Wario's Matchups - Free discussion!

[DMG]

I left a lot blank, and probably half of the grey squares mean that I'm not sure who might have a slight edge on the other (instead of being a definitive even MU). Some of his advantages I probably also have a tad conservative, since it's very hard sometimes to tell when he has a consistently large edge, due to being so mixup/crossup/DI dependant.

 

[jtm94]

Thank you greatly for the input!
All things taken into account and updated.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Not sure if this is the place to ask this, since I couldn't find a Wario social.

I'm wondering, what is the generally agreed upon best version of Wario? Did he have anything notable in previous versions (i.e. like Charizard's 2.5 infinite glide) that has since been taken out? I'm making a custom version of P:M with the best versions of all characters in it. Thanks again!

 

[CyberZixx]

2.5 and 2.6 Wario were both noticeably better than current Wario. 2.5 was probably the best but I never played Wario then.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Alright then. Thanks so much!

If anyone thinks 2.6 is the best, let me know. As of now I'll be going with 2.5.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

2.6 is the best by a noticeable amount, I feel. Feel free to compare:

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wario_(PM)#2.5b

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Got it. I'd definitely take your recommendations. 2.6 it is, thanks!

 

[Megapants]

any good footage or tips for the mewtwo matchup? it's a nightmare getting juggled and there's so many big stages for him to just camp and punish your approaches. i have a hard time pressuring m2's shield and dealing with the tail tilts :x

 

[adPEXtwinDoNG]

any good footage or tips for the mewtwo matchup? it's a nightmare getting juggled and there's so many big stages for him to just camp and punish your approaches. i have a hard time pressuring m2's shield and dealing with the tail tilts :x

S@X Weekly Coney vs Smash God
From personal experience you have to be ready to bite and read their teleports. Always trade with the tail if you're going to get hit. Bait out attacks with aerial mobility. Don't be above them on a platform. (They can just uptilt for days).
Mewtwo DTilt beats Wario DTilt in range. Sometimes I get locked into DTilt trades.
I don't think Wario has enough in his toolkit for the neutral game to actually approach. (At least against Mewtwo and his projectiles)
So be patient and wait for them to do something out of teleport.

 

[NickLeo]

honestly, m2 vs wario is one of wario's hardest matchups
If you're a dedicated main and don't have a character to switch out to, well spaced bairs and surprise side Bs are all that will save you
Wario normally likes to be above characters, but needs to avoid that at all costs vs m2 due to his significantly more impressive range

 

[Megapants]

thanks for the tips. another tough thing about this matchup is that its really hard to combo him and to set up kills. mewtwo just flies so far away from most anything that isn't dthrow or bite. i find i have to throw out just raw spaced moves like bair or shoulder to land kills on this dude. any advice on kill sets ups in this matchup?

I also had a hard time dealing with a heavy teleport abusing m2 yesterday. one of my weaknesses as wario is oos options. any tips on dealing with float nair on your shield? wavedash and nair out of shield is the only option i've really even tried but nothing else really seems safe and there's no chance to punish. is bite a good option vs this approach?

also can i get some tips on the link matchup too? main thing i had a hard time with was when i got in i'd get wrecked by jab. i know i should crouch cancel more but link has a good crouch cancel game too. any advice on going in on this character?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

He has a pretty decent crouch cancel game, but with his fastest move being down smash, there isn't much he can do to you at low percents, except getting you off him. Your best bet is to crouch cancel into grab at low percents so you can set up into tech chase.

In neutral, try weaving in and out around him and to get him to throw out a laggy move, which is most of what he has, and then punish accordingly. Keep in mind also that your fair destroys his boomerang, so if he throws one, just stick your foot out. Also link has a pretty difficult time killing you until the 150s where as you can gimp/kill him significantly earlier.

The only way he can really confirm a kill from those percents is down throw to dair or maybe uair, but his grab is kinda slow and he can't grab you out of the air, unless he touches you with his hand, so you don't have to respect it a whole lot. He can recover from a lot, but its pretty easy to knock him out of things. So just keep pressure on him when you get him to the edge and you'll get him eventually, there isn't a whole lot he can do about it. I honestly find his tether the easiest to deal with.

So hopefully this helps you a bit. Sorry I've got a lot of link experience, but I feel I'm not the best writing my thoughts on the matter over the internet lol.

 

[0RLY]

I base my following suggestions after fighting Taj at Apex, beating random mewtwos at SSS and sktar, and watching Jreed fight Emukiller at the same SSS.

To beat teleport. You must shffl nairs the MOMENT you see the teleport happen. You're going to tell me, "oh there's no way, it's too fast!" IT ISN'T. There's like a 7 frame window to tech. If you can react to that, you can react to teleport. M2's jumpsquat is 5 frames (though he might not teleport, you can at least anticipate it). M2's teleport is 23 frames PLUS the startup for nair 5 frames. You have over a half a second to react to that.
Why nair? Nair covers both behind and in front of you. You're not going to give M2 that luxury of crossing you up. Plus, if you hit with the weak hitbox of nair, by nairing ASAP, you can get a follow up off it! Aerials and grabs net the greatest reward. SB is also good if you can catch M2 right before he hits the ground.

Neutral. Stay exactly in teleport range. WOW! It sounds so counter intuitive but so many M2 players are conditioned to teleport in when given the opportunity. So much so that while you're weaving in and out, the idea to teleport repeatedly pops into their mind "I can teleport now and nail him". As you've learned from earlier, you can stuff teleport no biggie, so this will hurt the M2 a lot. BONUS. At this range, M2 isn't safe if he misses a shadow ball so he will be less likely to use it. If he does, you can just charge in with your dash grab or aerial/bite.

His next choice of action will likely be some sort of wd into a tilt. By staying in teleport range, you have plenty of leeway to keep out of that range and potentially punish. On successful shield, nair OoS was reliable enough for me. If you end up shielding one of those nairs, buffer a roll away if you have the stage space. M2 can punish if you roll behind him. If you don't roll, M2 will mix up with either a float fair or grab. You don't have an option that beats both. Sidestep beats grab and stay shielding beats fair. Pick at random I guess.

Avoid low platform stages. Avoid large stages. If you must pick a stage with platforms, pick one with the highest available platform instead of ones where M2 can utilt you. GHZ is a pretty good one. For some reason M2 can teleport from the ground into float on this stage so the teleport nairs are 5 frames faster. It's no big deal. You still have a ton of time to react. If the M2 player knows this, you may even be able to bait out more teleports - which you can punish! FD is good. DL64 is awful because M2 will never die. Most M2 players ban the small stages so you can't pick those. If they don't, pick them. YS and WW. The rate at which M2 dies will make up for the low platforms. Besides, it's not like there aren't high platforms on the stage also. PS2 favors M2 slightly due to low platforms and M2 can kill you off the top (uthrow) easier than you can (uair). BF and FoD are even. SV and FD favor you the best.

vs. Link
don't get grabbed.
bait and punish.
if you manage to get in due to a missed boomerang, choose your move so that the kb send Link up to avoid the boomerang on it's way back
dthrow dacus to uair juggles is excellent.
bair is a safe poke that nets you stage control and a great ko option
when you go in for those shffl aerials and you get shielded, don't always pull back. Link wants you there. Land behind him whenever possible. It may deter him from attempting a grab even though his buttcheeks can clamp down on you and cause you to appear in his hands. why.png
ledgedrop nair is best edgeguard.
create these opportunities by threatening SB if he attempts to recover high.
the best position to be in is the space where he's tempted to throw something at you but you're still close enough to jump over and fastfall aerial/bite. Then 50/50 between immediately attacking or dj somewhere to avoid utilt/usmash before you punish.
try getting gud at powershielding. even if you mess up the 1 frame reflect, brawl's easy 2 frame powershield will still keep your shield healthy to try again.
dacus and dash attack can close the gap real fast if Link is keeping you out a lot.

I mainly fight campy links so idk if my advice here will help vs. your link. That dude can do everything.

 

[Megapants]

cool guys. thanks so much for the in-depth feedback.

i was just practicing some of wario's aerials and i noticed that sh fair auto cancels if you don't fast fall so i'm gonna try messing with that to deal with boomerang/arrows and possibly for shield pressure. i've been working on my nair edgeguards too so hopefully that will help me get some easier kills on link. i need to work on my reaction time in this matchup too because split second decisions between shield and jump are killing me vs boomerang. i keep getting nugged in the air.

ORLY, i'll work on my spacing and reaction time vs teleport. that seems like the best option. and i'm just bad at dealing with shield pressure in general i don't like playing oos haha. i'll work on my roll timing vs float nair.

another mewtwo question: how do i DI utilt and uair? i've been going up and away and that's just getting me juggled to oblivion. should i go like towards and up instead so i get knocked behind m2?

 

[0RLY]

Don't just limit yourself to shield and jump. If your opponent knows that, he has a 50/50. Occasionally sidestep or roll behind him to shake him off that 50/50. Note that (as a Link secondary), the point of me throwing the boomerang IS to get you to shield or jump. That IS my goal. So be sure to mix it up!

You don't need to time your roll. Just buffer it by holding shield and the c-stick in the direction you want to go. You will roll at the first possible opportunity the game allows (when hit lag ends).

Utilt and uair from M2 are SO good that there really isn't a right way to DI. Esp w/ how fat Wario is. Your best bet is to catch them off guard and mix it up. If it were me though, I would definitely try to get behind M2 just so that he can't use the same move over and over again. When someone hits you with the same move repeatedly, it not only lowers your morale, but it makes them think you're easy. Force your opponent to think so that they can make mistakes. Start DI-ing behind M2 more. He may be able to start linking bairs now, but that should be an easier move to get around than uair. It's like taking the lesser of two evils. Getting hit is bad, but being above M2 is worse.

 

[DirtyRoach]

I signed up just for advice on this.

My only real practice partner (and generally my biggest rival) is a Samus player, but I have a loooot of trouble dealing with missiles. Crawling under them works for a small amount of time, but I really need help on what to do here.

 

[Turazrok]

Anyone got ivysaur tips?

 

[DirtyRoach]

Anyone got ivysaur tips?

We only have one ivysaur player here so I can't speak much for the matchup, but our nair beats his, though his spacing game is much, much better. Unfortunately, ivysaur wants people above her, while some of our best approaches are from above (dair, nair, etc.) so the only really approaches are DACUS and a run cancelled down tilt. But if you space a nair out correctly and pop ivysaur up, her weight is absolutely perfect for fair -> djump -> dair off the stage, or uair sourspotted juggles around mid percents, or an easy kill higher. As long as you don't get seed bomb juggled (and be careful DI'ing to the corner; solarbeam...) the spacing game is all you have to worry about. Fair and Bair beat us pretty dang hard. Shoulder bash, I've found, feels pretty worthless unless ivysaur is nairing and you catch her on the ground, since nothing she can do will be fast enough to stop you (unless neutB pushes SB away, I've never tested it) Out spacing her is hard as hell, but once you do it you're rewarded heavily.

 

[Cuban Pete]

Guys. I need some matchup help. How do I play against Meta Knight and Sonic? I can't deal with the speed from both and the shield pressure from Sanic.

 

[DirtyRoach]

Guys. I need some matchup help. How do I play against Meta Knight and Sonic? I can't deal with the speed from both and the shield pressure from Sanic.

Sonic I have nothing on, we have no sonic players around here. Though with MK, dthrow to SB works pretty well, weak fthrow combos to nair at just about every percent (even kills later when strong fthrow wouldn't do it) though the spacing game really isn't fun against MK no matter who you play. That's about all I got, besides uthrow to fart working excellent for early kills.

 

[Frost | Odds]

The best part about the M2 matchup is getting Clawed out of combos that work on everyone else in the cast. 0RLY's advice on the MU is excellent, though.

 

[0RLY]

Though with MK, dthrow to SB works pretty well

Dthrow to SB does not work if MK DIs down and techs. All percentages. It doesn't even work if dthrow puts MK offstage.

My only real practice partner (and generally my biggest rival) is a Samus player, but I have a loooot of trouble dealing with missiles. Crawling under them works for a small amount of time, but I really need help on what to do here.

Nair plows through missiles and still hits Samus because it hits twice. If missile cancelled, you're not going to want to hit Samus, though. The second hit of nair will lose to missiles from the side, but not if you land on them. Against platform missile cancels, you want to jump over the low super missile and nair through the high homing missile. Against ledgehop missiles, jumping over is fairly easy. Stay at a distance where you're not in her ledge hop fair range. If you see her airdodge from the ledge towards you, get ready to shield the incoming zair and punish. I like air SB oos, but if she's close enough you can start a fair combo into waft. If she's being persistent on the edge, threaten a dair right above the ledge so that you can nail her arm as she shoots. You're going to want to test the waters first, by jumping close and drifting back to see the reaction. Samus can ledgedash into upB fairly quickly.

When Samus attempts to use bombs to recover, nair, bair, or SB the crap out of her. You will win every time. This alone wins me almost every game. Avoid ground SB, she can just nair/grab you out of that.

The best part about the M2 matchup is getting Clawed out of combos that work on everyone else in the cast. 0RLY's advice on the MU is excellent, though.

Yeah, you can't go in too deep vs. M2. Same way you'd play against Zelda or Luigi. Don't over commit. By extension, there's no such thing as 'combos that work on everyone else in the cast' as Wario. You have to play very differently against every weight class. Which makes Wario fun and flexible. Keeps my brain working so I'm never on autopilot.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Against every other floaty*

 

[DirtyRoach]

Dthrow to SB does not work if MK DIs down and techs. All percentages. It doesn't even work if dthrow puts MK offstage.

I'm gonna suppose the MK player I've practiced with doesn't know/hasn't tried to DI down and tech, since it's always worked for me. Good to know so I can stop doing that.

 

[sneakytako]

How do you guys feel about the falco MU? I feel like wario camps platforms really well, and might win this MU.

 

[Angry Squirrel]

I'm gonna suppose the MK player I've practiced with doesn't know/hasn't tried to DI down and tech, since it's always worked for me. Good to know so I can stop doing that.

In general Wario is just good at punishing opponents who miss a tech. Seems that's how I won my tournament match against my friend's Shiek, and we normally trade blow for blow and are usually dead even. I was just on top of my game and there whenever he missed a tech.

So, it's been forever since I was in the comp smash scene. How are dittos supposed to go, just whoever is the better player of the character? I had to play a ditto in a local tournament with Wario and let me say, it felt so dang weird to be shown just what I'm exposing everyone to with side-b et al. (He won on I think Smashville, I CPd' WW, won, then won the 3rd round on WW again, but him as Gannon.)

 

[ECTO]

Started maining Wario lately, my biggest issue is basically the things that we're haunting me in Melee; Marth and Spacies.

Wario is somewhat fast, but I have trouble getting some really good punishes on Marth. It seems that I don't have great options when I do manage to bait out one of his moves. Same for Roy really, but Roy seems a bit more manageable. I do love using the Bite on Marth, but once he catches on, he's untouchable again. Reaaaally hard matchup. But I think you guys said enough already. Has anyone made a breakthrough on Marth?

As for Fox/Falco? Ugh, same **** as Melee, they're shines makes them way too safe. Plus, Fox can just choose to camp you out. Nairs are grabs are your only options really.

 

[0RLY]

Welcome to smashboards!

Now firstly, I have no context as to what you consider a "good punish". My go-to is, say after marth misses an fsmash is: late fair to grab to dthrow. From there it depends on how they DI. From a missed tech, you can dacus (most reward) or dtilt (least reward) fairly reliably. Off of bad DI, you may even be able to land another aerial. Otherwise, you'll just have to tech chase. At higher percents, dthrow to SB is guaranteed, which is the best possible punish.
If you manage to shield a fair, you can fh fair OoS to start a fair/bite chain. The hardest part about dealing with Marth is his grab. Your best bet is of course a spot dodge, but because Marth has such a huge grab range, you may not be close enough to punish. In my experience, after missed grabs my opponents tend to spot dodge. So what I like to do is run up to them and use grounded bite. From there I can fair, fart, or SB. Marth is a very difficult matchup.

For space wildlife: http://smashboards.com/threads/warios-matchups-free-discussion.332605/page-4#post-16497000

 

[ECTO]

Thanks for the welcome.

As for ''good punish'' I was mostly talking about any punish really. It seems that if the Marth spaces really well, it is nearly impossible to get in before his lag is done or get in a shield grab. But I am working on Dedede too, I might just stick to the penguin for swordies.

Overall, I really need to get my DACUS consistent, my Brawl tech isn't up to par. Heck, my tech isn't up to par at all right now. Still somewhat new to PM, not super used to everything yet. Years of Melee Peach float canceling and Samus has ruined my L-Cancelling. Also, I do have trouble against Charizard, his down-throw tech chases are rough for me, but honestly I think I'm just not used to the matchup yet. I'm a slow learner in match-ups. Squirtle too, but I think I just need to figure him out for myself.

 

[Megapants]

How do you guys feel about Lucario? I have a hard time understanding how to space against this dog with pretty much all characters but if I could get an idea on how Wario fares against him I might be able to grasp this stupid character a bit.

I mostly have trouble with the grounded spacing. I can't land on top of him with aerials or bites because of how fast he is on the ground and how far and fast he rolls. On that note, this guy's roll is really good and I feel like an idiot chasing after him with pretty much all of my characters. I get dash attacked and crossed up by down B > dash attack like constantly and it feels like there's no chances for me to punish because of links and rolls and speed. I just don't know where I'm supposed to be in neutral here.

I've been told that spot dodging Lucario's approach is the most effective way to open up opportunities to punish. Are there any Wario specific tools that can help me figure out the ground game vs Lucario?

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

After reading through the thread, I caught myself thinking: "Jeez, wario isn't very good is he? I mean, he has so few advantages on many characters... I mean, he has some good ones and some really bad ones, but a lot are just neutral." and then I remembered that's the flipping aim of PM's dev team. Whoopsiedoodles.


I'm curious about the ivy and 'zard matchups. I have neither to play against on a regular basis, so they seem rather odd to me. Ivy could be either neutral or terrible. Wario isn't terribly easy to gimp, and his weaving could make Ivy's spacing job harder. And, unlike Martha, Ivy's fair and bair are significantly laggier, so it may be possible to get in on her. But Ivy's also floaty.... so I have no idea.

Zard looks like combo chow if you can get in on him, but unlike Ivy, I've never wario'd a zard. So I haven't the faintest how that'd play out.

 

[0RLY]

As for ''good punish'' I was mostly talking about any punish really. It seems that if the Marth spaces really well, it is nearly impossible to get in before his lag is done or get in a shield grab. But I am working on Dedede too, I might just stick to the penguin for swordies.

Overall, I really need to get my DACUS consistent, my Brawl tech isn't up to par. Heck, my tech isn't up to par at all right now. Still somewhat new to PM, not super used to everything yet. Years of Melee Peach float canceling and Samus has ruined my L-Cancelling. Also, I do have trouble against Charizard, his down-throw tech chases are rough for me, but honestly I think I'm just not used to the matchup yet. I'm a slow learner in match-ups. Squirtle too, but I think I just need to figure him out for myself.

What moves is this Marth using in neutral? My local marth players almost exclusively looks for grabs and fairs.

Don't tech roll from zard. Mix up between get up in place, or no tech. You want to force him to use the 50/50 of when to jab, which puts more work on him. Wario has a slow tech roll so it's pretty free for zard. The goal is to bait zard by staying outside of his jab/ftilt range, and punishing any attack that comes afterwards. Zard is great at stuffing approaches, so it's best to be on the defense here. Keep an eye out for flamethrower, as that's what gains zard stage control against defensive play.

Vs. squirt. your SB will beat everything he has in neutral except water gun and bubble. Make sure that you only SB in reaction to something, not in neutral. quirtle also slides stupid far if you hit his shield (not power shield) so that keeps you fairly safe even on whiff. If you corner the guy, you've pretty much won. So don't let him past you. Don't edgeguard against squirt onstage. Just take the ledge and refresh your invincibility so that Squirt must recover over you. A sweetspot uair will end that lightweight's stock most efficiently.

vs. Ivy. This is like one of Wario's hardest matchups, up there with Marth. The disjoints are super hard to play around, and Ivy is much more mobile in the air than Marth. You can't really camp and you can't really full aggro. Razor leaf is slow enough that you can usually jump over and get a bite out of it. However, Wario has like no answer to well spaced bair and you're easy combo food. Wario also has one of the easier recoveries for Ivy to meteor. At the very least, I know how to gimp an Ivy. You have to dropzone fastfall a nair to hit the Ivy before the tether comes out. Ivy swings forward a lot once the tether hits the ledge, so you want to aim in front of the Ivy.

 

[LOE1]

Ok, i play 2 Ivy's very often. I guess im not too good at explaining, but here's what i think. She can combo you, like, to death sometimes from 0. It's stupid annoying. I like to pressure once i see her misspace a bair. I just space around her in the air, and once she misses an aerial, thats when i go in. I find ivy pretty easy to combo. It's an annoying ass mu, but you have to play super campy (which i excel at ). Just wait for the right moment. Here's a vid of me vs a decent ivy in my state. This was a while ago, and ive gotten better since though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5t2ZQbQiSs

Also i dont play how most wario's play, and i might get hate because of it XD. But it works for me, soooooo

 

[CyberZixx]

So I just got to play seriously for the first time in a long while. How does one deal around character that can easily anti air and outrange him? I was fighting DK and buddy, it was a struggle.

 

[A6stringthing (A6ST)]

So I just got to play seriously for the first time in a long while. How does one deal around character that can easily anti air and outrange him? I was fighting DK and buddy, it was a struggle.

I played a DK on Wifi, I had to be extremely patient, It's a tough match up. DK is massive, and has just as much stage control as Wario. Mind your spacing and don't get grabbed! You can gimp his recovery with your d-air once he offstage, bite can also help you regain stage control! I can't tell you how to properly approach him though, I'm still learning the match up myself.

 

[ECTO]

I don't have a lot of experience, but anyone who outranges you is super annoying. This matchup basically becomes a war of attritions with back-airs coming from both sides. Coming from the air too much is bad idea. Try to get him when he jumps, DACUS and SHFFL Nairs and U-Airs. He's somewhat easy to bite because he's so big, it's just too bad one of the only options to bite is an aerial one.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Remember also that you can cc his jab string. Might help a little in the matchup.

 

[ConeZ]

So I just got to play seriously for the first time in a long while. How does one deal around character that can easily anti air and outrange him? I was fighting DK and buddy, it was a struggle.

Well, I have a friend who is a veeeery good DK, and while I do not always have the best success against him, you basically have to bait and punish him, as DK's speed and his moves are deceptively quick, but a few are very punishable, so you have to take advantage when he uses those moves.

The biggest thing Wario has in this matchup is it is VERY easy to kill DK off-stage, and once your combo starts, racking up % is pretty easy.

Edit: ALSO, I personally like platforms, so you can maybe hit him onto one then get a bit off of his wake up, then combo from there as well, though I like doing that in most matchups xD

 

[LOE1]

Any advice on the diddy match up? I guess i dont know everything diddy can do yet in pm, so i dont know how to counteract what he does, especially when he pulls banana's. But yea, any advice would be appreciated

 

[CyberZixx]

How does one edgeguard Ike?