Wario's Matchups - Free discussion!

[\Apples]

So, we all dread Fox. I want to pool knowledge together on this matchup. Most of all, what do you guys do in the neutral game vs him? What stages to you ban and where do you CP?

I'm at such a loss vs Silent Wolf's Fox, it's just overwhelming. I freeze up when he pulls the Fox out, and I don't know what to do. I don't want to switch characters for now, I want to exhaust all of my options before I do that. I want to overcome this matchup and I want to stay true to my main fat man. Winner's Semi's this weekend was a close match game 1 versus the Wolf (I know the matchup much much better and I think Wario does okay against Wolf in comparison, though the matchup is still in Wolf's favor IMO.) But after game 1 he just switched to Fox and 2 and 3 stocked me for a clean 3-0. I played super poorly because I panicked, and I feel like I can do a lot better but I need some direction, something to focus on in the matchup so that I can improve with some sort of goal in mind. A lot of this inexperience is specific to Fox for me. Nobody plays him in P:M here at all, and SW goes 100% Wolf in P:M until he gets scared he'll lose, then he just switches to Fox and it's over since I'm defenseless.

I eagerly wait your input.

 

[DMG]

How well do you CG and edgeguard Spacies? That's what it tends to boil down to IMO: winning in neutral is too hard so you basically have to make those hits and grabs count for a ton. I can't think of any approaching advice besides DACUS, but I'm not used to implementing it in PM because it was a really bad choice in Brawl for Wario. You can only outspace Fox aerials with Bair IIRC (talking about your own aerials only, you can outspace a lot with Ftilt), but that's too obvious and needs better timing than other options.

Even though it sounds counter intuitive, I'd probably stay on the ground vs Fox. In fact, I'd even venture trying to crawl or walk towards him as an approach. Threaten to CC low % approaches: if he starts to use Dair instead of Nair, you have better chances of beating or trading with it using your own aerial quickly. If the stage isn't massive/bad platforms, you can do decent. Smaller stages seem to be better overall, gives you more chances to get favorable trades and to control space in Wario's own strong/unorthodox ways.

 

[\Apples]

I knew edgeguarding would play a huge part, I haven't gotten it down to a science yet vs Fox though cause I haven't played against him much so when I do get that grab on him and bthrow him off the stage, I often blow it and end up getting killed so in tournament I just stayed on stage and let him back every time cause I was too afraid.

It makes sense to stay grounded actually. You can't really bait him with weaving at all, he has the advantage against all of your aerials and you can't just throw out Bites at all if the Fox is vigilant and doesn't fall for random moves. It just sucks cause I have to maintain distance and if he just pushes me to the ledge I have to go into the air or Side+B at him. I tried throwing dash grabs at him when in that situation, but Fox's nair just wrecks the dash grab and the Side+B, so he has it easy. He can CC my Fair, Nair and Uair, it's too easy for him to move out of the way of Dair and likewise too hard for me to get Dair reads on him, and Bair has no follow ups.

Side+B is easy to react to as Fox and it's certainly not an approach and he's too fast to reliably Bite. Ftilt and Utilt are too telegraphed, Dtilt can be CC'd forever, CC Fsmash is good at higher percents when you need to get him off you, off stage, or get that kill, and Usmash.. well Usmash sucks unless you dacus. Which I need to learn.

Like... seriously Fox sucks. He's so damn hard. SW never falls for any of Wario's shenanegans at all, when you fight a really smart Fox, it just feels so hopeless. I don't think Wario should ever win this matchup assuming two players of equal skill. Not saying we're equal, he's way better, and that's certainly a factor here. I'm just really starting to feel like Wario doesn't have what it takes to beat Fox. If the matchup boils down to grabs and the Fox knows how to not get grabbed, Wario simply loses. He bans FD, GHZ, and whatever else he's personally uncomfortable with, and he's got it easy. On seemingly every other stage, Fox wins.

 

[DMG]

The only stages that feel good are YS and FoD. Everything else feels too big, or not good enough to stop Fox from winning. Usually if I beat a Fox with him, they don't have extensive practice vs Wario. Bad DI on throw mixups, a crucial missed tech or two from janky attacks, etc

 

[SixSaw]

So I figured it might be nice if we started putting together an overall MU spread for Wario.

I went ahead and made this template, along with my own current personal opinions as a starting point for discussion:

The rating system is pretty vague, and definitely subject to change. Generally: green = favorable, yellow = close to even, orange = unfavorable, red = especially unfavorable.

Again this chart is in no way definitive or final. These ratings are just my opinion and I'm nowhere close to an expert. Feel free to point out anything you feel is inaccurate, or make your own version. This will no doubt be a long term project.

 

[DMG]

Where can I find a blank template for that?

 

[SixSaw]

Where can I find a blank template for that?

 

[\Apples]

So, just glancing at yours quick, SixSaw; based on my knowledge, here are my corrections.

Yoshi is favorable for Wario, I play this MU very often vs a competent Yoshi. Wario is strong here. Bite negates his armor, which is a huge edge Yoshi normally has vs other characters.
Charizard is also favorable, I also have much experience here.
DK is close to even IMO, if anything, Wario does better.
I think Mewtwo is close to even, I play a lot of solid Mewtwos out here in Seattle.
Diddy is really hard, but it might be closer to even so you might be right.
I think ROB is super close to even as well, not disadvantageous. You must be patient with him.
Zelda has been easy in my experience, but I haven't played a really good Zelda either.
Oh, Lucas... you may be surprised but I think Wario wins this matchup pretty convincingly. Iceman plays a decent Lucas and I don't have too much trouble.

The rest I either agree with or don't have enough information to conclude confidently.

 

[Grinpis]

I think that is good for a general idea, but I suggest as in other forums, to discuss every matchup.

How we do that ?

Every 2 weeks we discuss the matchup with X character.

Or we just simply open a thread discussing 2 or 3 characters and speak about it, during 2 weeks after that open another.....

At the same time We open a general MU thread and we put everything in that thread.

 

[Strong Badam]

The problem with that is the game changes every year or so, so after you get through half of the cast some of the matchups you've discussed have changed (or all of them if Wario received significant changes).

I'm just going to throw out some of my opinions with little backing because I can XP
I think Wario loses to DK -1 in Brawl's matchup terms.
I could see him losing to Zard.
I don't think he loses to Ike.
I don't think he loses to at least TL that hard, and probably not Link either.
Fox & Marth are definitely his hadest MUs, nothing else comes close. I do not plan to use Wario against any competent Fox. I use him against a local Fox player just because I can but ideally I would be going DK in that MU (same with Marth). I think Fox wins neutral too hard and Wario doesn't exactly demolish him after hitting him either.
IMO Marth is more doable but Reflex has some personal problems with that MU (his only losses in this game since 2.5's release are to Marth).
ATM I think Wario loses to Mewtwo because M2 has such a range advantage. In practice you may experience otherwise because it's rare for Mewtwo's to have knowledge of the MU, but that applies to all MUs.
I'd be surprised if Wario beats Dedede, I'd put that closer to even. A good DDD is not to be trifled with.
I would not be surprised if Samus beat Wario. Taking to the air can be precarious with missiles flying around and Wario doesn't combo floaties particularly hard.
DEFINITELY think Mario beats Wario. Potentially Luigi too.
Wario does not beat Sheik, it's even at best for Wario imo.
I think Snake beats Wario.

Rest of your chart seems fairly accurate. Only time will tell. Thinking about some of these MUs makes me sad lol, Wario's lack of range is such a huge weakness =/

 

[DMG]

Yeah I agree with just about everything you said regarding his MU's.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario's standard gameplan is largely stuffed by Marth's standard gameplan. Your usually-safe F-Air pressure gets caught often, and most of your ground-ish pokes risk getting grabbed into a painful string. You have to grab him to make much happen but he has way better range, superior mobility in "threatening" neutral and gets more for grabbing you. It is definitely a difficult matchup.

 

[\Apples]

The problem with that is the game changes every year or so, so after you get through half of the cast some of the matchups you've discussed have changed (or all of them if Wario received significant changes).

I'm just going to throw out some of my opinions with little backing because I can XP
I think Wario loses to DK -1 in Brawl's matchup terms.
I could see him losing to Zard.
I don't think he loses to Ike.
I don't think he loses to at least TL that hard, and probably not Link either.
Fox & Marth are definitely his hadest MUs, nothing else comes close. I do not plan to use Wario against any competent Fox. I use him against a local Fox player just because I can but ideally I would be going DK in that MU (same with Marth). I think Fox wins neutral too hard and Wario doesn't exactly demolish him after hitting him either.
IMO Marth is more doable but Reflex has some personal problems with that MU (his only losses in this game since 2.5's release are to Marth).
ATM I think Wario loses to Mewtwo because M2 has such a range advantage. In practice you may experience otherwise because it's rare for Mewtwo's to have knowledge of the MU, but that applies to all MUs.
I'd be surprised if Wario beats Dedede, I'd put that closer to even. A good DDD is not to be trifled with.
I would not be surprised if Samus beat Wario. Taking to the air can be precarious with missiles flying around and Wario doesn't combo floaties particularly hard.
DEFINITELY think Mario beats Wario. Potentially Luigi too.
Wario does not beat Sheik, it's even at best for Wario imo.
I think Snake beats Wario.

Rest of your chart seems fairly accurate. Only time will tell. Thinking about some of these MUs makes me sad lol, Wario's lack of range is such a huge weakness =/

Tell me about the DK & Ike matchups?

I agree about DDD, Mario and Samus. And you may be right about M2. In theory, I'd think Zard would do very well against Wario too, but it never seems to play out that way in my experience.

Luigi is so fast on the ground, definitely a potential bad MU, word.

 

[Strong Badam]

zard has no good players after metroid stopped using him so that'll happen

 

[-Fatality-]

Yomi says hi

 

[0RLY]

vs. Fox
Though my locals don't play nearly as gdlk of a fox as Silent Wolf, they have all pretty much stopped trying to use fox against me because of how I play the match up. Idk if it will help you guys, but I'll do what I can, yeah?
The set-up: Play the smallest stage possible. FD is okay because of your uthrow cg, but you get super laser camped here and counter-camping on the ledge risks getting shine spiked due to Wario's poor vertical acceleration. Use platforms to avoid lasers. Force fox to approach you, but make sure there's sufficient space behind you to retreat. Like, about a shffl'd fox nair's length away so that it will miss completely.
Conditionals:
If you block a nair to shine, use the c-stick to buffer a roll away. It's your only out. You can pretend to be Samus and up-b OoS, but only if there's a platform above you. Mix up passing through and landing on the platform if you're not in a position to ledge cancel. Always ledge cancel if possible. The problem with up-b OoS is that fox can waveshine in any direction and you have to aim your up-b to hit him depending on which direction fox goes. That can affect your ability to ledge cancel or even miss out right.
If you successfully outspace Fox and he misses his shffl, close in for a jc grab. Bthrow and swing back. Get that fox offstage. Full hop off after him. You should be on his tail like a shadow. The moment he jumps, nair. Win. If he jumps early (low%), you can double fair into dj fair. Recover. If he jumps late, usually because you're getting free stocks every time you do this, return to the ledge and drop off nair as when he gets close as he is forced to do the 45 degree firefox. Trading your nair with his firefox charge works too. If he waits and dj super late, like offscreen, he will be more below you than in-front b/c of fox's fall speed. You can nail him with a dair, bounce off, dj, recover. For fox to avoid this near-impenetrable on-reaction edgeguarding scheme, he must dj away so that Wario cannot intercept with nair or fair during the full hop, then immediately illusion to like a battlefield platform or something (high percent only). The only way to beat this is to preemptively dj at the top of your full hop and nair. Since this is a hard read, it can fail but it's an option.
If you aren't in a position where bthrow can put fox offstage, just uthrow cg. If fox ends up on a platform, you can tech chase bite to usmash > regrab/utilt/usmash/edgeguard.
Dat grab:
Since you can touch of death fox with this method, Fox will play extra campy and dodge more to avoid that grab. During this time, you can play your neutral game more confidently now that fox will avoid closing the gap between you without an opening.
Neutral: Nair a lot. Dropthrough nairs. Dropzone nairs (from platforms). Wario's fair tends to lose air-trades with fox, while nair tends to go even. Dash attack (high%)/Dacus helps you against fox's dash dance. The goal of these nairs is to zone out fox, so that he can't close in with dash attack, grabs, and stuff. It forces him to do things like full hop dair, or running usmash. Running usmash is easier to punish due to wario's mobility, and the full hop is telegraphed easily enough. In the neutral game, you can't play as reactively due to fox's superior speed, so you have to be more proactive using this method.

vs. Marth.
i h8 marf

vs. MK
i h8 flying marf

 

[SixSaw]

I'm starting to mind Fox less because you can at least make something significant of your rare openings.

The same can't be said for Marth. I'm honestly beginning to think this MU is like 2:8 or worse. I could go into greater detail about how Wario loses to Marth in just about every scenario, but really all that needs to be said is: Marth can just sit back and punish anything Wario does on reaction due to his massive range and speed advantage. He has no reason to commit ever. It's just feels so totally one-sided in a way the Fox or MK MUs aren't that I don't see how Wario could ever win against a Marth player that really knows the MU.

It's especially frustrating to me because I really want to stick with this character. I'm willing to deal with bad matchups, but I feel more and more like the Marth MU goes a step beyond bad into hard-counter territory. Having a MU like this with anyone, let alone someone as ubiquitous as Marth, makes it harder to justify putting in the time to master this character. Honestly, as much as I dislike begging for buffs, I can't help but think that Wario needs something more to be truly viable. Whether it's slightly increased range/ disjoint on some attacks (Hardly unreasonable, I think, when another character whose weakness is 'poor range', Mario, can still beat out Wario's whole moveset with his bair in addition to having one of the best projectiles), armor of some kind, or a return to pre-3.0 endlag on aerials/ dtilt, just something to help round out his weaknesses which are imo too polarizing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

For all it's worth, you can CC a Marth F-Air and proceed to D-Tilt forward at lower percents.

 

[SixSaw]

If Marth is in the air and you're not, he's already messed up somewhere though.

 

[DrMcNugget]

I've always thought wario beat the ice climbers.
Down smash messes nana up pretty bad.
Side-B/Dash Grab are great options because of the shield delay on nana.
If you seperate them then back throw can put them into edgeguard positions.

but I suck so what do I know

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I imagine they can't threaten rising F-Air very much, which is a great thing to hear.

 

[SixSaw]

ICs seem like yet another abysmal MU for Wario imo.

Fast, disjointed hammer hitboxes with high active frames make it a real challenge for Wario to get in, even before you factor in desyncs, icebergs and blizzards controlling space, etc. You basically lose your bite and grab options while nana is alive since she, or popo if, god forbid, you get the wrong one, will just hit you out of them (Side-B is worthless as well since 9 times out of 10 you will only hit one of them and be left a sitting duck for the other). This presents a problem since Wario hasn't got much else to reliably separate them. It goes without saying that the grab punishes with both climbers are brutal, but sopo also has chaingrabs that would make Mario jealous. Meanwhile their light weight and floatiness make Wario's follow-up options pretty limited.

Thankfully there are only like 2 people who play ICs in PM, but if you happen you play one of them, I'd recommend choosing a different character.

 

[Strong Badam]

it's literally not possible to hit both of them with sideb. same with dair. the moves are programmed to terminate hitboxes immediately following hitting an opponent.
that said, bite is def not worthless. afaik when you do the chomp for damage, it has a bit of an AOE hitbox that hits non-grabbed opponents as well. i'd be more concerned about how quickly they maneuver with wavedashing wrt bite's effectiveness. it's a lot easier to get a read on slower opponents for bites in neutral.

 

[SixSaw]

I'm almost positive I hit both of them with a SideB and dair at least once. Maybe it connected with both on the same frame?

 

[Strong Badam]

Okay yeah you're right, if you hit them both on the same frame those moves work. Very rare against humans though.

 

[WINK ;)]

I get the vibe Wario is good at the Ike matchup because he is an in and out sort of character however I do not know how to use this potential. I have problems with Ike. :/

Can someone just give me a few pointers on their knowledge of the matchup?

 

[SixSaw]

Wario-Ike is probably not in Wario's favor, but probably not very bad either. 50-50 or maybe 45-55 but not much worse than that. Ike is kind of like a Marth that is only capable of exerting himself in quick bursts. Like Marth, you don't really ever get to be the aggressor vs him, but unlike Marth, he has to commit a lot to his offense and is very vulnerable on whiff. I don't really have too much to say about this MU atm other than that Wario's aerial weaving is ineffective against Ike because his massive hitboxes + high air speed mean he can just not give a **** about it and invade your space in the air whenever he wants. You're better off staying grounded and baiting things with dd.

 

[WINK ;)]

Wario-Ike is probably not in Wario's favor, but probably not very bad either. 50-50 or maybe 45-55 but not much worse than that. Ike is kind of like a Marth that is only capable of exerting himself in quick bursts. Like Marth, you don't really ever get to be the aggressor vs him, but unlike Marth, he has to commit a lot to his offense and is very vulnerable on whiff. I don't really have too much to say about this MU atm other than that Wario's aerial weaving is ineffective against Ike because his massive hitboxes + high air speed mean he can just not give a **** about it and invade your space in the air whenever he wants. You're better off staying grounded and baiting things with dd.

Ahhh, I figured the high aerial speed was the reason he would do well... hmm... well thank nevermind. It does make sense why it wouldnt. But I gotcha! Im gonna keep seeing what the strat for the matchup is.

 

[Strong Badam]

You generally want to avoid going airborne against sword characters. Not always but usually. One of the main reasons Marth beats Wario so hard.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

until the entire pm community refers to wario's side taunt as the twerk team, I can never rest.

 

[Strong Badam]

so yeah i played m2k today and it kind of re-affirmed my thoughts on the marth/fox MUs. i think fox is easier slightly

 

[TheReflexWonder]

1, 2, 3, 4! 1, 2, 3, 4!

Left!...Left!...Left, right, left!

 

[0RLY]

Twerk lesson #1:
Rhythmically alternate between crawl back and crouch
Gradually increase speed
Watch dat booty bounce
Optional: Whisper "wah" with each booty bump in waluigi's voice into your opponent's ear.

vs. Ike
Run into him head first and shield right outside of his jab/grab range. If he tilts, grab him. If he whiffs his jab, grab him. If he shields, let go of yours and prepare for him to either miss his grab or nair OoS. It's quite easy to react to Ike this way. It denies him his quickdraw tricks and it keeps you safe against his shffls, and Ike has weak options from his dash dance, so you'll always have the upper hand. Eventually, Ike will get grab happy when he catches on to you. That usually means that Ike is on the aggressive side and you can freely aerial around again.

You'll want to be under platforms to discourage him from using spaced fairs. Stay grounded to avoid getting juggled by his aerials. UpB OoS if he goes for the jab combo on your shield. You usually want to attempt it right when he does the jab2 so you can outplay his grab mix-up as well as his jab3. Dtilt is good behind Ike's shield so he has no opportunity to bair OoS. It isn't that hard to dair Ike right out of his side-b since even if you do it late, you'll still hit him out of the wall jump. Worst case, he up-b's immediately out of the wall jump and you just land back on stage.

Deny him from using side-b. Shield > Ike's buttons. Nair OoS if you shield at the wrong time, like if you're in Ike's grab range... which is in 2 places: too close to ike, and too far from ike when he gets a side-b off.

 

[SixSaw]

My updated MU thoughts, now using brawl's rating system:

Feel free to ask for more detailed explanation/ justification of anything.

Biggest changes from last time:
I was definitely wrong about Wario beating Mario.
I think Wario beats Yoshi soundly
I think Wario loses (slightly) to Falco + Wolf. These MU's are absolutely winnable, but I don't think they can really be called even when Wario pretty much relies on them messing up their pressure to make conversions (even though he only needs a handful to win).
Wario definitely does not beat Puff. In my experience this MU plays out like a puff ditto where their bair and weaving are better than yours.
I think ICs are one of Wario's worst MUs. (I had actually never played the ICs MU when I made my first MU chart lol)

MUs I'm less sure about:
CFalcon - My gut tells me Wario loses but that may be and likely is due to my not knowing how to fight him properly. Atm though I feel like Falcon's dashdancing and aerial approaches are tough for Wario to deal with.
ICs - I may be jumping the gun a bit calling them -3. My experience in the MU is admittedly limited and I may discover tricks to make it more manageable with further practice, but for the time being that's how I feel.

Also, the spread averages out to -0.775 or -1 rounded, and while this chart obviously isn't close to perfect, I don't think it's MASSIVELY far off for the most part so make of that what you will.

 

[0RLY]

Ganon is easy. Ganon is the easiest thing to combo and edgeguard in the world. Everything he does is unsafe on block. Very easy to outspace.

Sheik is hard. Sheik will tech chase you to oblivion because Wario tech rolls slower than the rolls under his chin.

Olimar is easy. You have plenty of tools to stuff his Pikmin and the edgeguard is a joke. Only thing you really need to watch out for is fair.

I personally think Sonic is easy. You just really need to get good at identifying what he does since everything looks and sounds similar. Shoulder Bash > spinning blue things. Get good at DIing correctly also, since everything, again, looks and sounds the same, you really need to be able to identify what Sonic is doing in order to DI right. I personally do down+away for side-b to stay grounded, potentially crouch cancel, and either tank or block the incoming aerial or homing attack. Nair is percentage dependent. Down-b I go up and behind if they're on top of me.

G-watch is hard imo, because I can't stop stuffing my face full of his meat.
Wat do?

 

[SixSaw]

vs G&W you want to stay grounded and dd grab a lot. Between bacon and fair he pretty much owns the air.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I struggle with the G&W matchup, because when I stay grounded, all my approaches get dtilted.

 

[\Apples]

Agree with 0RLy on Ganon, Sheik and Olimar.

G&W it seems everyone agrees. G&W is an asshole. He denies us of everything we want to do: be free in the air and his UpB OOS is hella fast and annoying. He wins the CC battle too. If you can get in on him though, combos are EZ and he's hella light and easy to edgeguard. On stage is really hard though.

SixSaw:
Vs Falcon... I haven't had that much trouble. I've never felt like he's been free, ever, but I've never lost a MM or TM to a Falcon as Wario. It could be MU inexperience on their part though and plus I could see Falcon being harder than he's been for me.

Vs Falco & Wolf, I agree. They both have a slight advantage over Wario.

Vs Puff, I love fighting Puff. But I also always have. I've never ever run into a Puff I was afraid of. I don't know why, I'm just very good against her and it doesn't seem to matter my character. So... I'm inclined to abstain on my opinion of the MU because I just think Puff sucks. /shrug

 

[Juushichi]

GnW most definitely does not win the CC war vs Wario. o_O Aerial weaving/plat camping and dash back grounded Wario both do well vs most GnW styles.

The matchup is pretty close to even (I used to think it as bad as 4-6, but now lean towards 45-55) and this is because:
1. GnW struggles to get in.
2. GnW struggles just enough trying to edgeguard Wario.
3. Wario's damage output / momentum snowballing can make deficits (which exacerbates 1/2) very difficult to come back from unless the GnW really slows the game down and stays extra patient.

I've played against basically what I believe are 4 of the stronger Wario players around (Reflex [Best or 2nd best in ATL/S], Strong Bad [Top 5 MW probably], Carls [#1 Columbus/top X Ohio], and LOE1 [Top 3 - MI]) at various points, all of which who have different styles.

 

[SSS]

My friend mains Wario and in my experience my Kirby has trouble with him while my Snake does pretty well. Take that how you will. I will say, though, that with an Inhale-happy Kirby, Wario's side-B/grab mixup doesn't work anymore.