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Character Competitive Impressions

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Yikarur

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I can't believe people are rating Palutena bottom five. She has probably the best bair in this game, (or at least one of the best), a good Mobility, a good Jab, a really good dash attack.
I think she is at least lower mid tier. She is not near bottom five.. but people are just looking at her customs "without them, she is crap" and disregard her. I think people will rate her higher, once people forget that customs exist.
 

Baby_Sneak

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I'm mostly a chill dude.
But rosa is having me ready to punch holes in walls and bricks.
What am I suppose to do against her as rob? Somebody help because I'm sooo ready to fight with this amount of anger.
 

TriTails

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better yet can we stop suggesting buffs and nerfs?!
CCI thread on patches:
- Someone complains about something that is top/high tier's.
- Someone else suggest a nerf.
- Someone else then go 'WE SHOULD BUFF THE LOW TIERS'.
- Repeat.

Example
Sheik's needles
- Decrease damage to negligible levels to accentuate only it's ability as a game pacing/neutral tool; would reduce her capabilities in attrition greatly but could still maintain the style-istic choices that have developed. Other long range zoners would be able to keep up with her in damage more reliably, would make them more aggressively tuned rather than passive but would still function in that role.
Tap B twice and she deals 1%.
Tap B when she is shining and she deals 7%.

How is that not negligible. Mario's Fireballs or Falco's lasers can do miles better than that.

Unless it hits at higher percents that is.

- Remove hitbox growth / make it static knockback. Negate/reduce the effectiveness of them at late percent in snowballing positional dominance including off stage, make counterplay/strategy to them more static for players to deal with on hit/etc (i.e. similar to Falco laser).
This is the only justifiable nerf. No matter how Sheik's needles are nerfed, as long as it has this trait (Do knockback at higher percents), it will still remain the jankiest projectile. Make it have fixed knockback that only cause flinch and we are good. She can juggle from ten miles away, which what we don't want. I never was scared of flinching needles, the only thing that is legit scary from needles are their knockback. That way she can still force approaches but at least doesn't shut down their appproaches with stratch knockbacks that comes after another.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I can't believe so many people think Palutena sucks so much without customs. I cringe every time...
Palutena is pretty decent. Not high or top, but somewhere around mid-low.
Her jab is really good (can't get out, outranges most stuff, sets up for followup combos (grab, dashattack, another jab, usmash if you're not careful, ...)), her walk- and runspeed are great, she gets grabcombos like dthrow -> fair / bair / uair. Uair can even true combo into a KO at kill % (like ~90-110?) against some characters. Uair is also like unbeatable and scary. Don't try to airdodge it offstage or you'll get spiked. Her usmash is super strong so you'll always have to be scared of that if you're in the air or at the edge/ledge. Her dashattack beats everything. Her bair beats everything and makes her almost unapproachable if she spaces with it. Her fair has great range and is quick with not much lag making it also a great "stay away" tool.

If you don't think what I say is correct then you've probably never played against a great Palutena (which wouldn't surprise me since there are almost none). She sometimes really feels broken to me, but I guess the highest she can get is mid.
Unfortunately her jab isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It's an 8 frsme jab making it one of ghe slowest jabs in the game. The only character with a slower jab is Zelda. This presents the first huge obstacle for palutena. Her cqc or boxing game is sub par compared to the rest of the cast. The jab issue flows into her other problems. Which is her non existent ground game.

Ftilt 17 frame
utilt 10 frames
dtilt 14 frames

This is absurd. She has to have the slowest set of tilts in the game which is pretty crazy considering Shulk exist. So it's rather impractical to even use these moves for spacing tools. Actually it is impractical.

Her design is poor her moveset is also poor. Without customs she has the worst set of specials in the game. She's ridiculous bad and she's not viable at all without customs.
 

RedCap-BlueSpikes

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It's weird how so many people talk about 1111 Palutena like she's "unusable" and "completely hopeless", yet her results have only improved over time and seem to be okayish at this point. I'd understand if her results were bad even for low-tier standards but when she's achieving stuff like this without help from secondaries, I find it a little hard to believe.

She definitely needs to be buffed but not as desperately as most people make it out to be, I think.
 
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ぱみゅ

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Has this thread seriously devolved into a compendium of suggested buffs/nerfs?

(talking as a regular, not as a mod)
 

Hippieslayer

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Unfortunately her jab isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It's an 8 frsme jab making it one of ghe slowest jabs in the game. The only character with a slower jab is Zelda. This presents the first huge obstacle for palutena. Her cqc or boxing game is sub par compared to the rest of the cast. The jab issue flows into her other problems. Which is her non existent ground game.

Ftilt 17 frame
utilt 10 frames
dtilt 14 frames

This is absurd. She has to have the slowest set of tilts in the game which is pretty crazy considering Shulk exist. So it's rather impractical to even use these moves for spacing tools. Actually it is impractical.

Her design is poor her moveset is also poor. Without customs she has the worst set of specials in the game. She's ridiculous bad and she's not viable at all without customs.
You forgot to mention the end lag and duration of those moves. Both utilt and ftilt are mad punishable and prone to whiff.

In any case whoever thinks Palutena is good without customs doesn't have a clue. Aerolink played her even when she didn't have customs, until he realized he couldn't do **** with her, that she has no response to pressure whatsoever, that despite her superb bair she's helpless once the opponent does get in thanks to her complete lack of cqc options, and that furthermore she's fairly easy to juggle. This in combination with the fact that her damage output without customs is very low while she also struggles to kill means she's gonna die first almost always. You have to consistently read people for ages to win with her. The exception being characters which are so slow they can't get past her suberb spacing aerials. Aerolink might not be great, but he's a solid player who placed high at apex with his highly mediocre diddy which he had recently switched too from palutena. I've seen how little he could do with Palutena, and it wasn't him playing bad, it was the character being crap.

Whoever thinks that Palutena occasionally placing in top 10 in decently stacked tourneys means she's not crap doesn't understand her. Palutena has tons of gimmicks, many of which are deadly (if matchup inexperience is a factor she goes from having no reliable kills at all to having a plethora of ways to dispatch her opponent). If you don't know how to fight her she will destroy you. Matchup inexperience is a thing yo.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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It's weird how so many people talk about 1111 Palutena like she's "unusable" and "completely hopeless", yet her results have only improved over time and seem to be okayish at this point. I'd understand if her results were bad even for low-tier standards but when she's achieving stuff like this without help from secondaries, I find it a little hard to believe.

She definitely needs to be buffed but not as desperately as most people make it out to be, I think.
One of those tournaments maybe two had Marth out place her. Those are what we call aberrations. If you wish to hang your hate on that by bye all means go ahead. Robin has placed well in tourney so has shulk greninja and zelda. Cling to what you want her tools don't stack up unfortunately.
 

RedCap-BlueSpikes

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Whoever thinks that Palutena occasionally placing in top 10 in decently stacked tourneys means she's not crap doesn't understand her. Palutena has tons of gimmicks, many of which are deadly (if matchup inexperience is a factor she goes from having no reliable kills at all to having a plethora of ways to dispatch her opponent). If you don't know how to fight her she will destroy you. Matchup inexperience is a thing yo.
She's capable of doing well even against people who know the matchup and main good characters. Just the other day, someone in the Palutena Skype Group had a close set with Boss at a tournament (after playing him online a night or two before). Apparently, Boss plays with a Palutena user from time to time so he should understand how to fight her, at least a little.

Other Palutenas have managed to keep up with players in their regions, too. Nicko's Pally still gives RichBrown trouble in-bracket, for example.
 

A_Kae

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Has this thread seriously devolved into a compendium of suggested buffs/nerfs?

(talking as a regular, not as a mod)
Don't know if you're really looking for a response here, but no. While this thread does get on the topic of buffs/nerfs way more often than it should, (seriously take it to the character subforums, you'll get way better responses and discussion there) its still got good discussion about the characters competitively.

Anyways...

Palutena is not good. Like, seriously not good.

This game is well balanced enough that it's not hopeless for her, but it's a harder fight than a lot of other characters.
 

Smog Frog

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where do you believe the following characters: :4feroy::4lucas::4myfriends::4charizard::4falco::4greninja::4rob: fall on the following scale of: competitive, viable(w/ or w/o secondary), or niche?
 

NachoOfCheese

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I'm mostly a chill dude.
But rosa is having me ready to punch holes in walls and bricks.
What am I suppose to do against her as rob? Somebody help because I'm sooo ready to fight with this amount of anger.
Look up Ally vs Rayquaza rebirth grand finals. Ally demonstrates what to do in that matchup really well.
 

Hippieslayer

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She's capable of doing well even against people who know the matchup and main good characters. Just the other day, someone in the Palutena Skype Group had a close set with Boss at a tournament (after playing him online a night or two before). Apparently, Boss plays with a Palutena user from time to time so he should understand how to fight her, at least a little.

Other Palutenas have managed to keep up with players in their regions, too. Nicko's Pally still gives RichBrown trouble in-bracket, for example.
I think she's fairly decent vs Luigi, he's one of those characters who kinda lacks an answer to her bair+fair spacing game, fireballs don't do that much for him either, what with her lingering reflect.She still isn't good though, it's not strange that she pops up in tourneys and isn't completely without results considering the popularity of the games in which she appears.
 

Routa

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where do you believe the following characters: :4feroy::4lucas::4myfriends::4charizard::4falco::4greninja::4rob: fall on the following scale of: competitive, viable(w/ or w/o secondary), or niche?
Hmmm... Hmmmm... Hmmmm....

Competitive: Roy
Viable (with secondaries): Lucas, ROB, Greninja, Ike, Falco
Niche: Charizard

I can reson why I put Charizard on Nitche, but I'm busy atm so I will reason later.
 
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meleebrawler

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I'm mostly a chill dude.
But rosa is having me ready to punch holes in walls and bricks.
What am I suppose to do against her as rob? Somebody help because I'm sooo ready to fight with this amount of anger.
You pokepokepoke Luma with dtilt on the ground and the odd gyro up close.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Hmmm... Hmmmm... Hmmmm....

Competitive: Roy
You think Roy stands an actual chance against Sheik, Rosie, Sonic, Fox, Pikachu, ZSS, Diddy and the likes? Because at this point of the metagame that's pretty much the minimum requirement to be considered 'viable' and I totally fail to see how Roy is supposed meet these requirements.

:059:
 

Wintropy

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You think Roy stands an actual chance against Sheik, Rosie, Sonic, Fox, Pikachu, ZSS, Diddy and the likes? Because at this point of the metagame that's pretty much the minimum requirement to be considered 'viable' and I totally fail to see how Roy is supposed meet these requirements.

:059:
Could you elaborate on why you think he doesn't?

Not disputing your claim, I am genuinely interested in educating myself further on this character.

I've been discussing him a lot recently with friends and colleagues and I'm...really not sure what to make of him.

I'm still convinced Roy beats Pit, though the Pit board has yet to come to a unanimous conclusion on that front.
 

Radical Larry

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Larry's New Tier List for 1.0.9.:

Top Tier (1-10): :4sheik::4fox::4sonic::4luigi::rosalina::4ness::4pikachu::4zss::4mario::4villager:
High Tier (11-20): :4diddy::4yoshi::4falcon::4link::4olimar::4myfriends::4peach::4darkpit::4pit::4megaman:
Middle Tier (21-30): :4miibrawl::4feroy::4ryu::4pacman::4rob::4ganondorf::4wario2::4tlink::4metaknight::4littlemac:
Low Tier (31-40): :4greninja::4dk::4falco::4marth::4jigglypuff::4shulk::4bowser::4lucas::4gaw::4lucario:
Very Low Tier (41-50): :4robinm::4mewtwo::4lucina::4kirby::4bowserjr::4palutena::4dedede::4charizard::4miisword::4drmario:
Bottom Tier (51-55): :4samus::4miigun::4duckhunt::4wiifit::4zelda:

Previous Tier List:
Top: :4sheik::4fox::4mario::4ness::4sonic::rosalina::4luigi::4villager::4zss::4pikachu:
High: :4darkpit::4pit::4falcon::4diddy::4yoshi::4link::4tlink::4megaman::4ryu::4miibrawl::4feroy::4pacman::4myfriends::4olimar::4littlemac::4peach::4rob::4wario2:
Middle: :4metaknight::4ganondorf::4marth::4dk::4lucina::4bowserjr::4gaw::4lucas::4lucario::4jigglypuff::4shulk::4mewtwo::4falco::4bowser::4kirby:
Low: :4robinm::4dedede::4greninja::4drmario::4miisword::4charizard::4miigun::4zelda::4wiifit::4duckhunt::4palutena:
Bottom: :4samus:

Change Log:
People make good points with Mario; he's not that unbeatable so he's been placed lower. Sure, there are alot of great Mario players out there, but like someone said; not as much consistent results as other tops.
After some convincing, Toon Link was moved to Middle Tier.
Ike was moved higher upon request.
After some convincing, Greninja got moved up a tier and Robin moved down to the top of very low tier.

Reasonings for certain Character Placement Changes (CPC):

:4diddy:(From 14th to 11th) Now, since the patch, Diddy Kong has been quite...underwhelming to say the least, no longer really deserving of top tier status. However, he is not without his strengths, as he can still perform the "Hoo-Hah" like he did before (albeit not as well), but he also still has many D-Throw setups including his swift and effective B-Air and decently-powered F-Air. He's still quick and has a good projectile game, and still has the annoying bananas. And in the air, he's still a danger with great edge-guarding and an effective meteor to boot. On the ground, he's still a threat with many set ups to coincide with bananas and throws, and his B-Throw is no slouch when it comes to KO'ing. He's still viable, but no longer broken.

:4link: (From 16th to 14th) While not a big change from my initial thoughts, Link's definitely deserving of one of the top fifteen spots now. Grab range, D-Throw and U-Smash buffs are what make him better against his opponents, especially since Link can string a very high amount of hits just with his new D-Throw setups; up to the point where you can even string up to 90% damage if you have great spacing and great timing, from one D-Throw. As well, his B-Throw is now actually effective due to the grab range buff, and his U-Smash is very deadly if it actually connects to the opponent. Link's also got good mobility, a now-effective meteor, and a very annoying yet useful projectile game. Edge-guarding is also top notch for Link because he can still easily take care of the opponent with almost all of his attacks. And his D-Smash and Spin Attack are something of marvels...deadly marvels that can put a hurting on you if Link has the capability to get in on you; and don't fall for his F-Smash, it's one of the most powerful in the game by far. He's also got plenty of mind games to boot and yet what keeps him from being higher is some slow attacks and his above-average weight, but other than that, he is definitely a character worth investing into. He's got the tools and everything to be a very viable character and stand up against the dreaded top tier characters. And yet despite this, he barely shows results, but that's because of the low-tier stigma...

:4ganondorf: (From 30th to 27th) Now I will not be talking about his specs or something; I just need to get something out of the way so that you can acknowledge that he is probably the best Super Heavyweight class character within the game; it's actually landing a Warlock Punch. Despite having his low mobility, high weight and bad aerial mobility and sub-par recovery, this is actually a saving grace for Ganondorf, especially if the opponent is around 10% damage (the normal minimum for a Reverse to KO). Ganondorf's ability to land his Warlock Punch has often been ridiculed for how tough it is, when, it's actually not all that tough to land one; at least a normal one. Often now, I find myself using F-Throw or F-Tilt to get the opponent away for a setup to Warlock Punch, or maybe even a D-Throw > U-Air can set up to it. I often put up this high risk; high reward move when the opponent is either coming back from above the stage, the opponent just misses grabbing the ledge, the opponent tries countering (or in Ryu's case, Focus Attacking), or tries to do a laggy attack. Now apply everything else that's good about him to this and you get a decent character. But um, little note, Ryu's the likeliest character to get hit by Ganondorf's normal Warlock Punch because of Focus Attack's inability to break Super Armor attacks and Warlock Punch just so happening to have SA; plus, Ryu's Focus Attack, pretty damn slow end lag. King of Evil beats the Shoto in one thing; and if he blocks the Tatsumaki, Shoto gonna die.

:4samus:(From 55th to 51st) While still pretty bad, I found that she has a great (annoying as hell) projectile game, and has some decent tools to rush up on opponents. Her grab game is also good and her F-Air is nothing to laugh at. She still lacks, however, KO ability from most of her attacks and has very high weight and a floaty nature...and while she's got good aerial mobility, that doesn't mean her recovery is good. But I still hate that quick Charge Shot charging speed.

Now these lists are being compared from early inspection to monthly inspection of the meta game and my thoughts on how the characters are going. Some have been pretty decent actually and some even have better placements than what they were because well, they seem to get better; but some characters got worse because they don't seem to be that decent or are underwhelming to say the least.

But which tier list do you like more? Which do you like less? And who do I owe an explanation on? Please tell me so.

You think Roy stands an actual chance against Sheik, Rosie, Sonic, Fox, Pikachu, ZSS, Diddy and the likes? Because at this point of the metagame that's pretty much the minimum requirement to be considered 'viable' and I totally fail to see how Roy is supposed meet these requirements.

:059:
Could you elaborate on why you think he doesn't?

Not disputing your claim, I am genuinely interested in educating myself further on this character.

I've been discussing him a lot recently with friends and colleagues and I'm...really not sure what to make of him.

I'm still convinced Roy beats Pit, though the Pit board has yet to come to a unanimous conclusion on that front.

I think Roy's not THAT viable, but he is still a decently viable character. If you think about it, he has great frame data and a great SH F-Air that can lead into double jump, and great power on his attacks and good range and speed in footsies. However, what he lacks is an edge-guarding game due to his horrible aerial inertia and the risk he puts for his attacks like D-Air and F-Air, and he also has a light weight but very bad falling speed. His recovery's also very predictable and not so good if he's from the bottom of the stage. That's the generality of Roy in a nutshell; but damn his F-Smash is too good if the sweetspot hits, and that's if. His attacks are punishable, and he really, REALLY hates tether grabs, esp. Link's.
 
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Luco

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Your tier lists are good in some areas and radical (yes I will always make this pun no I will NOT leave quietly) in others. I have major issues with your placements of :4duckhunt: (especially in customs on, but even without he's got a creative zoning game and some great set-ups) , :4greninja: (this is my biggest "what?" Greninja is a great character, with kill setups oozing out of his orifices, a still potent projectile, fantastic range and a 'what the hell is this even?' dash grab. His MUs are great and he has decent results) and both Links :4link: :4tlink: (this mostly just because I like results with my theorycraft and the links lack them in contrast to their peers, though I do get that theoretically Link could make an argument for being quite good) and to a lesser extent, :4mario: (Ally's bloody awesome but Mario just doesn't place as high as the ones around him, nor as consistently.) :4ganondorf: (The best of the heavy-weights, sure, but I don't accept reverse warlock punch as a thing that's going to sway competitive results, and he has bordering-on-hideous MUs with Sheik, Sonic and the like ( @adom4 would know a lot better than me about these ratings) ) and :4miigun: (his difficulty acquiring kills is an issue but he's just got so much potential in grenades and his moveset is like Villager with even better zoning. Also Mik! uses him every so often when he's not using Ness and does decently).
 
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Ghostbone

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Wii fit trainer is too underrated

Like she's bottom 10 not bottom 5, no character that can camp (sun salutation is like a better charge shot lmao) and kill at 100 with however ridiculously quick her f-tilt is can be bottom 5.
She's just really awkward but she at least has decent options for a bunch of situations and can escape juggles decently with b-reversing/wavebouncing.
 
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Luco

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Wii fit trainer is too underrated

Like she's bottom 10 not bottom 5, no character that can camp (sun salutation is like a better charge shot lmao) and kill at 100 with however ridiculously quick her f-tilt is can be bottom 5.
Also Nair combos for dayzzzzzzz. (or so I hear from the bloodied, half-alive corpses of Aerodrome and @ Pazx Pazx back in no-man's land)

@Waveguider uses her and places well consistently in Australia, which might mean something or that we're just biased. Meah, Wave is pretty brilliant tho.
 
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Ghostbone

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Also Nair combos for dayzzzzzzz. (or so I hear from the bloodied, half-alive corpses of Aerodrome and @ Pazx Pazx back in no-man's land)

@Waveguider uses her and places well consistently in Australia, which might mean something or that we're just biased. Meah, Wave is pretty brilliant tho.
Aus sucks, Wave's better than us too, but yea nair combos into itself and up-air so it's pretty good.
 

Shaya

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Wavebounce near-instant air dodge wave bounce repeat is really stupid :|

If it wasn't for that, the character would be pretty average. But she laughs at how impervious she is at air / off stage stalling.
Air dodges being lagless in this game is pretty evil :<

TEN FRAMES on the best air dodges was often hard to punish in Brawl. UGH.
 
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outfoxd

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If there's any argument for DHDs low placing its a lot of bad match ups. You can get creative all you want in default, right up until the other guy KOs you because you were shooting for 170%. I'm noticing that in a game where people seem to break or be broken by having killing options, having to play so well for so long is debilitating.

Why I've just decided to work with his dair and learn to spike everyone. Everyone.
 

Yoh1

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Larry's New Tier List for 1.0.9.:

Top Tier (1-10): :4sheik::4fox::4sonic::4luigi::4mario::rosalina::4ness::4pikachu::4zss::4villager:
High Tier (11-20): :4diddy::4yoshi::4falcon::4link::4olimar::4tlink::4peach::4darkpit::4pit::4megaman:
Middle Tier (21-30): :4miibrawl::4feroy::4ryu::4pacman::4rob::4ganondorf::4wario2::4myfriends::4metaknight::4littlemac:
Low Tier (31-40): :4dk::4falco::4marth::4jigglypuff::4shulk::4bowser::4lucas::4gaw::4lucario::4robinm:
Very Low Tier (41-50): :4greninja::4mewtwo::4lucina::4kirby::4bowserjr::4palutena::4dedede::4charizard::4miisword::4drmario:
Bottom Tier (51-55): :4samus::4miigun::4duckhunt::4wiifit::4zelda:

Previous Tier List:
Top: :4sheik::4fox::4mario::4ness::4sonic::rosalina::4luigi::4villager::4zss::4pikachu:
High: :4darkpit::4pit::4falcon::4diddy::4yoshi::4link::4tlink::4megaman::4ryu::4miibrawl::4feroy::4pacman::4myfriends::4olimar::4littlemac::4peach::4rob::4wario2:
Middle: :4metaknight::4ganondorf::4marth::4dk::4lucina::4bowserjr::4gaw::4lucas::4lucario::4jigglypuff::4shulk::4mewtwo::4falco::4bowser::4kirby:
Low: :4robinm::4dedede::4greninja::4drmario::4miisword::4charizard::4miigun::4zelda::4wiifit::4duckhunt::4palutena:
Bottom: :4samus:

Reasonings for certain Character Placement Changes (CPC):

:4diddy:(From 14th to 11th) Now, since the patch, Diddy Kong has been quite...underwhelming to say the least, no longer really deserving of top tier status. However, he is not without his strengths, as he can still perform the "Hoo-Hah" like he did before (albeit not as well), but he also still has many D-Throw setups including his swift and effective B-Air and decently-powered F-Air. He's still quick and has a good projectile game, and still has the annoying bananas. And in the air, he's still a danger with great edge-guarding and an effective meteor to boot. On the ground, he's still a threat with many set ups to coincide with bananas and throws, and his B-Throw is no slouch when it comes to KO'ing. He's still viable, but no longer broken.

:4link: (From 16th to 14th) While not a big change from my initial thoughts, Link's definitely deserving of one of the top fifteen spots now. Grab range, D-Throw and U-Smash buffs are what make him better against his opponents, especially since Link can string a very high amount of hits just with his new D-Throw setups; up to the point where you can even string up to 90% damage if you have great spacing and great timing, from one D-Throw. As well, his B-Throw is now actually effective due to the grab range buff, and his U-Smash is very deadly if it actually connects to the opponent. Link's also got good mobility, a now-effective meteor, and a very annoying yet useful projectile game. Edge-guarding is also top notch for Link because he can still easily take care of the opponent with almost all of his attacks. And his D-Smash and Spin Attack are something of marvels...deadly marvels that can put a hurting on you if Link has the capability to get in on you; and don't fall for his F-Smash, it's one of the most powerful in the game by far. He's also got plenty of mind games to boot and yet what keeps him from being higher is some slow attacks and his above-average weight, but other than that, he is definitely a character worth investing into. He's got the tools and everything to be a very viable character and stand up against the dreaded top tier characters. And yet despite this, he barely shows results, but that's because of the low-tier stigma...

:4ganondorf: (From 30th to 26th) Now I will not be talking about his specs or something; I just need to get something out of the way so that you can acknowledge that he is probably the best Super Heavyweight class character within the game; it's actually landing a Warlock Punch. Despite having his low mobility, high weight and bad aerial mobility and sub-par recovery, this is actually a saving grace for Ganondorf, especially if the opponent is around 10% damage (the normal minimum for a Reverse to KO). Ganondorf's ability to land his Warlock Punch has often been ridiculed for how tough it is, when, it's actually not all that tough to land one; at least a normal one. Often now, I find myself using F-Throw or F-Tilt to get the opponent away for a setup to Warlock Punch, or maybe even a D-Throw > U-Air can set up to it. I often put up this high risk; high reward move when the opponent is either coming back from above the stage, the opponent just misses grabbing the ledge, the opponent tries countering (or in Ryu's case, Focus Attacking), or tries to do a laggy attack. Now apply everything else that's good about him to this and you get a decent character. But um, little note, Ryu's the likeliest character to get hit by Ganondorf's normal Warlock Punch because of Focus Attack's inability to break Super Armor attacks and Warlock Punch just so happening to have SA; plus, Ryu's Focus Attack, pretty damn slow end lag. King of Evil beats the Shoto in one thing; and if he blocks the Tatsumaki, Shoto gonna die.

:4samus:(From 55th to 51st) While still pretty bad, I found that she has a great (annoying as hell) projectile game, and has some decent tools to rush up on opponents. Her grab game is also good and her F-Air is nothing to laugh at. She still lacks, however, KO ability from most of her attacks and has very high weight and a floaty nature...and while she's got good aerial mobility, that doesn't mean her recovery is good. But I still hate that quick Charge Shot charging speed.

Now these lists are being compared from early inspection to monthly inspection of the meta game and my thoughts on how the characters are going. Some have been pretty decent actually and some even have better placements than what they were because well, they seem to get better; but some characters got worse because they don't seem to be that decent or are underwhelming to say the least.

But which tier list do you like more? Which do you like less? And who do I owe an explanation on? Please tell me so.






I think Roy's not THAT viable, but he is still a decently viable character. If you think about it, he has great frame data and a great SH F-Air that can lead into double jump, and great power on his attacks and good range and speed in footsies. However, what he lacks is an edge-guarding game due to his horrible aerial inertia and the risk he puts for his attacks like D-Air and F-Air, and he also has a light weight but very bad falling speed. His recovery's also very predictable and not so good if he's from the bottom of the stage. That's the generality of Roy in a nutshell; but damn his F-Smash is too good if the sweetspot hits, and that's if. His attacks are punishable, and he really, REALLY hates tether grabs, esp. Link's.
Curious as to why Toon is so high
 

Ghostbone

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Also since tier lists are the cool thing to do here's one (only goes to 23 though because characters lower than that are all a jumble of not very good + ordering them is extremely subjective and mostly pointless)

S.:4sheik::rosalina::4zss::4sonic:
A. :4pikachu::4ness::4luigi::4miibrawl::4fox::4mario:
B.:4yoshi::4falcon::4metaknight::4diddy::4villager::4pit:(:4darkpit:):4olimar:
C. :4megaman::4rob::4lucario::4bowserjr::4myfriends:( this tier not ordered because I'm not really sure)

Mii brawler is obviously the light/skinny X122, I don't think customs on/off actually changes any other positions though.
Pit/Dark Pit is a meaningless distinction, they're the same character and should be judged together (so Pit in every matchup except Rosalina, Dark Pit vs Rosalina)
 
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Yikarur

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Ike is definitely one tier higher than Roy. Mii Brawler is high tier for sure as well. Has potential to be even Top Tier.
Overall I cannot agree with a lot of placings. Wow @ Link and Toon Link. Sounds utopic :D
We should really gather together like the old days to create a tier list. Backroom I miss you.
 

Radical Larry

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Your tier lists are good in some areas and radical (yes I will always make this pun no I will NOT leave quietly) in others. I have major issues with your placements of :4duckhunt: (especially in customs on, but even without he's got a creative zoning game and some great set-ups) , :4greninja: (this is my biggest "what?" Greninja is a great character, with kill setups oozing out of his orifices, a still potent projectile, fantastic range and a 'what the hell is this even?' dash grab. His MUs are great and he has decent results) and both Links :4link: :4tlink: (this mostly just because I like results with my theorycraft and the links lack them in contrast to their peers, though I do get that theoretically Link could make an argument for being quite good) and to a lesser extent, :4mario: (Ally's bloody awesome but Mario just doesn't place as high as the ones around him, nor as consistently.) :4ganondorf: (The best of the heavy-weights, sure, but I don't accept reverse warlock punch as a thing that's going to sway competitive results, and he has bordering-on-hideous MUs with Sheik, Sonic and the like ( @adom4 would know a lot better than me about these ratings) ) and :4miigun: (his difficulty acquiring kills is an issue but he's just got so much potential in grenades and his moveset is like Villager with even better zoning. Also Mik! uses him every so often when he's not using Ness and does decently).
Well, where do you think DH, Greninja, Mario and Gunner should be? Curious to tell me where.

With Link, I can justify him because he has the buffs from every patch that he could have possibly needed, as well as a great projectile game that can contest to even Sheik's projectiles (and that's saying something). Link's ability to camp in areas and even utilize his camping methods to rush in on opponent makes him an ideal, and he can also garner early KOs with his great edge-guarding capabilities. He has some decent MUs pre-patch, which are exasperated post-patch with all the buffs he's got. And he's theoretically a character who might beat Sonic and go even on Sheik, and he beats all the heavyweights and , but little go to Link to try him out.

As with Ganondorf, I didn't necessarily and only say Reverse Warlock Punches, but I added up the normal Warlock Punch. Yes, it's high risk and very high reward, but the risk is made lower thanks to F-Throw or F-Tilt, which can make the opponent, with the right spacing, timing and circumstance, run into it.

Curious as to why Toon is so high
Where do you see him as? I'm curious.

I mean, I didn't think of him so high at first, but he's almost similar to Brawl Toon Link, albeit with some buffs and nerfs here and there to balance him out. He's still got the great edge-guarding game, projectile game and even an above-average grab game outside D-Throw. His aerial game, especially F-Air is rather powerful for his weight class, his recovery is good and he's great for comboing opponents and due to his nature as a more floaty character akin to Mario, and his great mobility, he's bound to be great; he's also got the trump card against heavies, TBH. If people pick him and Link up, they could get some fast and reliable results with them, but time can tell.

Anything bad about Toon Link, though?

I am asking the opinions of others to get a better grasp upon my tier list. Although we can all admit that this tier list looks so clean and organized despite some of its shortcomings.
 

Sinister Slush

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Speaking of, put your entire username in the thing. I only read the Larry part and thought it was a tier list made by DEHF until I looked at who posted all that.
 

Yikarur

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Toon links Neutral is terrible. Toon Links damage per hit is bad.
If you're very cautious you don't really take much damage. Toon Links gameplan relies on the opponent messing up hard.
I wouldn't rate him over mid tier honestly. He has nice tools if his gameplan works but the better the opponent the harder.
 

NickRiddle

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Right...

For one, SDI doesn't exist in any real shape in sm4sh. Two it basically proves to me that you don't realise how weak DI is for Lucario, to the point that Fox infinites him at every %.

But keep thinking your toolkit isn't broken against the rest of the cast bar sheik.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp2/v/6653671?t=10h06m45s
Boost Kick killing at 45 is lack of knowledge or stage...
There also is SDI in this game, or are you telling me that if you get hit by Halberd laser you're dead?
 

Yoh1

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I personally would say he's around mid. His grab is decent but risky and he doesn't get much out of it as they can escape any follow ups from up throw, and forward throw/down throw both toss them too far to do anything past like 0%. Back throw only kills at reasonable percents towards the edge. Him being floaty can also work against him as he has a hard time landing against a lot of the top characters with above average mobility and little options to cover below him. Shield also hurts him as a lot of his tools aren't safe and can be punished relatively easily. Outside of bomb followups he can have trouble killing at times as well without a good read. Recovery is good but can be exploited by certain characters. His CQC is also not that great so he loses pretty hard up close to a lot of the top characters with better frame data. His damage output is also on the lower side. He has good options as well but overall I would say he's lacking pretty hard at the moment to be higher than mid in my opinion.
 
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Pazx

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Far out guys I said I wasn't going to talk about Wave/WFT anymore here.

WFT has 2 projectiles and 2 charge moves that can be cancelled into airdodge so she forces approaches (better than Samus ever could). Deep breathing makes everything kill, including f6 ftilt which hits both sides and both forward and up throws. When landing nair combos into ftilt/itself it becomes far safer to hold shield against an aerial WFT meaning she gets easy tomahawk grabs. She can't be gimped (although she'll bait it with SS/Deep Breathing) due to Header being a pseudo-third jump and Super Hoop covering incredible distance. WFT has one of the best ledge-trump games behind Samus with a 50/50 between run-off Sun Salutation and ledge trump. Bair is a great move, the only thing stopping WFT's jab and the rest of her aerials from being great are their range, which is sadly the story for much of this character. Range alone doesn't put a character into bottom tier.

@ Thinkaman Thinkaman : We had a decently competitive customs-enabled 64-man tourney and Wii Fit Trainer won. Default Wii Fit Trainer (vod is timestamped from losers semis, goes all the way to grands).

@ Shaya Shaya sorry for any bm on sunday I will attempt to be less of a ****head in the future
where do you believe the following characters: :4feroy::4lucas::4myfriends::4charizard::4falco::4greninja::4rob: fall on the following scale of: competitive, viable(w/ or w/o secondary), or niche?
:4greninja: - Viable. Of the characters listed, Greninja probably has the most developed meta and the best theoretical matchup spread.

:4rob: - Viable with secondary. Negative matchups against top tiers hold this character back and a secondary will be necessary if the better players in your region use top tier characters. Particularly bad against Sheik, ZSS, Falcon, Pikachu.

:4falco: - Niche use/Viable with secondary. Falco is probably worse than "viable with secondary" encapsulates but from what I can see he doesn't really have a niche. He's a decent character with some incredible tools in a game where there are many better characters with just as good tools, so he seems like he's constantly fighting an uphill battle. Probably doesn't have a polarising matchup spread, other than Rosalina I can't think of anyone he loses super convincingly to,,but just because he doesn't get bodied doesn't mean he does well.

I don't know enough about the other characters to label them properly (for me it's too soon for Royucas especially with EVO coming up) but I'd say Roy is worse than Ike.

:4greninja::4rob: > :4myfriends: > :4falco:,:4feroy:,:4charizard: (no order)

Larry's tier list actually isn't that bad if you ignore the characters he plays, and then ignore the characters below mid tier, and then squint a little bit. Not bad.
 

busken

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strong players have good "brawl" muscle memory for spot dodge buffered turn arounds (which gives you punishes on both his dash attack and dash through pivot grab) but forward tilt is ALL over that.
What is a spot dodge buffered turnaround, and how is it effective? I believe once your turnaround while running and didn't perform a pivot f-tilt or grab you would go into skid frames. Do you buffer spot dodge during the skid animation?
 
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Luigi player

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Unfortunately her jab isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It's an 8 frsme jab making it one of ghe slowest jabs in the game. The only character with a slower jab is Zelda. This presents the first huge obstacle for palutena. Her cqc or boxing game is sub par compared to the rest of the cast. The jab issue flows into her other problems. Which is her non existent ground game.

Ftilt 17 frame
utilt 10 frames
dtilt 14 frames

This is absurd. She has to have the slowest set of tilts in the game which is pretty crazy considering Shulk exist. So it's rather impractical to even use these moves for spacing tools. Actually it is impractical.

Her design is poor her moveset is also poor. Without customs she has the worst set of specials in the game. She's ridiculous bad and she's not viable at all without customs.
Yes, it is. Her jab is amazing. It might not be that fast for a jab, but it's still super useful. You mostly use it if your opponent isn't that near to you anyway (you could grab then). It's a fast poke and true combos into a grab while also being pretty disjointed and with good range and without too much lag.

And yeah, her tilts are pretty bad. Though not 100 % useless. They have some uses sometimes, just pretty rarely. Which is why you should focus on doing other stuff. No one is forcing you to use them.
How about you just jump and bair or fair (or use jab instead of tilts)? They have enough range to not be able to be shieldgrabbed unless your opponent is already in your face. And they have low enough landinglag so that you're not pressured by your opponent. You can jab afterwards, jump away again and do another aerial, or surprise with a grab.
You can (and should) mostly just bair wall the whole time anyway. It has good shieldpushback, it does decent damage against shields. And if your opponent doesn't shield he gets beaten anyway. His only options are like spotdodging or airdodging through or something, but most of the time Palutena will not have a framedisadvantage after that still and be able to follow up or at least not get hit by jumping / dodging or just moving away.
 

Thinkaman

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Yes, it is. Her jab is amazing. It might not be that fast for a jab, but it's still super useful. You mostly use it if your opponent isn't that near to you anyway (you could grab then). It's a fast poke and true combos into a grab while also being pretty disjointed and with good range and without too much lag.
Most characters can evade the grab at most %s with a double jump. It's also possible to beat it with a few oddball specials, and any aerial with a early-activation landing hitbox like Pikachu fair or Mario dair. (Fortunately I haven't seen many nairs or Sheik fair be able to actually get out in time to beat it directly, special thanks to Sheik's fall speed.)
 

Luco

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Well, where do you think DH, Greninja, Mario and Gunner should be? Curious to tell me where.

With Link, I can justify him because he has the buffs from every patch that he could have possibly needed, as well as a great projectile game that can contest to even Sheik's projectiles (and that's saying something). Link's ability to camp in areas and even utilize his camping methods to rush in on opponent makes him an ideal, and he can also garner early KOs with his great edge-guarding capabilities. He has some decent MUs pre-patch, which are exasperated post-patch with all the buffs he's got. And he's theoretically a character who might beat Sonic and go even on Sheik, and he beats all the heavyweights and , but little go to Link to try him out.

As with Ganondorf, I didn't necessarily and only say Reverse Warlock Punches, but I added up the normal Warlock Punch. Yes, it's high risk and very high reward, but the risk is made lower thanks to F-Throw or F-Tilt, which can make the opponent, with the right spacing, timing and circumstance, run into it.
There's 'high risk, high reward' and then there's 'this move is so high risk it will almost never hit against a competitive player and suddenly I'm taking 30-50%'.

Fthrow ---> warlock punch a competitive player. They will wait outside your range until you're done and grab you on the cool-down (or if on low percent, grab you on the start-up), and against some characters you really don't want that (one of the biggest reasons :4ness: wins against :4ganondorf: is because grabs get Ganon off-stage, where Ness can make his life literal hell with PKT. This strategy would cripple you against a competent Ness).

Link has a better case but when the results don't match the theory we have to ask why. We absolutely have to.

For the characters I mentioned earlier, I think :4duckhunt: belongs somewhere in your "low tier" (in customs on high mid in a heartbeat, possibly higher), probably along with :4bowserjr: too who does get rep with Tweek, :4mario: should be in your high tier or mayyybeeee where you've put him since that edit, :4miigun: should at the very least be in "very low tier" or "low tier", :4greninja: should be in your "high tier" and :4tlink: at the very least should be in your mid tier, imo along with :4link: whilst :4ganondorf: goes to where greninja is about now.
 

busken

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I'm trying to make a combo compendium for a few characters and instead of testing which combos work on every character, I'm trying to think of a way to break down the cast in groups. Basically, I'm trying to find out at X% this will work X, X, X, and X regardless of DI. The grouping is going to be really tricky, but the things that are very important are character weight and fall speed. For example, Jigglypuff , Mr game and watch, Kirby has similar weight and fall speeds so most combos that will work on one will most likely work on the other. Then their are characters that are heavy, but fall slowly so they are floaty(samus) and can be grouped with characters that are middleweight but dont fall as slowly but still fall kinda slowly like Ness and Wii Fit Trainer. Weirdly, those 3 seem be a group of how they are comboed. If you wanna factor DI they we need to look at character air speed. Character hurtbox size is not that important because most character's don't have poor range that would miss a character's hurtbox under best circumstances. Some rare examples are probably Jigglypuff u-air and Ryu u-air.

I can find these combo groups by myself but i was wondering if anybody has previously thought of this and has done a significant amount of work already. If you would like to help me you can post some info here and we can talk about it or converse with me privately.
 
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