Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

To be fair, Jigglypuff is one of the few characters from the first game that anyone ever seems to be okay with cutting.

I forget if she was actually a lower priority character in the last few games barring Ultimate or not, but there's definitely still people who issue with her moveset.

IIRC, she was very much implied to nearly miss out on Brawl, given that she was one of the post-story characters in Subspace.

 

[Gengar84]

Nah, I don't think being from a video game property makes them an exception.

Non-video game content can be referenced (how Pokemon speak, Ash-Greninja, Advent Children stuff, Blood Vengeance in the case of Nina Williams' spirit artwork) but if Sakurai managed to spend this much time without adding any first-party character not from a video game, I think it's fair to say the "video game only" rule isn't just for guest characters.

Yeah, you could be right too. I don’t think we really have enough information to know one way or the other. If they’re a Nintendo owned property, I think they should be allowed. For example, ROB is a physical object and not actually a video game character so he already bends the rules. I’m not exactly demanding Jessie and James get in, just that they’d be cool. It’s fine if they’re determined to be off limits but I feel like that’s up for debate at least.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Best case scenario would be Meowth being able to talk.

But that ship has long sailed.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah, you could be right too. I don’t think we really have enough information to know one way or the other. If they’re a Nintendo owned property, I think they should be allowed. For example, ROB is a physical object and not actually a video game character so he already bends the rules. I’m not exactly demanding Jessie and James get in, just that they’d be cool. It’s fine if they’re determined to be off limits but I feel like that’s up for debate at least.

R.O.B. technically bends the rules but he was also designed for video games so he still fits the "video game only" criteria, even if in an unorthodox way.

We didn't get a season of a R.O.B. anime before getting the peripheral.

 

[Gengar84]

Well the TRio is worse off at this point, at least Pokemon Horizons doesn't mean Jigglypuff is abolished from the anime.

True but Team Rocket had a much longer run of being super relevant in the anime compared to Jigglypuff even if neither is used anymore. Plus, I just thought it was a cool and unique way to represent Pokemon beyond what we’ve already done.

 

[Noipoi]

Unless the cuts get super tight Jigglypuff is sticking around. At this point I think that they think it’s funny that she’s been in every single game.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

That being said, would like if Puff Up got reworked into an actual decent attack.

Would also like a Scream Tail alt but don't know how likely that is because of the size difference and things like the hair, and doubt it'd be added as an Echo since Jigglypuff usually ends up happening late in development already lol

 

[ScrubReborn]

I'm not terribly surprised. I think what confused me was recalling a debate where people were questioning whether or not Jigglypuff being low priority actually meant she was at risk of being cut or if the developers just waiting to work on her until most other characters were finished.

Mix of both. It seems priority roughly determines the order characters are worked on, and characters at the end are naturally at risk of getting dropped if time is cramped.

IIRC, she was very much implied to nearly miss out on Brawl, given that she was one of the post-story characters in Subspace.

It's not an assumption, her near exclusion in Brawl's actually been directly confirmed by Sakurai.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'd honestly like to see Puff get a few different moves in general. At least Rollout maybe being replaced and maybe change out her Up-aerial.

Sing got buffed in Ultimate enough that it can actually be used somewhat effectively and stun players who have played the game for more than the span of a single day, but I think it's also got room for improvement.

Pound is a decent approach and recovery move and Rest is, well, Rest, so they can stay.

 

[Noipoi]

That being said, would like if Puff Up got reworked into an actual decent attack.

Would also like a Scream Tail alt but don't know how likely that is because of the size difference and things like the hair, and doubt it'd be added as an Echo since Jigglypuff usually ends up happening late in development already lol

Puff Up gets retconned into Dynamax. Not only does she get huge, she also uses a Max Move.

 

[Guynamednelson]

At this point I think that they think it’s funny that she’s been in every single game.

Well a game about bringing everyone back wouldn't exactly be the best time to cut Jigglypuff anyway

 

[Stratos]

Yeah, you could be right too. I don’t think we really have enough information to know one way or the other. If they’re a Nintendo owned property, I think they should be allowed. For example, ROB is a physical object and not actually a video game character so he already bends the rules. I’m not exactly demanding Jessie and James get in, just that they’d be cool. It’s fine if they’re determined to be off limits but I feel like that’s up for debate at least.

R.O.B. may be a physical object and not a video game character, but it is Nintendo. I have written before that the beauty of the Super Smash Bros. series is that it only accepts video game characters and if it is going to accept characters that are not from video games, they should be Nintendo, for example here are five that are related to Nintendo:

Daitoryou (Nintendo Hanafuda cards)
Tengu (Nintendo Hanafuda cards)
Mini Kangaroo (Mini Game Series)
Nester (Nintendo Power)
Kevin Keene (Captain N: The Game Master)

 

[Noipoi]

Well a game about bringing everyone back wouldn't exactly be the best time to cut Jigglypuff anyway

EVERYONE IS HERE*

*EXCEPT JIGGLYPUFF BECAUSE **** YOU

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

EVERYONE IS HERE*

EXCEPT JIGGLYPUFF BECAUSE *** YOU

Didn't that almost happen with Cloud?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Didn't that almost happen with Cloud?

Mainly because of Square Enix but you can bet that if Cloud hadn't made it in, they would not market the game with "EVERYONE IS HERE!" because it would be false.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think as far as we know, Jigglypuff was:

• 64: a last minute addition because they could.
• Melee: of unknown priority.
• Brawl: a last minute addition, and only because they got a delay for Sonic that also allowed them to squeeze in a couple clones.
• SSB4: of unknown priority.
• Ultimate: high priority because of "Everyone is Here".

It's pretty obvious that its legacy combined with ease of implementation is what keeps it coming back. With the growing number of veteran clones that balance might shift out of its favor in the future. Currently, I think it could go either way with my likeliness barometer tilting slightly toward optimism.

What do you guys think of this Sonic overhaul mod?

It's an improvement, but I have a couple nitpicks:

1. Spring does not need a rising hitbox that combos into other stuff.
2. Boost's implementation is actually quite clever, giving him Spin Dash without the problems of Spin Dash. However, it seems to be a bit stronger, causing it to outclass Spin Charge.

Other than that, I like it, and have a preference for Modern Style.

 

[Noipoi]

Didn't that almost happen with Cloud?

I think so yeah.

Which would’ve been really funny if they managed to get every to single character back except for Cloud, so they just market it like a normal Smash game despite the fact that freaking Young Link and Pichu are here.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Puff Up gets retconned into Dynamax. Not only does she get huge, she also uses a Max Move.

Honestly, that's what I've been hoping for. Puff Up into a Dynamax size with the clouds and everything and then use Max Starfall so she actually has something Fairy-adjacent.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Spring does not need a rising hitbox that combos into other stuff.

I think it's fine if up air's strength is massively nerfed because then it becomes a compensation buff; he loses the cheesy up throw, up B, up air cheesy kill confirm he had but gains a deeper combo game off of that throw specifically.

Top tiers don't always need to be nerfed to the ground to become tolerable. Sometimes they can get a few buffs too.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Where is the source for Cloud almost not making it in, anyway? I don’t even remember reading an article about it/that mentions it.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If we're talking Jigglypuff changes, what I would go with is replacing Rollout with Disarming Voice, a projectile attack inspired by I-No's Antidepressant Scale from the Guilty Gear series. The projectile would have a decent amount of startup, but would move somewhat slowly, and its trajectory can be curved up or down, allowing it to control a whole lot of space so Jigglypuff can approach.

I think this would be a welcome change since Jigglypuff is a fairly unpopular pixie design due to it wanting Jigglypuff to not interact with the opponent until they can punish something. This way, they'd have the ability to force an interaction of some kind even while not in advantage.

I think it's fine if up air's strength is massively nerfed because then it becomes a compensation buff; he loses the cheesy up throw, up B, up air cheesy kill confirm he had but gains a deeper combo game off of that throw specifically.

Top tiers don't always need to be nerfed to the ground to become tolerable. Sometimes they can get a few buffs too.

I didn't know he could do that. lol

In which case, yeah that's probably fine.

Where is the source for Cloud almost not making it in, anyway? I don’t even remember reading an article about it/that mentions it.

IIRC it was either a leak or a rumor, and I remember being confused about the legitimacy of the information at the time too.

 

[Gengar84]

R.O.B. may be a physical object and not a video game character, but it is Nintendo. I have written before that the beauty of the Super Smash Bros. series is that it only accepts video game characters and if it is going to accept characters that are not from video games, they should be Nintendo, for example here are five that are related to Nintendo:

Daitoryou (Nintendo Hanafuda cards)
Tengu (Nintendo Hanafuda cards)
Mini Kangaroo (Mini Game Series)
Nester (Nintendo Power)
Kevin Keene (Captain N: The Game Master)

Yeah, that was my thought process for including Jessie and James. I think that since they’re owned by Nintendo, they should be eligible for Smash, especially with such deep ties to video games like they have.

 

[fogbadge]

speaking of puff got my second shiny one this morning anyone still up for Scream Tail?

 

[RouffWestie]

Where is the source for Cloud almost not making it in, anyway? I don’t even remember reading an article about it/that mentions it.

It comes from this interview with Sakurai about Ultimate's development details

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If we're talking Jigglypuff changes, what I would go with is replacing Rollout with Disarming Voice, a projectile attack inspired by I-No's Antidepressant Scale from the Guilty Gear series. The projectile would have a decent amount of startup, but would move somewhat slowly, and its trajectory can be curved up or down, allowing it to control a whole lot of space so Jigglypuff can approach.

I think this would be a welcome change since Jigglypuff is a fairly unpopular pixie design due to it wanting Jigglypuff to not interact with the opponent until they can punish something. This way, they'd have the ability to force an interaction of some kind even while not in advantage.

As a bonus, it also gives her a Fairy-type move, which fits with the type change she's had since X and Y.

 

[Gengar84]

speaking of puff got my second shiny one this morning anyone still up for Scream Tail?

Scream Tail would be a cool Jigglypuff echo if they decide to keep her. I’d be down for that even if my end list is different.

 

[CannonStreak]

I am all for moveset changes and all, but if I know Sakurai well, will that even happen for any character?

I remember reading that Sakurai is apparently not much of a fan of changing moveset, something like that.

 

[NintenRob]

Where is the source for Cloud almost not making it in, anyway? I don’t even remember reading an article about it/that mentions it.

I believe there was an article where Sakurai says everyone is here almost didn't due to licensing issues. While this could originally be interpreted as talking about Snake, given the quantity of Konami contents, it seems they were fully on board. Compare that to square enix, where everything base game was what was already in Smash 4. Cloud sticks out like a sore thumb compared to all the other base game third party characters

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I am all for moveset changes and all, but if I know Sakurai well, will that even happen for any character?

I remember reading that Sakurai is apparently not much of a fan of changing moveset, something like that.

For any character? Yeah actually.

Every game has replaced a move or two on at least one character. Going from memory, Melee's was the most drastic, giving everyone a new special move, Brawl changed Mario's down special and down aerial, retooled Ganondorf to become slower and more powerful, and retooled Falco to what he is now, SSB4 game Zelda, Sheik, and Charizard new down specials, swapped out some of Sonic's moves, and retooled Roy, and Ultimate replaced a move or two for Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Dr. Mario, Link, and Toon Link, and gave Wolf and Zelda a face lift.

 

[Guynamednelson]

retooled Ganondorf to become slower

That was already the case with Melee, it's just more obvious when there's no wavedashing.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I am all for moveset changes and all, but if I know Sakurai well, will that even happen for any character?

I remember reading that Sakurai is apparently not much of a fan of changing moveset, something like that.

I think Sakurai is okay doing it more incrementally, so like a complete Ganondorf/Lucario/Sonic rework is unlikely (as much as a lot of players would like them), but giving Jigglypuff a new Neutral Special is a little more within reason, like how Mario went from Mario Tornado to FLUDD between Melee and Brawl.

 

[RileyXY1]

I believe there was an article where Sakurai says everyone is here almost didn't due to licensing issues. While this could originally be interpreted as talking about Snake, given the quantity of Konami contents, it seems they were fully on board. Compare that to square enix, where everything base game was what was already in Smash 4. Cloud sticks out like a sore thumb compared to all the other base game third party characters

Yeah. I've also heard about a fan theory that claims that Sephiroth was added as part of a deal Sakurai made with Square Enix in order to have Cloud in the base roster at all, as SE wanted to make him DLC again and thus ruin Everyone is Here. The deal stated that Cloud could be added in Ultimate's base roster, but the only FF content at launch would be what Smash 4 already had, along with a promise to add a second FF7 character in the game's DLC which would be where all the actual new FF7 content would be added, and due to his legacy Sakurai ultimately chose Sephiroth to be that second FF7 character.

 

[SPEN18]

Idk, I think the "oh yeah she'll surely jump the line at the end and squeak in" thing, even if actually true to begin with, is kind of a precarious place to be, and likely to eventually prove unreliable. Jigglypuff has an extensive history of low priority, and while it takes less work than a lot of others, it's still very far from something like an Echo, and faces growing competition even within the pool of lower-effort inclusions.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Well in that case I think I prefer the modern style which is funny since I've barely touched modern sonic

After playing Generations, I came to the conclusion that Modern Sonic actually has a better 2D moveset than Classi Sonic.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Jigglypuff should get Draining Kiss as a command grab. I also would move Sing to one of Jigglypuff's other specials (and buff it) and then give it a new up special, since it's always bugged me a lot how it has the only up special that doesn't give recovery.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Jigglypuff should get Draining Kiss as a command grab. I also would move Sing to one of Jigglypuff's other specials (and buff it) and then give it a new up special, since it's always bugged me a lot how it has the only up special that doesn't give recovery.

That's part of the "joke".

Also Jigglypuff has already got insane recovery. It doesn't need more.

 

[ninjahmos]

RE: Star Fox

Personally, I kind of would like remakes of Star Fox Adventures and Star Fox Assault, as well as a new Star Fox game with Star Fox 2's RTS elements and a more cohesive story compared to Command.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Jigglypuff should get Draining Kiss as a command grab. I also would move Sing to one of Jigglypuff's other specials (and buff it) and then give it a new up special, since it's always bugged me a lot how it has the only up special that doesn't give recovery.

I think it's kinda neat how not every fighter has an up-B that boosts them upwards, it's a shame they stopped after 64.

 

[SharkLord]

I think they might be an exception because they originate from a video game property. I’m not entirely sure how strict Sakurai’s definition is. Lu Bu is another edge case. I could easily remove both if neither are allowed but they’d both be cool. We did get Advent Children content in Smash so that already kind of breaks the game only rule.

I mean we have Count Dracula as a boss and Dr. Kawashima as an AT. I think public domain figures like Lu Bu are fine

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I just think that the longer Jigglypuff stays, the more essential she becomes.

Brawl was the time to cut her. Nowadays it wouldn't be seen favorably.