R.I.P. Bowsercide

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Remember: we'll still get the win in tournaments.

I'm not so sure about this tbh. Like I'm aware of the rule and how tournaments decide these things, but I thought that the rule was brought in, at least for the most part, as a way of avoiding sudden death situations deciding the match, much like percentage wins work when the timer runs out and both players have equal stocks. But now that the game has made a definitive stand on who will always win in a player v player scenario and the sudden death situation is no longer a factor, I can't help but think that people will lean towards saying that while it is a shame for Bowser and it doesn't make sense, the game was made this way, these are the rules, let the game decide.
I realise that I'm bringing this up on the Bowser boards and I may be opening myself up to reactionary posts, but in all seriousness, I think that this is a very possible outcome.

 

[TheGreatBrawler]

Weird that it works for me on the 3DS, maybe going to be changed in the patch coming for 3DS, it isn't THAT big of a problem anyways.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Weird that it works for me on the 3DS, maybe going to be changed in the patch coming for 3DS, it isn't THAT big of a problem anyways.

Main issue is the Wii U version works differently from the 3DS version. And the 3DS is getting the Wii U version once the patch hits.

 

[TheGreatBrawler]

Main issue is the Wii U version works differently from the 3DS version. And the 3DS is getting the Wii U version once the patch hits.

Yeah I can see how that's an unfair difference, that is the only part that confuses me really.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

In situations where down B wouldn't kill them anyway, Klaw is a completely valid option just for the fact that you only need it to connect once for full damage, and it can be used for positioning. Getting the opponent to the edge or offstage is generally better than doing more damage, especially if it's only a 6% difference, you can easily make that up with pretty much anything else. the less you're using the bomb, the more likely your opponent won't be thinking about it when it matters. It also helps when you're not using bomb all the time because your opponent is less likely to be thinking about it that one time when you actually need it for the kill or the shield break.

Against Sheik, using the grounded bomb at max range or kissing range almost guarantees her escape. I've missed the second hit more times than I can count because of the clutch hitstun shuffle. Luckily, the punishment is minimal since the hitstun from the initial hitbox is pretty ridiculous. I've also had this happen against Palutena.

 

[Jerodak]

Against Sheik, using the grounded bomb at max range or kissing range almost guarantees her escape. I've missed the second hit more times than can count because of the clutch hitstun shuffle.

^
Yup, this is why it's important to be careful with the bomb, it's still great though.

 

[S_B]

I'm not so sure about this tbh. Like I'm aware of the rule and how tournaments decide these things, but I thought that the rule was brought in, at least for the most part, as a way of avoiding sudden death situations deciding the match, much like percentage wins work when the timer runs out and both players have equal stocks. But now that the game has made a definitive stand on who will always win in a player v player scenario and the sudden death situation is no longer a factor, I can't help but think that people will lean towards saying that while it is a shame for Bowser and it doesn't make sense, the game was made this way, these are the rules, let the game decide.
I realise that I'm bringing this up on the Bowser boards and I may be opening myself up to reactionary posts, but in all seriousness, I think that this is a very possible outcome.

No, I quite agree.

I too feel that the player who initiated the move (aka Bowser) should get the win, but the grim truth is that Brawl tournaments have put up with worse BS in the name of "that's the way the game was made"...

I also need to add that, although I'm miffed at this nerf, I'm still glad they're releasing balance patches instead of leaving us to discover all the game breaking glitches like in Brawl...

 

[Jerodak]

So I just tested this out in training mode, no only can Bowser not jump out of Bowsercides anymore, but it actually kills him first. It seems like a bit much but maybe the match will still be ruled in our favor if we bowsercide someone at last stock? Hard to tell since he definately dies first and the other player can jump out of it.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

So I just tested this out in training mode, no only can Bowser not jump out of Bowsercides anymore, but it actually kills him first. It seems like a bit much but maybe the match will still be ruled in our favor if we bowsercide someone at last stock? Hard to tell since he definately dies first and the other player can jump out of it.

If the other player can jump out of it after we kick the bucket, it's not a bowsercide, lol. At least against most of the cast, since they can recover with just their jump + up b. I enjoyed off-stage klaw while I could, so I have no regrets.

 

[Hitman JT]

I'm not so sure about this tbh. Like I'm aware of the rule and how tournaments decide these things, but I thought that the rule was brought in, at least for the most part, as a way of avoiding sudden death situations deciding the match, much like percentage wins work when the timer runs out and both players have equal stocks. But now that the game has made a definitive stand on who will always win in a player v player scenario and the sudden death situation is no longer a factor, I can't help but think that people will lean towards saying that while it is a shame for Bowser and it doesn't make sense, the game was made this way, these are the rules, let the game decide.
I realise that I'm bringing this up on the Bowser boards and I may be opening myself up to reactionary posts, but in all seriousness, I think that this is a very possible outcome.

It is BEYOND STUPID that we can now be punished and potentially LOSE THE MATCH all because the opponent screwed up and left themselves open to get grabbed. If they do balance it out by giving the opponent less control over it, then I might be somewhat not really fine with it. But it's still stupid.

 

[EarthenPillar]

This is official in 1.0.4 now. Bowser dies first.

 

[Jerodak]

If the other player can jump out of it after we kick the bucket, it's not a bowsercide, lol. At least against most of the cast, since they can recover with just their jump + up b. I enjoyed off-stage klaw while I could, so I have no regrets.

I don't really so much mind the loss of bowsercides as much as how the patch "resolves" the perceived issue.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Klaw lag cancel still in. Klaw killed ZSS at 145% (126), low % rage, so no noticeable KB nerf. I can sleep peacefully.

 

[MagiusNecros]

We can still do our Air cancel to specials so at least we have that. This Bowsercide stuff is just dumb though especially since Bowser is on top of the opponent.

 

[Ranias]

I hate what they did with Bowsercide as well.

I guess that Nintendo implemented this because too many newbies were complaining about losing to it. Maybe it should be like a mandatory hint when fighting Bowser that you can control where the Bowsercide goes according to percentage.

But regardless, last stock Bowsercides in tournaments should count as a win, right?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I hate what they did with Bowsercide as well.

I guess that Nintendo implemented this because too many newbies were complaining about losing to it. Maybe it should be like a mandatory hint when fighting Bowser that you can control where the Bowsercide goes according to percentage.

But regardless, last stock Bowsercides in tournaments should count as a win, right?

If both opponents have one stock left, the initiator of the suicide move always wins, no matter how the game decides who wins, so it shouldn't change anything for tournaments.

 

[Kinslayer]

If both opponents have one stock left, the initiator of the suicide move always wins, no matter how the game decides who wins, so it shouldn't change anything for tournaments.

I never heard that

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I wonder how long it will take for people to complain about other aspects of Bowser, like his ability to KO at ridiculously low percentages. I have killed opponents as low as 55% (25% before fully charged Forward Smash connected, with rage mode in effect). It's not hard to imagine how my opponents feel when I kill them at low percentages and they have been using me as a punching bag for 75% of the match.

EDIT: This just in from http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/11/super_smash_bros_for_nintendo_3ds_update_104_now_live

Suicide moves now make the user die first instead of the victim, though Ganondorf isn't affected by this.

GG Nintendo.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@ Ranias and @ The Stoopid Unikorn : Read my above post.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

@ Ranias and @ The Stoopid Unikorn : Read my above post.

While rare due to a relatively limited character pool, sacrificial KOs have their own rule within tournaments: If both the victim and initiator are KOed on their last stock because of a sacrificial KO, the results screen is ignored and the initiator is deemed the winner.

Look it up!

 

[_Magus_]

I wonder how long it will take for people to complain about other aspects of Bowser, like his ability to KO at ridiculously low percentages. I have killed opponents as low as 55% (25% before fully charged Forward Smash connected, with rage mode in effect). It's not hard to imagine how my opponents feel when I kill them at low percentages and they have been using me as a punching bag for 75% of the match.

EDIT: This just in from http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/11/super_smash_bros_for_nintendo_3ds_update_104_now_live



GG Nintendo.

Praise the Dorf for he is good, his Ganocide is everlasting!

 

[Hitman JT]

Look it up!

With the way Bowsercides work now, I totally expect someone out there to be a scumbag and lie about their "win" if there are no spectators around.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Look it up!

As I said, I'm well aware of the rule. My point is that the reasons for that rule are gone now, and so it should follow that the rule will go too. The rule makers aren't fans of making arbitrary rules, and continuing to say that the one initiating the suicide is given the victory regardless of what the result screen says is now an arbitrary rule. There are no sudden deaths, no decisions being made by port priority or anything like that. The game developers have decided and specifically programmed it so that there will be an outcome that always occurs. All I'm saying is I wouldn't be surprised at all if that rule was scrapped.

 

[Z1GMA]

It was never even close to as good as Ganonciding, anyway ~

 

[TTTTTsd]

Actually Ganoncides in Brawl used to be port priority or something right? To the point of where Ganon would die first? Didn't that still count as a win for Ganondorf? In tournaments I mean

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Actually Ganoncides in Brawl used to be port priority or something right? To the point of where Ganon would die first? Didn't that still count as a win for Ganondorf? In tournaments I mean

So was Bowsercide.....

As I said, I'm well aware of the rule. My point is that the reasons for that rule are gone now, and so it should follow that the rule will go too. The rule makers aren't fans of making arbitrary rules, and continuing to say that the one initiating the suicide is given the victory regardless of what the result screen says is now an arbitrary rule. There are no sudden deaths, no decisions being made by port priority or anything like that. The game developers have decided and specifically programmed it so that there will be an outcome that always occurs. All I'm saying is I wouldn't be surprised at all if that rule was scrapped.

But TOs might still give the win to Bowser, since he's technically the one of top of the opponent

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So was Bowsercide.....

But TOs might still give the win to Bowser, since he's technically the one of top of the opponent

Some might, but it would be arbitrarily enforcing a rule where one isn't needed any more. And that's the point; it isn't needed for certainty or universal application because we have that now. When it really comes down to it, so what if Bowser is on top during the animation? How would you decide it with a Kirbycide on that logic? Why are we even asking these questions when the game developers have decided for us? TO's have always generally followed the accepted rules, and what is accepted is always subject to change.

 

[Shin Bowser Meow]

Some might, but it would be arbitrarily enforcing a rule where one isn't needed any more. And that's the point; it isn't needed for certainty or universal application because we have that now. When it really comes down to it, so what if Bowser is on top during the animation? How would you decide it with a Kirbycide on that logic? Why are we even asking these questions when the game developers have decided for us? TO's have always generally followed the accepted rules, and what is accepted is always subject to change.

You lost me on "Why are we even asking these questions when the game developers have decided for us?" Games Devs are not all knowing creatives of divine creation AND all games smash are not created for the tournament crowd. Just because the Games Devs make a decision does not mean we have to accept it. I agree that what is accepted as a rule is always subject to change. The question would be why change it and is it a needed change.

My only issue with this is while it may be a crap option with many drawbacks, (huge lag when whiffed unless landing, opponent can influence Bowser heavily depending on percentage) it is still an option that has been taken away. No. It has not been taken away, but changed so its a liability in a losing/equal stock situation for the Bowser.

 

[-Kagato-]

Bowsercide was supposed to give Bowser the win in brawl, but port priority ****ed it up.

They fix it for Smash 4, but they decided to now punish bowser players and completely make the move unsafe to use on the last stock since the opponent can control it and basically kill you with your own move.

Flying Slam is still a fantastic kill move, especially as an enraged Bowser, but can't do it near the ledge anymore or you might as well say game over. Opponent just flicks his stick left/right off the side and WHOOPSIE! Bowser loses lololol.

The only way I'd ever accept a Bowsercide nerf is if it forces sudden death. This just makes it impossible to declare Bowser the winner in tournaments since the game declares the opponent the winner, unless tournaments decide to ignore what the game says.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The only way I'd ever accept a Bowsercide nerf is if it forces sudden death. This just makes it impossible to declare Bowser the winner in tournaments since the game declares the opponent the winner, unless tournaments decide to ignore what the game says.

Most TOs never cares about what the game says, so there's a chance

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Thing is, the opponent won't die. Lucario already recovers after I die as long as he has his second jump. I've tested it out. Anyone with recovery close to Lucario's will make it back on the omega. The official ruling supports the fact that it is no longer effective and that it's our loss so long as they recover back on to stage like that.

Dash Klaw, however, still forces the opponent to die with us. That's still our win if custom moves are allowed at the venue.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Actually characters like Meta Knight and Dedede can survive a Bowsercide without a scratch now due to multiple jumps plus recovery. Yeah. Insult to injury right there. I've achieved this in Training so it is definitely possible.

 

[Loki]

Just leaving this here...

http://fat.gfycat.com/RectangularFlusteredHummingbird.webm
Add sad violin for more powerful effect.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Just leaving this here...

http://fat.gfycat.com/RectangularFlusteredHummingbird.webm
Add sad violin for more powerful effect.

Nah, we're not really that salty. The side b still has KO power, still auto cancels, and the whole animation is immune to wind boxes or suction (like Sheik's grenades). Yeah, they nerfed our fsmash so it's less powerful than DDD and Ganon's checked it in friendlies and it deals 1% MORE damage (happy day), but we don't use that for KOs, just swag and FFA. Our real KO move, the bomb, hasn't been touched. It's all good in the hood.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Yeah, they nerfed our fsmash so it's less powerful than DDD and Ganon's

Can't tell if you're being facetious, but I read that F-smash is untouched in the new patch.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Can't tell if you're being facetious, but I read that F-smash is untouched in the new patch.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2mncc1/smash_4_update_14_changes/

Just for reference. It's Tainic's post just below the first one. Guy didn't do his homework afterall.

Compare uncharged 24% with the unupdated 23%, as found currently on http://www.ssbwiki.com/Bowser_(SSB4)

Of course, the wiki should update soon. Hopefully.

 

[-Kagato-]

I just Bowserfcided on the last stock on For Glory and it led to a Sudden Death.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2mncc1/smash_4_update_14_changes/

Just for reference. It's Tainic's post just below the first one.

I found it just before I saw your reply. 2% less damage is not a big deal, as long as they keep the knockback of our F-smash.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Raiden mk-II Nope, it was my bad for not checking myself. I've updated my posts. We were both wrong.

 

[Hitman JT]

@ -Kagato- Against what character was it? I just saw a post where someone Bowsercided a Mario on their last stocks and it gave Mario the win.