Wario's Matchups - Free discussion!

[0RLY]

Diddy has the godliest neutral game in PM. In order to take that away from him, you must play on the absolute smallest stage with platforms. YS, WW, and FoD are your best bets. However, these 3 stages are often banned. That leaves you with GHZ and Yoshi's Island. It sucks because YI has the platform that makes reaching bananas harder, but GHZ has the stage size you want. Eat diddy's bananas when given the chance. I also think you can eat his popgun shots. (Makes me wish Wario healed or something for having to go through the laggy animation, but whatever). The object is to stay outside of Diddy's shffl fair range but within his max dash attack length or max SB length. At this range, Diddy won't feel safe getting out bananas. If he does try to fh naner toss, you should be able to catch him with your SB+jump assuming you were able to keep that spacing from before. You can also punish grounded naner toss with a dacus. His glide tosses are extremely safe, so the best thing you can do is mix up how you react to it. Shield, roll, jump, bite, or fair it to remove the hitbox on it. I particularly like the last choice.

If diddy ever dash attacks you off the stage, DI down and attempt to fastfall. You absolutely want to avoid getting hit by the hitbox that launches you into Diddy's fair/dair/up-b. When you recover, instead of going straight up, try to go at an angle. His dropzone bair or SB can ruin your day if you don't. Remember to tech, Diddy has one of the fastest dairs in the game, and he may even follow up with up-b spike if he misses.

Dacus to uairs works against him. Setups include fthrow, bite, or nair. When edgeguarding, use the waft in place of when you would aim for sweetspot nair (it's not so great as a recovery in this MU. Diddy will often try to recover at an angle, mixing aiming for the ledge and at you on stage. If you take the ledge, you can cover both options fairly reliably with lh nair/bair/waft. Diddy may try to start up-b from higher up to get around this, and you can then beat him with SB. Of course, the straight-up recoveries should be daired. This is why GHZ and YI works well is because the sides of the stage are flat. Diddy won't be able to ride the wall, like on FD.

vs. Ike
Refresh your ledge invincibility with lh SB cancels and roll as he throws his sword up (up-b). If he starts his up-b too high to beat it with a roll (as in he can land on the stage), allow the sword to go over your head then immediately drop sweet nair. If it's side-b, watch to see if he's aiming at you or the wall when he releases. If it's at you, fastfall. He will swing to stall in the air a bit in order to grab the ledge. Double jump nair/waft into him during the swing. If he's aiming at the wall, drop off sour nair as he wall jumps. This kills the Ike. If he aims high, like towards a platform, ledge jump (you'll likely be behind him) and aim for a bite. Ike players will always shield after landing from air-QD. Then throw him back off stage and kill him for real.

If you can't get onto the ledge, you pretty much have to let him back on stage.

 

[CyberZixx]

This gives me an idea of what to look out for so I won't need to give Ike some much respect.Thanks.

 

[Dos_Equis]

How good do you guys think the Wario Squirtle matchup is? I have a hard time vs. Squirtle as Mr. G&W, and I like Wario. Figure his side-b would at least clank with Squirtle's?

 

[SixSaw]

Yes SideB beats Squirtle's but just throwing out sideBs willy nilly is not a viable strategy with how many potent tools squirtle has to stuff sideB and punish you hard (namely bubble). Stuffing things with nair is going to be your go-to in that MU.

 

[SixSaw]

How does one edgeguard Ike?

Step number one is not picking a stage with walls.

The next thing you need to know is that Ike's last flip during aether before he grabs the ledge has no active hitboxes. You can get him with anything from dtilt to a well timed sideB during this window. Practice doing that on a CPU or a friend until you're familiar with the timing and you will have a much easier time.

 

[0RLY]

I prefer giving Ike the wall to wall jump as I have an easier time stuffing his side-b and wall jump than his up-b.

vs. Squirtle
Crouch everything. The only thing you need to shield is bubble. Dtilt the ground approaches, Nair through his air approaches, and SB his withdraw. Let him come to you & play reactively. Squirtle can surprise counter attack your approaches with his deceptive movement.

 

[CyberZixx]

ICs seem like yet another abysmal MU for Wario imo.

Fast, disjointed hammer hitboxes with high active frames make it a real challenge for Wario to get in, even before you factor in desyncs, icebergs and blizzards controlling space, etc. You basically lose your bite and grab options while nana is alive since she, or popo if, god forbid, you get the wrong one, will just hit you out of them (Side-B is worthless as well since 9 times out of 10 you will only hit one of them and be left a sitting duck for the other). This presents a problem since Wario hasn't got much else to reliably separate them. It goes without saying that the grab punishes with both climbers are brutal, but sopo also has chaingrabs that would make Mario jealous. Meanwhile their light weight and floatiness make Wario's follow-up options pretty limited.

Thankfully there are only like 2 people who play ICs in PM, but if you happen you play one of them, I'd recommend choosing a different character.

This is from March, but I got some ICs experience now and agree with this. So little Wario can actually do to them. Difficult to separate them and bite/grab never feel safe because you could get nana and badly punished by popo. Even grabing popo yeilds little reward from my experience as nana will get ya. Not a fun match up.

 

[Strong Badam]

If you grab, bthrow. It knocks the other away and separates them well IMO.

 

[ConeZ]

Any advice on the diddy match up? I guess i dont know everything diddy can do yet in pm, so i dont know how to counteract what he does, especially when he pulls banana's. But yea, any advice would be appreciated

I have a friend that is a pretty good Diddy, and he beats me pretty much every time, but because of my experience with the matchup, I can tell you a few things.
1) His side B beats our side b because of the slight disjoint he has in front of it, but I believe the shoulder will go through if it is max distance. so edge-guarding him with that horizontally is a bit of a wasted effort.
2) The Dair is good for trading/killing when he is trying to recover with up B. If you suspect that he won't sweetspot, and he is trying to recover with his up B at an angle, the Waft is a good edge-guarding option as well.
3) Crouch cancelling his dash attack is pretty useless. Just stick with shielding/spacing/dodging?
4) As for the bananas, you can wave dash into them to pick them up, dodge or use Z to catch them, AGT, etc, or you can even eat them with the neutral B to get rid of them if you don't want them there, which is also a double edged sword.
If Diddy positions behind a banana, you can't hit him with the chomp because you will eat the banana.
Also, I believe there is a window of time where you can tech the trip, so it doesn't hurt so bad.

As for some other information about Diddy, do everything you can to avoid the Banana's and avoid his grabs. Diddy has really good zone control, and some good combos and grabs. So really just focus on the neutral game. If you can work around his zoning, weaving around and occasionally using his projectiles against him, the matchup isn't that bad.
I do recommend watching videos on Diddy if you want some more specific info.

 

[ConeZ]

Alright, so the group of people I play with is fairly decent in size, and I have a few characters I need to figure out how to deal with.
They are: DK, Dedede, Roy, ZSS, Lucas, and Ness.
I also have trouble with Diddy and Zelda, but I feel like it is most player-skill based because I feel like I know how to deal with the things they do, it just a few inconsistencies in execution that stop me from getting through.

I feel like a lot of the issues I have with the characters I do are because I don't know how to work against their disjoints consistently, so could anyone advice me the best way to work with Wario's limited spacing options? O:
Also Dedede's grab game is ridiculous. :x
AND how do I deal with Ness dash attack/forward air, and his zoning? I felt like I was getting the hang of the matchup, then my friend suddenly started implementing those moves for spacing, and it made the matchup much harder again for me.

 

[_OraNoS_]

What are our best matchups?

Or at least, what were pre-3.5?

 

[Player-3]

wat do vs falcon on big stages where he can just run away and space nairs forever

 

[DMG]

Nair that ******* back!

(I dunno. I would CC into whatever punish works a lot, and then use your own Nair against his options that work against CC like trying to grab or stomping)

 

[Strong Badam]

I spam AC bair (intelligently) against characters that generally don't commit in neutral at all, people tend to run into them and it will eventually cause a knockdown -> tech-chase.

 

[Player-3]

I spam AC bair (intelligently) against characters that generally don't commit in neutral at all, people tend to run into them and it will eventually cause a knockdown -> tech-chase.

yeah thats my general consensus on it from playing it recently it just feels terrible to never be able to catch him if he doesn't want to be caught (i played zss before she got changed into captain falcon lite in 3.5 so im not used to being this slow lol)

 

[Psyant]

Have you wonderful gentlemen got any opinions on the Wario/Pika MU? Played it a fair bit recently and I've been wondering what it looks like from the other side.

P.S. Your Side B is terrifying.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Indeed side b is a very scary move, even still in 3.5.

I've fought exactly 2 pikas in my entire 2 or 3 years playing project m competitively, and one of them barely counted because it was esam in doubles....so yeah got nothing on that matchup lol. I had fun the one time I did get to play it, but it was 2.6 so it barely applies at this point.

 

[Strong Badam]

Have you wonderful gentlemen got any opinions on the Wario/Pika MU? Played it a fair bit recently and I've been wondering what it looks like from the other side.

P.S. Your Side B is terrifying.

Pri eveny? Pika edgegaurds well & KOs vertically, things that generally don't mix with Wario's kit, but Wario does well in neutral and Pika's combo weight is really good for his moveset. Haven't played it since 2.6 really, but that's how I feel.

 

[0RLY]

You know. For all the matchup experience I have... Pikachu doesn't ring any bells. The world needs more Pikachu.

 

[Crome]

Opinions on v Lucas?

 

[Agi]

Scary. He's a great weight for regrab mixups with bite/UThrow and guaranteed things like Jab -> waft, but he controls the flow of the match with PK Freeze and loves being up close for his various aerial strings, which is where we want to be. We've got a tough time recovering from a BAir, too. At least he's mercifully light. Strongly in his favor, I'd say, but not insurmountably.

Right now I'm working on the Zelda matchup... my usual sparring partner's really figuring out her bread and butter stuff, like endlessly USmashing when I'm at 0% and finishing off with an NAir/FAir depending on my DI. It feels like I -should- be able to get out somehow, but I just can't figure out what I'm supposed to do. don't get hit Puts me on tilt more often than it should, screwing with my spacing. Zelda can do a lot with a single hit confirm, and they linger so long.

 

[Mookiefish]

Charizard. I just got back from a tournament in TN and to be honest it was quite stacked, but that's not the point. There was a Charizard main who could not get past. He kept walling me out with fair or ftilt or something. Whatever the claw move is. Then every time I thought I had a hit he would hit me with a nair and just combo me off stage. How do I deal with the Zard?

 

[ECTO]

I had a bit of trouble against Charizard too. Basically you need to let him approach and not the other way around. Make him commit to an approach. Keep on the defensive, he has a lot of range his moves to stop your approaches. Also, try to bite him as much as possible, bite is your best option against him.

 

[SixSaw]

What does Wario do in neutral vs Samus. My strat in this MU atm is to try for an early percent lead and then camp it to time. Getting in on her is just so freaking hard. I feel like I'm constantly jumping to get around missiles and then her superior range and disjoint on all her aerials completely zones me out

 

[supascoot]

What does Wario do in neutral vs Samus. My strat in this MU atm is to try for an early percent lead and then camp it to time. Getting in on her is just so freaking hard. I feel like I'm constantly jumping to get around missiles and then her superior range and disjoint on all her aerials completely zones me out

This is definitely a hard MU for Wario. Some things to do is make sure to ban PS2, Dreamland and Skyworld, if you get taken there you pretty much lose. One thing I've been hearing Samus mains cry about is the change to tethers, so make sure to get out there and get that barge/Nair. She is also very floaty, so things like Fsmash and Barge work on poorly DI'ed bite. Look out for other ways you can exploit her floatiness too. Aside from that, just cry while getting pelted with missiles play safe against her, and remember to eat missiles for that tasty explosion hitbox

 

[Strong Badam]

kirby MU is hard lol I go G&W now vs that character

*no insight at all* sorry guys

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah that match up is pretty hard surprisingly, at least it was in 3.02. I haven't actually played one in 3.5, but I'm assuming it's still in kirby's favor. I don't have the luxury of switching characters. I have a secondary, mario, but I'm still not comfortable enough to use him in tournaments, I can only use him in doubles and in if I play melee. I used to play ike but I've kinda neglected him, so I honestly can't play anyone else besides wario. It's a rough life I live.

 

[Strong Badam]

I decided a long time ago that I wouldn't fall victim to the 1-character problem. Playing one character can be good in many situations and may actually be optimal if you choose the absolute best character, but that's likely to not work through multiple updates in a balanced game. It also can skew your perspective on the game as a whole (this becomes REALLY obvious when you read character specialists write about the game at length) and make you look at situations through a sort of tunnel vision, stunting improvement. Since my ~3-4 characters approach different common problems in very different ways, I'm able to think of how my opponent would approach problems I present to them and counter them appropriately. I'm much less likely to be "stumped" in a situation because of it.

 

[supascoot]

So I might as well talk about the Pikachu MU as I'm the Wario Psyant is talking about up there. While Pikachu is a dying breed in PM, when you do run into one of the 5 Pika mains you might need some way of dealing with it.

Basically, this MU is annoying. Annoying for the pikachu as they are incredibly easy to kill and combo, but even more so for the wario due to the Thunder Jolts, Upsmash kills at 80%, unedgeguardable recovery and the fact that you are easy to edge guard yourself. I'd probably say this match up is around even, perhaps more towards Pika's favor, as both of them can beat each other up pretty good.

The main thing you're probably gonna need to deal with in this MU is wavebounced thunder jolt. You can jump over them, clank them, or shield them. Your option mostly depends on where pika is, as pika's followups from grab are pretty crazy. The arc that the jolt travels makes them hard to punish, so you are better off just trying to get some positional advantage on pika, rather than going for a bite or something. Pika has some pretty easy setups to Upsmash, which is even stronger than fox's. Fair into Upsmash, Low% UpDownthrow (something like that) into upsmash Actually all his throw combo into stuff, don't get grabed, Hitconfirm jolt into Upsmash and more I havn't bothered learning. Basically, this move will be the end of you 5/10.

Those other 5 times will be you getting edgeguarded with Fsmash. You're gonna have to make the tough choice here most of the time whether to try any mix up your recovery and still get edgeguarded, or to use waft. Pika isn't that great at edgeguarding if you recover from edgeheight, as the Fsmash usually is to hit you before you sweetspot the ledge. Waft is good at getting you to that height. Pika is hard to edgeguard, try to go for something that stays out a long time or to try and catch him after Skull Bash. Usually Dropdown edgehop nair is your best option. If pika does try to recover onto stage, you need to use a quick Fsmash or Waft to catch him.

That said, Pika is extremely lightweight, things like Barge and Waft will end him early (If they don't kill Pika is likely able to recover though). I was a massive scrub (I might still be a massive scrub) when I played most of my Wario games vrs Psyant, so I can't really comment on combo's that work on him. Because of the ease of killing, small stages are the best bet. Yoshi's is definitely the best stage for you because of the platforms. Psyant really wasn't kidding about the side b, Pika has very few ways of stopping it apart from Fsmash and jolt, and if it connects its most likely a kill. Embrace your inner netplay Wario and spam that shoulder

If you have any more questions on the MU, Please refer to the attached image

 

[SpaceGhostC2C]

After facing many Falcos/Foxes at my local tourney, I've made the conclusion that 'Uthrow -> Usmash a couple times' works very well. I was also able to do this to a Wolf and get a few more Usmashes in than I expected but i'm not sure if it was because of his DI, but i think a very quick DACUS maneuver could cover that.

 

[Agi]

Hoo boy, got my butt kicked by Chip's Marth at Black Wolf over the weekend. Simply could not establish stage control what with routinely underestimating the range of both the sword and Marth's grab. Which grabs through DTilt poke attempts, did not know that. Never really managed to get anything going, only landing desperation shoulder bash kills here and there. I know I need to play smarter and learn his range, but this feels like a major uphill battle.

 

[0RLY]

remember to eat missiles for that tasty explosion hitbox

I don't think Wario can eat missiles. Or her bombs for that matter. Only item-explosives.

@ SpaceGhostC2C If you're not in a position to chainthrow, usmash is good, though easier to DI. Usmash also scales faster, somehow. You can uthrow spacies to like 70 before going for fh sour uair to dj shoulder/waft. Usmash only to like 60 or less.

@ Psyant So like, Wario jumps and weaves around a lot. Pika can charge forward with a sh uair, and beat anything Wario can do from there. The important part is to have sufficient forward momentum and to hit with the front of the hitbox. That should be a good start.

 

[supascoot]

I don't think Wario can eat missiles. Or her bombs for that matter. Only item-explosives.

Well that blows. Added to the bucket list of reasons why wario mains need secondaries

 

[SpaceGhostC2C]

What would be the best compliment to Wario as a secondary?

 

[Matasd]

To me I feel like the main things that wario struggles with is projectile camping, as well as getting in on people who have a larger range than him. To adjust for that I have toon link to try and counter projectiles with projectiles, and then to adjust for range I have an ike, between those I think it pretty evenly covers a large portion of the cast in decent matchups.

 

[Anime]

Anyone have any insight on the Ike MU, specifically an Ike who uses a lot of quickdraw tricks well and often. I played this guy a couple times, and he just dominated me. At one point he was waiting in quick draw for me to try and approach him, and I was trying to figure out my options for to long, so he almost hit me with his OHKO in tourney, which would have been awful.

 

[ChiePet]

A friend of mine has dabbled in wario but is scared of giving it too much of a chance because he feels he has a lot of bad/unfavorable MU's, but both to motivate and train him to play against them; what ARE Wario's worst MUs in 3.5 so far? I'd assume MK didn't get any easier for one..

 

[supascoot]

A friend of mine has dabbled in wario but is scared of giving it too much of a chance because he feels he has a lot of bad/unfavorable MU's, but both to motivate and train him to play against them; what ARE Wario's worst MUs in 3.5 so far? I'd assume MK didn't get any easier for one..

Generally Wario has the most trouble with characters that can answer his aerial dominance. Marth and other disjointers beat out Wario's aerials, Samus and other strong projectile user can swat his out of the sky with their projectiles and a few other isolated cases of bad MU's because of certain mechanics they have. Even then, most of them aren't unwinable (except ****ing marf I swear every ****ing person in EU has a pocket marf they pull out even if they don't know how bad the MU is for Wario), generally around 60-40, and if they don't know the MU it can even be 50-50 for some chars.

Tell your friend to play characters he likes and not to worry about matchups or how good they are (unless they want to main olimar)

 

[0RLY]

@ Anime
Wario can handle Ike fairly well. Your nair will beat just about anything Ike can do out of qd except for perfectly spaced rar bair. All of his aerials are super easy to shield grab except for the occasional cross-up he may attempt out of qd. If he spaces a fair well against your shield, you can just jump out and bite him. He will attempt to shield it most of the time. If he charges qd in your dacus range, shoot one off. Ike can't do anything near the beginning of his qd, so the results will be either: you hit him, or you switch places on the stage. Ike is fairly easy to bait, as Wario is in the air all the time. It tempts him to utilt or aerial to hit you. Wario can weave away from all of these, though his shffl'd bair is hard to see coming. Down+away is how you should be combo-di-ing just about everything he does. From aerials to his throws. You want to stay in his uncharged qd range but out of his ftilt range. Your confirms will come out of your grabs, nairs, and dacus.

Wario does poorly against fast disjoints. MK, Marth, supposedly DK, Pit, Ivy, GnW, M2, possibly Roy, possibly Link. Projectiles are hard to deal with because Wario likes to bait openings, and projectiles prevent you from doing that. Mainly because so many of them have next to no endlag. Especially falco lasers and samus missles for their land cancels.

 

[0RLY]

oops sorry for the double post, anyways

@ SpaceGhostC2C Pick a secondary you like. There is no single counter pick to all of Wario's weaknesses, or any character for that matter.