up (I'm pretty sure I wrecked my first Gamecube by leaving it on overnight to try and get Mewtwo), and the whole thing just seems weird to me.

 

[TheZizz]

My unpopular Smash opinion is that I don't think Melee's nearly as good as parts of the fandom seem to think it is. At the very least, I don't see why people are so devoted to it that they're willing to track down increasingly outdated CRT TVs to play the game on since modern TVs have a fraction of a second of input delay.

It feels like the attachment to competitive Melee is like if Street Fighter fans insisted that Super Street Fighter II Turbo should be a main-stage EVO game while Street Fighter 6 should be relegated to a side tournament. (or, at best, that SSF2T and Street Fighter 6 should have equal prominence at EVO) Maybe I'm uninformed, but I played Melee growing up (I'm pretty sure I wrecked my first Gamecube by leaving it on overnight to try and get Mewtwo), and the whole thing just seems weird to me.

As someone who switched to brawl and never looked back until well into smash 4, I can say that the Hitstun of melee is uncanny by comparison, with the wild interactions as I previously mentioned, and the sheer responsiveness. Though I can't imagine people who hadn't played melee in its heyday drawing this conclusion. Anyway I prefer ultimate at the end of the day.

 

[FazDude]

Here's an idea to make FLUDD more visually interesting, with the benefit of being timeless/applicable to any era of Mario: some kind of kamehameha-type animation with a rainbow beam. Referencing the actual super star animation in an indirect, abstract way and doubling down on the "basic fighting guy" element. Compared to fire, a rainbow seems more naturally fit for a non-damaging attack.

Image source

Late, but this goes HARD

 

[Cutie Gwen]

My unpopular Smash opinion is that I don't think Melee's nearly as good as parts of the fandom seem to think it is. At the very least, I don't see why people are so devoted to it that they're willing to track down increasingly outdated CRT TVs to play the game on since modern TVs have a fraction of a second of input delay.

It feels like the attachment to competitive Melee is like if Street Fighter fans insisted that Super Street Fighter II Turbo should be a main-stage EVO game while Street Fighter 6 should be relegated to a side tournament. (or, at best, that SSF2T and Street Fighter 6 should have equal prominence at EVO) Maybe I'm uninformed, but I played Melee growing up (I'm pretty sure I wrecked my first Gamecube by leaving it on overnight to try and get Mewtwo), and the whole thing just seems weird to me.

Tbh I kinda get it? Melee's speed and nuances meant it had fast paced gameplay and Brawl directly showed Melee fans they're not important to the people making the game, with it having stuff specifically made to discourage comeptitive. Smash 4 and Ultimate did end up caring about the competitive scene more while also getting rid of the anti competitive tripping and stuff. My issue with Melee is how it impacted other games like say, NASB1 where the game seemed to cater almost entirely to 'Melee rushdown hype' propaganda to the point most of the characters kind of played the same, though from what I remember, that game's sequel wised up and changed that alongside other major criticisms

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

NASB1 where the game seemed to cater almost entirely to 'Melee rushdown hype' propaganda to the point most of the characters kind of played the same, though from what I remember, that game's sequel wised up and changed that alongside other major criticisms

Speaking as a fan of both games, that was not a moment of "wising up", as much as just... a different approach to game design. The devs of NASB2 have explicity stated that it was specifically made to exist alongside NASB1, not replace it.

 

[PlasmaDam]

I don't understand why people dislike fludd so much.I think it's way more interesting than mario old down b

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I don't understand why people dislike fludd so much.I think it's way more interesting than mario old down b

At least it makes Mario more distinct them both Dr Mario and Luigi.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

On this whole FLUDD thing...

If you consider a less powerful move inherently worse, or a move that does more damage inherently useful, you really shouldn't be talking about moveset design at all. That is the barest of bare minimums to understanding movesets. The most infamous move in Smash history deals 5 damage and almost no knockback at a fixed percentage, there's way more to a move's viability than just "big number go up"

 

[PlasmaDam]

Side tangent but this is what bugs me about alot of fan moveset reworks That change a simple move for something more complex.Not every move on a moveset needs to be this super complex thing or a Refrence there is beauty in simplicity imo

 

[FazDude]

Figured I might as well give my two cents on the FLUDD debacle. While I don't hate the move in concept, it's something I don't want on Mario specifically. IMO, the ideal Smash Mario has room for schmoovement, and I'd probably swap out FLUDD for the Star Spin from Galaxy for some midair stall shenanigans.

Now, if you put something like that on Luigi (just with the Poltergust/wind), sign me up.

 

[fogbadge]

Figured I might as well give my two cents on the FLUDD debacle. While I don't hate the move in concept, it's something I don't want on Mario specifically. IMO, the ideal Smash Mario has room for schmoovement, and I'd probably swap out FLUDD for the Star Spin from Galaxy for some midair stall shenanigans.

Now, if you put something like that on Luigi (just with the Poltergust/wind), sign me up.

I mean the original poltergust could shoot water as well so it'd work

 

[KingofPhantoms]

FLUDD is a decent edge guarding move.

With that said, I do kinda wish that Mario got CAPPY as a projectile attack/recovery move after Odyssey was released. FLUDD's not a bad move but it feels kind of out of place when, aside from the cape, he hasn't gotten many attacks from many other specific Mario games and fireballs he can use in most mainline Mario games. Not like every move has needs to be a reference, but FLUDD in specific just feels kind of outdated at this point when there's so many other things Mario can do that could take it's place.

At the same time, though, Mario is excellent at edge guarding and I'm certain there'd be a lot of people who'd be upset to see it go since it would take away a good option of preventing opponents from recovering.

 

[FazDude]

I mean the original poltergust could shoot water as well so it'd work

True, but I mainly associate it with wind. Either one could work.

 

[fogbadge]

True, but I mainly associate it with wind. Either one could work.

something for the custom moves perhaps

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The heart of the issued with FLUDD is that its reason for being is in many ways why it's so disliked; the attachment to the most famous character in the game and one many will play just because he's Mario. Him being utilized for a non-damage move makes sense as a way to introduce the idea to fans via an iconic figure with the trade-off that it proves irksome to those that either viewed his 64/Melee move as fine and/or those that want the starter character to be even more straightforward.

Were a FLUDD like attack assigned to a far more obscure fighter I suspect it would be far less controversial; just a quirky but technical move that would be accepted for the particular character. Mario having it to some just feels like reminder of the skewed balance with non-damage moves; there's just enough of them to stand out (not entirely positively) yet not enough for many to get entirely comfortable with overall concept.

 

[AlRex]

My own Mario rework had the Dr. Mario down air, plus Body Slide/Dive as Side, Tornado back as Down, and Cape as a Shield Special that had a lot of strange interactions with a lot of his other moves, not to mention Mario could also use Tornado like the Spin Jump in Super Mario World and do it to bounce off his own Fireballs, even.

Ultimately the goal was to make Mario a very movement focused character, which I think would be a good way to go if you want make him seem more interesting than just the “basics” character. I also think this would, at the very least, be a more interesting route to take Mario if he were hypothetically a guest in another fighter, not too complicated, maybe still teaches you in some ways how to play the game you might not have immediately known, but would help him stand out in a game that would have their “basics” character already. Then again, maybe this approach is too overly complicated, who knows?

A bunch of other moves were available because the focus of the hypothetical Smash I had was “a lot of customization, a lot of things to do in the game”, but it all depends on what you want to do and how you want Mario/the game’s movesets as a whole to come across. I’m viewing FLUDD less as “it’s wrong” and more “I don’t personally like it, but I can see some’s reasoning for it”, but that is fine, and also why I at least wanted options to use it in my “ideal” Smash game.

 

[FazDude]

Honestly, I don't think Mario even needs that much changed to fit my vision for him. All I'd really do is make Up Smash a backflip kick jump which can be canceled out of in the air, Dive for Side Special (no Cappy), and Star Spin Down B. Anything else (like NSMB's double jump split kick as a Nair) would just be salad dressing.

 

[TheZizz]

Star spin is clearly a lock to replace side-b, it even reflects projectiles in its source game which the cape doesn't do. But I like the cape also, it's goofy and while super Mario world is hardly top 5 material it's a worthy throwback anyway. And the yellow complements Mario's ensemble nicely

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You know if there had to be an exception for fourth party characters getting in Smash by media, I think I'd go with those originating in literature. Granted there's some just as identified by adaptations these days (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings) that I wouldn't be as keen on, but there's something about literary characters in SSB that just feels less... off (for lack of a better word) than those from other mediums doing the same.

 

[PlasmaDam]

I feel like 4th party is general are a Pandora box that should never be opened even though it would be cool to see Goku or Char aznable in smash

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

IMO the best way to handle 4th parties is the sneaky way about it - the GoldenEye content in Smash 64 and Melee basically - original game content from non-original games, preferably the type that doesn't give away what it's from without research (I don't really jive with Android 21 for that reason). Almost gives the same "those who know vs. those who don't" vibe as like... an innuendo in a kids' cartoon, just on a more niche scale. I was honestly really surprised that Sora ended up not coming with the DuckTales Moon theme. Disney owns the rights to that song, it arguably has closer ties to KH than Getsu Fuma Den has to Castlevania (at least on a diegetic scale), and it's one of gaming's most iconic.

Of course, the whole Dracula/public domain thing is another can of worms alltogether.

 

[fogbadge]

IMO the best way to handle 4th parties is the sneaky way about it - the GoldenEye content in Smash 64 and Melee basically - original game content from non-original games, preferably the type that doesn't give away what it's from without research (I don't really jive with Android 21 for that reason). Almost gives the same "those who know vs. those who don't" vibe as like... an innuendo in a kids' cartoon, just on a more niche scale. I was honestly really surprised that Sora ended up not coming with the DuckTales Moon theme. Disney owns the rights to that song, it arguably has closer ties to KH than Getsu Fuma Den has to Castlevania (at least on a diegetic scale), and it's one of gaming's most iconic.

Of course, the whole Dracula/public domain thing is another can of worms alltogether.

actually that's a pretty decent idea. that way we can get KH music from the disney worlds

 

[AlRex]

My bias says the Ninja Turtles for a “fourth party” character because those titles felt like a big series Konami had for Nintendo consoles back in the day and it is usually in the same retro games conversations as many titles like Castlevania, Contra, Mario, Mega Man, Zelda, etc. But that may be partially my old person bias plus really liking them. The newer TMNT beat-em-up + a collection feels like a worthy enough tribute to their 80’s/90’s initial mainstream success, and it’s not fully worth opening the can of worms that makes Smash go full MUGEN/Fortnite.

Unfortunately, the TMNT’s full-on gaming counterparts in the Battletoads don’t seem likely either as anything besides a Mii Brawler costume, either, especially given I imagine Crash, DOOM, Halo, and a few others take priority over more Rare. I’m not complaining about that, though, honestly.

Also, I’d love to see fighters that do for comics, anime/manga, animation, movies, TV, literatures toys, music even, etc. what Smash does or is purported to do for video games, rather than smooshing them together, but it has proven tricky sticking with even just one company mainly.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned this before, absolutely said it elsewhere, but if Smash's 3P rep did stick rigidly to Nintendo-related content like Banjo or Mega Man, the likes of TMNT; Scrooge McDuck; and James Bond would be as blatant omissions as Sony content appears to be from the sort of post-fighter pass perspective of Smash.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Given how much TMNT helped sell the NES to UK audiences and that the Turtles in Time port on SNES became so acclaimed that it arguably eclipsed the arcade original in many people's memories, there's certainly worse cases than citing the Turtles as far as Nintendo connections.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

On the topic of Disney: I'm surprised that LucasArts (Maniac Mansion/Day of the Tentacle, Monkey Island) isn't brought up much in relation to Sora. I totally understand where the idea of "Sora was the only viable option for Disney, Club Penguin is kil and WTF is a Spectrobe" comes from, but it's also very much not true when you look at the bigger picture. Of course, from a "fan demand matters" perspective, yes, Sora was the only viable option.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

The only third party character who didn't originate from a video game that I'd ever be perosnally okay with joining the cast of Smash is Scrooge McDuck.

Buuuuuuut I also don't want Smash to open the door to characters who didn't originate from video games to begin with because I honestly think that'd make the series a complete mess of near-random crossovers and add tons of levels of toxicity to the speculation scene, so I don't have much room to talk there lmao.

 

[Ze Diglett]

My only issue with FLUDD as Mario's Down Special is that it frankly doesn't do a whole lot even if you go out of your way to apply it in a match. I'd see Wario Wario Wario 's point about teaching players not to rely solely on offensive moves if FLUDD actually did something. As-is, it seems to do the opposite, if anything. Other than that, though, having a reference to Sunshine in Mario's kit is actually super based.

As far as non-video game characters, if you ask me, there's one correct answer, even if Nintendo would never be cool enough to do it:

They ARE more known for the adventure games than the comics and cartoon, after all!

 

[MartianSnake]

I'm cool with Tony Hawk joining smash because it would be funny and I think of him more as a video game character that entered the real world anyways

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think the issues with FLUDD ar moreso that it doesn't feel fun to use by mot having a fun visual or audio cue unlike other moves that do a similar thing, including customs from Smash 4, and not really being very obvious to how it works as a friend of mine plays Mario in Smash since Brawl but whenever he uses FLUDD he ends up actually helping people on their recoveries due to angling it up, thinking he has to aim it. I guess it's kinda like status moves in pokemon, kids always go "Why would I do Swords Dance when I can just attack twice" whereas those kids as hardcore adult fans would later see the value in doubling your attack, you know?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If Bandana Waddle Dee is indeed "not just a Goomba with a hat", then he could easily coexist with regular Waddle Dee.