Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[fogbadge]

I think it is hypocritical to say Sora inherently "deserved" to get in and/or was inherently a good last bow-out on virtue of the ballot, but also say that - for example - FE rep shouldn't be trimmed down; Melee mechanics shouldn't be reimplemented; or Waluigi and Goku shouldn't get in. Those are also strongly fan-demanded changes, yet I feel like most times I see strongly someone oppose things like that, they're very much in favor of fan demand and the way SSBU handled it otherwise.

I don’t think anyone “deserves” to get in smash

 

[Lenidem]

I don’t think anyone “deserves” to get in smash

I think my neighbor does!

 

[chocolatejr9]

I don’t think anyone “deserves” to get in smash

But if nobody deserves to get in Smash, then EVERYBODY does...

That's how that works, right?

 

[Otoad64]

I don’t think anyone “deserves” to get in smash

The only characters who deserve to get in Smash are the characters I like and nobody else.

 

[AlRex]

I only want Goku if he’s not the only character of his kind. I kind of get his status, but at the same time, I’ve already seen Goku’s moveset and several variants of it in other fighters, including even platform fighters. So in the unlikely event of it, either I’d rather have a Nintendo VS Jump game or lean into the “jump the shark” vibes that it has and do a full “fourth party Fighters Pass” and put ones like Darth Vader, Mickey Mouse, Shrek, Tony Hawk, Popeye, the Ninja Turtles, the Fonz, Geralt, E.T., Superman, Pepsiman, Hatsune Miku, Ronald McDonald, everyone from the Ultimate Showdown, Fortnite, the Deadpool VS Peter Griffin rap battle, whatever. Not saying that the latter especially should happen, but I can’t see why Goku should be the only exception, and at least it’s kind of funny to think about.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Whenever people talk about Donkey Kong characters' movesets in Smash, it feels like they completely forget that each character in a Donkey Kong game typically only has 2-to-3 abilities, offensive or otherwise, and one of them is always a functionally identical dash. While I think a unique Dixie would be cool, I don't really get why Dixie Kong HAS to be a unique character when she only has 3 moves, two of them are aesthetically identical, and one of them is basically just used as a fancy jump animation in the latest game. Perhaps a ponytail normal moveset would be cool, but that's already covered by a Diddy clone due to her not having a tail (as is the bubblegum gun). I always just leave myself asking "what the hell else are they supposed to do?" when I see criticisms of both official DK movesets and fanmade Dixie movesets for being "just a generic animal"

 

[Opossum]

Whenever people talk about Donkey Kong characters' movesets in Smash, it feels like they completely forget that each character in a Donkey Kong game typically only has 2-to-3 abilities, offensive or otherwise, and one of them is always a functionally identical dash. While I think a unique Dixie would be cool, I don't really get why Dixie Kong HAS to be a unique character when she only has 3 moves, two of them are aesthetically identical, and one of them is basically just used as a fancy jump animation in the latest game. Perhaps a ponytail normal moveset would be cool, but that's already covered by a Diddy clone due to her not having a tail (as is the bubblegum gun). I always just leave myself asking "what the hell else are they supposed to do?" when I see criticisms of both official DK movesets and fanmade Dixie movesets for being "just a generic animal"

Honestly I always felt it was a bit weird that people suggested that Dixie couldn't even possibly be a semi-clone. Like not even "she can't be an echo," but "she HAS to be fully unique."

A lot of the movesets I see proposed for her that don't get the "too similar to Diddy" or "just a generic animal" complaints tend to focus on strictly her hair, making her fight more like Guilty Gear's Millia Rage or Marvel's Medusa, but like...her hair is absolutely not long enough to feasibly be used like how those characters do, to the point where that also feels off and out-of-character. Most of Diddy's moves could 100% be kept and make total sense.

I'll go even further: I think the biggest, most functional difference you can make doesn't even involve her hair, but the Bubblegum Gun. Make it explode on impact and become a sort of sticky trap that holds foes to the ground for a bit, letting her run up and grapple with her hair. That single, almost all-encompassing change would require...one altered special and a new set of grabs. And then the obligatory ponytail twirl up special. Maybe if you're feeling it you can even give her a new command grab special to replace the infamously-problematic banana that acts like Patrick's Star Slam in NASB, giving her two command grab specials (this and Monkey Flip) and a new set of grabs, firmly setting her apart as a grappler when compared to Diddy.

And such a change would require, at most, two new specials, one altered special, and a new set of grabs. The rest, minus the multi-hit jab which isn't even here anymore IIRC, could literally be lifted from Diddy with no problems at all.

 

[Perkilator]

Funnily enough, this exact conversation is being had in the next Smash thread as we speak.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'll go even further: I think the biggest, most functional difference you can make doesn't even involve her hair, but the Bubblegum Gun. Make it explode on impact and become a sort of sticky trap that holds foes to the ground for a bit, letting her run up and grapple with her hair.

Even though she doesn't have a Bubblegum Gun. She has a Gumball Gun that fires pre-chewed gumballs that would cause blunt force trauma.

I get that Smash can take liberties, but I feel this distinction should be pointed out because I've seen this exact idea brought up before as if it's something she already has in-game.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Posted this on Next Smash following a kinda awkward discussion of Rambi, probably fits better here.

This whole Rambi thing actually got me thinking on something I've thought about for a while: what is more important to a moveset: unique powers, or body/weapon movement? To me, when I think about a moveset, my first thought typically goes to air attacks before anything else, and then specials come last after even grabs, and I find that non-special attacks are most interesting when there's some kind of interesting shape to either a character or weapon, or even just a personality or more subtle power (non-offensive ability or generic effect - think Ness kinda floating around and creating little non-descript psychic effects) that comes through when attacking.

 

[UserKev]

Sakurai might have something against Takamaru. Initially he dismissed Takamaru for not being known outside Japan. No one really knew who Mr. Game & Watch was. Smash always introduced a near forgotten retro addition. I just find Sakurai's reasoning strange and interesting.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Sakurai might have something against Takamaru. Initially he dismissed Takamaru for not being known outside Japan. No one really knew who Mr. Game & Watch was. Smash always introduced a near forgotten retro addition. I just find Sakurai's reasoning strange and interesting.

I agree that "nobody knows who this is outside of Japan" is extremely BS logic, but Mr. Game & Watch is a terrible comparison because his series was for all extents and purposes ongoing - or at least easily accessible and widely marketed - at the time of Melee's release. Ice Climbers were the only truly quirky retro pick... but Smash needs to remedy that.

 

[UserKev]

I agree that "nobody knows who this is outside of Japan" is extremely BS logic, but Mr. Game & Watch is a terrible comparison because his series was for all extents and purposes ongoing - or at least easily accessible and widely marketed - at the time of Melee's release. Ice Climbers were the only truly quirky retro pick... but Smash needs to remedy that.

Is it really? You'd have to have been an Nintendo enthusiast to have been following Mr. Game & Watch. I almost mentioned Roy and Marth but yeah. I feel like people collectively knew who MG&W was but a casual would have found him.. off the wall.

 

[MartianSnake]

Is it really? You'd have to have been an Nintendo enthusiast to have been following Mr. Game & Watch. I almost mentioned Roy and Marth but yeah. I feel like people collectively knew who MG&W was but a casual would have found him.. off the wall.

Mr. Game and Watch was made up for Melee so TECHNICALLY nobody knew who he was, but I think Wario Wario Wario's point is less about specific characters and moreso the Game & Watch series itself

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Mr. Game and Watch was made up for Melee so TECHNICALLY nobody knew who he was, but I think Wario Wario Wario's point is less about specific characters and moreso the Game & Watch series itself

An example is the collection on the Gameboy with even Mr. Game & Watch appearing in the last game on the GBA which was after Melee. There were ports on the DS of the original games with Club Nintendo and DSiWare.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Honestly I always felt it was a bit weird that people suggested that Dixie couldn't even possibly be a semi-clone. Like not even "she can't be an echo," but "she HAS to be fully unique."

A lot of the movesets I see proposed for her that don't get the "too similar to Diddy" or "just a generic animal" complaints tend to focus on strictly her hair, making her fight more like Guilty Gear's Millia Rage or Marvel's Medusa, but like...her hair is absolutely not long enough to feasibly be used like how those characters do, to the point where that also feels off and out-of-character. Most of Diddy's moves could 100% be kept and make total sense.

One thought I had to bolster her a bit beyond was making Kiddy tag along with her and have both use techniques based on tag-team attacks as seeb across the entire DKC-franchise.

Still, I've never been against her being a semi-clone, especially when looking at her possible original inclusion attempt with Diddy in Brawl. But that only makes me more baffled on how she hasn't at least been explored as an inclusion to this point, even as an Echo. (As much as I'd hate the latter quite a bit.)

I'm currently pretty confident that by this point, it's just she's been deemed not very interesting on her own at all and also doesn't have much popularity to warrant an inclusion as an Echo or semi-clone up to this point. But I digress.

I think at best I'd imagine Dixie could have her ponytail be used to slightly higher range than Diddy's limbs to change good bit of her normals. Maybe Monkey Flip would be changed to a pony-tail based command and bolster her being a more aerially proficient fighter with some grappler moves like you wrote.

Sakurai might have something against Takamaru. Initially he dismissed Takamaru for not being known outside Japan. No one really knew who Mr. Game & Watch was. Smash always introduced a near forgotten retro addition. I just find Sakurai's reasoning strange and interesting.

Honestly I feel this going to C-Listers as a whole seems to only add more on them being on a constant lose-lose situation: Sakurai already deeming them too obscure will just keep them that way because Nintendo and their 2nd party companies themselves won't (or can't) bother with them any further beyond. Some revivals get being attempted but they really hinge at the original crew being around, which worked best for Famicom Detective Club, not so well for Advance Wars.


For as long as we've followed the series with these characters, haven't had new game for years and already not really being much for Nintendo to explore thinking of throwing in among their mainstream/new IP additions (Takamaru) - or if they got a new game, they get glossed over anyway due not interesting Sakurai in means of moveset on top of being from C-Tier IP anyway. (Isaac).

The only guy getting past this both ways so far has been Little Mac in Smash 4, thanks to Punch-Out Wii + Sakurai getting interested on Mac mainly due wanting to take how he functioned as an Assist Trophy in Brawl and turned to a full-blown character.

It's kinda annoys me as Smash would clearly rise any "dying" or "too obscure" IPs from such pits of irrelevancy due being introduced to millions of new fans, as we got to see with Fire Emblem (twice), and with Xenoblade Chronicles. Kid Icarus to lesser extent as Uprising did heavy lifting anyway. It's really what I wish Smash capitalized a bit more on since it introducing me to many IPs I didn't know before that had come to be my faves since.

It's why I've been wishing for the protags of such series being relegated to Assist Trophies, to get overhauled to be more integral part of the game through a partner system as I had discussed before. It'd make them at least become more notable part of Smash enough to help she more spotlight on these series without having to explore them with playable characters over the on-going relevant picks from newer IPs or installments of existing franchises.


Best shot they have as these summonable NPCs anyway, incase Isaac was brought back as an AT by popular request from the ballot.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Sakurai might have something against Takamaru. Initially he dismissed Takamaru for not being known outside Japan. No one really knew who Mr. Game & Watch was. Smash always introduced a near forgotten retro addition. I just find Sakurai's reasoning strange and interesting.

Tbf Takamaru's game had not been released in the west until the 3ds virtual console, where I believe it went untranslated and without much fanfare outside of one E3 Treehouse segment which was after the game had already been out for Europe, he does seem to actually like Murasame Castle a fair bit with the AT and some pics he made of I wanna say Smash 4 to reference Takamaru fighting the final boss

 

[TheZizz]

Harassing players who don't want to boycott the game is super based. (Happy April 1st!)

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Harassing players who don't want to boycott the game is super based. (Happy April 1st!)

I get this is an april fools joke, but... is this like a reference to some niche internet drama? What? Is it about Hogwarts or something and you just posted it on a Smash thread?????

 

[TheZizz]

I get this is an april fools joke, but... is this like a reference to some niche internet drama? What? Is it about Hogwarts or something and you just posted it on a Smash thread?????

That you're unaware is to your credit. It's basically the plot of subspace emissary ("when trophies stop fighting...") made manifest on netplay. But apparently ultimate is not so prone to this phenomenon

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

That you're unaware is to your credit. It's basically the plot of subspace emissary ("when trophies stop fighting...") made manifest on netplay. But apparently ultimate is not so prone to this phenomenon

If I had a nickel for every time someone started making vague allusions that come off as dog-whistley but are actually completely harmless in context and could've just been directly communicated...

 

[TheZizz]

If I had a nickel for every time someone started making vague allusions that come off as dog-whistley but are actually completely harmless in context and could've just been directly communicated...

Harassment? That's why smash 4 had that draconian "anti-spam" auto-kick feature. Presumably because sakurai witnessed his kid nephew get lynched unmerciful for no obvious reason, and wept in lamentation at the smash community that can't help but eat itself

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Harassment? That's why smash 4 had that draconian "anti-spam" auto-kick feature. Presumably because sakurai witnessed his kid nephew get lynched unmerciful for no obvious reason, and wept in lamentation at the smash community that can't help but eat itself

You don't need to mince a million words just to say "taunt parties". That's what fandom slang is for. Your comment came off as nonsensical at best and a little sus at worst (as I mentioned, it read to me like a Hogwarts joke) without that context you could have VERY easily provided.

 

[TheZizz]

You don't need to mince a million words just to say "taunt parties". That's what fandom slang is for. Your comment came off as nonsensical at best and a little sus at worst (as I mentioned, it read to me like a Hogwarts joke) without that context you could have VERY easily provided.

Because they were taunt parties in name only, I'll call em for what they are. The 64/melee scene never took slight from an attack, well outside of grade school anyway.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Because they were taunt parties in name only, I'll call em for what they are. The 64/melee scene never took slight from an attack, well outside of grade school anyway.

Ultimate has an official system to deal with that - the Playhouse ruleset, I think it's called IIRC, for public rooms, which automatically bans players who attack - and it got a lot of use at least when I was playing Ult.

 

[TheZizz]

Ultimate has an official system to deal with that - the Playhouse ruleset, I think it's called IIRC, for public rooms, which automatically bans players who attack - and it got a lot of use at least when I was playing Ult.

That sounds pretty cool.

Well I can't tell you how many times I pulled a few wins in 1v1 For Glory, then I lose and find out they were raging the whole time, like they thought I was mocking them from behind the screen from literally just fighting (no taunts t-bags dashdance etc.). It might be that I constantly switch characters or something. Just, a whole lot of preconceptions about the faceless opponent. Maybe they'd rather be doing something besides playing smash, and maybe that's a good instinct. Idk. These games were always world class entertainment to me, warts and all. And maybe no game for it's time was more hype than Brawl with the insane legendary Pokemon and all the rest of it. So it was a damn shame that I couldn't utilize the entire 120 seconds to start throwing down as it became too easy to camp at 0 deaths without every precious second. Narf

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I enjoyed taunt parties back in the day but they got old after a while due to how frequent they showed up, which itself was a consequence of how flawed and unmoderated Brawl's online with anyone mode was.

I'm glad Smash 4 and Ultimate introduced measures that effectively did away with them outside of matches with friends. I do remember encountering a few groups of players trying to start taunt parties in the early days of Smash 4, but they went away pretty quickly, probably due to said new measures preventing those people from playing if they kept it up too much.

 

[RodNutTakin]

In the spirit of April Fools and on the current subject, let me say as a Popular Opinion...Taunt Parties were always terrible, especially since For Fun in SSB4 was very much a random gamble on if you'd get a real FFA match or one of those things. Getting 3v1ed for just wanting to play the game instead of wasting my time idling and crouch spamming was absolutely crap. Would you want to go on Mario Kart online only to enter a lobby of people doing donuts in place on the racetrack? No.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Taunt parties really were mostly just kids having fun in an unconventional way. I don't think they were some grave injustice or anything even before they were actually remedied. Very much a - say it with me - systemic issue with Smash's online circa Brawl (one that was solved) not at all born from active malice.

 

[TheZizz]

Taunt parties really were mostly just kids having fun in an unconventional way. I don't think they were some grave injustice or anything even before they were actually remedied. Very much a - say it with me - systemic issue with Smash's online circa Brawl (one that was solved) not at all born from active malice.

To be fair there wasn't much in the way of alternatives for multiplayer cozy sims. But for every Jigglypuff player who would just sit in a corner and say well I'm not getting involved, there were ten nipping at the bud to ruin your day for kicks. When it wouldn't take much for someone like me to join in, or even the playing field with a terrible character...or more likely leave without incident, and hope I can find another lobby in less than 10 minutes. And the chance of that new one having no scruples or not taking things personally was sub fifty percent. Brawl deserved better.

And incidentally I've seen more creative taunting from the stupid CPUs that would randomly spawn. Like this one wario did a three-piece on a smash ball, and taunted before activating the final smash. Lul. Brawl had so much heart