Banning Dedede's infinite? FIRST POST UPDATED WITH VIDEO.

[Judge Judy]

Yes, i'm for one on this stupid infinite, a really bad DDD player could know nothing, except ONLY the infinite, and a really good Luigi/Mario player for example like...Boss8 for example, might accidnelty trip, and they get a grab, they win. Ban the infinite!

Except a good player like Boss8 is going to use Mario's flawless ledge control/camping to counter DDD's infinite, or just go for one of his many secondarys.

 

[JST]

If inifinites are banned, what will become of D3's smallstep chaingrab? (The one he can do on Bowser and DK)

 

[brinboy789]

If inifinites are banned, what will become of D3's smallstep chaingrab? (The one he can do on Bowser and DK)

thats not an infinite, it will end sooner or later...unless theres a wall

 

[JST]

thats not an infinite, it will end sooner or later...unless theres a wall

It's still pretty broken, though. =P If the infinites are banned, DK and Bowser are still screwed.

 

[XienZo]

thats not an infinite, it will end sooner or later...unless theres a wall

Still, it depends on how small the step is, if you can still get in 150+ damage before you reach the edge, the fact that you move forward is negligable.

 

[YagamiLight]

What I don't seem to get is why people pick, with full knowledge of the infinite, a character and then complain about an infinite on said character. It is a downside of the character, plain and simple. It is a risk you assume when picking Donkey Kong or whatever that King Dedede can infinite chain grab, and such it makes the match much harder.

Pikachu's CG on Fox is for all practical purposes as terrible as an infinite (Worse than the one D3 has on Mario/Luigi/Samus since they can mash out until a pummel is forced). Are we going to be banning that, even though it's not an infinite? What about Falco's 0-45% CG and then a spike or Up Smash for around 60%? And, on a milder scale, should we be allowing Zelda/Sheik or the Pokemon Trainer users to pause midmatch so they can have instant transformations?

The answer is a simple NO. Character flaws should be left in place, don't attempt to artificially remove them.

 

[PurpleAvenger]

I'm going to counterpick D3 with or without the infinite in competitions (even without it D3 is one of my hardest matchups with Luigi), and if theres a D3 using it in friendly then he's just a ****.

So I'm fairly impartial as to banning it. Either way I'm counterpicking lol.

 

[MorphedChaos]

If D3's infinite gets banned, then you'll have to ban IC's Death CG as well. And its not THAT hard to not get grabbed, heck, D3 can't do it to Mario, Luigi, and samus until they are at 60%+, unless you suck at getting out of a grab, then its your fault. DK, thats the risk of playing DK, and bowser isn't a true infinite, just a slow CG, very slow CG.

And if you don't wanna get grabbed? Stick to an air game, you can't get grabbed in the air.

 

[XienZo]

If D3's infinite gets banned, then you'll have to ban IC's Death CG as well. And its not THAT hard to not get grabbed, heck, D3 can't do it to Mario, Luigi, and samus until they are at 60%+, unless you suck at getting out of a grab, then its your fault. DK, thats the risk of playing DK, and bowser isn't a true infinite, just a slow CG, very slow CG.

And if you don't wanna get grabbed? Stick to an air game, you can't get grabbed in the air.

You can get grabbed in the air if you're just doing shorthopped aerials. DDD has a pretty big vertical grab-box.

 

[Hive]

plus you do have to land at some point lol ^^
and many ppl are quite vulnerable there

 

[rehab]

so i'll say this
i challange anyone (this is in luigi's' perspective, the hardest to infinite consistantly) to play my ddd, and not get grabbed a total of 4 times per stock. by the 4th grab, count that as an infinite to death.

if ur saying its avoidable, than ur saying my challange is acceptable. the idea isn't to run away for the entire match, the idea is for u to magically come up with a way to BEAT/KILL ddd without getting grabbed 4 times a stock.

im allowing anyone to do this with any character. Meanwhile, the real characters that get owned by this are even easier to grab than most of the ones that will be challenging this.

p.s. im for the ban

Somebody accept this challenge

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Yes, it should be banned. All you people who say it shouldnt are total idiots.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Eh, ban it then, I don't care really. I only use it on people who piss me off anyway.

 

[CO18]

Yes, it should be banned. All you people who say it shouldnt are total idiots.

I completely agree. I seriously think everyone who doesnt think this should be banned is dumb like literally lol

 

[Woozle]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203487

Something similar.

 

[HeroMystic]

Don't use the "You're an idiot" tactic for pro-banning. It won't work.

I wish (and hope for some miracle) that it'll be banned. But as said, it's only wishful thinking. "Don't get grabbed" is full of bull**** and it's legitimately wrong that characters have an advantage because of a major exploit that doesn't make sense in the first place, but it's a factor that we have to deal with and work around.

It's not an autoloss for the victims of this, so it's doable.

 

[Kaffei]

I agree. It's unfair. T-T

 

[bobson]

The real problem aren't the infinites. It's Meta Knight.

Don't get hit, hurr hurr hurr hurr

Fighting games have infinites.

If the Street Fighter community allows them, there's no reason we shouldn't.

Smash is not Street Fighter. Smash is different on a very fundamental level from other fighting games. This is tantamount to saying "Competitive poker players rely on luck for the drawing of cards, so therefore we should allow items in tournament play."



At this point, the only valid argument I can see for not banning the infinite is that it lends itself to the further banning of other "effective" tactics which should arguably not be banned. The infinite does nothing but harm the metagame, a decidedly bad thing.

 

[Woozle]

Why is difficulty of performing an infinite grounds for whether or not it should be allowed in a tournament setting?

I'm just wondering.

I mean, it must be really hard for some baseball players to get their hands on steroids: but it's still against the rules to use them. :=

 

[XienZo]

Why is difficulty of performing an infinite grounds for whether or not it should be allowed in a tournament setting?

I'm just wondering.

I mean, it must be really hard for some baseball players to get their hands on steroids: but it's still against the rules to use them. :=

grab, jab, down, grab, jab, down, repeat.

Nontheless its harder then it seems; I was messing around with DDD the other day, and not having used his chaingrabs before, I got owned by a CPU Mario on Bridge of Eldin.

Still, anyone who can use DDD at all won't mess up.

 

[The Real Inferno]

For the record I hate picking my main against Dedede. I have too high of a chance of getting screwed. I'm better off going Random against Meta Knight than going Random against Dedede. It makes me sad.

 

[SothE700k]

First off, I'm a Dedede main (When I decide I hate myself enough to play Brawl), so this isn't a complaint post.

Why is the standing infinite still allowed (I'm not talking infiniting someone against a wall, that's all on stage choices)?

It's stupidly broken, think about it. Out of 35 playable characters (Not counting Pokémon Trainer as 3), five of them are infinitable. That's 1/7th of the cast. One grab and 1/7th of the cast is repeat Dthrown to upwards of 300%, and instagibbed. If the Dedede player has a basic understanding of timing (All you really need for Brawl), 1/7th of Brawl characters are useless in this matchup. Also, as far as I know, Dedede can partially infinite other Dedede's, but I could be wrong.

"lol they shuld learn a new character". I know I'm going to hear this, and it's ********. I'll use a personal example. I don't play Brawl much, but a good friend of mine has an insane DK, he beasts. When we play, our games are usually very close, going ~60/40 my favor when I don't infinite. If I decide I want to be a massive tool and infinite him, I can usually win with < 30%. Someone with five times less experience than someone else beating the better player on their main because of an easily exploitable game mechanic. That's ****ing stupid. Why should they have to learn a new character because my character has something that completely ruins the matchup?

Wobbling is banned at most Melee tournaments because it ruined gameplay; one grab and IC's get a kill. Why should this be any different? Granted, the Wobbl worked on the entire cast, but most people pick a main and stick with them. Wouldn't you DK, Luigi, Samus, Mario and Bowser players like to have a real match against a Dedede player, instead of having to switch to some ******** counterpick?

Your thoughts.

+1 to BAN THE INFINITE.

Oh this is simple.
DDD's chaingrab is NOT a wobble, and there are such things as RULES about infinities in matches. Ever heard of them? Look them up if you haven't.

Oh, and if anyone constantly keep getting grabbed and hit by the CG, I lol at their face. They really need to re-evaluate their play if so.

 

[Woozle]

grab, jab, down, grab, jab, down, repeat.

Nontheless its harder then it seems; I was messing around with DDD the other day, and not having used his chaingrabs before, I got owned by a CPU Mario on Bridge of Eldin.

Still, anyone who can use DDD at all won't mess up.

Oh, no, I understand that DDD's is easy(ier) to do then most. I'm just wondering why "easy" infinites are worse than "hard" infinites.

I guess the point might be that characters (like the ICs) with tough infinites don't get them off that often, and so they aren't broken by them.

But would banning all infinites truly lower their playability? I wouldn't think so, since allowing them doesn't really raise it.

I don't know. Thinking aloud.

 

[Hive]

Why is difficulty of performing an infinite grounds for whether or not it should be allowed in a tournament setting?

I'm just wondering.

I mean, it must be really hard for some baseball players to get their hands on steroids: but it's still against the rules to use them. :=

difficulty is an issue, i think to a lot of people, if it affects top players because if an infinite is extremely difficult to pull off than it won't effect the metagame as much ^^ And also it concerns how outweighed the matchup is in terms of skill... ideally in a fighting game you want the matchup to at least somewhat reflect the skill of the player... or at least to have it be a reasonable factor.

edit: someone PLEASE take up Seibrik's challenge ^^

 

[XienZo]

Oh, no, I understand that DDD's is easy(ier) to do then most. I'm just wondering why "easy" infinites are worse than "hard" infinites.

I guess the point might be that characters (like the ICs) with tough infinites don't get them off that often, and so they aren't broken by them.

But would banning all infinites truly lower their playability? I wouldn't think so, since allowing them doesn't really raise it.

I don't know. Thinking aloud.

IC's grab range is pretty bad so "Don't get grabbed" is actually viable.

DDD's range is like 10 times bigger and faster and you're not dependent on a partner to be with you.

Its just MUCH less situational.

 

[CO18]

Oh this is simple.
DDD's chaingrab is NOT a wobble, and there are such things as RULES about infinities in matches. Ever heard of them? Look them up if you haven't.

Oh, and if anyone constantly keep getting grabbed and hit by the CG, I lol at their face. They really need to re-evaluate their play if so.

Yes, rules as not going past 300% since its stalling but by time youre at 300% youre dead.

They do not constantly need to keep getting grabbed to be grabbed 3 times the entire match and automatically lose.

If you believe you can beat an infiniting DDD then accept seibrik's challenge

I challenge anyone to do the same to me.

 

[Drecker]

It's not an autoloss for the victims of this, so it's doable.

It's an auto-stock, though.

Get grabbed at 5%, get killed.

This being Brawl, ******** comebacks are nearly impossible, and you can't gimp Dedede.

Argument invalidated.

Edit: ****, Seibrik AND CO18 are supporting me? All I need is M2K and Aero and we've got this in the bag son.

 

[SothE700k]

Yes, rules as not going past 300% since its stalling but by time youre at 300% youre dead.

They do not constantly need to keep getting grabbed to be grabbed 3 times the entire match and automatically lose.

If you believe you can beat an infiniting DDD then accept seibrik's challenge

I challenge anyone to do the same to me.

Well, this is where the usual "counter pick the stage properly" argument comes in, but then there's the argument "What if he loses then picks a stage with a wall?". I agree on that part. THAT should have a bit more restriction to.

Not exactly true. Its damaging, yes, but just because you had some damage inflicted on you doesn't mean you're already skyrocketing to your death. Its not a KO move.

Know what, if I ever meet seibrik (OFFLINE match mind you), then heck i'll do that! Not guaranteeing i'll win though XD

Same as above for you!

Get grabbed at 5%, get killed.

Unless we're talking about being stuck on a wall, THIS argument is invalid.

 

[bobson]

It's an auto-stock, though.

Get grabbed at 5%, get killed.

Only with DK. The others have to be hit in between throws to keep it going and can mash buttons to break out at lower percents.

 

[Woozle]

IC's grab range is pretty bad so "Don't get grabbed" is actually viable.

DDD's range is like 10 times bigger and faster and you're not dependent on a partner to be with you.

Its just MUCH less situational.

I understand that much.

But since it's so difficult to pull off, wouldn't banning all infinites keep DDD-like infinites from ruining the metagame and not really hinder characters such as the ICs?

Or is their playability truly hinging on this situational grab?

I guess I still don't understand why banning one instead of all is superior.

 

[Drecker]

Fine, fine.

Get grabbed at 40%, get killed.

It's still ********.

 

[Hive]

can't DDDs cg to standing infinite from 0%?

 

[CO18]

Well, this is where the usual "counter pick the stage properly" argument comes in, but then there's the argument "What if he loses then picks a stage with a wall?". I agree on that part. THAT should have a bit more restriction to.

Not exactly true. Its damaging, yes, but just because you had some damage inflicted on you doesn't mean you're already skyrocketing to your death. Its not a KO move.

Know what, if I ever meet seibrik (OFFLINE match mind you), then heck i'll do that! Not guaranteeing i'll win though XD

Same as above for you!



Unless we're talking about being stuck on a wall, THIS argument is invalid.

I think you completely fail to realise what were talking about. Its NOT a Wall infinite. Its a standing infinite. No matter what stage you pick Dedede will be able to do this if you can be infinites. Noones talking about wall infinites those are avoidable.

And it is INDEED a KO move. 1 grab = stock. You infinite them to 300% then back throw = stock.

And it doesnt matter what percent you grab luigi etc. You just have grab attack them so it doesnt diminish and its still the same old infinite.

 

[Drecker]

can't DDDs cg to standing infinite from 0%?

Short answer, yes.

Long answer, yes for damage, then just LOL INFINITE I'M SO GOOD.

 

[brinboy789]

can't DDDs cg to standing infinite from 0%?

yes, only with...5 (?) chars. i think you have to move a tiny bit forward with bowser... not sure though

 

[Drecker]

It's not necessary to move forward against a Bowser, sadly.

 

[IDK]

at tourneys ive been to, they only allow it for like 4 throws...

 

[Woozle]

I've actually hosted a few tournaments for the greater Annapolis area in MD.

Small gigs, 20-30 people. We banned infinites in general. people didn't seem to mind too much.

 

[CO18]

Yeah Atlantic North knows whats up. For the most part infinites are banned there.

 

[Drecker]

at tourneys ive been to, they only allow it for like 4 throws...

Is that for the infinite only, or Dedede's CG in general?

If it's infinite only, do they allow, say, full stage CG into four grab standing infinite?

Just wondering how things are run.