Character Competitive Impressions

[Yikarur]

I think Radical Larry lost any credibility in this thread by putting Ganondorf in mid tier because of warlock punch.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I think Radical Larry lost any credibility in this thread by putting Ganondorf in mid tier because of warlock punch.

Yeah, should've been because of utilt.

 

[Champ Gold]

Hey what are your thoughts on teams with low tier characters? Would they fair much better especially &

 

[Smog Frog]

buff: weight 72->108(/weight)
grab no longer whiffs vs short characters
tail hitboxes more accurately match animations

is he good now?

 

[meleebrawler]

buff: weight 72->108(/weight)
grab no longer whiffs vs short characters
tail hitboxes more accurately match animations

is he good now?

That would require changing his trophy description so no.

 

[Smog Frog]

**** trophy descriptions, the tips arent even accurate

 

[Ghostbone]

buff: weight 72->108(/weight)
grab no longer whiffs vs short characters
tail hitboxes more accurately match animations

is he good now?

No
Maybe moves up a tier among a sea of bad characters.

 

[LimitCrown]

For the most part, the tips are accurate. Also, any major changes to a character's stats like weight are unlikely to happen.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I can find these combo groups by myself but i was wondering if anybody has previously thought of this and has done a significant amount of work already. If you would like to help me you can post some info here and we can talk about it or converse with me privately.

I would check out the magic number system for Samus combos: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-complete-samus-combo-and-string-list.391853/
It's very accurate. likely beyond the level of accuracy you're interested in. You can probably group characters in batches of 5, those around 30 +/-2.5. So Mario despite being lighter combos similarly to Samus. Fox despite being lighter combos similarly to Wii Fit.
There is a ton of info in that thread, including how to adapt to the influence of rage and staleness.
It's very important for Samus because she has narrow range extremely damaging combos and landing them in practice is hard without a guide.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You think Roy stands an actual chance against Sheik, Rosie, Sonic, Fox, Pikachu, ZSS, Diddy and the likes? Because at this point of the metagame that's pretty much the minimum requirement to be considered 'viable' and I totally fail to see how Roy is supposed meet these requirements.

Marth does better in like...ALL these matches and I wouldn't call him viable lol. And Marth has actually won tournaments. Roy hasnt to my knowledge.

lol

 

[Kofu]

I think Radical Larry lost any credibility in this thread by putting Ganondorf in mid tier because of warlock punch.

To be fair the mid-attack super armor can catch people off guard and act as a hilarious punish to a laggy attack (though I'm not really sure which attack would he laggy enough for Warlock Punch to work on). However, given its risk and the fact that the super armor doesn't activate if the move was started in the air, I don't think I'd use it in a serious match outside of a shield break. It's not like Ganon doesn't hit hard without it.

 

[busken]

I would check out the magic number system for Samus combos: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-complete-samus-combo-and-string-list.391853/
It's very accurate. likely beyond the level of accuracy you're interested in. You can probably group characters in batches of 5, those around 30 +/-2.5. So Mario despite being lighter combos similarly to Samus. Fox despite being lighter combos similarly to Wii Fit.
There is a ton of info in that thread, including how to adapt to the influence of rage and staleness.
It's very important for Samus because she has narrow range extremely damaging combos and landing them in practice is hard without a guide.

Hmm, according to my research and playtesting I've found that villager, ness, wft, and samus all combo similarly. Mario is different because he's doesn't fall as fast, and as much more air speed so with DI and he can escape more easily. I think your list works more for samus because her d-throw seems to be a true combo at percents that no matter the DI they can escape even when those characters have completely different attributes.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ busken yeah you're referencing the size of the combo window on those characters, not the percentage of when to attempt a specific combo on them. Some characters have very small true combo windows, and like you say, Ness, Villager, Samus are part of that group. They're listed with a * in the magic number table incidentally. Some characters like Roy, D3 have massive combo windows, due to their falling physics. A given combo that may work only in tight 5% range on villager may work within a 20% range on Roy.
The numbers tell you when to attempt a specific combo, they don't tell you how hard it is to achieve (they can be very tricky timing).

 

[Sir Tundra]

Larry's New Tier List for 1.0.9.:

Top Tier (1-10):
High Tier (11-20):
Middle Tier (21-30):
Low Tier (31-40):
Very Low Tier (41-50):
Bottom Tier (51-55):

Previous Tier List:

Spoiler

Top:
High:
Middle:
Low:
Bottom:

Change Log:

Spoiler

People make good points with Mario; he's not that unbeatable so he's been placed lower. Sure, there are alot of great Mario players out there, but like someone said; not as much consistent results as other tops.
After some convincing, Toon Link was moved to Middle Tier.
Ike was moved higher upon request.
After some convincing, Greninja got moved up a tier and Robin moved down to the top of very low tier.

Reasonings for certain Character Placement Changes (CPC):

(From 14th to 11th) Now, since the patch, Diddy Kong has been quite...underwhelming to say the least, no longer really deserving of top tier status. However, he is not without his strengths, as he can still perform the "Hoo-Hah" like he did before (albeit not as well), but he also still has many D-Throw setups including his swift and effective B-Air and decently-powered F-Air. He's still quick and has a good projectile game, and still has the annoying bananas. And in the air, he's still a danger with great edge-guarding and an effective meteor to boot. On the ground, he's still a threat with many set ups to coincide with bananas and throws, and his B-Throw is no slouch when it comes to KO'ing. He's still viable, but no longer broken.

(From 16th to 14th) While not a big change from my initial thoughts, Link's definitely deserving of one of the top fifteen spots now. Grab range, D-Throw and U-Smash buffs are what make him better against his opponents, especially since Link can string a very high amount of hits just with his new D-Throw setups; up to the point where you can even string up to 90% damage if you have great spacing and great timing, from one D-Throw. As well, his B-Throw is now actually effective due to the grab range buff, and his U-Smash is very deadly if it actually connects to the opponent. Link's also got good mobility, a now-effective meteor, and a very annoying yet useful projectile game. Edge-guarding is also top notch for Link because he can still easily take care of the opponent with almost all of his attacks. And his D-Smash and Spin Attack are something of marvels...deadly marvels that can put a hurting on you if Link has the capability to get in on you; and don't fall for his F-Smash, it's one of the most powerful in the game by far. He's also got plenty of mind games to boot and yet what keeps him from being higher is some slow attacks and his above-average weight, but other than that, he is definitely a character worth investing into. He's got the tools and everything to be a very viable character and stand up against the dreaded top tier characters. And yet despite this, he barely shows results, but that's because of the low-tier stigma...

(From 30th to 27th) Now I will not be talking about his specs or something; I just need to get something out of the way so that you can acknowledge that he is probably the best Super Heavyweight class character within the game; it's actually landing a Warlock Punch. Despite having his low mobility, high weight and bad aerial mobility and sub-par recovery, this is actually a saving grace for Ganondorf, especially if the opponent is around 10% damage (the normal minimum for a Reverse to KO). Ganondorf's ability to land his Warlock Punch has often been ridiculed for how tough it is, when, it's actually not all that tough to land one; at least a normal one. Often now, I find myself using F-Throw or F-Tilt to get the opponent away for a setup to Warlock Punch, or maybe even a D-Throw > U-Air can set up to it. I often put up this high risk; high reward move when the opponent is either coming back from above the stage, the opponent just misses grabbing the ledge, the opponent tries countering (or in Ryu's case, Focus Attacking), or tries to do a laggy attack. Now apply everything else that's good about him to this and you get a decent character. But um, little note, Ryu's the likeliest character to get hit by Ganondorf's normal Warlock Punch because of Focus Attack's inability to break Super Armor attacks and Warlock Punch just so happening to have SA; plus, Ryu's Focus Attack, pretty damn slow end lag. King of Evil beats the Shoto in one thing; and if he blocks the Tatsumaki, Shoto gonna die.

(From 55th to 51st) While still pretty bad, I found that she has a great (annoying as hell) projectile game, and has some decent tools to rush up on opponents. Her grab game is also good and her F-Air is nothing to laugh at. She still lacks, however, KO ability from most of her attacks and has very high weight and a floaty nature...and while she's got good aerial mobility, that doesn't mean her recovery is good. But I still hate that quick Charge Shot charging speed.

Now these lists are being compared from early inspection to monthly inspection of the meta game and my thoughts on how the characters are going. Some have been pretty decent actually and some even have better placements than what they were because well, they seem to get better; but some characters got worse because they don't seem to be that decent or are underwhelming to say the least.

But which tier list do you like more? Which do you like less? And who do I owe an explanation on? Please tell me so.






I think Roy's not THAT viable, but he is still a decently viable character. If you think about it, he has great frame data and a great SH F-Air that can lead into double jump, and great power on his attacks and good range and speed in footsies. However, what he lacks is an edge-guarding game due to his horrible aerial inertia and the risk he puts for his attacks like D-Air and F-Air, and he also has a light weight but very bad falling speed. His recovery's also very predictable and not so good if he's from the bottom of the stage. That's the generality of Roy in a nutshell; but damn his F-Smash is too good if the sweetspot hits, and that's if. His attacks are punishable, and he really, REALLY hates tether grabs, esp. Link's.

Alright man so you have an ok tier list and all. There's some positions id switch like ,,,, and but's my opinion.

However there's one thing can't agree with at all and that's placement. Unless this isn't in order then I'm ok with it but it's not. Fox is just not top 2 let alone top 5. Sure fox has amazing tourney results, loads of kill setups,really fast, and has jab cancel locks(those are just a couple of examples btw). But fox has some pretty big weaknesses such as he's really light, he's easy to combo, he's easy to gimp due to his recovery, and he can't edgeguard as efficiently as most characters. Not to mention he's got bad mu's against ,,, and (listed worst to slightly bad). So yeah like I said your tier list is ok but being top 2 let alone top 5 is something i can't agree with.

edit: forget i said is a bad mu ight

 

[Asdioh]

Her ftilt does 6%, is still slow as sin, and takes over a second to complete. Whiffing it is basically asking to eat a charged smash to the face. I'd like to see the endlag reduced significantly or the damage doubled to 12%. The latter suggestion might sound like overkill, but if you're putting yourself on the line with such an awful move you deserve good reward. For some perspective, Falcon can noncommittally bair you for 14%, and if that's remotely acceptable I guarantee it's not too much.

Does it seriously only do 6 or so damage? That's incredibly worse than I thought. There is nothing overkill about buffing that, lol. Compare it to ZSS uptilt, which does 12% if both hits connect, while coming out on frame 3. It also can kill, and might be disjointed? Or Fox Uptilt, which is frame 3, does 10%, and combos. Most Ftilts do 6% or highre and are much faster.

Not to mention he's got bad mu's against ,,, and (listed worst to slightly bad). So yeah like I said your tier list is ok but being top 2 let alone top 5 is something i can't agree with.

Fox has a terrible matchup against Luigi? This is news to me?

 

[Nabbitnator]

ike is considered high tier now?

 

[busken]

ike is considered high tier now?

no.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Fox has a terrible matchup against Luigi? This is news to me?

Dude the fox vs luigi matchup is just bad for fox. Like really bad. And I basically already stated why it's a bad mu earlier in this thread.

Edit: yes i know you can shield his nair, and yes luigi has a bad disadvantage state. But still the whole fox vs luigi matchup is just one read and guess game for fox. Luigi in all honesty doesn't have to read fox at all in order to combo especially when considering fox the fact that fox is easy to combo. Fox has to literally outplay luigi just to win this matchup just to even win. Also fox can't even zone luigi meaning luigi can easily get in without even needing to use his fireballs

 

[SpottedCerberus]

(From 55th to 51st) While still pretty bad, I found that she has a great (annoying as hell) projectile game,

Errrm.....she has a great charge shot, if that's what you mean. Besides that, her missiles are utter garbage.

and has some decent tools to rush up on opponents.

This.......is news to me.

But I still hate that quick Charge Shot charging speed.

Man, she can't even it charge it in mid-air.

Now these lists are being compared from early inspection to monthly inspection of the meta game and my thoughts on how the characters are going. Some have been pretty decent actually and some even have better placements than what they were because well, they seem to get better; but some characters got worse because they don't seem to be that decent or are underwhelming to say the least.

I actually kind of agree with the placement, but I disagree with your reasoning.

buff: weight 72->108(/weight)
grab no longer whiffs vs short characters
tail hitboxes more accurately match animations

is he good now?

Stop. Patches won't change anyone's weight. They're not going to completely redesign a DLC character. It's not worth discussing.

 

[hypersonicJD]

What do you guys think about vs ? I think rigth now i'm just going to discuss match-ups. Because I don't even know how to properly gather information. I battled a Wario in For Glory and it was pretty easy to punish his bike recovery's back to the stage. And punishing Wario wasn't a problem.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

no.

Yes he is.

 

[Yikarur]

Ike is high tier for sure.

 

[Gibbs]

Yes he is.

Bare minimum for Ike being high tier would mean placing Ike on the tier list higher than all of the following: Megaman, ROB, Lucario, Kirby, Meta Knight. I can maybe see Ike post buff jumping enough to place higher than some of these characters, but definitely not all of them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Tier lists are fun. EVO will be a really strong data point; here's where I'm at with 1.0.8/1.0.9 pre-EVO:

Top (1-9):
High (10-22):
Mid ( 23-34):
Low (35-45):
Bottom (46-54):
Rock Bottom (55):

Notes:

-This assumes customs legal. If customs are banned, many characters drop but especially Rosalina, Palutena, Marth, Bowser Jr., Donkey Kong, Lucina, Ike, Wii Fit Trainer, Ganondorf, and Duck Hunt. I don't play the customs banned game though so other than "worse balance" I can't really supply a tier list for it.

-Patches played a VERY big role in where characters fell. Marth especially I think rockets up the tier list after the patches that helped him so much, but patches had a large impact on where most characters fell.

-My top tier is weird I know, but people really sleep on both Ness and Yoshi. They have as far as I can tell the best typical damage output of any characters, the best speed to power ratios in the cast, solid movement, and generally deep toolsets. They don't fit classic archetypes of top characters in smash games and aren't as popular in the meta as some others, but neither of those things really concern me at all.

-I'm VERY uncertain about Ryu's placement. He seems pretty bad since his anti-camp options seem not to exist which probably gives him way too many hard counters to deal with, but the upside on this character is massive too. I could be the whole tier list wrong about him, and we won't know for months most likely. For now, I'm assuming he's bad until he proves otherwise, and proving otherwise will mostly come down to showing himself to have a far superior neutral game to what he appears to have at first blush.

-In general I was very harsh on characters who I feel have a lot of bad match-ups. If I were looking at "general utility", Pac-Man, Little Mac, Duck Hunt, and Shulk would all be placed much higher, but I held match-up based downside (including stage match-ups Little Mac!) very strongly against characters since, honestly, there are too many good characters in this game to be very tolerant of poor MU spreads.

-I think the top two tiers are solid mains for competitive play, mid tier is fully viable but may be best served to work alongside secondaries or may just plain have to work discernible harder than the higher tiers, low tier is competitively usable but niche and thus only suitable for extremely dedicated players, and both bottom and rock bottom tiers are recommended against as I don't feel the downsides of these characters are sufficiently offset by upsides (though many of the bottom characters do have contexts in which they can perform well). I think this game is impressively well balanced, and when I put a character at like 30th, it's not because I think they're bad just that I think there are so many who are even better.

Like all tier lists, this is kinda just for fun, but it does reflect my current understanding of the balance of the game. I'll be at EVO and will be observing everything I see very carefully, and my list very well may change within the next week. I can probably explain what I'm thinking with most characters if asked.

 

[Spinosaurus]

​

What do you guys think about vs ? I think rigth now i'm just going to discuss match-ups. Because I don't even know how to properly gather information. I battled a Wario in For Glory and it was pretty easy to punish his bike recovery's back to the stage. And punishing Wario wasn't a problem.

Honestly sounds like you played a pretty bad Wario.

I'm pretty sure he wins this one handedly. All he needs to do is stall for waft.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think putting Ryu in bottom tier shows a very strong understanding of the character IMO. I could be wrong but he is at worst somewhere in the center IMO. The punish game is just way too strong. He's no top tier but I can't agree with that greatly exaggerated claim of bottom tier, I guess it's "first blush" so it kind of makes sense?

I mean no disrespect (the rest of your list seems astutely accurate outside of Doc who is probably in low/bottom from my 6-7 months experience, maybe middle-low with customs?) but it doesn't seem "right"

If we're talking poor MU spreads I think Mewtwo loses harder to everyone that matters than Ryu does. None of this game's mechanics work in his favor at all given his weight and height.

 

[Gamegenie222]

What do you guys think about vs ? I think rigth now i'm just going to discuss match-ups. Because I don't even know how to properly gather information. I battled a Wario in For Glory and it was pretty easy to punish his bike recovery's back to the stage. And punishing Wario wasn't a problem.

Wario's favor but the new nair helps in clipping him outta the air and RAR bair helps against bike.

​

Honestly sounds like you played a pretty bad Wario.

I'm pretty sure he wins this one handedly. All he needs to do is stall for waft.

This as well.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bare minimum for Ike being high tier would mean placing Ike on the tier list higher than all of the following: Megaman, ROB, Lucario, Kirby, Meta Knight. I can maybe see Ike post buff jumping enough to place higher than some of these characters, but definitely not all of them.

Several of those characters are high tier though: MegaMan, most likely MK and ROB. Ike doesn't have to be above them because there's no limit on how many characters can be in a tier.

@AA: With customs on in particular, I don't see how Roy is that high or the best FE character. So many characters gain so much with customs turned on while Roy gains nothing but worse MUs almost across the board. And without customs, Roy, Marth, and Ike are all very close to each other in the list. You could argue which order those 3 are in, but they are most likely all right next to each other, maybe one or two other characters between them at the most.

And as others have pointed out... Roy doesn't really have many, if any, MUs where he does better than Marth, but you could argue that's not the case the other way around. Because of his fall speed Roy gets juggled hard, and has an even worse disadvantage state than Marth, several moves where he has a bit less range, a number of moves where it looks like the hitbox should be active earlier but aren't (and thus lose out on range. I believe Bair is one of those moves IIRC where its an arcing slash but only the end bit really hits unlike Marth who hits while swinging?)

His Fsmash is amazing yes, but as a character as a whole? In a custom environment? I just don't see it.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Honest suggestion:

If you make a tier list and aren't sure where to put a character, leave the character off the tier list, or make an 'unranked' category to put them in so the viewer of your list knows you didn't forget, but simply couldn't place them.

If I ever felt the sudden, deep-rooted urge to make a tier list of my own, I'd almost certainly leave WFT, Pit/too, and Shulk off the list, because I've never practiced with either of them, nor fought competent ones. And while I could look up combo videos or tournament matches of hard-core players for a general idea, there's a major difference between theater and hands-on.

 

[busken]

Yes he is.

I consider high tier top 10. If he makes my top 15 barely.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't think putting Ryu in bottom tier shows a very strong understanding of the character IMO. I could be wrong but he is at worst somewhere in the center IMO. The punish game is just way too strong. He's no top tier but I can't agree with that greatly exaggerated claim of bottom tier, I guess it's "first blush" so it kind of makes sense?

I mean no disrespect (the rest of your list seems astutely accurate outside of Doc who is probably in low/bottom from my 6-7 months experience, maybe middle-low with customs?) but it doesn't seem "right"

If we're talking poor MU spreads I think Mewtwo loses harder to everyone that matters than Ryu does. None of this game's mechanics work in his favor at all given his weight and height.

I've never seen anyone do anything but lose horribly with Ryu once his opponent adjusted to what he can do, and by horribly I mean "it's like he didn't even get to play". His punish game is the single best in the game sure, but if his opponent's strategy is to jump a lot and run the clock as much as possible it seems really, really hard for Ryu to do anything. He doesn't seem like he can camp himself at all, and he seems bad at approaching a defensive opponent (poor mobility and awful reward off a grab). It's possible with careful play he can deal with it; I just haven't seen it yet. I actually don't think mid tier is plausible for Ryu because of that. Either in the long run he can deal with lame play and is high tier or in the long run he can't and in that case he's probably not too far from where I put him near the bottom. I actually could believe him being anywhere on the tier list other than mid; I think him being better than Sheik is more likely than him being mid. This level of uncertainty though is why Ryu in particular I felt warranted a specific note of how uncertain I am of his placement.

Doc is probably the weirdest character to place since he's the most inferior of the clones, but being a worse version of Mario is still a pretty great thing to be as the Mario moveset is inherently higher in value than the Pit or Marth movesets. I am assuming customs though, and he is placed near the bottom of mid on my list so I'm not too far off what you're saying?

I think Mewtwo is underrated. Size and weight aren't very important; speed to power ratio matters a lot more, and Mewtwo is solid on that front. Mewtwo also converts grabs to kills which is a very high value thing in this engine. I think Mewtwo is all around a bit too slow for his own good, but he can play a basic poke heavy game pretty well.

Several of those characters are high tier though: MegaMan, most likely MK and ROB. Ike doesn't have to be above them because there's no limit on how many characters can be in a tier.

@AA: With customs on in particular, I don't see how Roy is that high or the best FE character. So many characters gain so much with customs turned on while Roy gains nothing but worse MUs almost across the board. And without customs, Roy, Marth, and Ike are all very close to each other in the list. You could argue which order those 3 are in, but they are most likely all right next to each other, maybe one or two other characters between them at the most.

And as others have pointed out... Roy doesn't really have many, if any, MUs where he does better than Marth, but you could argue that's not the case the other way around. Because of his fall speed Roy gets juggled hard, and has an even worse disadvantage state than Marth, several moves where he has a bit less range, a number of moves where it looks like the hitbox should be active earlier but aren't (and thus lose out on range. I believe Bair is one of those moves IIRC where its an arcing slash but only the end bit really hits unlike Marth who hits while swinging?)

His Fsmash is amazing yes, but as a character as a whole? In a custom environment? I just don't see it.

I think you're overlooking Roy's strengths here. Roy has a f4 super armor up-B that kills early and an absolutely incredible jab (definitely the best FE jab, super good move in general). Flare Blade is just a stupid move; it's the single safest move in the game and nukes everywhere vaguely in front of Roy with hitboxes. It's the kind of tool every character who isn't Roy wishes they had, and it really works well with Roy's core spatial control game. Fsmash is just about the best reward you could ask for off a read, but I don't think it's really the core strength of the character (and in terms of general uses, I think Roy's great usmash is more important!). Marth has better rewards off a grab and a better set of aerials, but Roy definitely has the better ground game and can reverse a defensive position better because of it (even if he's worse off once he's actually popped into the air). Roy is just so high value since he controls space with huge disjoints and, if the opponent almost but doesn't quite get past that, he gets very rewarding sweetspot hits, and Roy does kill off reads better than any other character in credible contention for high tier which matters too. I think they're very competitive with each other, but based on what I've seen, Roy edges it out. It's very close though, and I wouldn't consider someone unreasonable for thinking Marth is the one who is one place higher.

I don't play without customs so I have to imagine a bit to think of how Marth plays when robbed of several of his most important tools, but within that imagination I don't quite see how Marth possibly competes with Roy in that arena. Almost every grounded normal on Roy is better, and the best aerial on both (nair) is really similar on both. The grab rewards that Crescent Slash brings are, to me, the single largest reason to pick Marth over Roy in the first place so, without that, why would you actually want to pick Marth? Then there's Ike who is just so slow and, without customs, is helpless off-stage too. Ike has some great upsides, but I just don't see him in Marth or Roy's league since his speed is low enough to be a major problem when it comes to certain MUs (this is very similar to the reason why Shulk isn't a top character). I think we have different visions of the balance here.

 

[Z1GMA]

If Ryu hits Ganon's WP SA Frames, Ryu can probably still Dash Cancel his FA and avoid the WP.
btw, WP isn't good enough to raise Ganon's competitive value. It has uses, but they're very rare.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Mewtwo is underrated. Size and weight aren't very important; speed to power ratio matters a lot more, and Mewtwo is solid on that front. Mewtwo also converts grabs to kills which is a very high value thing in this engine. I think Mewtwo is all around a bit too slow for his own good, but he can play a basic poke heavy game pretty well.

I think Mewtwo's frame data is only ok for his weight and size class, but I can't ignore how unbelievably hard the game's mechanics go against how he works. He has great kill throws all things considered (mostly U-Throw) but they are largely better and improved with rage and how it scales. Mewtwo consistently dies at low %s OUTSIDE of customs (Customs On is just horrible for him, lots more kill conversions with character that combo him horribly easily, like Mario.) and while he has a lot of really good kill moves, there's not a lot of direct setups and his survival ratio is so horrible that one mistake is largely punished and his survival ratio is terrible. Also not aiding this is the fact that he's ALSO floaty meaning he dies vertically even easier and a lot of customs that kill (and non-customs) go vertical in this game. He just seems way too unstable to use properly. He just strikes me as astutely bad. The game's mechanics just go too far against him, and the fact that he's lighter than a lot of other small characters with little hurtboxes is pretty hard to ignore for me. His frame data only strikes me as "ok", really.

I think Ryu has the potential to push past his boundary if people are willing to play him differently than most other characters which is the bare requirement for him. I guess it's fine that you're unsure of his placement but if that's the case I'd just avoid placing him, it's not a bad thing. He's radically different. I just don't think he gets camped super hard outside of a few specific MUs, and of those MUs, I think the only notable ones are probably Sheik, Sonic, Pikachu, and Mega Man. Ryu's probably one of the least intuitive characters to play unless you're willing to play a different game entirely, so if you watch someone lose really hard with him, it's partly the character but also just how damn weird he is compared to everyone else.

Everything else in the post is a fair response, I wager. Customs On is incredibly different than Default (I believe Ryu is uncontestably better in default metagame)

 

[Luco]

@ Amazing Ampharos Whilst I'm certainly uncomfortable with the idea that Ness could be considered 'top 3' right now (due to his MUs against Luigi, Sheik, Rosa and Sonic), the thing that I wonder about the most on your list is actually , where this is possibly the first time I've ever seen someone on this thread not put her in top. Her grab is a real weakness, it can really show especially at high level play (Nairo vs ZeRo at CEO for instance) but she's so powerful in many other areas. What do you think prevents her from being right up there with the other 9?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@ Amazing Ampharos Whilst I'm certainly uncomfortable with the idea that Ness could be considered 'top 3' right now (due to his MUs against Luigi, Sheik, Rosa and Sonic), the thing that I wonder about the most on your list is actually , where this is possibly the first time I've ever seen someone on this thread not put her in top. Her grab is a real weakness, it can really show especially at high level play (Nairo vs ZeRo at CEO for instance) but she's so powerful in many other areas. What do you think prevents her from being right up there with the other 9?

Lux is local to me and always reminds us all that ZSS is bad. Shaky is also local to me and has inspired more than a little faith in Ness on my part; if Rosa and Sonic really are serious problems for Ness, I sure wish everyone had told us how to collect our free wins against Shaky. Ness might not win every MU, but he definitely has the tools to deal with everything and, when he's going to win, can win so quickly and efficiently. Ness's insane grab rewards are also a kinda big thing in a game where grabbing is so good; I feel like every character in the game sometimes has that moment where they just can't finish their opponent's stock... other than Ness, and that's a really strong positive for Ness.

ZSS's grab really is a big deal, and her moves largely break between "absurdly safe" and "not safe at all". I feel like ZSS at the highest level often has to make high risk guesses moreso than top characters because of this (since you won't win if you just stick to the safe stuff), and that keeps her out of top. Being #12 on the tier list is still a very solid placement, and the high risk guess thing isn't really a problem if you are just right when you do it... but I do have to on some level hold it against her compared to the characters placed higher. Nairo is clearly a really elite player; I mostly consider it evidence of how well balanced the game is that he can go as far as he does with ZSS, and I don't expect his performance to drop because of ZSS at any point in the future.

 

[Kofu]

Does it seriously only do 6 or so damage? That's incredibly worse than I thought. There is nothing overkill about buffing that, lol. Compare it to ZSS uptilt, which does 12% if both hits connect, while coming out on frame 3. It also can kill, and might be disjointed? Or Fox Uptilt, which is frame 3, does 10%, and combos. Most Ftilts do 6% or highre and are much faster.

Palutena's FTilt is weird. The staff does 4% and the tip deals 6%, and the move can, in theory, hit multiple times. It's also big, disjointed, continues through clank (IIRC), and each hit does 1 extra damage to shields. However its base knockback is high enough that you're lucky to get 10% out of it (from a staff hit then tip hit).

 

[Teshie U]

Palutena Ftilt needs far less lag to do its job. Its a multi hit spacer, but its laggy enough that you can run into the early hits with your shield and roll behind her during the animation. Considering her moveset is slow to begin with, she won't have much of an answer to someone being behind her.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dude the fox vs luigi matchup is just bad for fox. Like really bad. And I basically already stated why it's a bad mu earlier in this thread.

Edit: yes i know you can shield his nair, and yes luigi has a bad disadvantage state. But still the whole fox vs luigi matchup is just one read and guess game for fox. Luigi in all honesty doesn't have to read fox at all in order to combo especially when considering fox the fact that fox is easy to combo. Fox has to literally outplay luigi just to win this matchup just to even win. Also fox can't even zone luigi meaning luigi can easily get in without even needing to use his fireballs

I don't think the matchup is that bad. As Fox you're basically running away from Luigi the whole game but it actually kinda works out. I think a lot of people are not quite aware yet of how powerful camping and running away can be in this game. Just a minor whiff or misspaced move against a camping opponent can get you punished quite badly. I think Luigi is gonna suffer from that quite a bit in the future and Fox can use it to his advantage in this matchup.

Luigi still wins it but it's more like a +1 imo.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh man, I'm probably going to regret this. Feel free to ignore this post if you don't care about tier lists.

Spoiler

"WHY ARE PIT AND DARK PIT TWO WHOLE TIERS APA-"

I'm going to go over some of the characters and placements that might raise some eyebrows from top to bottom

: His nerfs made him a lot more tame compared to many of the other characters above him. He's still really powerful though, his banana alone make him a huge threat so I don't think he has any risk of falling too much. Prior to the patch I probably would've put him behind Fox.

: I'm pretty sure a lot of people think he's too low, but considering Luigi's mobility issues and also that he seems to have quite a number of bad MUs spread across the characters. I think Luigi is a very powerful character but is one that can be abused pretty well by other characters, so I put him lower.

: I honestly can't see many problems with Wario. His Waft is ridiculously powerful, the bike is a great move, his air movement is amazing and so is his recovery... I think he has all the qualities of a high tier character. I do admit I lack a better understanding of the character though.

: The punish game is real. Focus Attack is a super scary attack that is going to be a pain for most characters that don't have many strong multi-hit moves. He's still new though so I don't have much to say about him, I do think he has the potential to wreck some real havoc though.

: MK is really powerful now with the patch. He has the kill setups, an amazing dash grab and dash attack, combos that deal quite a lot of damage and very versatile recovery. The only reason I put him in the bottom of high tier is that his range is a bit underwhelming (though almost everything is disjointed) and he's pretty light.

: Oh man bias alert. Honestly the only things that are holding Greninja back in this meta are Sheik and his standing grab. He has a ridiculous amount of combos and kill setups, some of the best mobility in the game, good damage output, excellent recovery, good range, a fast projectile with long range and a lot of traps. He lacks something like a frame 3 aerial to break out of combos and also has no good OoS option other than jab (which would be fixed with a standing grab), but I don't think any of that makes him go much lower than high-mid.

: Ike is scary as hell now. His damage output is crazy good and his range makes it even more intimidating. Kill power is crazy too. His mobility is average though and he doesn't have much in the way of dealing with juggles. His recovery is super expoitable too, but his power and weight makes it hard to feel safe against him because once he gets rolling he really wrecks you.

: Everything I've been hearing lately makes me feel like Roy is not the savior of the FE characters like people thought at first, especially with the buffs to Ike and Marth and I've seen many claims that Marth is better than him that honestly feel very valid. Again he's new so I haven't been able to see much of him, so I'm just going from what I've seen so far.

: The only reason he's not higher is his struggle to kill and his grab (which are a lot of why Link is above him). Pac-Man also requires setup which can be hard to do with the opponent on your face constantly. His CQC is not bad, but his grab really doesn't help it. I also think he can struggle to build up damage sometimes outside of the Galaxian and I guess the bell. Hydrant being able to be used against him doesn't help much either.

: I'm pretty convinced Zard is the best heavyweight now what with his very silly Up-Throw. He's still combo food though and Rock Smash can only do so much to help. His recovery is pretty good and Fly is a very potent kill move as well and Flare Blitz reads can be very powerful too. The fact that his grab range is so good only makes his Up-Throw even sillier too. His fast dash speed helps a lot too.

, : I don't think these two are as bad as I made them look in the list, but I made the C+ tier as more of a niche tier and I feel like Dark Pit kinda fits here. The only MU you'd really prefer Dark Pit over Pit is Rosalina and maybe Little Mac, the rest Pit usually fares better than Dark Pit even if it's just slightly which makes feel Dark Pit is pretty outclassed outside of niche uses. Lucina's case is similar but the gap between her and Marth is higher because, uh... I don't think there's any MU where she's better than Marth. I guess she's outclassed enough that she could be in bottom tier, I'm not exactly against it either way.

: She's funny in that her moves are either really good or really bad with pretty much no inbetween. Her gameplan feels very limited due to that, she basically will attack you with jab or Dash Attack while you're in the ground when she's not grabbing you then attacking you with her good aerials (except D-Air). Up-Smash is really cool too, but in general her gameplan is very linear and easy to figure out, and there's only so much you can do to mix it up.

I obviously don't claim to be 100% correct about any of this, but I figured that since there was a tier list galore going on I'd post mine. In any case I thought hearing some opinions on this would be good and if there's anyone you want to question the position in my list, feel free to ask.

Also my top tier is entirely blue except for , goddamn it Pikachu you ruin everything
[/quote]

 

[Vipermoon]

No
Maybe moves up a tier among a sea of bad characters.

You kidding? If M2 had a 108 he'd be high tier AT LEAST