Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[NotGenerico]

I don't remember if there was other stuff that destroyed Vergeben (I feel like there was, but others would have to verify that lol), but since Steve talks took like 5 years or however long, source may have just known about Minecraft for Smash talks were happening, but not how long the talks would take or that Steve would end up being in the second set of DLC and just assumed it was for base game.

The last thing I remember about Vergeben is that he incorrectly said that Master Chief was going to be announced as a newcomer on E3 2021. It was Kazuya instead and I don't recall Vergeben ever leaking anything after that.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I still want to know what happened with Steve. Vergeben had a flawless track record with his only blemish being that Steve didn’t make it into base game but it seems all but confirmed that he was planned for Smash all the way back then. Were they just too far in that the stages needed reworked regardless and had to take that much time? Or was there other issues going on behind the scenes? Real head scratcher that one.


I just had the wildest flashback to our time in the old K. Rook thread. Glad to see your still around too!!

Wasnt it a thing that it took a bit to properly program Steve into the game due to the mining mechanic?

 

[Gorgonzales]

Vergeben with Steve is like Gematsu in the sense that both of them presumably got info on early development details that ended up changing down the road.

It's still really fascinating to me that despite how tightly the ship is run at Nintendo, info like this still somehow manages to get out.

I still want to know what the story behind that Master Chief claim of his is. Was Nintendo/Sora onto him and made it so that he was deliberately given blatantly wrong info? Was Master Chief actually in the works but for whatever reason never made it? We may never know, but thinking about it is fun.

 

[Dukefire]

I'd imagine people/companies in the process of having their IPs added to Smash would be under extreme NDA to the point where they can't say anything that'd even remotely indicate or tease a Smash character happening. This is probably for something completely unrelated.

When it comes to characters wanting for this invite to join...

Nintendo and Sakurai WILL make sure invitations are kept secretly passed around after negotiations are met. Everyone is looking for clues even if it isn't ready yet...

 

[The Prankster 16]

I still want to know what happened with Steve. Vergeben had a flawless track record with his only blemish being that Steve didn’t make it into base game but it seems all but confirmed that he was planned for Smash all the way back then. Were they just too far in that the stages needed reworked regardless and had to take that much time? Or was there other issues going on behind the scenes? Real head scratcher that one.

I'm pretty sure that Vergeben didn't say Steve specifically would be in, only that minecraft content would be included. What TheFirstPoppyBro said about Steve's development taking a while could be the reason for that, but I also think I saw somewhere that Rathalos is referred to in the code of Ultimate as "End Dragon", which may have been the reason he was so insistent on Minecraft content being base game. He also was only really reliable for the base game and the first few DLC characters, so I doubt he knew that far ahead that Steve specifically was going to be included.

 

[Wonder Smash]

well their gonna have to replace Live and Learn with something else now.

Why not just have both?

 

[smashkirby]

In the past, surprise characters included retro characters from the early NES (and one before). Even Piranha Plant, as evergreen as it is, is an early NES character. Should the surprise characters expand to other consoles?

Oh, definitely.

I mean, we've got Muddy Mole, Lip, Lark, Michael Anderson (from Battle Clash), Kevin (from Kakurenbo Battle), Hiro (from Card Hero), Ryota Hayami, and Akari Hayami (to name a few options).

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Why not just have both?

https://www.ign.com/articles/writer-of-beloved-sonic-the-hedgehog-song-live-and-learn-is-suing-sega

Knowing Sega and licensing songs...

 

[chocolatejr9]

Okay, I know it'll never happen (unless they do something weird like use DK64 to justify it), but I've had this idea stuck in my head and I need to get it out there: what if we got another Rare rep... and it was Jetman from Jetpac? I know, it'll NEVER happen (especially not before other Rare reps like Conker, Joanne, the Battletoads, heck even Viva Pinata is more likely), but for some reason that though just will not get out of my head no matter how hard I try. Might be the more historical aspect of it, I think? Again, not entirely sure why I've been thinking about it.

 

[SPEN18]

In the past, surprise characters included retro characters from the early NES (and one before). Even Piranha Plant, as evergreen as it is, is an early NES character. Should the surprise characters expand to other consoles?

I mean given that they're specifically intended to be surprising, restricting attention only to NES and pre-NES eras would be exactly the kind of hyper-focused, reductionist error the Smash fanbase is apt to make, no?

Seriously though, as I already basically said, given that it's supposed to be a surprise, and Sakurai is surely well aware of fans' incessant pattern-searching, maybe at some point he'd consider choosing a character from a different era of origin to be something that could add to the surprise element. Though, that said, there are still realistically viable NES-era reps that could still be considered plenty "surprising" at least from a general audience standpoint. And I mean, "surprise" means different things, sometimes it means "literally surprising" and sometimes it might just mean "character who wouldn't usually make it based on usual factors like relevance or fan demand," often times both.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Why not just have both?

Well, I think it depends on the outcome of that lawsuit where Johnny Gioeli from Crush 40 is suing SEGA of America for using Live and Learn in a bunch of projects without paying him royalties? I think that's what it was anyway.

He claims he owns the master recording (basically everything but the lyrics themselves) and was therefore not compensated properly. He's basically suing to figure out who legally owns the song and asking for compensation if it is determined that he owns it due to making the master recording.

If that's the case, I feel like it could potentially leave Smash the same way Checker Knights did after Brawl since it was an anime original and was created by an outside composer lol

 

[SPEN18]

Porky and Rayquaza were two of my favorite bosses in the series...shame they didn't return...

 

[DarthEnderX]

I really really hope the next Smash Bros uses Fury Bowser in a significant way. The design is just goes so hard and is by far my favourite transformation for Bowser and is the perfect final smash for the guy. I know Giga Bowser is kinda tradition but he can still be a boss. Let Fury Bowser have his time to shine

Fury Bowser for both.

I would personally replace Giga Bowser with this guy. I feel like now that there's basically a series-faithful Giga Bowser equivalent, that would supersede the original Smash creation.

That's also why Andross should replace Master/Crazy Hands.

Should the surprise characters expand to other consoles?

What, like, Alex Kidd or something?

 

[Wonder Smash]

https://www.ign.com/articles/writer-of-beloved-sonic-the-hedgehog-song-live-and-learn-is-suing-sega

Knowing Sega and licensing songs...

Well, I think it depends on the outcome of that lawsuit where Johnny Gioeli from Crush 40 is suing SEGA of America for using Live and Learn in a bunch of projects without paying him royalties? I think that's what it was anyway.

He claims he owns the master recording (basically everything but the lyrics themselves) and was therefore not compensated properly. He's basically suing to figure out who legally owns the song and asking for compensation if it is determined that he owns it due to making the master recording.

If that's the case, I feel like it could potentially leave Smash the same way Checker Knights did after Brawl since it was an anime original and was created by an outside composer lol

I had no idea all that was going on. It would be a shame if that ends up getting removed.

Though either way, I'd be listening to Twinkle Circuit more anyway.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What, like, Alex Kidd or something?

They likely meant other Nintendo consoles, but 3rd party surprise characters would be fun.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In the past, surprise characters included retro characters from the early NES (and one before). Even Piranha Plant, as evergreen as it is, is an early NES character. Should the surprise characters expand to other consoles?

Yes. Of course.

I would like to say Isaac (Golden Sun) is a good choice but with his popularity, he's hardly a surprise.

Our next Zelda newcomer might just fit the bill however. They might just go crazy and include a Lynel as a fighter. Which would be hype as ****.

 

[dream1ng]

That's also why Andross should replace Master/Crazy Hands.
View attachment 398422

Disagreed on this one. For specific fighter-related stuff, if there's canon content to take from, go for it - but the "main boss" of Smash is best left series agnostic so no IP is above the others. I mean, if Smash's main boss was a character from Star Fox that... to most, would be weird.

Also idk if Sakurai is still rolling with the "toys fighting" motif as the crux of Smash, but if he is, the Hands are a big part of that.

That said, had Galleom and Duon not existed in favor of established boss characters, I think that would've been preferred overall.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I had no idea all that was going on. It would be a shame if that ends up getting removed.

Though either way, I'd be listening to Twinkle Circuit more anyway.

I feel like SEGA will be the one deemed the owner, maybe co-owner at worst but I more expect the former because like sure maybe he made the master recording, but he still made it while working with Jun Senoue to create a song for SEGA for a Sonic game, and Live and Learn is literally the only song Crush 40 has ever made with this weirdness about it.

I dunno, I'm pretty clueless about music ownership laws, but like I would think it would make sense that if he made a master recording of a song that SEGA asked him and Jun to make, SEGA would still own it at the end of the day?

Just a weird situation all around.

 

[dream1ng]

Yes. Of course.

I would like to say Isaac (Golden Sun) is a good choice but with his popularity, he's hardly a surprise.

Our next Zelda newcomer might just fit the bill however. They might just go crazy and include a Lynel as a fighter. Which would be hype as ****.

Isaac is pretty much the opposite of what they look for in a surprise characters, with him being niche but with strong demand whereas surprise characters these days are widely familiar but barely requested/expected.

I guess a Lynel would fit... but if the surprise character was yet again a mook I'd be pretty disappointed. Also fwiw, Lynels originated on the NES too.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Isaac is pretty much the opposite of what they look for in a surprise characters, with him being niche but with strong demand whereas surprise characters these days are widely familiar but barely requested/expected.

I guess a Lynel would fit... but if the surprise character was yet again a mook I'd be pretty disappointed. Also fwiw, Lynels originated on the NES too.

Yeah Isaac doesn't fit that bill. He's more in the leagues of K.Rool. Very heavily pushed by fan demand.

The Lynel is a choice for a good surprise character but I feel that Master Kogha would also fit very well. He's not expected in the slightest.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah Isaac doesn't fit that bill. He's more in the leagues of K.Rool. Very heavily pushed by fan demand.

The Lynel is a choice for a good surprise character but I feel that Master Kogha would also fit very well. He's not expected in the slightest.

Next Zelda character can only be the one:

Spoiler

"Leave it to me."

And when Alfonzo is fighting, a Lynel will take control of the train.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Next Zelda character can only be the one:

Spoiler

1738213356498.png

"Leave it to me."



And when Alfonzo is fighting, a Lynel will take control of the train.

I still rather have Impa. The one truly deserving Zelda newcomer.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Next Zelda character can only be the one:

Spoiler

View attachment 398423
"Leave it to me."

And when Alfonzo is fighting, a Lynel will take control of the train.

Just when you think you've seen it too much for it to be funny...it's still funny. lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Yeah Isaac doesn't fit that bill. He's more in the leagues of K.Rool. Very heavily pushed by fan demand.

The Lynel is a choice for a good surprise character but I feel that Master Kogha would also fit very well. He's not expected in the slightest.

As the one that basically got people to look at Kohga as a potential option as a Newcomer, he'd be a poor example to fit the "surprise character".
He'd be someone like Rosalina was for Smash For. A pick that's unexpected, but one that's reflective of games released since the last Smash's project proposal based around what they offer as fighters.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

At this point, I dont think zelda is ever gonna move past the main 3. Some weird fascination Sakurai has along with not wanting any kirby character from a game he had no part in.

 

[DarthEnderX]

but the "main boss" of Smash is best left series agnostic so no IP is above the others.

I disagree.

It'd be one thing if this was a split crossover between 2 companies, and you wanted to avoid favoritism. But this game is Nintendo+friends.

We already have tons of series above others in Smash. Some series have Bosses, some don't. Some series have more Fighters or ATs than others.

A series getting to have the "Final Boss" is no different than Mario Bros. always getting the First Fighter.


That said, if Smash was going to have a non-OC Final Boss, it shouldn't be Andross.

It should be Ganon, Giygas, or one of Kirby's eldritch horrors.

That said, had Galleom and Duon not existed in favor of established boss characters, I think that would've been preferred overall.

100%. Shoulda been Metal Gear REX and Death Egg Robot in SSE instead.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

At this point, I dont think zelda is ever gonna move past the main 3. Some weird fascination Sakurai has along with not wanting any kirby character from a game he had no part in.

The funniest thing with the Kirby character bit is technically Sakurai DID have a part in Bandana Dee's original appearance. It's in his favorite game to pull from, no less!

I still really want Megaton Punch as his Final Smash as a nod to this because he's the P2 in it, so he's firmly capable of punching Pop Star in twain.

 

[Diddy Kong]

At this point, I dont think zelda is ever gonna move past the main 3. Some weird fascination Sakurai has along with not wanting any kirby character from a game he had no part in.

He didn't do it before but am quite sure Zelda and Kirby are gonna get their newcomers this time.

Its been way too long, and both series have grown a lot ever since their respective Smash game where there was a "newcomer bomb" dropped on them. For Zelda it was Melee following after the massive success of Ocarina of Time, and Brawl had Meta Knight and Dedede who could've been included earlier too.

Kind of a similar thing with Donkey Kong and Metroid. We never really thought it was gonna expand beyond Diddy and Zero Suit Samus either. Sure thing, Dixie was expected ever since Smash 4, and we still wait for her patiently. But yeah. Kinda confident in a newcomer for both Kirby and Zelda.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

He didn't do it before but am quite sure Zelda and Kirby are gonna get their newcomers this time.

Its been way too long, and both series have grown a lot ever since their respective Smash game where there was a "newcomer bomb" dropped on them. For Zelda it was Melee following after the massive success of Ocarina of Time, and Brawl had Meta Knight and Dedede who could've been included earlier too.

Kind of a similar thing with Donkey Kong and Metroid. We never really thought it was gonna expand beyond Diddy and Zero Suit Samus either. Sure thing, Dixie was expected ever since Smash 4, and we still wait for her patiently. But yeah. Kinda confident in a newcomer for both Kirby and Zelda.

I will only expect a new Zelda character if Ganondorf gets some sort alter ego thats different enough from the usual Ganondorf like Shiek in the next 3D zelda, otherwise im convinced him only wanting the wielders of the triforce as one of those "personal directors choices" like keeping Bowser and Dedede with realistic animal sounds.

 

[Louie G.]

like keeping Dedede with realistic animal sounds.

That's pretty much just how Dedede sounds in the actual games. I don't really think that's how penguins sound, anyway.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

That's pretty much just how Dedede sounds in the actual games. I don't really think that's how penguins sound, anyway.

Meanwhile Meta Knight has his spanish voice that originated from the anime

 

[Thegameandwatch]

im convinced him only wanting the wielders of the triforce as one of those "personal directors choices"

Although if it’s by the literal definition then Link in Ultimate is the first that never had access to the Triforce.

I think it’s implied or speculated that BOTW Zelda has it.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Meanwhile Meta Knight has his spanish voice that originated from the anime

No, he definitely does not.

The only voice he has from the anime is the Japanese one. The English one is original to Brawl.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

No, he definitely does not.

The only voice he has from the anime is the Japanese one. The English one is original to Brawl.

Its not the same VA but its obvious what voice direction they were going for originated from the anime.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Its not the same VA but its obvious what voice direction they were going for originated from the anime.

Not at all.

One is Zorro. The other is Darth Vader.

Edited to put a character example that fit perfectly.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

At this point, I dont think zelda is ever gonna move past the main 3. Some weird fascination Sakurai has along with not wanting any kirby character from a game he had no part in.

Honestly, I think we'll get Impa next to around. With Shiek probably being cut the death by a thousand wounds ninja character is gone from the roster. Impa has the perfect storm of popularity, moveset potential, relevance, legacy, and is perfectly primed to slot into Sheiks niche.

Nontriforce characters and Zelda's characters as a whole was probably one of Ultimates biggest complaints (aside from functional aspects like online), so I think even if it is a rule Sakurai carried into making the last game, it'd at least be one he rethinks this time around.

Kinda makes me wish we got another ballot so there was a more direct way to make our newcomer wants heard, but that probably would've complicated things a lot and caused drama. Wii U's had it its own slew of issues, even if I think it can be called a pretty big success in the end.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Not at all.

One is Zorro. The other is Darth Vader.

Edited to put a character example that fit perfectly.

You can clearly hear the spanish accent.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

You can clearly hear the spanish accent.

I think you need to get your ears checked if you think Smash Meta Knight has anything remotely like a Spanish accent like anime Meta Knight.

 

[Ivander]

You can clearly hear the spanish accent.

If all Spanish people sounded like Darth Vader, you'd see them in more villain roles compared to the British.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

You can clearly hear the spanish accent.

I mean he has an accent in Smash sure, but it's nowhere near as pronounced as the anime's.

Not entirely sure what this has to do with Dedede being voiced by Sakurai like he is in Crystal Shards, sounding like he normally does in the games, just with more reverb.

I guess the point was that Meta Knight doesn't really sound like that in the games? But like I'm pretty sure some of his audio from more recent games like Star Allies like the end of his victory dance has the same sort of vibe as his Japanese voice actor for Smash, it's just Meta Knight also doesn't make much noise to begin with in the games outside of like Battle Royale I guess, which even then still kinda sounds like his JP Smash voice actor even though it's a random HAL staffer?