R.I.P. Bowsercide

[MagiusNecros]

You probably won't learn much from that replay, other than how to sandbag in for glory, but I have been meaning to find a way to get my replays uploaded or something so I could share them. Once I get on that, I'll let you know.

I think learning what part of Bowser can be hit and still landing the kick is what is important.

 

[Jerodak]

I think learning what part of Bowser can be hit and still landing the kick is what is important.

Alright, well I could upload by phone if you don't mind crappy quality footage.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

Cheese Bowsercide comfirmed. Klawed an opponent. Steered me over the pit. I died first. Killed with my own move. Lost the match. Ridiculous.

 

[Ranias]

Cheese Bowsercide comfirmed. Klawed an opponent. Steered me over the pit. I died first. Killed with my own move. Lost the match. Ridiculous.

I'm just gonna use Dash Slash whenever possible.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Raiden mk-II Yup, it's good to test the limits. What was the percent lead?

 

[Raiden mk-II]

@ UltimaLuminaire I don't remember the exact percentages, but I was in the 130's range and my opponent was in the sub 50's range.

And doing Bowsercide with a stock lead still takes a stock from you, it counts as an opponent Self Destruct, and you do not get credit for the kill, but you still win. I confirmed this by doing this on four five straight opponents online.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

@ UltimaLuminaire I don't remember the exact percentages, but I was in the 130's range and my opponent was in the sub 50's range.

And doing Bowsercide with a stock lead still takes a stock from you, it counts as an opponent Self Destruct, and you do not get credit for the kill, but you still win. I confirmed this by doing this on four five straight opponents online.

I did the same with some friends people I know and yes, it is indeed an SD for the enemy.

 

[Anragon]

The title should have been "R.I.P Logic".

BUT on wii U Bowsercide is buggy as f*ck, my brother drag me offstage saying "haha you gonna die now" and then we both died but I had a 2 stock lead so he lost (he had Sheik so he could recover easily).

He made the best WTF face ever.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The title should have been "R.I.P Logic".

BUT on wii U Bowsercide is buggy as f*ck, my brother drag me offstage saying "haha you gonna die now" and then we both died but I had a 2 stock lead so he lost (he had Sheik so he could recover easily).

He made the best WTF face ever.

I don't think Smash matches ever had a lot of logic involved (except tournament matches, of course)

 

[S_B]

@-Kagato- Made a list of stages where Bowsercide kills both players at the same time and where it only kills Bowser.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

@-Kagato- Made a list of stages where Bowsercide kills both players at the same time and where it only kills Bowser.

Really? Would be nice to see it

 

[B!squick]

Really? Would be nice to see it

I examined all the Omega stages as well as any stage I think might become legal as a neutral or counterpick, and these are my findings:

*Note: Unlockable stages will be added as I unlock them

Normal Stage Sudden Death
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Custom Stages (wont be used, but thought it would be nice to know)

Normal Stage Bowser Dies First
Battlefield
Town and City
Skyloft
Halberd
Mushroom Kingdom U
Lylat
Town and City
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island

Omega Stage Sudden Death
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Mario Circuit
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Port Town Aero Drive
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Great Cave Offensive
Orbital Gate Assault
Mario Galaxy
Palutena's Temple
Skyworld
Garden of Hope
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plain
75m
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle

Omega Stage Bowser DIes First
Skyloft
Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinks
Hyrule Temple
Lylat Cruise
Kalos Pokemon League
Onett
Coliseum
Castle Seige
Gamer
Town and City
Boxing Ring
Windy Hill Zone

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Kagato's List of Bowsercid-able Stages

He forgot Bridge of Eldin, Big Battlefield, Mario Circuit 8, Luigi's Mansion, Gamer, Jungle Hijinx, 75 m, Temple, Pyrosphere, Norfair, Great Cave Offensive (it's really hard, but I don't think it's impossible), Orbital Gate Assault, Kalos Pokemon League, Port Town, Palutena's Temple (Bowser dies first on that one, I tried it while unlocking Dark Pit), Skyworld, Garden of Hope, Gaur Plain, Wrecking Crew, Windy Hill Zone, Omega Final Destination (may be different), Omega Big Battlefield, and the unlockables (although I can understand those one)

I know he did what he thinks would be tournament legal, but it would be nice to see it for all stages (especially since some of those could turn out to be legal).....

I'm gonna try it out tonight however.....

 

[B!squick]

"any stage I think might become legal as a neutral or counterpick"

As for the unlockables, he either hasn't unlocked them or they wont be legal either. There's only two unlockable stages anyway, I think. Pac Land and Duck Hunt. I think Pac Land has walk offs and Duck Hunt probably wont be legal either despite meeting the criteria for one (no walk offs, no transformations, no hazards). It'd be a great Bowser stage though, so I hope it's legal.

 

[Xcano]

Bowsercide... well, at least you can have your enemy go down with you, if you do it right.

 

[MagiusNecros]

@ Raiden mk-II Yup, it's good to test the limits. What was the percent lead?

I've tested this and percent leads with Bowsercide don't really matter. Only thing that matters is that the opponent being slammed being at least 5% under your percent still has great control. Maybe less control when over 100%. But if they are 5% under your percent then I reiterate they still have decent control of where you will go.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I've tested this and percent leads with Bowsercide don't really matter. Only thing that matters is that the opponent being slammed being at least 5% under your percent still has great control. Maybe less control when over 100%. But if they are 5% under your percent then I reiterate they still have decent control of where you will go.

The 5% lead only ever worked against me on an aerial klaw. Grounded Klaw seems to be okay until you go beyond 10%.

 

[Hitman JT]

I actually believe the Flying Man glitch is to blame. I just tested it out and it seems that the Flying Man now survives the Bowsercide and jumps back to the stage.

So they basically fixed the flying man glitch, but I believe the 'fix' caused a new glitch: EVERYONE surviving bowsercide. Or at least anyone with a good recovery.

But now this has me wondering if the same glitch occurred if Ganondorf used his aerial flame choke on a Flying Man. I imagine this would be significantly harder to test and would require someone who hasn't updated yet, but until then I'm not entirely convinced that the Flying Man glitch is the reason for the nerf

 

[MagiusNecros]

But now this has me wondering if the same glitch occurred if Ganondorf used his aerial flame choke on a Flying Man. I imagine this would be significantly harder to test and would require someone who hasn't updated yet, but until then I'm not entirely convinced that the Flying Man glitch is the reason for the nerf

Before the result was consistent but not anymore. and Ganny still gets stock advantage.

 

[Zigsta]

Had anyone talked with TOs in their region about the ruling for Bowsercides that result in sudden death? I raised it with the TO of the tournament I'm going to this Saturday, and he's made the rule that Bowser still loses (he didn't know about the sudden death scenario--NO ONE did--until I brought it up).

Please raise this issue to as many TOs as possible. A standard for this ruling needs to be in affect.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Had anyone talked with TOs in their region about the ruling for Bowsercides that result in sudden death? I raised it with the TO of the tournament I'm going to this Saturday, and he's made the rule that Bowser still loses (he didn't know about the sudden death scenario--NO ONE did--until I brought it up).

Please raise this issue to as many TOs as possible. A standard for this ruling needs to be in affect.

Okay....

If both the victim and initiator are KOed on their last stock because of a sacrificial KO, the result screen is ignored and the initiator is deemed the winner.

Isn't this how suicide KOs work in tournaments?

 

[Zigsta]

In Brawl, yes, that was the ruling.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

In Brawl, yes, that was the ruling.

Pretty sure the other Smash games have that rule too.

 

[Nekoo]

If both the victim and initiator are KOed on their last stock because of a sacrificial KO, the result screen is ignored and the initiator is deemed the winner.

I'm the only one who have a problem with this ? I mean ... Why we don't let the game decide the winner in the way he was created ? ( Being a studen in game design i found it very rude for the dev of the game , they create the game , it their own rules not your , like in Fifa you do a self-goal but you earn a normal goal , or in COD you do a bomb self destruc with your opponent but they die first and on One life match it will be not fair-play . It not work like that )

And for the Sudden Death scenario . just play it ?
It's not like you lose . It's a Sudden Death .

 

[S_B]

I'm the only one who have a problem with this ? I mean ... Why we don't let the game decide the winner in the way he was created ? ( Being a studen in game design i found it very rude for the dev of the game , they create the game , it their own rules not your , like in Fifa you do a self-goal but you earn a normal goal , or in COD you do a bomb self destruc with your opponent but they die first and on One life match it will be not fair-play . It not work like that )

And for the Sudden Death scenario . just play it ?
It's not like you lose . It's a Sudden Death .

The problem is that A) the game is bugged right now anyway and B) it's worked fine this way for years in competitive play.

Suicide KOs are extraordinarily difficult to pull off in most circumstances. If Bowser pulls off a successful suicide KO, it's because he had THAT much more damage done to his opponent AND managed to pull off the klaw close enough to a ledge that he could maneuver them over it. Ganondorf is even more difficult to pull off.

And characters like Kirby and D3 can pull off NEAR suicide KOs and actually live because they can drop their victim near the bottom of the screen and then recover.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Had anyone talked with TOs in their region about the ruling for Bowsercides that result in sudden death? I raised it with the TO of the tournament I'm going to this Saturday, and he's made the rule that Bowser still loses (he didn't know about the sudden death scenario--NO ONE did--until I brought it up).

Despite being informed of the sudden death scenario, he still ruled it against Bowser, eh?

 

[MagiusNecros]

If the tourney ruling was if both opponents are KO'd I guess the effect of Bowser dying first and then the opponent basically means Bowsercide is out.

 

[Jerodak]

( Being a studen in game design i found it very rude for the dev of the game , they create the game , it their own rules not your ,)

One of the key traits that defines a great game designer is the ability to not get too attached to any of their ideas, being able to accept that players aren't going to play exactly how you dictate is part of that. The design process does not end with the developers, the players also have a hand in shaping the experience. Competitive play and rulesets are just one way that players shape the experience.

 

[Omegascizor456]

I think that this was an obvious thing coming from at the begining of the 3DS games life cycle EVERYONE in for glory was bowserciding and though bowser is ok now he was much more of a threat on the 3DS game before the update...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Daddy Sakurai won't make anymore updates (unless clearly broken mechanics show up), so you guys better adapt to the fact that Bowsercide is no longer a useful tactic (except in tournaments where TOs never really care what the game thought of suicide KOs and gave the win to the move's user anyway)

 

[MagiusNecros]

Daddy Sakurai won't make anymore updates (unless clearly broken mechanics show up), so you guys better adapt to the fact that Bowsercide is no longer a useful tactic (except in tournaments where TOs never really care what the game thought of suicide KOs and gave the win to the move's user anyway)

That's okay. I can still disrespect opponents as Ganondorf. Ganoncide is so majestic.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Daddy Sakurai won't make anymore updates (unless clearly broken mechanics show up), so you guys better adapt to the fact that Bowsercide is no longer a useful tactic (except in tournaments where TOs never really care what the game thought of suicide KOs and gave the win to the move's user anyway)

We adapted long before the patch came out, since the Brawl era. Also, TOs are already starting to rule against Bowser, so you're not supposed to rely on it in a tournament set.

 

[S_B]

I think that this was an obvious thing coming from at the begining of the 3DS games life cycle EVERYONE in for glory was bowserciding and though bowser is ok now he was much more of a threat on the 3DS game before the update...

Anyone who allowed themselves to be Bowsercided deserved to be Bowsercided. Seriously, it's unbelievably easy to avoid.

Daddy Sakurai won't make anymore updates (unless clearly broken mechanics show up), so you guys better adapt to the fact that Bowsercide is no longer a useful tactic (except in tournaments where TOs never really care what the game thought of suicide KOs and gave the win to the move's user anyway)

Which means he won't be fixing the bug where Bowser dies first on some stages and where it goes to SD on other stages.

It's not that Bowsercide has been removed but that it's working inconsistently that's the issue.

I suspect that it's supposed to go to sudden death in all cases.

 

[KingKong_ad]

Can we put the stage list of bowsercides where there is a SD and when bowser dies first in a posted thread ? I don't want to search for it each time I will need it XD

 

[Zigsta]

@ J Jerodak , how about putting the list in the OP of your moveset thread?

 

[Hitman JT]

Here it is. The list is missing Duck Hunt, Pokemon Stadium 2, Kongo Jungle 64 and Smashville though, if someone could test those that'd be great

I examined all the Omega stages as well as any stage I think might become legal as a neutral or counterpick, and these are my findings:

*Note: Unlockable stages will be added as I unlock them

Normal Stage Sudden Death
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Custom Stages (wont be used, but thought it would be nice to know)

Normal Stage Bowser Dies First
Battlefield
Town and City
Skyloft
Halberd
Mushroom Kingdom U
Lylat
Town and City
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island

Omega Stage Sudden Death
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Mario Circuit
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Bridge of Eldin
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Port Town Aero Drive
Wooly World
Yoshi's Island
Great Cave Offensive
Orbital Gate Assault
Mario Galaxy
Palutena's Temple
Skyworld
Garden of Hope
Wii Fit Studio
Gaur Plain
75m
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle

Omega Stage Bowser DIes First
Skyloft
Battlefield
Mushroom Kingdom U
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinks
Hyrule Temple
Lylat Cruise
Kalos Pokemon League
Onett
Coliseum
Castle Seige
Gamer
Town and City
Boxing Ring
Windy Hill Zone

 

[Zigsta]

Not sure if everyone had read the Apex rules yet, but in the case of sudden death, the initiator wins.

REJOICE. Most tournaments typically adopt Apex rules, so we're in good shape.

 

[S_B]

Not sure if everyone had read the Apex rules yet, but in the case of sudden death, the initiator wins.

REJOICE. Most tournaments typically adopt Apex rules, so we're in good shape.

What happens if it's a stage where the opponent lives and Bowser dies, though?

 

[Dumbfire]

Unfortunately the largest tournament series here honors the game's verdict, and thus calls it a tie (to be solved with a one-stock match) in case of sudden death.

 

[Zigsta]

What happens if it's a stage where the opponent lives and Bowser dies, though?

Bowser loses.