Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I also think Coconut Mall as an idea for a stage is a bit hampered by Alivel Mall, frankly lol

Every time Forgotten Land stage prospects for Kirby come up (since it's the new biggest hit and contributed immensely to Kirby's growth in the Switch era), Alivel Mall is typically the frontrunner, and then it becomes like "do we really need two shopping mall stages?" lol

Alivel Mall doesn't have anywhere near the same vibe as Coconut Mall to the point where I'd say one doesn't really scratch the itch that the other would, but it's infinitely easier to make a stage out of since you wouldn't have to stick so closely to the source material.

 

[cashregister9]

There is also a 3rd Mall stage option

Rainbow Galleria

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Alivel Mall doesn't have anywhere near the same vibe as Coconut Mall to the point where I'd say one doesn't really scratch the itch that the other would, but it's infinitely easier to make a stage out of since you wouldn't have to stick so closely to the source material.

I mean yeah, but having two brand new stages that both happen to be shopping malls would be pretty weird regardless I think lol

Either way I don't think it'd be the Mario Kart stage anyway (I'd expect something from the new Switch 2 game or 8), but for the sake of the hypothetical I just meant I wouldn't be surprised if that had a little bit to do with it only getting one mention.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Ya know, Bowser's Castle is definitely the more glaring omission, but we probably should have gotten an airship stage too. Mario Kart's fortress would be pretty cool.

Well, we do have Rainbow Cruise. Which is, technically, a Mario stage with an airship.

Just not the cool kind of airship.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

I mean that depends on if they keep making games after Emio, because frankly even with the remakes I didn't expect them to make another but then Nintendo said "okay but what if we made the first new Famicom Detective Club game in 27 years (35 if you don't count the Satellaview game)" lmao

Well, they revived Kid Icarus after 25 years(well, 'revived'- they made one game). So I guess they can make another Famicom detective club well after the lifespan of the Famicom.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Well, they revived Kid Icarus after 25 years(well, 'revived'- they made one game). So I guess they can make another Famicom detective club well after the lifespan of the Famicom.

I mean they did, that's what Emio: The Smiling Man did since it came out last year.

No idea how well it did sales wise, no figures as far as I can see so I doubt it hit a million, but since it's a visual novel, I would imagine it didn't need to make a ton to make a return on its investment, so it may have done well enough for them to make more is mostly what I mean lol

 

[smashkirby]

I feel like a third party surprise is somewhat hard to garner unless it’s something ridiculous like Tetris Block or Daytona car. Which sure, we could do something like that, but I think there’s some charm in keeping this kind of thing for Nintendo’s own oddities.

Personally I think something like Excitebiker works, despite having a fair bit of notoriety and discussion. My reasoning is that Excitebike doesn’t really have any “characters” perse, just an unnamed guy on a bike duplicated a dozen times over, and the concept of making a moveset around someone on a bike is super abstract and unexpected to the average person. Similarly to Duck Hunt we’re just the kind of people crazy enough to humor it, because we talk about everything and anything. But I understand the grey area in determining if a choice like this is closer to Ice Climbers or Duck Hunt.

Yeah, I imagine 3rd parties getting 'surprise' characters wouldn't be "financially sound" of an idea, would it? Don't get me wrong, if we did get Daytona USA's Hornet or a Tetris Block, I'd welcome the idea, but clearly there's a bigger risk to such a thing.

Also, as someone more attached to Nintendo's characters? I'd rather not have 3rd parties take such an aspect away from them. ESPECIALLY with how many options Nintendo has on this front.

If I were to define what a "surprise character" is, it would simply be someone that the general audience would never EVER expect to see a moveset made for. And that kind of definition does match with most of the people who are or presumed to be the surprise characters of their games.

• Outside of very specific games like Donkey Kong, the Game & Watch games do not have any predefined character so the idea of some kind of conglomerate who references various games came completely out of left field. In a way, Mr. Game & Watch is effectively a Smash OC.
• R.O.B. is a NES peripheral. The idea of him getting a fully realized moveset was not something anyone expected.
• Duck Hunt was explicitly stated to be a surprise character and, well, the concept behind everything is certainly wacky and unpredictable. You play as the dog and a duck in cooperation, something that never happens in Duck Hunt, and there's also the invisible NES Zapper hunter as well as references to both Hoogan's Alley and Wild Gunman. Even for those who expected Duck Hunt Dog, I doubt the idea of being the representative of multiple Zapper games or the duck coming along for the ride as a friend were expected.
• Piranha Plant needs no description.

Wii Fit Trainer isn't confirmed to be a surprise character nor is she confirmed to be the opposite, but a moveset themed entirely around the exercise drills she'd make you do is very inspired and creative either way. I personally see her more as a representative of the Wii series, being one of the few actual characters from it who isn't just a Mii, since new franchises tend to get some spots in Smash rosters since Brawl. Being surprising was not the intent.

Ngl, I sort of thought Sakurai himself legit described 'surprise characters' in Smash in this regard. Genuinely asking here, has he not done that?

I think it was partial to "Everyone is Here" that people see characters that became AT, spirits and/or Mii Costumes are considered the best shot one could ask for. In return, left no room for potential. Though, that chance may return as soon another smash bros game is teased. All it needs is a proper spark to ignite the flame once more.....

Just so you know, I watched the video you posted, and man... there's something almost magical about Ultimate's teaser 7 years ago. Even more so when you watch the reactions.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

I mean they did, that's what Emio: The Smiling Man did since it came out last year.

No idea how well it did sales wise, no figures as far as I can see so I doubt it hit a million, but since it's a visual novel, I would imagine it didn't need to make a ton to make a return on its investment, so it may have done well enough for them to make more is mostly what I mean lol

Huh... I genuinely did not know that Emio was an FDC game. That's on me. I guess it's a matter of how willing the developer is to continue making the games then. As long as Emio didn't bomb, then like you said, VNs aren't resource intensive, so they could be willing to make more.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Huh... I genuinely did not know that Emio was an FDC game. That's on me. I guess it's a matter of how willing the developer is to continue making the games then. As long as Emio didn't bomb, then like you said, VNs aren't resource intensive, so they could be willing to make more.

Fair, suddenly seeing FDC get a new game after 27 years and them promoting it initially like they did, I wouldn't have thought so either if I hadn't kept an eye on it to figure out what the heck Emio was all about and then imagine my shock when I was eventually like "wait, that's FAMICOM DETECTIVE CLUB???" lmao

Being willing is kind of a weird area to think about though because it was made by Nintendo EPD and Mages, so I guess it depends on how willing Nintendo is to be weird/off the beaten path, which I'm hoping the Switch's huge success will encourage like it has in the Switch's last couple of years lol

 

[SharkLord]

I dunno about Z-axis jank, I just think making OoT/TP/SS Link playable as alts is dumb because from the distance Smash is played at it'd be three alts (OUT OF LINK'S EIGHT COSTUMES, MIND) that basically look exactly the same unless you're telling me each alt is going to be completely stylistically different from each other because Link's design basically doesn't change for like any of those three.

It'd be like my issue with the pink hair Bowser alt that basically just changes his saturation but like 20 times over.

Yet another reason fighters should be allowed multiple sets of alts like with Wario and Little Mac in 4. Might take some extra work, though; SSBU's DLC was handled by a skeleton team, so if (which is still an if, mind you) Smash 6's DLC has a bigger team, maybe they'd have more hands to work on alternate sets of fighters? Just spitballing here.

Fair, suddenly seeing FDC get a new game after 27 years and them promoting it initially like they did, I wouldn't have thought so either if I hadn't kept an eye on it to figure out what the heck Emio was all about and then imagine my shock when I was eventually like "wait, that's FAMICOM DETECTIVE CLUB???" lmao

Being willing is kind of a weird area to think about though because it was made by Nintendo EPD and and Mages, so I guess it depends on how willing Nintendo is to be weird/off the beaten path, which I'm hoping the Switch's huge success will encourage like it has in the Switch's last couple of years lol

Man, I remember people latching onto this mysterious "Emio" guy for the novelty of being a slasher villain and a possible horror character from Nintendo, which was a big departure from the usual image. Even after it turned out to be FDC of all things, I still saw Emio's name passed around occasionally as an alternative to Ayumi, under the pitch of "ooh serial killer." Nevermind that his debut game wasn't even out yet.

Then again, we were discussing Raven Beak before he was even named, and we just had to call him "Big Bird." So I guess that's just what Smashers do

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Man, I remember people latching onto this mysterious "Emio" guy for the novelty of being a slasher villain and a possible horror character from Nintendo, which was a big departure from the usual image. Even after it turned out to be FDC of all things, I still saw Emio's name passed around occasionally as an alternative to Ayumi, under the pitch of "ooh serial killer." Nevermind that his debut game wasn't even out yet.

Then again, we were discussing Raven Beak before he was even named, and we just had to call him "Big Bird." So I guess that's just what Smashers do

I do think if Ayumi shows up, Emio could be an easy Assist Trophy for the new playable franchise in town. Otherwise, I could see Emio be a collectible, since he's from a newer release that revived a long gone franchise. I feel like collectible is super likely, AT less so but still a possibility.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I also think Coconut Mall as an idea for a stage is a bit hampered by Alivel Mall, frankly lol

Every time Forgotten Land stage prospects for Kirby come up (since it's the new biggest hit and contributed immensely to Kirby's growth in the Switch era), Alivel Mall is typically the frontrunner, and then it becomes like "do we really need two shopping mall stages?" lol

Given who's directing the games, Alivel Mall ain't happening anyway

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Given who's directing the games, Alivel Mall ain't happening anyway

At least Kirby and King Dedede’s Final Smashes aren’t from a Sakurai directed game.

 

[Gengar84]

I’d love to see more stages take direct inspiration from an actual location in their home series. I’d love a Hornet Hole stage from DKC 2 where the layout is actually based on the stage in the game for example. I was never a huge fan of a lot of DKC’s Smash stages that were nondescript jungles or stages like Hollow Bastion where you fight on a floating Battlefield platform in front of the actual interesting stage in the background.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I also think Coconut Mall as an idea for a stage is a bit hampered by Alivel Mall, frankly lol

Every time Forgotten Land stage prospects for Kirby come up (since it's the new biggest hit and contributed immensely to Kirby's growth in the Switch era), Alivel Mall is typically the frontrunner, and then it becomes like "do we really need two shopping mall stages?" lol

Honestly, I don't think Forgotten Land necessarily needs to be at the forefront of the next Smash's inclusion process. In fact, if Forgotten Land becomes the next hot thing in Smash without any other alterations to Kirby's Smash representation, that's going to disappoint me.

And even then, Wondaria Remains is right there in terms of original FL stages. Kirby's already indulged in mall levels beforehand.

 

[Gengar84]

I don’t think it’s going to happen and I seem to be the only one that wants this but I think Fecto Elfilis could make for a really cool Smash character. It’s very different aesthetically from most Kirby characters. It resembles Mewtwo more than the more common round Kirby cast. It also has a lot of cool abilities that could make for a really fun moveset. I think it would be a fun way to reference the modern games with an exciting character. I love the Kirby games but Bandana Dee never particularly interested me as a character even if it’s the most logical choice for the next Smash fighter.

 

[fogbadge]

stages like Hollow Bastion where you fight on a floating Battlefield platform in front of the actual interesting stage in the background.

Yeah I don’t like them either

 

[BuckleyTim]

I've said it before but it's peculiar that smash dlc introduced all these "safe for competent 1v1s" stage design while also making sure every other character would dominate the balance to the point that I'm sure infinitely more hardcore comp players were pushed away due to these packs then were ever kept onboard due to having more legal stages.

Remember when Joker was considered the problem character, mainly due to MKLeo being that good with him? It feels like we didn't know how good we had it...

 

[Gengar84]

I've said it before but it's peculiar that smash dlc introduced all these "safe for competent 1v1s" stage design while also making sure every other character would dominate the balance to the point that I'm sure infinitely more hardcore comp players were pushed away due to these packs then were ever kept onboard due to having more legal stages.

Remember when Joker was considered the problem character, mainly due to MKLeo being that good with him? It feels like we didn't know how good we had it...

I thought that was the whole point of the Omega and Battlefield stage variants. Why be so safe and boring with the main stages when we already have more competitive versions for each of them? You don’t have to get as crazy with gimmicks like many of Smash 4’s stages but at least make fun and unique platform layouts that represent the stage they’re inspired by.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I’d love to see more stages take direct inspiration from an actual location in their home series. I’d love a Hornet Hole stage from DKC 2 where the layout is actually based on the stage in the game for example. I was never a huge fan of a lot of DKC’s Smash stages that were nondescript jungles or stages like Hollow Bastion where you fight on a floating Battlefield platform in front of the actual interesting stage in the background.

Its weird how all four Square Enix stages are exactly that

 

[Gengar84]

Its weird how all four Square Enix stages are exactly that

Yeah, I wish the platform layouts were more interesting for the Square-Enix stages. I honestly think a reskin of Umbral Clock Tower for Northern Crater would have been more interesting that the one we got. At least Bayonetta’s stage had some dynamic platforms.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Its weird how all four Square Enix stages are exactly that

At least Midgar has the cool Summons mechanic.

 

[BrawlX10]

Speaking of Kirby....i feel like we could get a stage from Dream Buffet as well: we do get some unexpected stages sometimes, so why not?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Yeah, I wish the platform layouts were more interesting for the Square-Enix stages. I honestly think a reskin of Umbral Clock Tower for Northern Crater would have been more interesting that the one we got. At least Bayonetta’s stage had some dynamic platforms.

Would have been sick if the bit in northern cave that recreates the climax of FF7 would have been a stage hazzard of some kind or if Hollow bastion had some heartless jump on the stage to inconvenience the players

 

[fogbadge]

Speaking of stages I hope we get some better Animal Crossing stages. Now I do enjoy the stages we have but we have three and two of them are practically the same stage. Let’s fight on Tom Nook’s Store or a version of the Museum styled like Luigi’s Mansion

 

[Wonder Smash]

I quiet like how they put the Valor and Wisdom forms as alts for Sora in smash as a small wink and nod to Donald and Goofy since to use those forms in game he has to fuse with the two of them temporarily, so it implies they are in smash alongside sora but in "spirit"

In that case, maybe Sora could be Mickey, Donald, and Goofy.

You know, I also look at how Sora is a Disney character and then I look at how Crash is a Looney Tunes-inspired character, with Looney Tunes being made by Warner Bros. Which is funny because I can't help but think that Crash could be the Sora of the next Smash game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I've said it before but it's peculiar that smash dlc introduced all these "safe for competent 1v1s" stage design while also making sure every other character would dominate the balance to the point that I'm sure infinitely more hardcore comp players were pushed away due to these packs then were ever kept onboard due to having more legal stages.

If anything both sides of the Smash community lose, those stages are too boring for casuals but still have stuff that gets them banned in tournaments.

I thought that was the whole point of the Omega and Battlefield stage variants. Why be so safe and boring with the main stages when we already have more competitive versions for each of them? You don’t have to get as crazy with gimmicks like many of Smash 4’s stages but at least make fun and unique platform layouts that represent the stage they’re inspired by.

To be fair competitive players don't play on BF/Omega forms, they'd rather play on not only the original BF/FD, but also stages like Town and City, hazardless Pokemon Stadium and Kalos League, and before SSBU's competitive scene got a little too ban-crazy like it was infiltrated by people who legitimately believe competitive players hate every stage, stages like Fountain of Dreams, Lylat Cruise, Brawl Yoshi's Island, and hazardless WarioWare (in PM at least) were considered okay.

 

[fogbadge]

In that case, maybe Sora could be Mickey, Donald, and Goofy.

You know, I also look at how Sora is a Disney character and then I look at how Crash is a Looney Tunes-inspired character, with Looney Tunes being made by Warner Bros. I can't help but think that Crash could be the Sora of the next Smash game.

and I was just saying that the reasons were getting absurd

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I’d love to see more stages take direct inspiration from an actual location in their home series. I’d love a Hornet Hole stage from DKC 2 where the layout is actually based on the stage in the game for example. I was never a huge fan of a lot of DKC’s Smash stages that were nondescript jungles or stages like Hollow Bastion where you fight on a floating Battlefield platform in front of the actual interesting stage in the background.

Stages tend not to do this because the ones that do can get kinda...

• Bridge of Eldin
• 75m
• PAC-LAND

A lot of them keep interest going by being traveling stages, and that might be where the "multiple weaker layouts" criticism comes from. Stages usually take heavy inspiration from their counterparts though. Rumble Falls and Jungle Hijinx are both very stylistically based on Donkey Kong Jungle Beat and Donkey Kong Country Returns. The former is a mashup of two different stages, and the latter is based on the look of World 1.

I've said it before but it's peculiar that smash dlc introduced all these "safe for competent 1v1s" stage design while also making sure every other character would dominate the balance to the point that I'm sure infinitely more hardcore comp players were pushed away due to these packs then were ever kept onboard due to having more legal stages.

Remember when Joker was considered the problem character, mainly due to MKLeo being that good with him? It feels like we didn't know how good we had it...

I don't think he characters were made to overturn competitive so much as they were meant to turn heads mechanically. Even so, Piranha Plant is terrible, Hero, Banjo & Kazooie, and Sora are high skill floor mid tier at best characters, Terry isn't nearly as dominant as Ryu was in SSB4, Byleth is just a normal character, and Sephiroth has glaring flaws that make him super exploitable.

Joker was really the only problem child of the first pass, and that was rectified. Pyra/Mythra were just a tad overtuned, and would probably be less dominant with patches. Kazuya would likely have gotten a fix for Electric Wind God Fist 0-deaths as well. Really it's just Min Min and Steve that are inherently disruptive just by being good and having the playstyle that they do.

 

[Gengar84]

If anything both sides of the Smash community lose, those stages are too boring for casuals but still have stuff that gets them banned in tournaments.

To be fair competitive players don't play on BF/Omega forms, they'd rather play on not only the original BF/FD, but also stages like Town and City, hazardless Pokemon Stadium and Kalos League, and before SSBU's competitive scene got a little too ban-crazy like it was infiltrated by people who legitimately believe competitive players hate every stage, stages like Fountain of Dreams, Lylat Cruise, Brawl Yoshi's Island, and hazardless WarioWare (in PM at least) were considered okay.

In that case, that saves a lot of work for future Smash games. Why continue to make these variant stages if they’re not even serving their intended purpose?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In that case, that saves a lot of work for future Smash games. Why continue to make these variant stages if they’re not even serving their intended purpose?

IIRC they're not used because 1, copyright, and 2, a lot of them aren't the same as Battlefield/Final Destination. Many of the stages don't feature screen or star K.O.s, and the 2D stages change certain hitboxes because there's no z-axis.

 

[Dukefire]

Whatever idea couldn't make it into Smash Bros due to time constraints, they might save it for the next one.
K.O Assist Trophies, Final Smash Meter, Mid air charging specials, and the killing blow zoom effect didn't appear until Ultimate.

 

[Wonder Smash]

and I was just saying that the reasons were getting absurd

What do you mean?

 

[Perkilator]

With all this talk about stages, allow me to reiterate that the next Smash should allow more stage form options, like in NASB 2.

• Δ Stages (Battlefield’s triangle platform layout)
• β Stages (Small Battlefield & hazards-off Pokémon Stadium 2’s double platform layout)
• α Stages (Smashville’s moving platform layout)
• Ω Stages (Final Destination’s clean layout with no platforms)

That way, the normal stages can be entirely designed for casual play, and the alternate forms can be used for competitive play.

 

[Dukefire]

With all this talk about stages, allow me to reiterate that the next Smash should allow more stage form options, like in NASB 2.

• Δ Stages (Battlefield’s triangle platform layout)
• β Stages (Small Battlefield & hazards-off Pokémon Stadium 2’s double platform layout)
• α Stages (Smashville’s moving platform layout)
• Ω Stages (Final Destination’s clean layout with no platforms)

That way, the normal stages can be entirely designed for casual play, and the alternate forms can be used for competitive play.

That's a good way for both sides to find a compromise. I go online to fight with the occasional final smash ball active, only to sometimes fight on a big stage and items on. It is annoying and throws me off.

 

[Gengar84]

With all this talk about stages, allow me to reiterate that the next Smash should allow more stage form options, like in NASB 2.

• Δ Stages (Battlefield’s triangle platform layout)
• β Stages (Small Battlefield & hazards-off Pokémon Stadium 2’s double platform layout)
• α Stages (Smashville’s moving platform layout)
• Ω Stages (Final Destination’s clean layout with no platforms)

That way, the normal stages can be entirely designed for casual play, and the alternate forms can be used for competitive play.

I’m all for this depending on just how much work it is to make those variant stages. If they’re relatively quick and easy to create, I don’t really see much downside in more options. However, if they still take a ton of resources, I’d personally rather see more unique stages. I’m a purely casual player so I almost never play on the Battlefield or Omega stage variants. The fact that these variant stages aren’t even used competitively is making me question whether it’s worth all the effort.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The variants don't really give players more options though; it just lets them pick a background. You'll still need a bunch of 1v1 stages for variety. I will say that they probably should get more creative than just doing Battlefield, Pokémon Stadium, and Smashville again. I mean, just look at both Rivals of Aether's stage lists. They get creative while still being competitive.

Looking at the DLC stagelist though, I don't think most of them were for competitive players though:

• Mementos is huge, and hazards make it absolutely bonkers.
• Spiral Mountain has walkoffs and a lip you can camp on at times.
• King of Fighters Stadium is meant to replicate a traditional fighting game stage.
• Garreg Mach Monastery is three flat walk-off stages in a trench coat.
• Minecraft World is covered in blocks.
• Mishima Dojo is a box that sometimes has jank collisions.

I do think they were trying not to have controvercial stages, so they might have been less experimental, but they're not really 1v1 focused as a whole.

 

[fogbadge]

What do you mean?

well saying crash will be the sora of next time around cause he based on the looney tunes is a little absurd

though I suppose you were joking

 

[BuckleyTim]

It's been said before but a serious tournament needs standardization, and since the random omega/battlefield forms aren't actually 100% standardized and then throw in the possibility of playing copyrighted music in there... Then unless you go through a tedious per-setup filtering of the stages it's not gonna work out. Smash certainly throws a bone here, but also it lacks the tools/polish necessary to make it viable for smash tourneys.

I don't think asking for more platform layouts is too much, since replicating pokemon stadium 2 in particular feels like partially a matter of just... Removing the top platform on battlefield.

Also for casual 1v1s the option is very much appreciated anyways, online or otherwise.

It's also just nice to have normalized layouts to get the most out of each stage. It feels like I wouldn't hear nearly as much of the music that each single-stage series gets if I didn't have omega/battlefield on to keep them in rotation.

 

[Wonder Smash]

well saying crash will be the sora of next time around cause he based on the looney tunes is a little absurd

though I suppose you were joking

Umm...did you read that right? Where did I say that?