Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

To those interested, Nintendo Life published the results of their own ballot in which their readers could have voted.

The results are:

Spoiler

• #10 - King K. Rool
• #09 - Simon Belmont
• #08 - Shantae
• #07 - Skull Kid
• #06 - Waluigi
• #05 - An ARMS fighter
• #04 - Bomberman
• #03 - Sora
• #02 - Shovel Knight
• #01 - Krystal and Inkling (tie)

 

[FunAtParties]

Well, we know transformations were removed because of it. Same with Olimar and the number of Pikmin.

Kirby's and Pit's special move changes don't seem to be inspired by limitations.

I doubt normals would be too intensive...

Maybe final smashes?

For sure DDD's Final Smash, I think it's reasonable to assume it's why Olimar has less Pikmin, and Diddy has less Bananas. I had a sneaking suspicion it had something to do with gliding disappearing (another change I liked) as well, but if that was the case Peach wouldn't glide either right?

To those interested, Nintendo Life published the results of their own ballot in which their readers could have voted.

The results are:

Spoiler

• #10 - King K. Rool
• #09 - Simon Belmont
• #08 - Shantae
• #07 - Skull Kid
• #06 - Waluigi
• #05 - An ARMS fighter
• #04 - Bomberman
• #03 - Sora
• #02 - Shovel Knight
• #01 - Krystal and Inkling (tie)

Those are some seriously interesting results. How Krystal remains this popular after all this time is beyond me, but I'm happy to see it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

For sure DDD's Final Smash, I think it's reasonable to assume it's why Olimar has less Pikmin, and Diddy has less Bananas. I had a sneaking suspicion it had something to do with gliding disappearing (another change I liked) as well, but if that was the case Peach wouldn't glide either right?

I believe the bananas are purely a balance change.

Diddy having two bananas was OP back in Brawl. Plus we can spawn more bananas can we not?


As for gliding? Same I think. Gliding itself isn't very intensive and Pit and Dark Pit both had files for it. It was probably a balance change since it was abused big time by Meta Knight in Brawl.

 

[FunAtParties]

I believe the bananas are purely a balance change.

Diddy having two bananas was OP back in Brawl. Plus we can spawn more bananas can we not?


As for gliding? Same I think. Gliding itself isn't very intensive and Pit and Dark Pit both had files for it. It was probably a balance change since it was abused big time by Meta Knight in Brawl.

True on both accounts. Gliding was kind of a faulty mechanic , I feel like footstools may see a similar fate in the future due to all the infinites that have appeared because of them.

I stand by Pikmins reduced numbers though. I read they were giving the 3DS problems as well as Luma, so I believe they both must have received changes of some sort.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

True on both accounts. Gliding was kind of a faulty mechanic , I feel like footstools may see a similar fate in the future due to all the infinites that have appeared because of them.

I stand by Pikmins reduced numbers though. I read they were giving the 3DS problems as well as Luma, so I believe they both must have received changes of some sort.

Footstools are fine. Everyone can do them, and they add a lot to the gameplay at large.

And I stated the Pikmin were reduced due to the 3DS.

 

[FunAtParties]

Footstools are fine. Everyone can do them, and they add a lot to the gameplay at large.

Some characters benefit much more from them though, not everyone gets infinites from them, plus they kind of unfairly destroy certain recoveries. Also phantom footstools are pretty janky. I like them in specific cases (those crazy Kameme Megaman footstool combos), but I think they cause more trouble than they're worth.

And I stated the Pikmin were reduced due to the 3DS.

I always miss something.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Footstools were useless in Brawl so they simply got buffed big time.
Also, FLUDD's cool although I agree that it doesn't mesh with Mario's typical 'training wheels' style. Then again neither does his Smash 4 incarnation due to it being very good with plenty of useful tools

 

[splat]

To those interested, Nintendo Life published the results of their own ballot in which their readers could have voted.

The results are:

Spoiler

• #10 - King K. Rool
• #09 - Simon Belmont
• #08 - Shantae
• #07 - Skull Kid
• #06 - Waluigi
• #05 - An ARMS fighter
• #04 - Bomberman
• #03 - Sora
• #02 - Shovel Knight
• #01 - Krystal and Inkling (tie)

Keep in mind that Nintendo Life is only a small part of the Smash fanbase: only those who are 'hardcore Nintendo fan' read up on Nintendo news, the 'casual' fans (who make up a large part of the playerbase) don't. Smash 4 sold 8,7 million copies on 3DS alone, the poll managed 14K votes (of which some might even be rigged, see Krystal).
Ask the younger part of the playerbase and you might get a ton of Steve (Minecraft) votes, etc.

I think the results are interesting, but don't really say too much about what the entire fanbase wants.

Those are some seriously interesting results. How Krystal remains this popular after all this time is beyond me, but I'm happy to see it.

From the article:
"[We] found out that some cunning voters (mostly those not signed into the site!) were so passionate about the character that they tried to pull a fast one and "rig" their votes - cheeky! [...] As a matter of fact, Krystal actually ranked in around #20 - #25 when we checked into the voting."

She is hardly popular among the larger audience, it's just that the hacker named fourchan can't play fair. Sad!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Keep in mind that Nintendo Life is only a small part of the Smash fanbase: only those who are 'hardcore Nintendo fan' read up on Nintendo news, the 'casual' fans (who make up a large part of the playerbase) don't. Smash 4 sold 8,7 million copies on 3DS alone, the poll managed 14K votes (of which some might even be rigged, see Krystal).
Ask the younger part of the playerbase and you might get a ton of Steve (Minecraft) votes, etc.

I think the results are interesting, but don't really say too much about what the entire fanbase wants.


From the article:
"[We] found out that some cunning voters (mostly those not signed into the site!) were so passionate about the character that they tried to pull a fast one and "rig" their votes - cheeky! [...] As a matter of fact, Krystal actually ranked in around #20 - #25 when we checked into the voting."

She is hardly popular among the larger audience, it's just that the hacker named fourchan can't play fair. Sad!

This isn't the first time I heard of Krystal fans rigging fan polls tbh

 

[Zerp]

Speaking of rigging ballots...

Spoiler: Baseless Speculation

What if heavy voter fraud on the original Smash ballot disqualified a character and all the characters we thought would get in actually had more votes than Bayonetta but also had way too many people cheating on them, and Bayonetta simply got the most votes out of the non-cheating cast? Wouldn't that just be depressingly hilarious?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Keep in mind that Nintendo Life is only a small part of the Smash fanbase: only those who are 'hardcore Nintendo fan' read up on Nintendo news, the 'casual' fans (who make up a large part of the playerbase) don't. Smash 4 sold 8,7 million copies on 3DS alone, the poll managed 14K votes (of which some might even be rigged, see Krystal).
Ask the younger part of the playerbase and you might get a ton of Steve (Minecraft) votes, etc.

I think the results are interesting, but don't really say too much about what the entire fanbase wants.

We already have an indication of the type of character that is popular among the silent majority of the Smash fanbase and Bayonetta certainly doesn't fit the type of character that appeals to little children given her franchise isn't even remotely popular among kids.

 

[Deleted member]

To those interested, Nintendo Life published the results of their own ballot in which their readers could have voted.

The results are:

Spoiler

• #10 - King K. Rool
• #09 - Simon Belmont
• #08 - Shantae
• #07 - Skull Kid
• #06 - Waluigi
• #05 - An ARMS fighter
• #04 - Bomberman
• #03 - Sora
• #02 - Shovel Knight
• #01 - Inkling

Fixed for accuracy.
Krystal wasn't legitimate.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Speaking of rigging ballots...

Spoiler: Baseless Speculation

What if heavy voter fraud on the original Smash ballot disqualified a character and all the characters we thought would get in actually had more votes than Bayonetta but also had way too many people cheating on them, and Bayonetta simply got the most votes out of the non-cheating cast? Wouldn't that just be depressingly hilarious?

I think there was a source gaming article that mentioned Sakurai DID notice fraud, but would discard the frauded votes.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

To those interested, Nintendo Life published the results of their own ballot in which their readers could have voted.

The results are:

Spoiler

• #10 - King K. Rool
• #09 - Simon Belmont
• #08 - Shantae
• #07 - Skull Kid
• #06 - Waluigi
• #05 - An ARMS fighter
• #04 - Bomberman
• #03 - Sora
• #02 - Shovel Knight
• #01 - Krystal and Inkling (tie)

It's a damn shame that no matter how much noise there is, Skull Kid will never be a playable character in Smash. Especially because of his lack of relevance in the Zelda franchise lately (Hyrule Warriors is just a spinoff)

At least I'm grateful enough for the Assist Trophy.

 

[Luminario]

It's a damn shame that no matter how much noise there is, Skull Kid will never be a playable character in Smash. Especially because of his lack of relevance in the Zelda franchise lately (Hyrule Warriors is just a spinoff)

At least I'm grateful enough for the Assist Trophy.

They gotta change his AT attack though, it's not even remotely helpful. Have him curse like Ashley or drop a small moon or something.

 

[Curious Villager]

They gotta change his AT attack though, it's not even remotely helpful

According to one of the tips, that's apparently kind of the point. He was designed to hinder everyone, including the summoner.

I mean, if they wanted to go with an Assist Trophy like that, it might work to make it so that it hinders your opponents worse than it does for you. Kind of like an opposite of Xerneas and/or Victini. (whichever one did a similar thing like that)

 

[Luminario]

According to one of the tips, that's apparently kind of the point. He was designed to hinder everyone, including the summoner.

I mean, if they wanted to go with an Assist Trophy like that, it might work to make it so that it hinders your opponents worse than it does for you. Kind of like an opposite of Xerneas and/or Victini. (whichever one did a similar thing like that)

I feel that's rather bad design though because (besides the one where he turns everyone invisible) it's just quite irritating. It's the same with Palkia too. This isn't to say AT's who affect everyone are bad, as Nightmare, Togepi's Smokescreen, and Devil are still pretty fun, just that those two really take away from that fun. It's just like stage hazards, some really add to the fun while others take it away.
Making him a reverse Xerneas would work well, but I'll change my previous statement about him not being helpful in that I don't have an issue with him cursing everyone, just the effects of the curses. He could make everyone small or give everyone a flower head instead of messing with the screen or controls.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Speaking of rigging ballots...

Spoiler: Baseless Speculation

What if heavy voter fraud on the original Smash ballot disqualified a character and all the characters we thought would get in actually had more votes than Bayonetta but also had way too many people cheating on them, and Bayonetta simply got the most votes out of the non-cheating cast? Wouldn't that just be depressingly hilarious?

Interesting thought. I always just assumed that Bayonetta just had the most passionate few fans that would vote for her a ridiculous amount of times each day. When the ballot was still going on Bayonetta seemed nowhere near one of the top characters we were speculating could win the ballot.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I imagine Sakurai had a method of removing voter fraud.

Bayo probably won, fraud or no fraud.

 

[FunAtParties]

Please no more ballot talk.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Skull Kid is a troll anyway. He loves messing with people. It fits his personality perfectly, the way he's an AT. He's even more deadly due to the Mask, of course, becoming malicious. As annoying as he is, it's still accurate enough.

 

[Delzethin]

Are people really so disheartened by the lack of Smash at E3 that they're convinced everything we've heard up until now no longer matters? Does this feel like a knee-jerk reaction to anyone else?

I believe the bananas are purely a balance change.

Diddy having two bananas was OP back in Brawl. Plus we can spawn more bananas can we not?


As for gliding? Same I think. Gliding itself isn't very intensive and Pit and Dark Pit both had files for it. It was probably a balance change since it was abused big time by Meta Knight in Brawl.

Yeah, those two changes in particular were definitely for balancing. As cool of a concept as gliding was, it was too abusable, handing an extremely potent tool for movement, recovery, and keep-away over to just three characters.

I imagine Sakurai had a method of removing voter fraud.

Bayo probably won, fraud or no fraud.

More or less. I think what they did was they rounded up most of the higher end vote getters, then decided who among them would be the best choice given the circumstances. With how inspired Bayonetta's moveset is and how true to her games it feels, it's not a stretch to guess her character concept won out over others who were also considered.

At least, it makes more sense from a designer's standpoint, to ensure you end up with someone interesting. A straight vote where first place automatically got in would've been too abusable, and they'd have known that.

How Krystal remains this popular after all this time is beyond me, but I'm happy to see it.

I imagine it has more to do with the genwunners who made her their scapegoat for "ruining Star Fox" quieting down. She was strongly supported for Brawl, back in the day.

Although that high is a little unusual. Maybe Jordan pointed people toward it, or something.

 

[FunAtParties]

Are people really so disheartened by the lack of Smash at E3 that they're convinced everything we've heard up until now no longer matters? Does this feel like a knee-jerk reaction to anyone else?


Yeah, those two changes in particular were definitely for balancing. As cool of a concept as gliding was, it was too abusable, handing an extremely potent tool for movement, recovery, and keep-away over to just three characters.


More or less. I think what they did was they rounded up most of the higher end vote getters, then decided who among them would be the best choice given the circumstances. With how inspired Bayonetta's moveset is and how true to her games it feels, it's not a stretch to guess her character concept won out over others who were also considered.

At least, it makes more sense from a designer's standpoint, to ensure you end up with someone interesting. A straight vote where first place automatically got in would've been too abusable, and they'd have known that.


I imagine it has more to do with the genwunners who made her their scapegoat for "ruining Star Fox" quieting down. She was strongly supported for Brawl, back in the day.

Although that high is a little unusual. Maybe Jordan pointed people toward it, or something.

It was already found out Krystal's votes were rigged or something, unfortunately. I like to see her do well, but I don't see the point of falsifying a poll to make it appear that she is.

 

[splat]

Please no more ballot talk.

Why no ballot talk?

While I personally don't really like Bayonetta's inclusion (I mean, her inclusion was done well and is very true to her own games, but she - to me - does not fit with Nintendo's classic bold, colorful games (the characters in my signature may be an indication of what I'm talking about)) it does give an indication of what we could expect: it would be insane if Nintendo would not use the Ballot results for any upcoming Smash games.

 

[FunAtParties]

Why no ballot talk?

While I personally don't really like Bayonetta's inclusion (I mean, her inclusion was done well and is very true to her own games, but she - to me - does not fit with Nintendo's classic bold, colorful games (the characters in my signature may be an indication of what I'm talking about)) it does give an indication of what we could expect: it would be insane if Nintendo would not use the Ballot results for any upcoming Smash games.

The discussion never goes anywhere, and tends to end up in in passive aggressive, I-know-better-than-you BS. On one side there's a camp that believes Bayonetta really won, on the other side there's people that believe the results were predetermined or cherry-picked. At this point, everyone's minds are made up on what they believe and no one wants to hear each other out, me included. It's better if we just let it go.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't like Bayonetta either, but at least you don't have to purchase her. Sadly, even if you don't have her, that doesn't prevent players from using her against you online.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I don't like Bayonetta either, but at least you don't have to purchase her. Sadly, even if you don't have her, that doesn't prevent players from using her against you online.

If you're part of any Smash FGC, however, you are absolutely pressured into purchasing her. You don't have a proper set-up otherwise and people just won't practice on your copy of Smash because of it. There are many who really didn't want to buy certain DLC characters just to stay relevant, myself included. Few things make me more bitter than having to pay money for characters I really don't even like.

The other reason I think people were blindsided with the Ballot is that it never once said that we'd only be getting just one character as the winner, so that shock of just Bayonetta and not Bayonetta and [insert character here] is what really threw people for a loop and made them start calling out Sakurai shenanigans. I'm just hoping the Ballot results really are going to be used in picking future characters. I'd certainly think so if they won't make the results of the ballot public, anyway.

 

[KniteBlargh]

If you're part of any Smash FGC, however, you are absolutely pressured into purchasing her.

This. No one even ended up using her here, but I still felt I had to purchase her. I got over the fact that she wasn't a character I personally wanted to see in Smash since her inclusion made a lot of people happy, but I wish someone else had been willing to spend the money! Haha.

Are people really so disheartened by the lack of Smash at E3 that they're convinced everything we've heard up until now no longer matters?

In my case, I didn't expect anything by the time E3 came around, but since nothing was mentioned, I'm just trying not to think one way or another as to whether the next game in line is a port, reboot, going to be shown this year, or put off for quite a while; I've found that over-thinking in this regard has been hurting my enjoyment of the game we have right now. Of course, I still have my want list, but I think I'm just going to let myself be pleasantly surprised when something does finally turn up.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

I wonder why they never released the ballot's results. Fear of showing that mostly Third Party characters won ?

 

[Deleted member]

I wonder why they never released the ballot's results. Fear of showing that mostly Third Party characters won ?

- Keeping surprise for the next Smash
- Prevent loads of negativity to happen
- Licencing issues

Among other likely reasons.

 

[Megadoomer]

I wonder why they never released the ballot's results. Fear of showing that mostly Third Party characters won ?

I can think of two reasons - it would divide the fanbase even more than the ballot itself already did (could you imagine how angry/upset people would be if K. Rool would have won the ballot if a few people had voted for Dixie instead of him?), and a lot of the characters that did well are likely being saved for the next Smash game. Imagine if the ESRB leak from Smash 4 happened before development even began - that would suck all of the energy and excitement out of speculating.

 

[UserKev]

The ballot should have been against non Nintendo characters to begin with. Imagine how massive the potential could have been. It was a chance for characters that couldn't appeared in enough games like Lyn.

This is why I lost some respect for Sakurai. Sakurai has major suck ups that ignore his biasness.

 

[Curious Villager]

I wonder why they never released the ballot's results. Fear of showing that mostly Third Party characters won ?

The Smash community was already incredibly bitter when we only knew of one character winning the ballot and it was one most of them (the vocal ones at least) didn't even bank on, imagine if we knew the full results.

Plus if we knew the full results then a lot of people would be expecting, like, all of the top ten to make it into the next Smash and if Sakurai where to dare, say, include the 26th place because he saw something more interesting in them than, say, the character ranked 7th, then people would be throwing an uproar on that too. It's a bit too limiting and too much of a headache for the dev's to deal with.

At least I'd imagine so...

 

[Schnee117]

People here really do love their arbitrary limitations huh?

It was a chance for characters that couldn't appeared in enough games like Lyn.

You mean the Lyn that has a pre-determined role in the game?
She never had a chance because of her AT status in Smash 4.

 

[Megadoomer]

The ballot should have been against non Nintendo characters to begin with. Imagine how massive the potential could have been. It was a chance for characters that couldn't appeared in enough games like Lyn.

This is why I lost some respect for Sakurai. Sakurai has major suck ups that ignore his biasness.

Wouldn't doing something like that severely limit the potential?

Plus, any characters who did well in the ballot have an even bigger chance to appear in a future game, especially if they're Nintendo characters - Nintendo characters wouldn't have anywhere near the amount of barriers to being included compared to third party characters.

 

[Delzethin]

I wonder why they never released the ballot's results. Fear of showing that mostly Third Party characters won ?

It's probably because of how many people would raise torches and pitchforks if the details weren't exactly what they expected or wanted to see. Odds are, it wasn't as simple as a straight vote, but much of the community is still convinced it must have been.

Or perhaps they aren't finished using it yet...

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

Ballot talk, huh?

Personally, I would be fine with them releasing the results- I never believed the characters I voted for would get in anyway. That doesn't mean I think they should- everyone makes the point that parts of our community are a bit volatile, and showing the results would raise a lot of outrage and tension over expectations of certain characters making it in over others.

Now as much as I think they should keep the results for considering future newcomers, I think we shouldn't dwell on the ballot too much. It happened roughly 2 years ago, and times have changed- there's a good chance that certain characters will get more or less support based on whatever new games Nintendo (and to an extent 3rd parties) will be releasing. I can see the ballot results becoming somewhat obsolete by the time they'll be coming along in the development process for Smash 5.

 

[FunAtParties]

People here really do love their arbitrary limitations huh?



You mean the Lyn that has a pre-determined role in the game?
She never had a chance because of her AT status in Smash 4.

To be fair a lot of people believed the ballot would circumvent that. There was a whole social thread made supporting characters that weren't playable, but already in Smash.

If you're part of any Smash FGC, however, you are absolutely pressured into purchasing her. You don't have a proper set-up otherwise and people just won't practice on your copy of Smash because of it. There are many who really didn't want to buy certain DLC characters just to stay relevant, myself included. Few things make me more bitter than having to pay money for characters I really don't even like.

The other reason I think people were blindsided with the Ballot is that it never once said that we'd only be getting just one character as the winner, so that shock of just Bayonetta and not Bayonetta and [insert character here] is what really threw people for a loop and made them start calling out Sakurai shenanigans. I'm just hoping the Ballot results really are going to be used in picking future characters. I'd certainly think so if they won't make the results of the ballot public, anyway.

That's what bugged me the most, I would've loved to protest with my wallet, but you cant exactly keep up with a Bayo/Cloud heavy meta if you have no idea how they work.

 

[Schnee117]

To be fair a lot of people believed the ballot would circumvent that.

There was no reason to believe that beyond wanting to be disappointed.

There was a whole social thread made supporting characters that weren't playable, but already in Smash.

The whole purpose of that group initially was so people could keep supporting their character without others coming in and redundantly saying the character had no chance due to their pre-determined role. I'm fairly certain that most people there were aware that their characters had no chance in the Ballot so it was about the next Smash title instead.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If you're part of any Smash FGC, however, you are absolutely pressured into purchasing her. You don't have a proper set-up otherwise and people just won't practice on your copy of Smash because of it. There are many who really didn't want to buy certain DLC characters just to stay relevant, myself included. Few things make me more bitter than having to pay money for characters I really don't even like.

On my end, I never purchased Lucas, Ryu, or Bayonetta. I saw very little need for Lucas, since Ness gets most of his special moves now. In regards to Ryu, he's a potential controller killer with his unique mechanics.